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Re: [ksurfschool] Woody Board

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  • Kitepower
    There are a couple of things that are not helping you, one is the C-Quad, while it is a pretty good kite for buggying they are lousy for kiteboarding, unless
    Message 1 of 14 , Jul 4, 2002
      There are a couple of things that are not helping you, one is the C-Quad, while it is a pretty good kite for buggying they are lousy for kiteboarding, unless you are prepared to use them well powered up so that you do not have to move it around to get power, they work best when you can just park it and edge against it. Make sure it has flotation on it because if you drop it, it will sink very fast!
      This will help you more though, make you board wider!
      The light wind Underground trays I use are Fridge Door 40cm wide x 1.38M long and the Smorgasboard is 1.48M long 44cm wide, make your board somewhre between 38cm and 42cm and you should notice a big difference.
      Rails should not be like a surfboard at all, they need to knife sharp like a wakeboard.snowboard, you could even just use a router with a bevel cutter to make the rail and just sand it enough so that the rail is not too thin and fragile.
      Have fun!
      Cya and
      Goodwinds
      Steve McCormack
      http://www.kitepower.com.au
      open 7 days, every week.
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: kite_hoser
      To: ksurfschool@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Friday, July 05, 2002 1:08 AM
      Subject: [ksurfschool] Woody Board


      Hi,
      A friend of mine made a Cedar bi-directional board as his first
      board. We had it out last weekend in 20km/hr winds at Lake Erie.
      Was the first time we tried to kitesurf although we've been kite
      buggying for a year now. We got up on the board no problem first
      time, planed ok but upwind was very hard. Did reaches of about 200
      yards. Kite was an 8.5 cquad. The board lost it's planing when
      trying to turn up wind and it would start to bog through the water
      instead of planing. The edge is carved down from the top to a rail
      on the bottom. Should the rail be in the center, or the top of the
      board, or is the bottom rail the way to go? Also, can someone give
      me some dimensions (length and width) of a board that would cut
      upwind and plane a bit easier? This board is only 14.5" wide, about
      5' long and 1.7" thick Is it too small? Or is it lack of
      experience? Thanks in advance.
      Good Winds from Canada
      P.S. Posted a few pics in the photo section of the board.


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    • Hung Vu
      Cedar sounds like a very good wood for kiteboard... 1.7 thickness is too thick I think. Most kiteboards are thinner than 3/4 . Without board rocker, a
      Message 2 of 14 , Jul 4, 2002
        Cedar sounds like a very good wood for kiteboard...

        1.7" thickness is too thick I think. Most kiteboards are thinner than
        3/4".

        Without board rocker, a top-down edge (rail at the bottom) is harder to
        plan and getting out of the "submarine state".

        Neutral edge (rail at the middle) is probably a better start for
        beginner on woody board.

        Once you get efficient at edging and going upwind, go bottom-up edge
        (rail at the top of the board). It's very loose, fast and lively; you
        can land your jump side-way like magic (no other kiteboard I know -
        including snowboard - can land jump side way like this).

        P.S., C-Quad may not be the best kite for kitesurfing due to its
        variable power characteristics (however it's a very fast and probably
        one of the best kiteskiing kites though :-)

        P.P.S., Expect at least a few sessions before you can go upwind in
        kitesurfing.

        Hung.

        kite_hoser wrote:
        >
        > Hi,
        > A friend of mine made a Cedar bi-directional board as his first
        > board. We had it out last weekend in 20km/hr winds at Lake Erie.
        > Was the first time we tried to kitesurf although we've been kite
        > buggying for a year now. We got up on the board no problem first
        > time, planed ok but upwind was very hard. Did reaches of about 200
        > yards. Kite was an 8.5 cquad. The board lost it's planing when
        > trying to turn up wind and it would start to bog through the water
        > instead of planing. The edge is carved down from the top to a rail
        > on the bottom. Should the rail be in the center, or the top of the
        > board, or is the bottom rail the way to go? Also, can someone give
        > me some dimensions (length and width) of a board that would cut
        > upwind and plane a bit easier? This board is only 14.5" wide, about
        > 5' long and 1.7" thick Is it too small? Or is it lack of
        > experience? Thanks in advance.
        > Good Winds from Canada
        > P.S. Posted a few pics in the photo section of the board.
        >
        >
        > If you are new to kitesurfing, please visit
        > http://www.KitesurfingSchool.org/faqs.htm for the answers
        > to the most frequently asked questions.
        >
        > To unsubscribe, please send an email to ksurfschool-unsubscribe@egroups.com
        > To subscribe, please send an email to ksurfschool-subscribe@egroups.com
        >
        >
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      • kite_hoser
        Thanks so much for the replies guys, I agree wholeheartedly that the board is too small. We thought the rails the way we made them would ve worked better but
        Message 3 of 14 , Jul 4, 2002
          Thanks so much for the replies guys, I agree wholeheartedly that the
          board is too small. We thought the rails the way we made them
          would've worked better but obviously not. You're right Hung about
          the "getting out of submarine stage". Hard to get it up on a plane
          again once it does this and also you both have the same views on the
          size of board. As for using cquads, well i know everyone will
          disagree but we spend alot of time buggying and skiing (land
          traction) and the cquads are amazing kites. We can all go right into
          the wind for large distances with these kites and I have a few foils
          that I could not get within' breathing distance of the upwind of the
          cquads. The foils luff and curl up, pop back open in the power zone
          when trying to go that far upwind. In gusts, these problems are even
          more exagerrated with foils. So, having a quiver of land kites and
          water specific kites is not at all cost feasable for us. The cquads
          like the water well enough. We launch from sandbar in the water
          where you can stand and then it's a matter of not crashing the kite
          out in deeper water. Exactly the same as using a land foil in the
          water which a lot of people do in our area and get along ok with
          there kites. The advantage we have on them though, is when they do
          crash in water their fun is over until they dry out there kites on
          shore again, which a cquad doesn't have to do. As for the power
          thing, it was unbelieveable. I think for our very first time (none
          of us 3 have any windsurfing or wakeboarding experience at all) we
          did fantastic with that tiny board. If we make another board it will
          be that much better, as well as some more practice and the cquads
          will (have) to work for us. We had pictures taken of us surfing last
          weekend so when i get copies i'll post them up to show how elite
          cquads can be even for new surfers. :-) But please don't think that
          i'm saying anyone can get on a cquad and surf. It's taken us many
          months of land traction activities to really learn our kites. If
          you're going to start from scratch with surfing, obviously the cquad
          would slow your learning curve down greatly because of the time it
          takes to learn these kites to get the proper depower, powering up and
          anti luffing technique happenning.
          Good winds from Canada and thanks for the help with the board input,
          muchly appreciated!!!!!
          Buggy Tyrant
          P.S. Cquads Rule!!!!!!!!!! :-)
        • Kitepower
          Good stuff! C-Quads can be used on the water as I said, Kane Hartill who used to be sponsored by Peter Lynn used them in the early days of kiteboarding 2 years
          Message 4 of 14 , Jul 4, 2002
            Good stuff! C-Quads can be used on the water as I said, Kane Hartill who
            used to be sponsored by Peter Lynn used them in the early days of
            kiteboarding 2 years ago, he could do amazing stuff on them, and he very
            rarely put them into the water.
            I do not know what type of foils your friends have but there are plenty that
            can match a c-quad now, and in the right hands, they can be re-launched off
            the water, if you are quick, but even when wet a modern foil will fly and
            will dry out quite quickly.
            Each to their own, but no kite absolutely rules!! :-))
            Cya and
            Goodwinds
            Steve McCormack
            http://www.kitepower.com.au
            mailto:sydney@...
            Open 7 days
            126 Beach St, Coogee, Sydney, Australia 2034
            Phone +61293157894

            -----Original Message-----
            From: kite_hoser [mailto:sir_goth@...]
            Sent: 05 July, 2002 3:07 PM
            To: ksurfschool@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [ksurfschool] Re: Woody Board


            Thanks so much for the replies guys, I agree wholeheartedly that the
            board is too small. We thought the rails the way we made them
            would've worked better but obviously not. You're right Hung about
            the "getting out of submarine stage". Hard to get it up on a plane
            again once it does this and also you both have the same views on the
            size of board. As for using cquads, well i know everyone will
            disagree but we spend alot of time buggying and skiing (land
            traction) and the cquads are amazing kites. We can all go right into
            the wind for large distances with these kites and I have a few foils
            that I could not get within' breathing distance of the upwind of the
            cquads. The foils luff and curl up, pop back open in the power zone
            when trying to go that far upwind. In gusts, these problems are even
            more exagerrated with foils. So, having a quiver of land kites and
            water specific kites is not at all cost feasable for us. The cquads
            like the water well enough. We launch from sandbar in the water
            where you can stand and then it's a matter of not crashing the kite
            out in deeper water. Exactly the same as using a land foil in the
            water which a lot of people do in our area and get along ok with
            there kites. The advantage we have on them though, is when they do
            crash in water their fun is over until they dry out there kites on
            shore again, which a cquad doesn't have to do. As for the power
            thing, it was unbelieveable. I think for our very first time (none
            of us 3 have any windsurfing or wakeboarding experience at all) we
            did fantastic with that tiny board. If we make another board it will
            be that much better, as well as some more practice and the cquads
            will (have) to work for us. We had pictures taken of us surfing last
            weekend so when i get copies i'll post them up to show how elite
            cquads can be even for new surfers. :-) But please don't think that
            i'm saying anyone can get on a cquad and surf. It's taken us many
            months of land traction activities to really learn our kites. If
            you're going to start from scratch with surfing, obviously the cquad
            would slow your learning curve down greatly because of the time it
            takes to learn these kites to get the proper depower, powering up and
            anti luffing technique happenning.
            Good winds from Canada and thanks for the help with the board input,
            muchly appreciated!!!!!
            Buggy Tyrant
            P.S. Cquads Rule!!!!!!!!!! :-)


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          • Denisesewa@aol.com
            Just a suggestion An inexpencive way to experiment with board design might be to use Plywood, for example ,to create rocker simply cut two pieces half the
            Message 5 of 14 , Jul 4, 2002
              Just a suggestion
              An inexpencive way to experiment with board design might be to use Plywood,
              for example ,to create rocker simply cut two pieces half the thickness you
              want to the out line you want , support both ends of the bottom piece with
              wood equal in thickness to the amount of rocker you want , apply glue to top
              surface and lay the second piece of ply on top, weight the center and put
              shims under the board to create the progression of the rocker, then clamp the
              whole thing as much as possible distributing the clamping pressure with
              scraps of wood above and below, not only will this produce the desired rocker
              but will also make plyywood extreemly rigid, the best inexpecive glue to use
              is "ProBond" made by Elmers ( believe it or not) it is imperviouse to water
              extreemly strong and expands as it dries to fill in voids and its availible
              at home depot and hardware stores.
              I think once a good design is acheived it would be easy to make a light
              wieght semi hollow version by using 4mm ply skins with a frame work between
              using cedar or better yet spruce, all of these will take a shape by bending
              easily and once bonded together become rigid.( I would probably use epoxy for
              this one but the probond is just about as good)
              Having built several sailboats , three kayaks and a cedar strip-plank canoe
              I have found these methods to work well and can see no reason they wouldnt
              work just as well for kitesurfing boards.
              Anyway, food for thought.
              By the way,
              I finally decided on Concept air kites and purchased two "new waves" sizes, 6
              and 9 meters, should be arriving next week, I cant wait to get wet!! :)
              Denise

              for a bit more about me go to >>>>>>
              http://hometown.aol.com/denisesewa/index.html


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • kite_hoser
              Hi again, just a tad confused about this rail. I saw a brunoti the other day up close and the rail was on the bottom (top down edge). Is the reason for this
              Message 6 of 14 , Jul 6, 2002
                Hi again,
                just a tad confused about this rail. I saw a brunoti the other day
                up close and the rail was on the bottom (top down edge). Is the
                reason for this because the board has rocker and/or the board is so
                much thinner? Also, one of the reason's the woody board was made so
                thick, is that there was ample room to carve(sand) rocker at both
                ends. So our board (even though it's hard to tell with the pictures
                i posted) does have rocker. So since it's a woody should the rail
                still be in the center or if it has ample rocker should it be more
                like a manufactured board with rail on the bottom? Don't know if
                this makes any sense, any advice would be muchly appreciated. Thanks
                Good winds from Canada :-)

                > Without board rocker, a top-down edge (rail at the bottom) is
                harder to
                > plane and getting out of the "submarine state".
                >
                > Neutral edge (rail at the middle) is probably a better start for
                > beginner on woody board.
                >
                > Once you get efficient at edging and going upwind, go bottom-up edge
                > (rail at the top of the board). It's very loose, fast and lively;
                you
                > can land your jump side-way like magic (no other kiteboard I know -
                > including snowboard - can land jump side way like this).
                >
                > Hung.
              • hink_trent
                ... So since it s a woody should the rail ... Thanks ... All of the manufactured wake-style boards I have seen have the edge on the bottom of the board and a
                Message 7 of 14 , Jul 6, 2002
                  --- In ksurfschool@y..., "kite_hoser" <sir_goth@h...> wrote:
                  > Hi again,
                  > just a tad confused about this rail. I saw a brunoti the other day
                  > up close and the rail was on the bottom (top down edge).

                  So since it's a woody should the rail
                  > still be in the center or if it has ample rocker should it be more
                  > like a manufactured board with rail on the bottom? Don't know if
                  > this makes any sense, any advice would be muchly appreciated.
                  Thanks
                  > Good winds from Canada :-)
                  >

                  All of the manufactured wake-style boards I have seen have the edge
                  on the bottom of the board and a curve into the top surface. on
                  directionals and some twintips they put more of a curve on the bottom
                  edge to get a looser ride because the fins are doing more of the work
                  keeping the board on track (just my opinion).

                  I think you should build another, larger version of your current
                  board. I made my first board 5'5" x 18" wide x 3/4" thick (glass,ply
                  and foam).

                  I find that this large wide board takes much less power to ride than
                  smaller boards because it planes with less power. for this reason I
                  think it is also also is much more forgiving as long as you are not
                  overpowered. when I find myself getting overpowered on my large
                  board, I can just go in and grab a smaller board without changing
                  kites.
                • Kitepower
                  Have a look at as many of the latest tray/wake style boards, as you can. You will notice one common theme, thin rails with the edge at the bottom surface of
                  Message 8 of 14 , Jul 6, 2002
                    Have a look at as many of the latest tray/wake style boards, as you can. You will notice one common theme, thin rails with the edge at the bottom surface of the board. I'm not sure why Hung makes a point of being abe to land a jump sideways, but you can do that if you want to with this rail shape anyway, but you stand a greater chance of losing control and having the board slide out from under you if you do not get an edge/end in first.
                    Kiteboarding is about jumping for most people, a sharp thin rail helps the board bite and load up, essential for getting maximum air.
                    The rails are rounder on surfboards to make them transition from one turn to another in a more flowing style suited to wave riding, when the board is powered by the wave only.
                    Kiteboarding is very much like wakeboarding behind a boat, except you need an edge, to exert and maintain or vary, as conditions and the tricks/jumping you are doing dictate, tension on the kites lines (not against the pull of the boat, which is constant), and to enable you to maintain that edge/line tension in well powered up conditions, which will give you max boost into the air (and upwind ability).
                    You use the sharp cutting edges/rails and their ability to load the lines of your kite, in a synchronised way to get air and then you control your body into the air, maintaining the your orientation to a safe landing, all while using the contollability of the kite to land soft and smooth, immediately upon landing you use those sharp rails/edges to exert tension back on your kite lines, so you are back in control.
                    Kiteboarding is a synergy between the riders mind and emotions/spirit, and the kite, its lines, and the edge-ability of the board.
                    Above all have fun!
                    Cya and
                    Goodwinds
                    Steve McCormack
                    http://www.kitepower.com.au
                    open 7 days, every week.

                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: kite_hoser
                    To: ksurfschool@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Sunday, July 07, 2002 12:32 AM
                    Subject: [ksurfschool] Re: Woody Board


                    Hi again,
                    just a tad confused about this rail. I saw a brunoti the other day
                    up close and the rail was on the bottom (top down edge). Is the
                    reason for this because the board has rocker and/or the board is so
                    much thinner? Also, one of the reason's the woody board was made so
                    thick, is that there was ample room to carve(sand) rocker at both
                    ends. So our board (even though it's hard to tell with the pictures
                    i posted) does have rocker. So since it's a woody should the rail
                    still be in the center or if it has ample rocker should it be more
                    like a manufactured board with rail on the bottom? Don't know if
                    this makes any sense, any advice would be muchly appreciated. Thanks
                    Good winds from Canada :-)

                    > Without board rocker, a top-down edge (rail at the bottom) is
                    harder to
                    > plane and getting out of the "submarine state".
                    >
                    > Neutral edge (rail at the middle) is probably a better start for
                    > beginner on woody board.
                    >
                    > Once you get efficient at edging and going upwind, go bottom-up edge
                    > (rail at the top of the board). It's very loose, fast and lively;
                    you
                    > can land your jump side-way like magic (no other kiteboard I know -
                    > including snowboard - can land jump side way like this).
                    >
                    > Hung.



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                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • ex_cpe
                    ... you can. You will notice one common theme, thin rails with the edge at the bottom surface of the board. I m not sure why Hung makes a point of being abe to
                    Message 9 of 14 , Jul 7, 2002
                      --- In ksurfschool@y..., "Kitepower" <sydney@k...> wrote:
                      > Have a look at as many of the latest tray/wake style boards, as
                      you can. You will notice one common theme, thin rails with the
                      edge at the bottom surface of the board. I'm not sure why Hung
                      makes a point of being abe to land a jump sideways, but you can
                      do that if you want to with this rail shape anyway, but you stand a
                      greater chance of losing control and having the board slide out
                      from under you if you do not get an edge/end in first.
                      > Kiteboarding is about jumping for most people, a sharp thin
                      rail helps the board bite and load up, essential for getting
                      maximum air.
                      > The rails are rounder on surfboards to make them transition
                      from one turn to another in a more flowing style suited to wave
                      riding, when the board is powered by the wave only.
                      > Kiteboarding is very much like wakeboarding behind a boat,
                      except you need an edge, to exert and maintain or vary, as
                      conditions and the tricks/jumping you are doing dictate, tension
                      on the kites lines (not against the pull of the boat, which is
                      constant), and to enable you to maintain that edge/line tension in
                      well powered up conditions, which will give you max boost into
                      the air (and upwind ability).
                      > You use the sharp cutting edges/rails and their ability to load
                      the lines of your kite, in a synchronised way to get air and then
                      you control your body into the air, maintaining the your orientation
                      to a safe landing, all while using the contollability of the kite to
                      land soft and smooth, immediately upon landing you use those
                      sharp rails/edges to exert tension back on your kite lines, so you
                      are back in control.
                      > Kiteboarding is a synergy between the riders mind and
                      emotions/spirit, and the kite, its lines, and the edge-ability of the
                      board.
                      > Above all have fun!
                      > Cya and
                      > Goodwinds
                      > Steve McCormack

                      Well stated! You compacted more in those few paragraphs than
                      three how-to vids I've seen. ....perhaps it's time to buy some
                      16MM, eh?

                      Jim
                    • kite_hoser
                      Thanks so much for all the opinions. I am starting a new larger/thinner board today. It should work much better. Will keep you all posted as to the results
                      Message 10 of 14 , Jul 7, 2002
                        Thanks so much for all the opinions. I am starting a new
                        larger/thinner board today. It should work much better. Will keep
                        you all posted as to the results (or keep bugging you all with more
                        questions) :-). Thanks again and Good Winds from Canada.
                      • Kitepower
                        Thanks Jim When I re-read that there are few words that I would add here and there, but real synergy is what kiteboarding is, I think that is why it just grabs
                        Message 11 of 14 , Jul 7, 2002
                          Thanks Jim

                          When I re-read that there are few words that I would add here and there, but real synergy is what kiteboarding is, I think that is why it just grabs people and it changes their lives forever. Experiencing synergy between yourself and nature or with other people is one of life's finest things IMO, and money cannot buy it!! :-))

                          Due to an old war wound (motorcycle crash) I am increasingly unable to kiteboard, but my aim is to get a decent video camera and make instructional/promo, top rider vids, and stuff to make people laugh, look out for a character I've invented called "Keiff wiff da teef" aka "the God of ugly people".
                          Sorry in advance!! :-)
                          Cya and
                          Goodwinds
                          Steve McCormack
                          http://www.kitepower.com.au
                          open 7 days, every week.
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: ex_cpe
                          To: ksurfschool@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Sunday, July 07, 2002 9:19 PM
                          Subject: [ksurfschool] Re: Woody Board


                          --- In ksurfschool@y..., "Kitepower" <sydney@k...> wrote:
                          > Have a look at as many of the latest tray/wake style boards, as
                          you can. You will notice one common theme, thin rails with the
                          edge at the bottom surface of the board. I'm not sure why Hung
                          makes a point of being abe to land a jump sideways, but you can
                          do that if you want to with this rail shape anyway, but you stand a
                          greater chance of losing control and having the board slide out
                          from under you if you do not get an edge/end in first.
                          > Kiteboarding is about jumping for most people, a sharp thin
                          rail helps the board bite and load up, essential for getting
                          maximum air.
                          > The rails are rounder on surfboards to make them transition
                          from one turn to another in a more flowing style suited to wave
                          riding, when the board is powered by the wave only.
                          > Kiteboarding is very much like wakeboarding behind a boat,
                          except you need an edge, to exert and maintain or vary, as
                          conditions and the tricks/jumping you are doing dictate, tension
                          on the kites lines (not against the pull of the boat, which is
                          constant), and to enable you to maintain that edge/line tension in
                          well powered up conditions, which will give you max boost into
                          the air (and upwind ability).
                          > You use the sharp cutting edges/rails and their ability to load
                          the lines of your kite, in a synchronised way to get air and then
                          you control your body into the air, maintaining the your orientation
                          to a safe landing, all while using the contollability of the kite to
                          land soft and smooth, immediately upon landing you use those
                          sharp rails/edges to exert tension back on your kite lines, so you
                          are back in control.
                          > Kiteboarding is a synergy between the riders mind and
                          emotions/spirit, and the kite, its lines, and the edge-ability of the
                          board.
                          > Above all have fun!
                          > Cya and
                          > Goodwinds
                          > Steve McCormack

                          Well stated! You compacted more in those few paragraphs than
                          three how-to vids I've seen. ....perhaps it's time to buy some
                          16MM, eh?

                          Jim




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