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Re: [ksurfschool] Woody Board

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  • Pauric
    http://www.kitesurfingschool.org/board.htm 04 July 2002 16:08 To: ksurfschool@yahoogroups.com cc: Subject: [ksurfschool] Woody Board Hi, A friend of mine made
    Message 1 of 14 , Jul 4, 2002
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      http://www.kitesurfingschool.org/board.htm

      04 July 2002 16:08
      To: ksurfschool@yahoogroups.com
      cc:
      Subject: [ksurfschool] Woody Board

      Hi,
      A friend of mine made a Cedar bi-directional board as his first
      board. We had it out last weekend in 20km/hr winds at Lake Erie.
      Was the first time we tried to kitesurf although we've been kite
      buggying for a year now. We got up on the board no problem first
      time, planed ok but upwind was very hard. Did reaches of about 200
      yards. Kite was an 8.5 cquad. The board lost it's planing when
      trying to turn up wind and it would start to bog through the water
      instead of planing. The edge is carved down from the top to a rail
      on the bottom. Should the rail be in the center, or the top of the
      board, or is the bottom rail the way to go? Also, can someone give
      me some dimensions (length and width) of a board that would cut
      upwind and plane a bit easier? This board is only 14.5" wide, about
      5' long and 1.7" thick Is it too small? Or is it lack of
      experience? Thanks in advance.
      Good Winds from Canada
      P.S. Posted a few pics in the photo section of the board.



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    • kite_hoser
      ... Yes i ve been to that site numerous times, but it doesn t answer my questions specifically and the less is more board is a good place to start but i was
      Message 2 of 14 , Jul 4, 2002
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        --- In ksurfschool@y..., "Pauric" <paurico@p...> wrote:
        > http://www.kitesurfingschool.org/board.htm
        >

        Yes i've been to that site numerous times, but it doesn't answer my
        questions specifically and the "less is more" board is a good place
        to start but i was hoping for some more feedback other than what i've
        read and re-read dozens of times. Thanks anyways, anyone else?
      • Kitepower
        There are a couple of things that are not helping you, one is the C-Quad, while it is a pretty good kite for buggying they are lousy for kiteboarding, unless
        Message 3 of 14 , Jul 4, 2002
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          There are a couple of things that are not helping you, one is the C-Quad, while it is a pretty good kite for buggying they are lousy for kiteboarding, unless you are prepared to use them well powered up so that you do not have to move it around to get power, they work best when you can just park it and edge against it. Make sure it has flotation on it because if you drop it, it will sink very fast!
          This will help you more though, make you board wider!
          The light wind Underground trays I use are Fridge Door 40cm wide x 1.38M long and the Smorgasboard is 1.48M long 44cm wide, make your board somewhre between 38cm and 42cm and you should notice a big difference.
          Rails should not be like a surfboard at all, they need to knife sharp like a wakeboard.snowboard, you could even just use a router with a bevel cutter to make the rail and just sand it enough so that the rail is not too thin and fragile.
          Have fun!
          Cya and
          Goodwinds
          Steve McCormack
          http://www.kitepower.com.au
          open 7 days, every week.
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: kite_hoser
          To: ksurfschool@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Friday, July 05, 2002 1:08 AM
          Subject: [ksurfschool] Woody Board


          Hi,
          A friend of mine made a Cedar bi-directional board as his first
          board. We had it out last weekend in 20km/hr winds at Lake Erie.
          Was the first time we tried to kitesurf although we've been kite
          buggying for a year now. We got up on the board no problem first
          time, planed ok but upwind was very hard. Did reaches of about 200
          yards. Kite was an 8.5 cquad. The board lost it's planing when
          trying to turn up wind and it would start to bog through the water
          instead of planing. The edge is carved down from the top to a rail
          on the bottom. Should the rail be in the center, or the top of the
          board, or is the bottom rail the way to go? Also, can someone give
          me some dimensions (length and width) of a board that would cut
          upwind and plane a bit easier? This board is only 14.5" wide, about
          5' long and 1.7" thick Is it too small? Or is it lack of
          experience? Thanks in advance.
          Good Winds from Canada
          P.S. Posted a few pics in the photo section of the board.


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          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Hung Vu
          Cedar sounds like a very good wood for kiteboard... 1.7 thickness is too thick I think. Most kiteboards are thinner than 3/4 . Without board rocker, a
          Message 4 of 14 , Jul 4, 2002
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            Cedar sounds like a very good wood for kiteboard...

            1.7" thickness is too thick I think. Most kiteboards are thinner than
            3/4".

            Without board rocker, a top-down edge (rail at the bottom) is harder to
            plan and getting out of the "submarine state".

            Neutral edge (rail at the middle) is probably a better start for
            beginner on woody board.

            Once you get efficient at edging and going upwind, go bottom-up edge
            (rail at the top of the board). It's very loose, fast and lively; you
            can land your jump side-way like magic (no other kiteboard I know -
            including snowboard - can land jump side way like this).

            P.S., C-Quad may not be the best kite for kitesurfing due to its
            variable power characteristics (however it's a very fast and probably
            one of the best kiteskiing kites though :-)

            P.P.S., Expect at least a few sessions before you can go upwind in
            kitesurfing.

            Hung.

            kite_hoser wrote:
            >
            > Hi,
            > A friend of mine made a Cedar bi-directional board as his first
            > board. We had it out last weekend in 20km/hr winds at Lake Erie.
            > Was the first time we tried to kitesurf although we've been kite
            > buggying for a year now. We got up on the board no problem first
            > time, planed ok but upwind was very hard. Did reaches of about 200
            > yards. Kite was an 8.5 cquad. The board lost it's planing when
            > trying to turn up wind and it would start to bog through the water
            > instead of planing. The edge is carved down from the top to a rail
            > on the bottom. Should the rail be in the center, or the top of the
            > board, or is the bottom rail the way to go? Also, can someone give
            > me some dimensions (length and width) of a board that would cut
            > upwind and plane a bit easier? This board is only 14.5" wide, about
            > 5' long and 1.7" thick Is it too small? Or is it lack of
            > experience? Thanks in advance.
            > Good Winds from Canada
            > P.S. Posted a few pics in the photo section of the board.
            >
            >
            > If you are new to kitesurfing, please visit
            > http://www.KitesurfingSchool.org/faqs.htm for the answers
            > to the most frequently asked questions.
            >
            > To unsubscribe, please send an email to ksurfschool-unsubscribe@egroups.com
            > To subscribe, please send an email to ksurfschool-subscribe@egroups.com
            >
            >
            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          • kite_hoser
            Thanks so much for the replies guys, I agree wholeheartedly that the board is too small. We thought the rails the way we made them would ve worked better but
            Message 5 of 14 , Jul 4, 2002
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              Thanks so much for the replies guys, I agree wholeheartedly that the
              board is too small. We thought the rails the way we made them
              would've worked better but obviously not. You're right Hung about
              the "getting out of submarine stage". Hard to get it up on a plane
              again once it does this and also you both have the same views on the
              size of board. As for using cquads, well i know everyone will
              disagree but we spend alot of time buggying and skiing (land
              traction) and the cquads are amazing kites. We can all go right into
              the wind for large distances with these kites and I have a few foils
              that I could not get within' breathing distance of the upwind of the
              cquads. The foils luff and curl up, pop back open in the power zone
              when trying to go that far upwind. In gusts, these problems are even
              more exagerrated with foils. So, having a quiver of land kites and
              water specific kites is not at all cost feasable for us. The cquads
              like the water well enough. We launch from sandbar in the water
              where you can stand and then it's a matter of not crashing the kite
              out in deeper water. Exactly the same as using a land foil in the
              water which a lot of people do in our area and get along ok with
              there kites. The advantage we have on them though, is when they do
              crash in water their fun is over until they dry out there kites on
              shore again, which a cquad doesn't have to do. As for the power
              thing, it was unbelieveable. I think for our very first time (none
              of us 3 have any windsurfing or wakeboarding experience at all) we
              did fantastic with that tiny board. If we make another board it will
              be that much better, as well as some more practice and the cquads
              will (have) to work for us. We had pictures taken of us surfing last
              weekend so when i get copies i'll post them up to show how elite
              cquads can be even for new surfers. :-) But please don't think that
              i'm saying anyone can get on a cquad and surf. It's taken us many
              months of land traction activities to really learn our kites. If
              you're going to start from scratch with surfing, obviously the cquad
              would slow your learning curve down greatly because of the time it
              takes to learn these kites to get the proper depower, powering up and
              anti luffing technique happenning.
              Good winds from Canada and thanks for the help with the board input,
              muchly appreciated!!!!!
              Buggy Tyrant
              P.S. Cquads Rule!!!!!!!!!! :-)
            • Kitepower
              Good stuff! C-Quads can be used on the water as I said, Kane Hartill who used to be sponsored by Peter Lynn used them in the early days of kiteboarding 2 years
              Message 6 of 14 , Jul 4, 2002
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                Good stuff! C-Quads can be used on the water as I said, Kane Hartill who
                used to be sponsored by Peter Lynn used them in the early days of
                kiteboarding 2 years ago, he could do amazing stuff on them, and he very
                rarely put them into the water.
                I do not know what type of foils your friends have but there are plenty that
                can match a c-quad now, and in the right hands, they can be re-launched off
                the water, if you are quick, but even when wet a modern foil will fly and
                will dry out quite quickly.
                Each to their own, but no kite absolutely rules!! :-))
                Cya and
                Goodwinds
                Steve McCormack
                http://www.kitepower.com.au
                mailto:sydney@...
                Open 7 days
                126 Beach St, Coogee, Sydney, Australia 2034
                Phone +61293157894

                -----Original Message-----
                From: kite_hoser [mailto:sir_goth@...]
                Sent: 05 July, 2002 3:07 PM
                To: ksurfschool@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [ksurfschool] Re: Woody Board


                Thanks so much for the replies guys, I agree wholeheartedly that the
                board is too small. We thought the rails the way we made them
                would've worked better but obviously not. You're right Hung about
                the "getting out of submarine stage". Hard to get it up on a plane
                again once it does this and also you both have the same views on the
                size of board. As for using cquads, well i know everyone will
                disagree but we spend alot of time buggying and skiing (land
                traction) and the cquads are amazing kites. We can all go right into
                the wind for large distances with these kites and I have a few foils
                that I could not get within' breathing distance of the upwind of the
                cquads. The foils luff and curl up, pop back open in the power zone
                when trying to go that far upwind. In gusts, these problems are even
                more exagerrated with foils. So, having a quiver of land kites and
                water specific kites is not at all cost feasable for us. The cquads
                like the water well enough. We launch from sandbar in the water
                where you can stand and then it's a matter of not crashing the kite
                out in deeper water. Exactly the same as using a land foil in the
                water which a lot of people do in our area and get along ok with
                there kites. The advantage we have on them though, is when they do
                crash in water their fun is over until they dry out there kites on
                shore again, which a cquad doesn't have to do. As for the power
                thing, it was unbelieveable. I think for our very first time (none
                of us 3 have any windsurfing or wakeboarding experience at all) we
                did fantastic with that tiny board. If we make another board it will
                be that much better, as well as some more practice and the cquads
                will (have) to work for us. We had pictures taken of us surfing last
                weekend so when i get copies i'll post them up to show how elite
                cquads can be even for new surfers. :-) But please don't think that
                i'm saying anyone can get on a cquad and surf. It's taken us many
                months of land traction activities to really learn our kites. If
                you're going to start from scratch with surfing, obviously the cquad
                would slow your learning curve down greatly because of the time it
                takes to learn these kites to get the proper depower, powering up and
                anti luffing technique happenning.
                Good winds from Canada and thanks for the help with the board input,
                muchly appreciated!!!!!
                Buggy Tyrant
                P.S. Cquads Rule!!!!!!!!!! :-)


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                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Denisesewa@aol.com
                Just a suggestion An inexpencive way to experiment with board design might be to use Plywood, for example ,to create rocker simply cut two pieces half the
                Message 7 of 14 , Jul 4, 2002
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                  Just a suggestion
                  An inexpencive way to experiment with board design might be to use Plywood,
                  for example ,to create rocker simply cut two pieces half the thickness you
                  want to the out line you want , support both ends of the bottom piece with
                  wood equal in thickness to the amount of rocker you want , apply glue to top
                  surface and lay the second piece of ply on top, weight the center and put
                  shims under the board to create the progression of the rocker, then clamp the
                  whole thing as much as possible distributing the clamping pressure with
                  scraps of wood above and below, not only will this produce the desired rocker
                  but will also make plyywood extreemly rigid, the best inexpecive glue to use
                  is "ProBond" made by Elmers ( believe it or not) it is imperviouse to water
                  extreemly strong and expands as it dries to fill in voids and its availible
                  at home depot and hardware stores.
                  I think once a good design is acheived it would be easy to make a light
                  wieght semi hollow version by using 4mm ply skins with a frame work between
                  using cedar or better yet spruce, all of these will take a shape by bending
                  easily and once bonded together become rigid.( I would probably use epoxy for
                  this one but the probond is just about as good)
                  Having built several sailboats , three kayaks and a cedar strip-plank canoe
                  I have found these methods to work well and can see no reason they wouldnt
                  work just as well for kitesurfing boards.
                  Anyway, food for thought.
                  By the way,
                  I finally decided on Concept air kites and purchased two "new waves" sizes, 6
                  and 9 meters, should be arriving next week, I cant wait to get wet!! :)
                  Denise

                  for a bit more about me go to >>>>>>
                  http://hometown.aol.com/denisesewa/index.html


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • kite_hoser
                  Hi again, just a tad confused about this rail. I saw a brunoti the other day up close and the rail was on the bottom (top down edge). Is the reason for this
                  Message 8 of 14 , Jul 6, 2002
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                    Hi again,
                    just a tad confused about this rail. I saw a brunoti the other day
                    up close and the rail was on the bottom (top down edge). Is the
                    reason for this because the board has rocker and/or the board is so
                    much thinner? Also, one of the reason's the woody board was made so
                    thick, is that there was ample room to carve(sand) rocker at both
                    ends. So our board (even though it's hard to tell with the pictures
                    i posted) does have rocker. So since it's a woody should the rail
                    still be in the center or if it has ample rocker should it be more
                    like a manufactured board with rail on the bottom? Don't know if
                    this makes any sense, any advice would be muchly appreciated. Thanks
                    Good winds from Canada :-)

                    > Without board rocker, a top-down edge (rail at the bottom) is
                    harder to
                    > plane and getting out of the "submarine state".
                    >
                    > Neutral edge (rail at the middle) is probably a better start for
                    > beginner on woody board.
                    >
                    > Once you get efficient at edging and going upwind, go bottom-up edge
                    > (rail at the top of the board). It's very loose, fast and lively;
                    you
                    > can land your jump side-way like magic (no other kiteboard I know -
                    > including snowboard - can land jump side way like this).
                    >
                    > Hung.
                  • hink_trent
                    ... So since it s a woody should the rail ... Thanks ... All of the manufactured wake-style boards I have seen have the edge on the bottom of the board and a
                    Message 9 of 14 , Jul 6, 2002
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                      --- In ksurfschool@y..., "kite_hoser" <sir_goth@h...> wrote:
                      > Hi again,
                      > just a tad confused about this rail. I saw a brunoti the other day
                      > up close and the rail was on the bottom (top down edge).

                      So since it's a woody should the rail
                      > still be in the center or if it has ample rocker should it be more
                      > like a manufactured board with rail on the bottom? Don't know if
                      > this makes any sense, any advice would be muchly appreciated.
                      Thanks
                      > Good winds from Canada :-)
                      >

                      All of the manufactured wake-style boards I have seen have the edge
                      on the bottom of the board and a curve into the top surface. on
                      directionals and some twintips they put more of a curve on the bottom
                      edge to get a looser ride because the fins are doing more of the work
                      keeping the board on track (just my opinion).

                      I think you should build another, larger version of your current
                      board. I made my first board 5'5" x 18" wide x 3/4" thick (glass,ply
                      and foam).

                      I find that this large wide board takes much less power to ride than
                      smaller boards because it planes with less power. for this reason I
                      think it is also also is much more forgiving as long as you are not
                      overpowered. when I find myself getting overpowered on my large
                      board, I can just go in and grab a smaller board without changing
                      kites.
                    • Kitepower
                      Have a look at as many of the latest tray/wake style boards, as you can. You will notice one common theme, thin rails with the edge at the bottom surface of
                      Message 10 of 14 , Jul 6, 2002
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                        Have a look at as many of the latest tray/wake style boards, as you can. You will notice one common theme, thin rails with the edge at the bottom surface of the board. I'm not sure why Hung makes a point of being abe to land a jump sideways, but you can do that if you want to with this rail shape anyway, but you stand a greater chance of losing control and having the board slide out from under you if you do not get an edge/end in first.
                        Kiteboarding is about jumping for most people, a sharp thin rail helps the board bite and load up, essential for getting maximum air.
                        The rails are rounder on surfboards to make them transition from one turn to another in a more flowing style suited to wave riding, when the board is powered by the wave only.
                        Kiteboarding is very much like wakeboarding behind a boat, except you need an edge, to exert and maintain or vary, as conditions and the tricks/jumping you are doing dictate, tension on the kites lines (not against the pull of the boat, which is constant), and to enable you to maintain that edge/line tension in well powered up conditions, which will give you max boost into the air (and upwind ability).
                        You use the sharp cutting edges/rails and their ability to load the lines of your kite, in a synchronised way to get air and then you control your body into the air, maintaining the your orientation to a safe landing, all while using the contollability of the kite to land soft and smooth, immediately upon landing you use those sharp rails/edges to exert tension back on your kite lines, so you are back in control.
                        Kiteboarding is a synergy between the riders mind and emotions/spirit, and the kite, its lines, and the edge-ability of the board.
                        Above all have fun!
                        Cya and
                        Goodwinds
                        Steve McCormack
                        http://www.kitepower.com.au
                        open 7 days, every week.

                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: kite_hoser
                        To: ksurfschool@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Sunday, July 07, 2002 12:32 AM
                        Subject: [ksurfschool] Re: Woody Board


                        Hi again,
                        just a tad confused about this rail. I saw a brunoti the other day
                        up close and the rail was on the bottom (top down edge). Is the
                        reason for this because the board has rocker and/or the board is so
                        much thinner? Also, one of the reason's the woody board was made so
                        thick, is that there was ample room to carve(sand) rocker at both
                        ends. So our board (even though it's hard to tell with the pictures
                        i posted) does have rocker. So since it's a woody should the rail
                        still be in the center or if it has ample rocker should it be more
                        like a manufactured board with rail on the bottom? Don't know if
                        this makes any sense, any advice would be muchly appreciated. Thanks
                        Good winds from Canada :-)

                        > Without board rocker, a top-down edge (rail at the bottom) is
                        harder to
                        > plane and getting out of the "submarine state".
                        >
                        > Neutral edge (rail at the middle) is probably a better start for
                        > beginner on woody board.
                        >
                        > Once you get efficient at edging and going upwind, go bottom-up edge
                        > (rail at the top of the board). It's very loose, fast and lively;
                        you
                        > can land your jump side-way like magic (no other kiteboard I know -
                        > including snowboard - can land jump side way like this).
                        >
                        > Hung.



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                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • ex_cpe
                        ... you can. You will notice one common theme, thin rails with the edge at the bottom surface of the board. I m not sure why Hung makes a point of being abe to
                        Message 11 of 14 , Jul 7, 2002
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                          --- In ksurfschool@y..., "Kitepower" <sydney@k...> wrote:
                          > Have a look at as many of the latest tray/wake style boards, as
                          you can. You will notice one common theme, thin rails with the
                          edge at the bottom surface of the board. I'm not sure why Hung
                          makes a point of being abe to land a jump sideways, but you can
                          do that if you want to with this rail shape anyway, but you stand a
                          greater chance of losing control and having the board slide out
                          from under you if you do not get an edge/end in first.
                          > Kiteboarding is about jumping for most people, a sharp thin
                          rail helps the board bite and load up, essential for getting
                          maximum air.
                          > The rails are rounder on surfboards to make them transition
                          from one turn to another in a more flowing style suited to wave
                          riding, when the board is powered by the wave only.
                          > Kiteboarding is very much like wakeboarding behind a boat,
                          except you need an edge, to exert and maintain or vary, as
                          conditions and the tricks/jumping you are doing dictate, tension
                          on the kites lines (not against the pull of the boat, which is
                          constant), and to enable you to maintain that edge/line tension in
                          well powered up conditions, which will give you max boost into
                          the air (and upwind ability).
                          > You use the sharp cutting edges/rails and their ability to load
                          the lines of your kite, in a synchronised way to get air and then
                          you control your body into the air, maintaining the your orientation
                          to a safe landing, all while using the contollability of the kite to
                          land soft and smooth, immediately upon landing you use those
                          sharp rails/edges to exert tension back on your kite lines, so you
                          are back in control.
                          > Kiteboarding is a synergy between the riders mind and
                          emotions/spirit, and the kite, its lines, and the edge-ability of the
                          board.
                          > Above all have fun!
                          > Cya and
                          > Goodwinds
                          > Steve McCormack

                          Well stated! You compacted more in those few paragraphs than
                          three how-to vids I've seen. ....perhaps it's time to buy some
                          16MM, eh?

                          Jim
                        • kite_hoser
                          Thanks so much for all the opinions. I am starting a new larger/thinner board today. It should work much better. Will keep you all posted as to the results
                          Message 12 of 14 , Jul 7, 2002
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                            Thanks so much for all the opinions. I am starting a new
                            larger/thinner board today. It should work much better. Will keep
                            you all posted as to the results (or keep bugging you all with more
                            questions) :-). Thanks again and Good Winds from Canada.
                          • Kitepower
                            Thanks Jim When I re-read that there are few words that I would add here and there, but real synergy is what kiteboarding is, I think that is why it just grabs
                            Message 13 of 14 , Jul 7, 2002
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                              Thanks Jim

                              When I re-read that there are few words that I would add here and there, but real synergy is what kiteboarding is, I think that is why it just grabs people and it changes their lives forever. Experiencing synergy between yourself and nature or with other people is one of life's finest things IMO, and money cannot buy it!! :-))

                              Due to an old war wound (motorcycle crash) I am increasingly unable to kiteboard, but my aim is to get a decent video camera and make instructional/promo, top rider vids, and stuff to make people laugh, look out for a character I've invented called "Keiff wiff da teef" aka "the God of ugly people".
                              Sorry in advance!! :-)
                              Cya and
                              Goodwinds
                              Steve McCormack
                              http://www.kitepower.com.au
                              open 7 days, every week.
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: ex_cpe
                              To: ksurfschool@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Sunday, July 07, 2002 9:19 PM
                              Subject: [ksurfschool] Re: Woody Board


                              --- In ksurfschool@y..., "Kitepower" <sydney@k...> wrote:
                              > Have a look at as many of the latest tray/wake style boards, as
                              you can. You will notice one common theme, thin rails with the
                              edge at the bottom surface of the board. I'm not sure why Hung
                              makes a point of being abe to land a jump sideways, but you can
                              do that if you want to with this rail shape anyway, but you stand a
                              greater chance of losing control and having the board slide out
                              from under you if you do not get an edge/end in first.
                              > Kiteboarding is about jumping for most people, a sharp thin
                              rail helps the board bite and load up, essential for getting
                              maximum air.
                              > The rails are rounder on surfboards to make them transition
                              from one turn to another in a more flowing style suited to wave
                              riding, when the board is powered by the wave only.
                              > Kiteboarding is very much like wakeboarding behind a boat,
                              except you need an edge, to exert and maintain or vary, as
                              conditions and the tricks/jumping you are doing dictate, tension
                              on the kites lines (not against the pull of the boat, which is
                              constant), and to enable you to maintain that edge/line tension in
                              well powered up conditions, which will give you max boost into
                              the air (and upwind ability).
                              > You use the sharp cutting edges/rails and their ability to load
                              the lines of your kite, in a synchronised way to get air and then
                              you control your body into the air, maintaining the your orientation
                              to a safe landing, all while using the contollability of the kite to
                              land soft and smooth, immediately upon landing you use those
                              sharp rails/edges to exert tension back on your kite lines, so you
                              are back in control.
                              > Kiteboarding is a synergy between the riders mind and
                              emotions/spirit, and the kite, its lines, and the edge-ability of the
                              board.
                              > Above all have fun!
                              > Cya and
                              > Goodwinds
                              > Steve McCormack

                              Well stated! You compacted more in those few paragraphs than
                              three how-to vids I've seen. ....perhaps it's time to buy some
                              16MM, eh?

                              Jim




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