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To chicken loop or not?

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  • Hung Vu
    The recent kitesurfing incident in Florida prompt me to start doubting the future of chicken loop as a standard kitesurfing device. The chicken loop should
    Message 1 of 19 , Mar 6, 2002
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      The recent kitesurfing incident in Florida prompt me to start doubting
      the future of chicken loop as a "standard" kitesurfing device.

      The chicken loop should be banned as it is too DANGEROUS and also does
      more harm than good in improving a kitesurfer skill (ironically, as I
      was one of the first ones to "invent" or support the chicken loop in the
      early days).

      Two years ago I had a tea-bagging incident that luckily did not turn
      into any nasty accident as I managed to forcefully land the kite in the
      water while being lifted 5' up in the air (I was in the chicken loop,
      and COULD NOT GET OUT OF IT, being tea-bagged by my 11.5 in very strong
      gusty wind from very far to almost 100' to shore before being able to
      forcefully land the kite).

      Since then I have never used the chicken loop and actually enjoyed
      kitesurfing much better (the SOLID feeling of the kite power in your
      hands and the SATISFACTION in being able to edge harder to counter any
      extreme force that the kite can throw at you).

      Those who use the chicken loop never know how much edging/depowering
      their legs can do.

      Those who use the chicken loop never know how much kite power their arms
      (or body) can hang on to.

      Without the chicken loop, one's arms and legs have to work MUCH HARDER
      but that's is what one probably wants in the first place (instead of
      paying money to work out at the gym)... Not counting the higher altitude
      one can achieve...

      P.S., Not using the chicken loop also allows one to KNOW HOW TO USE
      other types of kites such as 2 line inflatables and foils.

      P.P.S., The chicken loop should be considered as AN OPTIONAL ACCESSORY
      of kitesurfing but not a STANDARD element of kitesurfing as it has been.

      Hung.
    • airdoodle
      Hi All- This is obviously an important issue, so I thought that I might append a few questions to the prior post... Hopefully this will lead to a bit of a
      Message 2 of 19 , Mar 6, 2002
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        Hi All-
        This is obviously an important issue, so I thought that I might
        append a few questions to the prior post... Hopefully this will lead
        to a bit of a discussion amongst other more experience kiters like
        the original author of this thread and others

        The recent kitesurfing incident in Florida prompt me to start doubting
        > the future of chicken loop as a "standard" kitesurfing device.
        >
        > The chicken loop should be banned as it is too DANGEROUS and also
        does
        > more harm than good in improving a kitesurfer skill

        Ok- By this you mean, that being in the chicken loop "tames" the kite
        so you miss out on learning how to control a fully
        powered/overpowered kite. I think I agree about 50% of the time,
        based upon my increasing but limited experience. First of all, when
        this is true (and it clearly is not always true)is this such a bad
        thing? Second, when in the chicken loop you can set up a WIDE range
        of depower settings (all new Naish and Cabrinha and others) and can
        get overpowered in the chicken loop... i.e. your tea bagging.

        Unless you mean that when in the chicken loop and overpowered
        (hopefully not often, but as you say it happens)that you are in more
        trouble due to the bar being pulled away from you and its harder to
        control/handle? Is this what happens? I have not had this happen in
        the chicken loop yet, plenty of times in the main loop.

        > Two years ago I had a tea-bagging incident that luckily did not turn
        > into any nasty accident as I managed to forcefully land the kite in
        the
        > water while being lifted 5' up in the air (I was in the chicken
        loop,
        > and COULD NOT GET OUT OF IT

        How is the chicken loop any different in this respect from the main
        or fixed loop? IS this because you need to haul down on the bar
        along the center line when in the chicken loop to even get to the
        point where you can use the bar to force the loop down, where as in
        the main loop you just need to move the bar a little ways (does this
        difference really matter when you up against you body weight 5 ft in
        the air?)??? Seems to me your equally screwed and thats why alot of
        us are buggin Mel for his experience with snap shackles. IF you
        disagree please explain why its worse to be in this loop so I can
        think about this before going out again.

        Thanks

        Matthew
      • Hung Vu
        ... When you are in the chicken loop and overpowered (the wind is at or above the max range of the kite), there is NO WAY to remove yourself from the loop. ...
        Message 3 of 19 , Mar 7, 2002
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          airdoodle wrote:
          > Unless you mean that when in the chicken loop and overpowered
          > (hopefully not often, but as you say it happens)that you are in more
          > trouble due to the bar being pulled away from you and its harder to
          > control/handle? Is this what happens? I have not had this happen in
          > the chicken loop yet, plenty of times in the main loop.

          When you are in the chicken loop and overpowered (the wind is at or
          above the max range of the kite), there is NO WAY to remove yourself
          from the loop.

          > How is the chicken loop any different in this respect from the main
          > or fixed loop? IS this because you need to haul down on the bar
          > along the center line when in the chicken loop to even get to the
          > point where you can use the bar to force the loop down, where as in
          > the main loop you just need to move the bar a little ways (does this
          > difference really matter when you up against you body weight 5 ft in
          > the air?)???

          Never have any problem releasing the main loop. Never be able to
          release the chicken loop in wind at or above the max range of the kite.

          The reasons are two folds: first, the chicken loop is much shorter
          therefore your arm anatomy make it much harder to release it than the
          main loop; second, when you slide the bar down to reach the chicken loop
          to release it, this action "empower" the kite and make it even harder to
          release the chicken loop.

          P.S., Attaching oneself to the kite (via a snap shackle) may be better
          but the best is to use a snap shackle right on the loop or a releasable
          harness hook (Prolimit or a "battery ribbon release" system - if they
          are working).

          P.P.S., The simpler option is not to use the chicken loop at all...

          Hung.
        • fernmanus
          Matt, You will see, there are times when you get overpowered because the wind continues to accelerate while you are on the water. You reach a point where you
          Message 4 of 19 , Mar 7, 2002
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            Matt,

            You will see, there are times when you get overpowered because the
            wind continues to accelerate while you are on the water. You reach a
            point where you can no longer depower the kite enough to prevent tea
            bagging from occurring. Tea bagging in itself is no big deal and is
            actually kind of fun, the problem occurs when you get near the shore.

            A good snap shackle system can help you release from the chicken loop
            when you are way overpowered. I personally would never do away with
            the chicken loop. The chicken loop allows far more range in gusty,
            unpredictable conditions. It also allows beginners to depower the
            kite when acquiring and putting on the board.

            Kenny
            --- In ksurfschool@y..., "airdoodle" <matthew.hockin@h...> wrote:
            > Hi All-
            > This is obviously an important issue, so I thought that I
            might
            > append a few questions to the prior post... Hopefully this will
            lead
            > to a bit of a discussion amongst other more experience kiters like
            > the original author of this thread and others
            >
            > The recent kitesurfing incident in Florida prompt me to start
            doubting
            > > the future of chicken loop as a "standard" kitesurfing device.
            > >
            > > The chicken loop should be banned as it is too DANGEROUS and also
            > does
            > > more harm than good in improving a kitesurfer skill
            >
            > Ok- By this you mean, that being in the chicken loop "tames" the
            kite
            > so you miss out on learning how to control a fully
            > powered/overpowered kite. I think I agree about 50% of the time,
            > based upon my increasing but limited experience. First of all,
            when
            > this is true (and it clearly is not always true)is this such a bad
            > thing? Second, when in the chicken loop you can set up a WIDE
            range
            > of depower settings (all new Naish and Cabrinha and others) and can
            > get overpowered in the chicken loop... i.e. your tea bagging.
            >
            > Unless you mean that when in the chicken loop and overpowered
            > (hopefully not often, but as you say it happens)that you are in
            more
            > trouble due to the bar being pulled away from you and its harder to
            > control/handle? Is this what happens? I have not had this happen
            in
            > the chicken loop yet, plenty of times in the main loop.
            >
            > > Two years ago I had a tea-bagging incident that luckily did not
            turn
            > > into any nasty accident as I managed to forcefully land the kite
            in
            > the
            > > water while being lifted 5' up in the air (I was in the chicken
            > loop,
            > > and COULD NOT GET OUT OF IT
            >
            > How is the chicken loop any different in this respect from the main
            > or fixed loop? IS this because you need to haul down on the bar
            > along the center line when in the chicken loop to even get to the
            > point where you can use the bar to force the loop down, where as in
            > the main loop you just need to move the bar a little ways (does
            this
            > difference really matter when you up against you body weight 5 ft
            in
            > the air?)??? Seems to me your equally screwed and thats why alot
            of
            > us are buggin Mel for his experience with snap shackles. IF you
            > disagree please explain why its worse to be in this loop so I can
            > think about this before going out again.
            >
            > Thanks
            >
            > Matthew
          • fernmanus
            Hung, Have you ever flown a very large kite in gusty conditions? Say a 16 meter plus size inflatable? I agree that the chicken loop is not necessary when
            Message 5 of 19 , Mar 7, 2002
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              Hung,

              Have you ever flown a very large kite in gusty conditions? Say a 16
              meter plus size inflatable? I agree that the chicken loop is not
              necessary when flying smaller kites. On kites that are 11.5 (Naish
              sizing) and smaller it is easy to fly the kite forward in the window
              and just edge when you are overpowered. This is just not possible on
              the big inflatables.

              If you live in an area where the wind is not consistent, you can go
              out with a kite that is one size larger than what you would not using
              the loop. Then if the wind drops, you are still on the water. If it
              increases, you can jump that much higher.

              It is also easier to ride toeside while in the chicken loop.

              I disagree with eliminating the chicken loop. Rather manufacturers
              should start incorporating safety systems (snap shackles) to prevent
              serious injuries.

              Kenny

              --- In ksurfschool@y..., Hung Vu <hungvu@n...> wrote:
              > The recent kitesurfing incident in Florida prompt me to start
              doubting
              > the future of chicken loop as a "standard" kitesurfing device.
              >
              > The chicken loop should be banned as it is too DANGEROUS and also
              does
              > more harm than good in improving a kitesurfer skill (ironically, as
              I
              > was one of the first ones to "invent" or support the chicken loop
              in the
              > early days).
              >
              > Two years ago I had a tea-bagging incident that luckily did not turn
              > into any nasty accident as I managed to forcefully land the kite in
              the
              > water while being lifted 5' up in the air (I was in the chicken
              loop,
              > and COULD NOT GET OUT OF IT, being tea-bagged by my 11.5 in very
              strong
              > gusty wind from very far to almost 100' to shore before being able
              to
              > forcefully land the kite).
              >
              > Since then I have never used the chicken loop and actually enjoyed
              > kitesurfing much better (the SOLID feeling of the kite power in your
              > hands and the SATISFACTION in being able to edge harder to counter
              any
              > extreme force that the kite can throw at you).
              >
              > Those who use the chicken loop never know how much edging/depowering
              > their legs can do.
              >
              > Those who use the chicken loop never know how much kite power their
              arms
              > (or body) can hang on to.
              >
              > Without the chicken loop, one's arms and legs have to work MUCH
              HARDER
              > but that's is what one probably wants in the first place (instead of
              > paying money to work out at the gym)... Not counting the higher
              altitude
              > one can achieve...
              >
              > P.S., Not using the chicken loop also allows one to KNOW HOW TO USE
              > other types of kites such as 2 line inflatables and foils.
              >
              > P.P.S., The chicken loop should be considered as AN OPTIONAL
              ACCESSORY
              > of kitesurfing but not a STANDARD element of kitesurfing as it has
              been.
              >
              > Hung.
            • Mel
              ... Trim LINES are great. It s the LOOP that s the biggest problem. Make the loop itself too small to hook to the harness, & use a good snap shackle to
              Message 6 of 19 , Mar 7, 2002
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                fernmanus <fernmanus@...> wrote:

                > A good snap shackle system can help you release from the chicken loop
                > when you are way overpowered. I personally would never do away with
                > the chicken loop.

                Trim LINES are great. It's the LOOP that's the biggest problem. Make the
                loop itself too small to hook to the harness, & use a good snap shackle to
                connect it instead. That way you can nearly always get out when you need
                to.

                Mel
              • Remtgnow@AOL.com
                how many scheckels for that shackle? t-8? Phil Burke
                Message 7 of 19 , Mar 7, 2002
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                  how many scheckels for that shackle? t-8?
                  Phil Burke
                • Mike Soultanian
                  I was looking at the Tylaska T-8 Shackle.. do you have to stick your finger in the little hole and push the lever to release it? mike
                  Message 8 of 19 , Mar 7, 2002
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                    I was looking at the Tylaska T-8 Shackle.. do you have to stick your
                    finger in the little hole and push the lever to release it?

                    mike


                    Philip wrote:
                    >
                    > A note on Shackles. Do not Screw around! Get the Trigger release shackle
                    > Tylaska T-8.
                    > There are less expensive shackles for sure, but saving $50-$60-or even
                    > $100 bucks means nothing when you cannot release your self from the
                    > kite. Weather you get them from me or not is irrelevant! Just get one.
                    > Shackles with Pins become increasingly difficult to open as the load
                    > goes up and the friction builds on the pin.
                    > The Tylaska will release under huge load very easily as the trigger is
                    > not influenced by the load on the shackle.
                    >
                    > Moral- Don't try to save shekels when buying a shackle, If the pin gets
                    > stuck you are out of luck.
                    > In safety, trying to save a nickel may mean a trip to the
                    > hospital.
                    >
                    > Have Fun, Be Safe!
                    >
                    > Philip
                    >
                    >
                    > Philip Mann
                    > Inland Sea Windsurf Co.
                    > http://www.inlandsea.com
                    > Kitesite.net
                    > http://www.kitesite.net
                    > toll free 888-465-2632
                    >
                    >
                    > -----Original Message-----
                    > From: Mel [mailto:kitebord@...]
                    > Sent: Thursday, March 07, 2002 10:27 AM
                    > To: ksurfschool@yahoogroups.com
                    > Subject: Re: [ksurfschool] Re: To chicken loop or not?
                    >
                    > fernmanus <fernmanus@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > > A good snap shackle system can help you release from the chicken loop
                    > > when you are way overpowered. I personally would never do away with
                    > > the chicken loop.
                    >
                    > Trim LINES are great. It's the LOOP that's the biggest problem. Make
                    > the loop itself too small to hook to the harness, & use a good snap
                    > shackle to connect it instead. That way you can nearly always get out
                    > when you need to.
                    >
                    > Mel
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                    > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  • Philip
                    A note on Shackles. Do not Screw around! Get the Trigger release shackle Tylaska T-8. There are less expensive shackles for sure, but saving $50-$60-or even
                    Message 9 of 19 , Mar 7, 2002
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                      A note on Shackles. Do not Screw around! Get the Trigger release shackle
                      Tylaska T-8.
                      There are less expensive shackles for sure, but saving $50-$60-or even
                      $100 bucks means nothing when you cannot release your self from the
                      kite. Weather you get them from me or not is irrelevant! Just get one.
                      Shackles with Pins become increasingly difficult to open as the load
                      goes up and the friction builds on the pin.
                      The Tylaska will release under huge load very easily as the trigger is
                      not influenced by the load on the shackle.

                      Moral- Don't try to save shekels when buying a shackle, If the pin gets
                      stuck you are out of luck.
                      In safety, trying to save a nickel may mean a trip to the
                      hospital.

                      Have Fun, Be Safe!


                      Philip




                      Philip Mann
                      Inland Sea Windsurf Co.
                      http://www.inlandsea.com
                      Kitesite.net
                      http://www.kitesite.net
                      toll free 888-465-2632



                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: Mel [mailto:kitebord@...]
                      Sent: Thursday, March 07, 2002 10:27 AM
                      To: ksurfschool@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [ksurfschool] Re: To chicken loop or not?


                      fernmanus <fernmanus@...> wrote:

                      > A good snap shackle system can help you release from the chicken loop
                      > when you are way overpowered. I personally would never do away with
                      > the chicken loop.

                      Trim LINES are great. It's the LOOP that's the biggest problem. Make
                      the loop itself too small to hook to the harness, & use a good snap
                      shackle to connect it instead. That way you can nearly always get out
                      when you need to.

                      Mel





                      Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                      http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                    • Hung Vu
                      Mel, I think Mel start to see the light ... Yes, the trim line is great... Even me I use the trim strap (which in turn shortens or lengthens the trim line).
                      Message 10 of 19 , Mar 7, 2002
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                        Mel,

                        I think Mel start to see the "light"...

                        Yes, the trim line is great... Even me I use the trim strap (which in
                        turn shortens or lengthens the trim line).

                        It's the LOOP that is dangerous and should be banned unless they shipped
                        a snap shackle loop as the standard device.

                        Some "simplicist" like me just simply drop the loop...

                        Hung.

                        Mel wrote:
                        >
                        > fernmanus <fernmanus@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > > A good snap shackle system can help you release from the chicken loop
                        > > when you are way overpowered. I personally would never do away with
                        > > the chicken loop.
                        >
                        > Trim LINES are great. It's the LOOP that's the biggest problem. Make the
                        > loop itself too small to hook to the harness, & use a good snap shackle to
                        > connect it instead. That way you can nearly always get out when you need
                        > to.
                        >
                        > Mel
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                      • Dwight & Jacky
                        You do if you don t buy the specially modified T-8 sold for kiting. I think they show it at NSI s web site. Dwight
                        Message 11 of 19 , Mar 7, 2002
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                          You do if you don't buy the specially modified T-8 sold for kiting. I think they show it at NSI's
                          web site.

                          Dwight


                          > I was looking at the Tylaska T-8 Shackle.. do you have to stick your
                          > finger in the little hole and push the lever to release it?
                          >
                          > mike
                        • airdoodle
                          ... in ... they shipped ... Ok- Let me see if I can restate this to be sure I understand and to summarize everything. There seem to be three issues: 1) Is the
                          Message 12 of 19 , Mar 8, 2002
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                            --- In ksurfschool@y..., Hung Vu <hungvu@n...> wrote:
                            > Mel,
                            >
                            > I think Mel start to see the "light"...
                            >
                            > Yes, the trim line is great... Even me I use the trim strap (which
                            in
                            > turn shortens or lengthens the trim line).
                            >
                            > It's the LOOP that is dangerous and should be banned unless
                            they shipped
                            > a snap shackle loop as the standard device.
                            >
                            > Some "simplicist" like me just simply drop the loop...
                            >
                            > Hung.
                            >
                            >
                            Ok- Let me see if I can restate this to be sure I understand and
                            to summarize everything. There seem to be three issues:

                            1) Is the chicken loop a good device to control the kite.
                            Yes.... under all conditions it allows you to have less
                            power than you otherwise would so this is "safe"

                            2) Is the chicken loop safe to be hooked into.
                            I am a bit confused....

                            two points seem to be being made, both sound correct

                            It is not safe because if you get overpowered with the bar fully
                            out you are really in trouble because you need to pull it in to
                            get out of the loop and doing so increases (A LOT) the
                            power to you in an allready bad situation. This makes sense.

                            It is also not safe because the loop is too small to release...
                            Can someone explain this to me at the first grade level

                            So, the final summary seems to be, if we had (and we do) a way
                            to more or less guarantee that you could get out of the chicken
                            loop without pulling the bar in then the chicken loop would be the
                            preferred (lets not argue about style of riding, just emphasize
                            safety for beginners) system to use.

                            So, shicken loop plus snapshackle = kite control + safety

                            Any suggestions about waiting for the prolimit v.s. buying a snap
                            shackle today?

                            Matthew
                          • Mike Soultanian
                            Is releasing this shackle something that s relatively easy to do? I can t really tell from the picture what needs to be done to open it. Also, if you release
                            Message 13 of 19 , Mar 8, 2002
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                              Is releasing this shackle something that's relatively easy to do? I
                              can't really tell from the picture what needs to be done to open it.

                              Also, if you release it under pressure, it looks like the thing will
                              flip open real fast and whack you in the hand.

                              Is this an issue?

                              Thanks,
                              Mike


                              Philip wrote:
                              >
                              > Mike,
                              >
                              > The Shackle itself does require that you insert a finger to set off the
                              > trigger.
                              > What North Shore has done is to manufacturer a Trigger release that is
                              > simple but only requires you to grab down at the bar and flick it and
                              > the shackle releases.
                              > The picture is at the following link.
                              >
                              > http://www.kitesite.net/products/nsi/kiteshacklesetup.jpg
                              >
                              > Philip Mann
                              > Inland Sea Windsurf Co.
                              > http://www.inlandsea.com
                              > Kitesite.net
                              > http://www.kitesite.net
                              > toll free 888-465-2632
                              >
                              >
                              > -----Original Message-----
                              > From: Mike Soultanian [mailto:msoultan@...]
                              > Sent: Thursday, March 07, 2002 1:27 PM
                              > To: ksurfschool@yahoogroups.com
                              > Subject: Re: [ksurfschool] Re: To chicken loop or not?- Note on shackels
                              >
                              > I was looking at the Tylaska T-8 Shackle.. do you have to stick your
                              > finger in the little hole and push the lever to release it?
                              >
                              > mike
                              >
                              > Philip wrote:
                              > >
                              > > A note on Shackles. Do not Screw around! Get the Trigger release
                              > > shackle Tylaska T-8. There are less expensive shackles for sure, but
                              > > saving $50-$60-or even $100 bucks means nothing when you cannot
                              > > release your self from the kite. Weather you get them from me or not
                              > > is irrelevant! Just get one. Shackles with Pins become increasingly
                              > > difficult to open as the load goes up and the friction builds on the
                              > > pin. The Tylaska will release under huge load very easily as the
                              > > trigger is not influenced by the load on the shackle.
                              > >
                              > > Moral- Don't try to save shekels when buying a shackle, If the pin
                              > > gets stuck you are out of luck.
                              > > In safety, trying to save a nickel may mean a trip to the
                              > > hospital.
                              > >
                              > > Have Fun, Be Safe!
                              > >
                              > > Philip
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Philip Mann
                              > > Inland Sea Windsurf Co.
                              > > http://www.inlandsea.com
                              > > Kitesite.net
                              > > http://www.kitesite.net
                              > > toll free 888-465-2632
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > -----Original Message-----
                              > > From: Mel [mailto:kitebord@...]
                              > > Sent: Thursday, March 07, 2002 10:27 AM
                              > > To: ksurfschool@yahoogroups.com
                              > > Subject: Re: [ksurfschool] Re: To chicken loop or not?
                              > >
                              > > fernmanus <fernmanus@...> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > > A good snap shackle system can help you release from the chicken
                              > > > loop when you are way overpowered. I personally would never do away
                              >
                              > > > with the chicken loop.
                              > >
                              > > Trim LINES are great. It's the LOOP that's the biggest problem. Make
                              >
                              > > the loop itself too small to hook to the harness, & use a good snap
                              > > shackle to connect it instead. That way you can nearly always get out
                              >
                              > > when you need to.
                              > >
                              > > Mel
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                              > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                              > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                              > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                            • Philip
                              Phil, The T8 is $121.00 delivered/ There is also a pre set up harness bar set up that is nice. You can se them at.
                              Message 14 of 19 , Mar 8, 2002
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                                Phil,

                                The T8 is $121.00 delivered/
                                There is also a pre set up harness bar set up that is nice.

                                You can se them at.
                                http://www.kitesite.net/products/mainframe_bars.htm

                                On the bottom right.

                                Let me know what questions you may have.

                                Philip




                                Philip Mann
                                Inland Sea Windsurf Co.
                                http://www.inlandsea.com
                                Kitesite.net
                                http://www.kitesite.net
                                toll free 888-465-2632



                                -----Original Message-----
                                From: Remtgnow@... [mailto:Remtgnow@...]
                                Sent: Thursday, March 07, 2002 1:23 PM
                                To: ksurfschool@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: Re: [ksurfschool] Re: To chicken loop or not?- Note on shackels


                                how many scheckels for that shackle? t-8?
                                Phil Burke




                                Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                              • Philip
                                Mike, The Shackle itself does require that you insert a finger to set off the trigger. What North Shore has done is to manufacturer a Trigger release that is
                                Message 15 of 19 , Mar 8, 2002
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Mike,

                                  The Shackle itself does require that you insert a finger to set off the
                                  trigger.
                                  What North Shore has done is to manufacturer a Trigger release that is
                                  simple but only requires you to grab down at the bar and flick it and
                                  the shackle releases.
                                  The picture is at the following link.

                                  http://www.kitesite.net/products/nsi/kiteshacklesetup.jpg

                                  Philip Mann
                                  Inland Sea Windsurf Co.
                                  http://www.inlandsea.com
                                  Kitesite.net
                                  http://www.kitesite.net
                                  toll free 888-465-2632



                                  -----Original Message-----
                                  From: Mike Soultanian [mailto:msoultan@...]
                                  Sent: Thursday, March 07, 2002 1:27 PM
                                  To: ksurfschool@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: Re: [ksurfschool] Re: To chicken loop or not?- Note on shackels


                                  I was looking at the Tylaska T-8 Shackle.. do you have to stick your
                                  finger in the little hole and push the lever to release it?

                                  mike


                                  Philip wrote:
                                  >
                                  > A note on Shackles. Do not Screw around! Get the Trigger release
                                  > shackle Tylaska T-8. There are less expensive shackles for sure, but
                                  > saving $50-$60-or even $100 bucks means nothing when you cannot
                                  > release your self from the kite. Weather you get them from me or not
                                  > is irrelevant! Just get one. Shackles with Pins become increasingly
                                  > difficult to open as the load goes up and the friction builds on the
                                  > pin. The Tylaska will release under huge load very easily as the
                                  > trigger is not influenced by the load on the shackle.
                                  >
                                  > Moral- Don't try to save shekels when buying a shackle, If the pin
                                  > gets stuck you are out of luck.
                                  > In safety, trying to save a nickel may mean a trip to the
                                  > hospital.
                                  >
                                  > Have Fun, Be Safe!
                                  >
                                  > Philip
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Philip Mann
                                  > Inland Sea Windsurf Co.
                                  > http://www.inlandsea.com
                                  > Kitesite.net
                                  > http://www.kitesite.net
                                  > toll free 888-465-2632
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > -----Original Message-----
                                  > From: Mel [mailto:kitebord@...]
                                  > Sent: Thursday, March 07, 2002 10:27 AM
                                  > To: ksurfschool@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Subject: Re: [ksurfschool] Re: To chicken loop or not?
                                  >
                                  > fernmanus <fernmanus@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > > A good snap shackle system can help you release from the chicken
                                  > > loop when you are way overpowered. I personally would never do away

                                  > > with the chicken loop.
                                  >
                                  > Trim LINES are great. It's the LOOP that's the biggest problem. Make

                                  > the loop itself too small to hook to the harness, & use a good snap
                                  > shackle to connect it instead. That way you can nearly always get out

                                  > when you need to.
                                  >
                                  > Mel
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                  > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                  > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/




                                  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                  http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                • Mel
                                  ... Actually Hung, I saw the light a couple of years ago after about the third time I used a 4-line sled, & have been an anti-loop snapshackle advocate ever
                                  Message 16 of 19 , Mar 9, 2002
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Hung Vu <hungvu@n...> wrote:

                                    > I think Mel start to see the "light"...
                                    > It's the LOOP that is dangerous and should be banned unless
                                    > they shipped
                                    > a snap shackle loop as the standard device.

                                    Actually Hung, I "saw the light" a couple of years ago after about the third
                                    time I used a 4-line sled, & have been an anti-loop snapshackle advocate
                                    ever since.

                                    AND airdoodle <matthew.hockin@...> wrote:

                                    > Any suggestions about waiting for the prolimit v.s. buying a snap
                                    > shackle today?

                                    1) Don't risk your life for the next few weeks (I just heard it will be
                                    mid-to-late April before they're here), just in case they end up working
                                    better (making you feel like you "wasted" $60, just to save a trip to the
                                    emergency room).

                                    2) An advantage to the snapshackle is that it keeps you hooked in when a
                                    loop may fall off a hook (releasable or otherwise) when you don't want it
                                    to. Advantages of the ProLimit include the ability to unhook from a trim
                                    loop when you DO want to, as well as the ability to release from a main
                                    harness line.

                                    On the snapshackle itself, www.westmarine.com # 214700 is a Wichard "trigger
                                    release" that's less expensive than the Tylaska T-8, but I still prefer #
                                    583940 (Wichard 2673). Both require roughly equally easy modifications for
                                    kiteboarding use, but the 2673 releases just as reliably (tip pivot) at
                                    about 2/3 the price, & can be set up so pulling a "grab-ball" in ANY
                                    direction releases it. There are photos in my group file folder.

                                    Mel
                                  • Pauric
                                    I ve seen some 2001 airblast main loops with a flexible plastic pipe. The pipe extends past the loop by an inch or so and fits *in* to the speader hook after
                                    Message 17 of 19 , Mar 12, 2002
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      I've seen some 2001 airblast main loops with a flexible plastic pipe. The pipe extends past the loop by an inch or so and fits *in* to the speader hook after the loop goes on. This stops the loop droping off and is relatively easy to remove under normal conditions

                                      What are people's experience of this, how hard is to to release under pressure?

                                      thanks
                                      p

                                      To: ksurfschool@yahoogroups.com
                                      cc:
                                      Subject: Re: [ksurfschool] Re: To chicken loop or not?

                                      Hung Vu <hungvu@n...> wrote:

                                      > I think Mel start to see the "light"...
                                      > It's the LOOP that is dangerous and should be banned unless
                                      > they shipped
                                      > a snap shackle loop as the standard device.

                                      Actually Hung, I "saw the light" a couple of years ago after about the third
                                      time I used a 4-line sled, & have been an anti-loop snapshackle advocate
                                      ever since.

                                      AND airdoodle <matthew.hockin@...> wrote:

                                      > Any suggestions about waiting for the prolimit v.s. buying a snap
                                      > shackle today?

                                      1) Don't risk your life for the next few weeks (I just heard it will be
                                      mid-to-late April before they're here), just in case they end up working
                                      better (making you feel like you "wasted" $60, just to save a trip to the
                                      emergency room).

                                      2) An advantage to the snapshackle is that it keeps you hooked in when a
                                      loop may fall off a hook (releasable or otherwise) when you don't want it
                                      to. Advantages of the ProLimit include the ability to unhook from a trim
                                      loop when you DO want to, as well as the ability to release from a main
                                      harness line.

                                      On the snapshackle itself, www.westmarine.com # 214700 is a Wichard "trigger
                                      release" that's less expensive than the Tylaska T-8, but I still prefer #
                                      583940 (Wichard 2673). Both require roughly equally easy modifications for
                                      kiteboarding use, but the 2673 releases just as reliably (tip pivot) at
                                      about 2/3 the price, & can be set up so pulling a "grab-ball" in ANY
                                      direction releases it. There are photos in my group file folder.

                                      Mel





                                      Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • Philip
                                      P. The Chicken Loop with the tube is not easy to get out of under load. In general chicken loops are hard to get out of in an emergency situation and the Tube
                                      Message 18 of 19 , Mar 12, 2002
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        P.

                                        The Chicken Loop with the tube is not easy to get out of under load. In
                                        general chicken loops are hard to get out of in an emergency situation
                                        and the Tube doesn't help.

                                        Philip

                                        Philip Mann
                                        Inland Sea Windsurf Co.
                                        http://www.inlandsea.com
                                        Kitesite.net
                                        http://www.kitesite.net
                                        toll free 888-465-2632



                                        -----Original Message-----
                                        From: Pauric [mailto:paurico@...]
                                        Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2002 6:06 AM
                                        To: ksurfschool@yahoogroups.com
                                        Subject: Re: [ksurfschool] Re: To chicken loop or not?


                                        I've seen some 2001 airblast main loops with a flexible plastic pipe.
                                        The pipe extends past the loop by an inch or so and fits *in* to the
                                        speader hook after the loop goes on. This stops the loop droping off
                                        and is relatively easy to remove under normal conditions

                                        What are people's experience of this, how hard is to to release under
                                        pressure?

                                        thanks
                                        p

                                        To: ksurfschool@yahoogroups.com
                                        cc:
                                        Subject: Re: [ksurfschool] Re: To chicken loop or not?

                                        Hung Vu <hungvu@n...> wrote:

                                        > I think Mel start to see the "light"...
                                        > It's the LOOP that is dangerous and should be banned unless they
                                        > shipped a snap shackle loop as the standard device.

                                        Actually Hung, I "saw the light" a couple of years ago after about the
                                        third time I used a 4-line sled, & have been an anti-loop snapshackle
                                        advocate ever since.

                                        AND airdoodle <matthew.hockin@...> wrote:

                                        > Any suggestions about waiting for the prolimit v.s. buying a snap
                                        > shackle today?

                                        1) Don't risk your life for the next few weeks (I just heard it will be
                                        mid-to-late April before they're here), just in case they end up working
                                        better (making you feel like you "wasted" $60, just to save a trip to
                                        the emergency room).

                                        2) An advantage to the snapshackle is that it keeps you hooked in when a
                                        loop may fall off a hook (releasable or otherwise) when you don't want
                                        it to. Advantages of the ProLimit include the ability to unhook from a
                                        trim loop when you DO want to, as well as the ability to release from a
                                        main harness line.

                                        On the snapshackle itself, www.westmarine.com # 214700 is a Wichard
                                        "trigger release" that's less expensive than the Tylaska T-8, but I
                                        still prefer # 583940 (Wichard 2673). Both require roughly equally easy
                                        modifications for kiteboarding use, but the 2673 releases just as
                                        reliably (tip pivot) at about 2/3 the price, & can be set up so pulling
                                        a "grab-ball" in ANY direction releases it. There are photos in my group
                                        file folder.

                                        Mel





                                        Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                        http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                                        Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                        http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                      • callum_downie
                                        Harder than a normal loop without the extra tubing, and a normal loop is close to imposible if you have enough power to dangerously loft you. Wipika now make
                                        Message 19 of 19 , Mar 12, 2002
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          Harder than a normal loop without the extra tubing, and a normal loop
                                          is close to imposible if you have enough power to dangerously loft
                                          you.

                                          Wipika now make these loops with a release mechanism where the loop
                                          joins the center rope to allow you to easily release, I am unsure of
                                          how reliably these release.

                                          Callum

                                          --- In ksurfschool@y..., "Pauric" <paurico@p...> wrote:
                                          > I've seen some 2001 airblast main loops with a flexible plastic
                                          pipe. The pipe extends past the loop by an inch or so and fits *in*
                                          to the speader hook after the loop goes on. This stops the loop
                                          droping off and is relatively easy to remove under normal conditions
                                          >
                                          > What are people's experience of this, how hard is to to release
                                          under pressure?
                                          >
                                          > thanks
                                          > p
                                          >
                                          > To: ksurfschool@y...
                                          > cc:
                                          > Subject: Re: [ksurfschool] Re: To chicken loop or not?
                                          >
                                          > Hung Vu <hungvu@n...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > > I think Mel start to see the "light"...
                                          > > It's the LOOP that is dangerous and should be banned unless
                                          > > they shipped
                                          > > a snap shackle loop as the standard device.
                                          >
                                          > Actually Hung, I "saw the light" a couple of years ago after about
                                          the third
                                          > time I used a 4-line sled, & have been an anti-loop snapshackle
                                          advocate
                                          > ever since.
                                          >
                                          > AND airdoodle <matthew.hockin@h...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > > Any suggestions about waiting for the prolimit v.s. buying a snap
                                          > > shackle today?
                                          >
                                          > 1) Don't risk your life for the next few weeks (I just heard it
                                          will be
                                          > mid-to-late April before they're here), just in case they end up
                                          working
                                          > better (making you feel like you "wasted" $60, just to save a trip
                                          to the
                                          > emergency room).
                                          >
                                          > 2) An advantage to the snapshackle is that it keeps you hooked in
                                          when a
                                          > loop may fall off a hook (releasable or otherwise) when you don't
                                          want it
                                          > to. Advantages of the ProLimit include the ability to unhook from a
                                          trim
                                          > loop when you DO want to, as well as the ability to release from a
                                          main
                                          > harness line.
                                          >
                                          > On the snapshackle itself, www.westmarine.com # 214700 is a
                                          Wichard "trigger
                                          > release" that's less expensive than the Tylaska T-8, but I still
                                          prefer #
                                          > 583940 (Wichard 2673). Both require roughly equally easy
                                          modifications for
                                          > kiteboarding use, but the 2673 releases just as reliably (tip
                                          pivot) at
                                          > about 2/3 the price, & can be set up so pulling a "grab-ball" in ANY
                                          > direction releases it. There are photos in my group file folder.
                                          >
                                          > Mel
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                          http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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