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Re: [ksurfschool] Using C-Quad:

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  • Hung Vu
    ... Given the price of the complete set of bladders is around $100 USD, why are the Wipika/Naish kites are so expensive compare to the C-Quad (both are single
    Message 1 of 9 , Jun 8, 2000
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      Mark Frasier wrote:
      > The most important points are: C Quads are cheap and high-performance, but
      > more demanding to fly and don't normally relaunch from water. Naish AR 3.5s
      > are easier to fly (for someone starting out, or so I'm told, I know I can't
      > fly 'em worth crap), do normally relaunch from water and perform well
      > enough to be of use, but are expensive. Right?

      Given the price of the complete set of bladders is around $100 USD, why
      are the Wipika/Naish kites are so expensive compare to the C-Quad (both
      are single skin kites, the only somewhat "construction" difference is
      the bladders versus battens) ? Is it something to do with the Wipika's
      patent? If so, when will the patent expire such that we can have more
      affordable gear for the beginners?

      Hung.
    • Mark Frasier
      ... The C Quad is patented as well, I think, or at least a patent has been applied for. Most of the CQ s are made in China, I don t know if the same is true of
      Message 2 of 9 , Jun 8, 2000
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        At 08:58 PM 06/08/2000 -0400, Hung Vu wrote:
        >Mark Frasier wrote:
        >> The most important points are: C Quads are cheap and high-performance, but
        >> more demanding to fly and don't normally relaunch from water. Naish AR 3.5s
        >> are easier to fly (for someone starting out, or so I'm told, I know I can't
        >> fly 'em worth crap), do normally relaunch from water and perform well
        >> enough to be of use, but are expensive. Right?
        >
        >Given the price of the complete set of bladders is around $100 USD, why
        >are the Wipika/Naish kites are so expensive compare to the C-Quad (both
        >are single skin kites, the only somewhat "construction" difference is
        >the bladders versus battens) ? Is it something to do with the Wipika's
        >patent? If so, when will the patent expire such that we can have more
        >affordable gear for the beginners?

        The C Quad is patented as well, I think, or at least a patent has been
        applied for.

        Most of the CQ's are made in China, I don't know if the same is true of
        Wipikas. The construction of a C Quad doesn't require much difficult
        sewing. The tubes for the spars are simply strips of dacron, no curves, no
        reinforcements except for a small patch of kevlar on the very end. The
        bridle lines are not attached to tabs that must be sewn on, but are simply
        threaded through the dacron sleeve and tied around the spars. Wipikas have
        reinforcement patches (around the valve openings, for example) that need to
        be glued &/or stitched. Since there are fewer bridle attachment points they
        need to be heavily reenforced there, too. They have to come with a pump.
        Bars are more expensive than handles. C Quads don't come with a "saftey"
        leash. Peter Lynn has been buying huge quantities of kite fabric for many
        years. They have also been making large numbers of kites for many years.
        Wipika may have been the original production marine wing, but they are
        barely getting started in the kite business compared to Peter Lynn Co., at
        least in terms of number of kites made.

        On the other hand, CQuads have more panels to be sewn together and more
        bridle lines to be tied.

        Also, there is a lot more fabric in a Wipika that powers me in 15 mph of
        wind (8.5m) than in a CQuad that powers me in that much (4.2 m). But even
        so, a Wipika 8.5 (flat) is twice as expensive as a CQuad 8.5(projected).

        The Wipika seems to have been designed with easy relaunching and stable,
        slow flying as the two main points. Cost of construction may not have been
        one of the original design requirements, so it may take them some time to
        refine the process, get different materials at better prices, use different
        labor pools, etc. C Quads were designed for low cost and high performance.
        Both kites have accomplished their tasks, I think.

        Mark Frasier
      • Dave Raue
        You bet your ass its because of the patent. They can charge whatever they want and they got no direct competition cause nobody can copy the overall design.
        Message 3 of 9 , Jun 9, 2000
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          You bet your ass its because of the patent. They can charge whatever they
          want and they got no direct competition cause nobody can copy the overall
          design. Look how many foils are out there. It's not an accident.

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Hung Vu" <hungvu@...>
          To: <ksurfschool@egroups.com>
          Sent: Thursday, June 08, 2000 8:58 PM
          Subject: Re: [ksurfschool] Using C-Quad:


          > Mark Frasier wrote:
          > > The most important points are: C Quads are cheap and high-performance,
          but
          > > more demanding to fly and don't normally relaunch from water. Naish AR
          3.5s
          > > are easier to fly (for someone starting out, or so I'm told, I know I
          can't
          > > fly 'em worth crap), do normally relaunch from water and perform well
          > > enough to be of use, but are expensive. Right?
          >
          > Given the price of the complete set of bladders is around $100 USD, why
          > are the Wipika/Naish kites are so expensive compare to the C-Quad (both
          > are single skin kites, the only somewhat "construction" difference is
          > the bladders versus battens) ? Is it something to do with the Wipika's
          > patent? If so, when will the patent expire such that we can have more
          > affordable gear for the beginners?
          >
          > Hung.
          >
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          >
          >
        • kennyfarnsworth@cs.com
          I agree that the C-Quad offers good value. I am sure that Peter Lynn is working on a great water relaunchable kite. In the meantime, there is a ram air kite
          Message 4 of 9 , Jun 11, 2000
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            I agree that the C-Quad offers good value. I am sure that Peter Lynn is
            working on a great water relaunchable kite. In the meantime, there is a ram
            air kite that I would recommend even for beginners. The Concept Air New Wave
            is an excellent water relaunchable kite. It is not cheap, but less expensive
            than the Wipika or Naish Kites. It is a much more stable flyer and offers
            good power control. It has 3 lines, 2 for steering and the center is a brake
            line. The kite is much easier to relaunch than a Naish or Wipika. If it
            falls to the water, all I have to do is either puff up the kite by rowing on
            the lines or if it comes down on its nose I just pull the brake line and it
            reverses back up into the air. It makes me feel like a magician after
            hassling with my Naish kites. I can steer the kite into the power zone and
            just park it and ride. There are a couple downsides to the New Wave. One is
            that it cannot sit on the water for more than 10 minutes or so. So, if you
            experience a long lull or get your lines seriously twisted, you may need to
            swim for shore because the kite will begin to take on water. However, it is
            easy to drain and deflate the kite because it has Velcro closures to let out
            water and air. 2. You have more tiny bridle lines that can become tangled.
            I keep my flying lines permanently attached to the kites bridles lines to
            prevent the bridle lines from getting all twisted together.

            I have a 9.3 CA New Wave. Yesterday, I took it to a local lake (Jordanelle
            Reservoir) and I was able to get up and plane in 7-8 mph winds on my Naish 7'
            6" board. It was incredible to be surfing in such light winds. There was no
            chop on the water and the wind was barely noticeable.

            Kenny
          • Mark Frasier
            ... They have the Waterfoil (which is available now) that is a traditional valved foil like the New Wave. Like the New Wave it is supposed to be very easy to
            Message 5 of 9 , Jun 11, 2000
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              At 11:07 AM 06/11/2000 EDT, kennyfarnsworth@... wrote:
              >I agree that the C-Quad offers good value. I am sure that Peter Lynn is
              >working on a great water relaunchable kite.

              They have the Waterfoil (which is available now) that is a traditional
              valved foil like the New Wave. Like the New Wave it is supposed to be very
              easy to relaunch, and fairly stable, but the New Wave is supposed to have a
              much better depowering system.

              PL is also working on the Arc - a double skin sled (like a cross between a
              Naish and a New Wave) that is very depowerable, fast (i.e. good upwind
              angle) & very hard to luff. Also easy to relaunch, they say.

              I'm really hoping to get a chance to try a New Wave. They sound great. A
              lot of people are very happy with them.

              Mark Frasier

              >In the meantime, there is a ram
              >air kite that I would recommend even for beginners. The Concept Air New
              Wave
              >is an excellent water relaunchable kite. It is not cheap, but less
              expensive
              >than the Wipika or Naish Kites. It is a much more stable flyer and offers
              >good power control. It has 3 lines, 2 for steering and the center is a
              brake
              >line. The kite is much easier to relaunch than a Naish or Wipika. If it
              >falls to the water, all I have to do is either puff up the kite by rowing on
              >the lines or if it comes down on its nose I just pull the brake line and it
              >reverses back up into the air. It makes me feel like a magician after
              >hassling with my Naish kites. I can steer the kite into the power zone and
              >just park it and ride. There are a couple downsides to the New Wave. One
              is
              >that it cannot sit on the water for more than 10 minutes or so. So, if you
              >experience a long lull or get your lines seriously twisted, you may need to
              >swim for shore because the kite will begin to take on water. However, it is
              >easy to drain and deflate the kite because it has Velcro closures to let out
              >water and air. 2. You have more tiny bridle lines that can become tangled.
              >I keep my flying lines permanently attached to the kites bridles lines to
              >prevent the bridle lines from getting all twisted together.
              >
              >I have a 9.3 CA New Wave. Yesterday, I took it to a local lake (Jordanelle
              >Reservoir) and I was able to get up and plane in 7-8 mph winds on my Naish
              7'
              >6" board. It was incredible to be surfing in such light winds. There was
              no
              >chop on the water and the wind was barely noticeable.
              >
              >Kenny
              >
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            • kennyfarnsworth@cs.com
              Mark, If you are ever in Utah, you are welcome to use my New Wave. Thanks for the info. on the Waterfoil and the new kites Peter Lynn is working on. I think
              Message 6 of 9 , Jun 11, 2000
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                Mark,

                If you are ever in Utah, you are welcome to use my New Wave. Thanks for the
                info. on the Waterfoil and the new kites Peter Lynn is working on.

                I think that all kites currently available have so many compromises. It will
                be interesting to see which design comes to the forefront. Currently, the
                Naish AR-5's are all the rage, but I have to believe there are going to be
                some far superior kites available in the next few years.

                Kenny
              • arielmas
                Kenny: all you said about the Concep Air New Wave sounds to me very similar with the F One. Are they identical? and another one, How many meters do you
                Message 7 of 9 , Jun 12, 2000
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                  Kenny:  all you said about the Concep Air New Wave sounds to me very similar with the F One.  Are they identical?  and another one,   How many meters do you use in your lines ?
                   
                  Ariel
                • Farnsworth, Kenny
                  I am not familiar with the F One. Maybe Hung can answer that question. I haven t measured my lines, but I would guess that they are 30 meter lines. Kenny ...
                  Message 8 of 9 , Jun 12, 2000
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                    I am not familiar with the F One.  Maybe Hung can answer that question.  I haven't measured my lines, but I would guess that they are 30 meter lines.
                     
                    Kenny
                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: arielmas [mailto:arielmas@...]
                    Sent: Monday, June 12, 2000 8:14 AM
                    To: ksurfschool@egroups.com
                    Subject: RE: [ksurfschool] Using C-Quad:

                    Kenny:  all you said about the Concep Air New Wave sounds to me very similar with the F One.  Are they identical?  and another one,   How many meters do you use in your lines ?
                     
                    Ariel


                  • kennyfarnsworth@cs.com
                    In a message dated 6/12/00 8:16:35 AM Mountain Daylight Time, arielmas@ciudad.com.ar writes:
                    Message 9 of 9 , Jun 18, 2000
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                      In a message dated 6/12/00 8:16:35 AM Mountain Daylight Time,
                      arielmas@... writes:

                      << Kenny: all you said about the Concep Air New Wave sounds to me very
                      similar with the F One. Are they identical? and another one, How many
                      meters do you use in your lines ?

                      Ariel >>

                      Ariel,
                      I have not tried the F One, nor do any of my friends have one. I use 30
                      meter lines with a 3 line setup. Works great, now that I have figured out
                      how to adjust it properly so that it does not luff overhead.

                      Kenny
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