Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [ksurfschool] Re: Help regarding safety system for new bar. COM

Expand Messages
  • Mel
    ... That s not really the case, since if your snap shackle fails to release it s still attached to your spreader, which only releases on one side. Also, as
    Message 1 of 28 , Oct 8, 2001
    • 0 Attachment
      <surfsup@...> wrote:

      > I would like to add that I bought a proline seat harness which has a
      > safety release on the spreader bar. I can pull a velcro loop and the
      > spreader bar releases from the harness. So in effect, I have two
      > safetys at the harness level.

      That's not really the case, since if your snap shackle fails to release it's
      still attached to your spreader, which only releases on one side. Also, as
      Brian pointed out, the spreader may not even release you from a plain
      harness line (it was not designed to do so, only for easy manual
      entry/exit).

      > At some point, I will get the 2673
      > Wichard. I have no problem spending the extra cash.

      Good

      Mel
    • Mel
      ... Then I guess I should mention that they should be replaced while riding (to cushion any impact & so they don t get ripped right off). ... We ve all been
      Message 2 of 28 , Oct 8, 2001
      • 0 Attachment
        <surfsup@...> wrote:

        > > "Just since it appears on your photo, I'm sure you're aware that the
        > > neoprene caps on the end winders are meant to go OVER the line, once
        > > it's wound onto the bar."
        >
        > -Hah! No I didn't!

        Then I guess I should mention that they should be replaced while riding (to
        cushion any impact & so they don't get ripped right off).

        > what a kook I am...

        We've all been "kook's" at some time or other. Just the other day I
        couldn't believe it took me so long to figure out how* to prevent my 2673
        from prematurely releasing.
        * By feeding the release line through the "B" opening.

        > -I read this before, so that's why I "larks head" attached the ball to
        > the line so it can quickly be changed for the ARC i'm expecting to be
        > delivered this week. Is there a way to do your setup in the picture
        > that is adjustable since I'll be using the same bar for both the
        > Sligshot Fuel 140 and the ARC 640?

        No matter what, without Q-Line, you have to sleeve it. Using your cool idea
        of a "captured clove hitch" around a very short length of line*, you should
        be able to easily slide it to wherever you want, sleeving & all.

        *I think you had a stopper ball on that short line, but with 2 figure-8s on
        it, you might not even need a ball, depending on the size of the opening of
        the shackle on your pulley - just check to see if it will stop it with a bit
        of tension)

        > > "In which case* you may as well just larks head the trim loop around
        > > the closed end of the snap shackle, & "snap" the opening end directly
        > > to your spreader hook. (by the way, how's it held to the hook now?)"
        >
        > -I don't understand, you're saying you should be attached at all times
        > in the loop? Sometimes I am not attached, but since you're asking,
        > with another metal ring that I tie on with a small piece of 1"
        > webbing.

        So you sometimes hook the spreader into the huge o-ring on the trim line?
        You realize that it's impossible to get out of that ring when you really
        need to, right? That's the whole purpose of the snap shackle, so I guess I
        AM saying you should be attached at all times (with a snap shackle that
        releases RELIABLY), in which case you can do away with the huge o-ring
        (lark's head the fixed end of the snap shackle in it's place), and the
        "other metal ring" (by "snapping" the shackle directly to the harness hook -
        yes it's barely off-center, but you can adjust your harness webbing to
        compensate if you really wanted).

        > I am actually concerned about the extra length to the sheet
        > line with the webbing, the O ring, the shackle at the harness, and the
        > O ring with the triple line at the pulley. Does this extra length
        > affect the kite's flying characteristics?

        Yes. You won't be able to sheet in as far if you have too much "stuff" on
        the line between the bar & the spreader, until you switch to a "free bar"
        (no line through the bar).

        > (your suggestion to tie the
        > green line directly to the pulley and feed the red line attached to
        > the ring through the opening will eliminate the upper extra length -

        That length could be compensated for by adjusting at the cleat (which, by
        the way, reduces your ability to sheet OUT, until you switch to a free bar).

        > > What's the traffic like where you ride?
        >
        > -Right now I have been flying on land, the board is still dry. I pick
        > a LARGE open field to be safe. No one around at all. I'm controlling
        > the kite fine, though (except for the 25 mph day!). This AM was 1-3
        > mph with a 5-8 mph gust here and there. I could get the kite up for
        > about 30 seconds to a couple minutes, but then dead calm and it would
        > fall like a leaf from a tree....

        Actually light wind can be really good for certain types of practice, like
        really low passes, parallel to the ground, back & forth, which gives a good
        approximation of the feel while riding.

        > "I'd suggest moving the black rigging ball about 4" in from the end of
        > the trim line, where it comes out of the cleat, so if you accidentally
        > let it slip on the water, & the ball goes all the way to the cleat,
        > you'll have half a chance of pulling it back out to back off from full
        > power setting."
        >
        > I'm trying to understand this one...You're saying from the photo
        > (fullbar.jpg) to halve the distance of the trim line measured from the
        > black ball to the cleat?

        Let me try again: You want to always have a stopper knot (or ball, although
        in this case a plain knot would be fine) far enough from the end of the
        line, that when that knot is doing it's job (keeping the line from slipping
        completely through) there's still enough line exposed to grab & pull it back
        out again. Ideally, it's usually best to have one knot to stop it, &
        another at the very end, to grab when you're trying to pull it back out
        again.

        > To accomplish this I should, in effect,
        > lengthen the trim line?

        You may need to lengthen the line to compensate for the new knot position.
        I'm a little curious what adjustment system you had before (webbing strap?)
        & why you eliminated it.

        > I'm glad you brought this up, since I'm
        > clueless about the trim line and what it should be set for. Also, the
        > sheeting range seems VERY small to this rookie. Almost negligible.
        > What am I missing? Should I be adjusting the front lines to a certain
        > length relative to the rear lines?

        You DEFINITELY want to be able to sheet out enough to make the rear lines
        slack, even in strong wind when the TE pulls away more, & you should also be
        able to sheet IN enough to make the FRONT lines slack (on an inflatable),
        although depending on the model, size, & your weight, that may be a bit more
        than needed for normal riding.

        Mel
      • surfsup@ragingbull.com
        Mel, In terms of the strength of the 800 lb. line, I am referring to it fraying, etc. But the sleeve of a PVC pipe will prevent that, as well, so that s all I
        Message 3 of 28 , Oct 9, 2001
        • 0 Attachment
          Mel,

          In terms of the strength of the 800 lb. line, I am referring to it
          fraying, etc. But the sleeve of a PVC pipe will prevent that, as
          well, so that's all I need to do, you're right there...as usual!

          >>"*I think you had a stopper ball on that short line, but with 2
          figure-8s on it, you might not even need a ball,..."

          You're right, I may not need the ball. I'll look into it and let ya
          know...

          >>"<b>So you sometimes hook the spreader into the huge o-ring on the
          trim line?</b>"

          No, I meant another O ring that was not pictured that I used to fit
          into the snap shackle from the harness with 1" webbing. But I am
          going to snap right into the harness, I guess. I didn't think you
          were supposed to be snapped in. I saw some videos on the internet and
          on the "How to Rip" video that showed guys unhooking and then hooking
          back in. I thought that was normal. Also, a lot of guys are talking
          about not even using the smart loop on the other thread. As a rookie,
          I will snap in, though. I know, I know..."Bad rookie, Bad rookie..."

          >>"Let me try again: You want to always have a stopper knot (or ball,
          although in this case a plain knot would be fine) far enough from the
          end of the line, that when that knot is doing it's job (keeping the
          line from slipping completely through) there's still enough line
          exposed to grab & pull it back out again. Ideally, it's usually best
          to have one knot to stop it, & another at the very end, to grab when
          you're trying to pull it back out again."

          Dammit, Mel! Another great idea...I got it. Leave four inches of rope
          hanging past the ball so if it goes all the way to the cleat, you can
          still grab it to pull it!

          One Q regarding this, however. As I said before, it doesn't seem like
          there's much more than about 5 inches of sheeting length since the
          line is doubled-up out to the pulley and back to the cleat. So for
          each two inches of sheeting, there is only one inch of sheet actually
          occuring. If I do this, it will severely limit what sheeting range I
          have, which is about 5 inches MAX.

          >>"You DEFINITELY want to be able to sheet out enough to make the
          rear lines slack, even in strong wind when the TE pulls away more, &
          you should also be able to sheet IN enough to make the FRONT lines
          slack (on an inflatable), although depending on the model, size, &
          your weight, that may be a bit more than needed for normal riding."

          So how much sheeting (inches) should I expect to need? I will go home
          tonight after work and post how much range there is. This is a bar
          stock from Slingshot (er, was, before all the changes) and I haven't
          done anything to the configuration of the smart loop, cleat, pulley,
          or sheet-length at all.

          V
        • surfsup@ragingbull.com
          With the extra O ring that the snap shackle was clipped on, I did have the two to release, but now that I will go directly to the harness with the snapshackle,
          Message 4 of 28 , Oct 9, 2001
          • 0 Attachment
            With the extra O ring that the snap shackle was clipped on, I did
            have the two to release, but now that I will go directly to the
            harness with the snapshackle, it will be the shackle, or nothing...

            Wind is blowing up this week at a steady 12-25 mph each day for the
            last few days. I want the ARC to do the testing. Hopefully it will be
            here soon!


            --- In ksurfschool@y..., Mel <kitebord@p...> wrote:
            > <surfsup@r...> wrote:
            >
            > > I would like to add that I bought a proline seat harness which
            has a
            > > safety release on the spreader bar. I can pull a velcro loop and
            the
            > > spreader bar releases from the harness. So in effect, I have two
            > > safetys at the harness level.
            >
            > That's not really the case, since if your snap shackle fails to
            release it's
            > still attached to your spreader, which only releases on one side.
            Also, as
            > Brian pointed out, the spreader may not even release you from a
            plain
            > harness line (it was not designed to do so, only for easy manual
            > entry/exit).
            >
            > > At some point, I will get the 2673
            > > Wichard. I have no problem spending the extra cash.
            >
            > Good
            >
            > Mel
          • surfsup@ragingbull.com
            I m pissed! I wrote a nice reply and Yahoo never posted it. So this ... figure-8s on it, you might not even need a ball,... You re right. I ll look into that.
            Message 5 of 28 , Oct 9, 2001
            • 0 Attachment
              I'm pissed! I wrote a nice reply and Yahoo never posted it. So this
              one will be shorter:

              >>"*I think you had a stopper ball on that short line, but with 2
              figure-8s on it, you might not even need a ball,..."

              You're right. I'll look into that.

              >>"So you sometimes hook the spreader into the huge o-ring on the
              trim line? You realize that it's impossible to get out of that ring
              when you really need to, right? That's the whole purpose of the snap
              shackle, so I guess I AM saying you should be attached at all times
              (with a snap shackle that releases RELIABLY), in which case you can
              do away with the huge o-ring..."

              There is another O Ring between the shackle and the harness not in
              the picture. I attach it to the shackle with 1" webbing. I will get
              rid of this O ring and snap directly into the shackle as suggested.
              Makes sense. I was watching internet videos and the "How to Rip"
              video which shows guys unhooking and hooking back into the smart loop
              so I figured I should not be permanently snapped in. But I guess as a
              rookie, I should be. I know...I know..."bad rookie. Bad"

              >>"Let me try again: You want to always have a stopper knot (or ball,
              although in this case a plain knot would be fine) far enough from the
              end of the line, that when that knot is doing it's job (keeping the
              line from slipping completely through) there's still enough line
              exposed to grab & pull it back out again. Ideally, it's usually best
              to have one knot to stop it, & another at the very end, to grab when
              you're trying to pull it back out again."

              Damn Mel! Another good idea! I've got it. Leave some rope hanging if
              the ball gets jammed up to the cleat so you can still grab it to pull
              it. Makes a lot of sense...

              >>"You may need to lengthen the line to compensate for the new knot
              position. I'm a little curious what adjustment system you had before
              (webbing strap?) & why you eliminated it."

              Its a stock bar from Slingshot prior to the safety modifications. I
              never made any changes to the sheet, smart loop, pulley, cleat area.
              I'm concerned about the total sheeting range. Since the sheet rope is
              doubled-up out of the cleat to the pullet and back to the cleat, for
              each inch I sheet in/out, it results in only a half-inch of actual
              sheeting distance. So since the total distance of the sheet rope from
              the cleat to the pulley back to the cleat is about a foot, there's
              only 5-6 inches of sheetable rope there. Doesn't seem like much to
              me. Do I need to lengthen this rope?

              >>"You DEFINITELY want to be able to sheet out enough to make the
              rear lines slack, even in strong wind when the TE pulls away more, &
              you should also be able to sheet IN enough to make the FRONT lines
              slack (on an inflatable), although depending on the model, size, &
              your weight, that may be a bit more than needed for normal riding."

              See, I don't think there's enough to accomplish what you say here.
              I'll measure the total length of the sheet rope and post it tonight
              after work.

              V



              --- In ksurfschool@y..., Mel <kitebord@p...> wrote:
              > <surfsup@r...> wrote:
              >
              > > > "Just since it appears on your photo, I'm sure you're aware
              that the
              > > > neoprene caps on the end winders are meant to go OVER the line,
              once
              > > > it's wound onto the bar."
              > >
              > > -Hah! No I didn't!
              >
              > Then I guess I should mention that they should be replaced while
              riding (to
              > cushion any impact & so they don't get ripped right off).
              >
              > > what a kook I am...
              >
              > We've all been "kook's" at some time or other. Just the other day I
              > couldn't believe it took me so long to figure out how* to prevent
              my 2673
              > from prematurely releasing.
              > * By feeding the release line through the "B" opening.
              >
              > > -I read this before, so that's why I "larks head" attached the
              ball to
              > > the line so it can quickly be changed for the ARC i'm expecting
              to be
              > > delivered this week. Is there a way to do your setup in the
              picture
              > > that is adjustable since I'll be using the same bar for both the
              > > Sligshot Fuel 140 and the ARC 640?
              >
              > No matter what, without Q-Line, you have to sleeve it. Using your
              cool idea
              > of a "captured clove hitch" around a very short length of line*,
              you should
              > be able to easily slide it to wherever you want, sleeving & all.
              >
              > *I think you had a stopper ball on that short line, but with 2
              figure-8s on
              > it, you might not even need a ball, depending on the size of the
              opening of
              > the shackle on your pulley - just check to see if it will stop it
              with a bit
              > of tension)
              >
              > > > "In which case* you may as well just larks head the trim loop
              around
              > > > the closed end of the snap shackle, & "snap" the opening end
              directly
              > > > to your spreader hook. (by the way, how's it held to the hook
              now?)"
              > >
              > > -I don't understand, you're saying you should be attached at all
              times
              > > in the loop? Sometimes I am not attached, but since you're asking,
              > > with another metal ring that I tie on with a small piece of 1"
              > > webbing.
              >
              > So you sometimes hook the spreader into the huge o-ring on the trim
              line?
              > You realize that it's impossible to get out of that ring when you
              really
              > need to, right? That's the whole purpose of the snap shackle, so I
              guess I
              > AM saying you should be attached at all times (with a snap shackle
              that
              > releases RELIABLY), in which case you can do away with the huge o-
              ring
              > (lark's head the fixed end of the snap shackle in it's place), and
              the
              > "other metal ring" (by "snapping" the shackle directly to the
              harness hook -
              > yes it's barely off-center, but you can adjust your harness webbing
              to
              > compensate if you really wanted).
              >
              > > I am actually concerned about the extra length to the sheet
              > > line with the webbing, the O ring, the shackle at the harness,
              and the
              > > O ring with the triple line at the pulley. Does this extra length
              > > affect the kite's flying characteristics?
              >
              > Yes. You won't be able to sheet in as far if you have too
              much "stuff" on
              > the line between the bar & the spreader, until you switch to
              a "free bar"
              > (no line through the bar).
              >
              > > (your suggestion to tie the
              > > green line directly to the pulley and feed the red line attached
              to
              > > the ring through the opening will eliminate the upper extra
              length -
              >
              > That length could be compensated for by adjusting at the cleat
              (which, by
              > the way, reduces your ability to sheet OUT, until you switch to a
              free bar).
              >
              > > > What's the traffic like where you ride?
              > >
              > > -Right now I have been flying on land, the board is still dry. I
              pick
              > > a LARGE open field to be safe. No one around at all. I'm
              controlling
              > > the kite fine, though (except for the 25 mph day!). This AM was 1-
              3
              > > mph with a 5-8 mph gust here and there. I could get the kite up
              for
              > > about 30 seconds to a couple minutes, but then dead calm and it
              would
              > > fall like a leaf from a tree....
              >
              > Actually light wind can be really good for certain types of
              practice, like
              > really low passes, parallel to the ground, back & forth, which
              gives a good
              > approximation of the feel while riding.
              >
              > > "I'd suggest moving the black rigging ball about 4" in from the
              end of
              > > the trim line, where it comes out of the cleat, so if you
              accidentally
              > > let it slip on the water, & the ball goes all the way to the
              cleat,
              > > you'll have half a chance of pulling it back out to back off from
              full
              > > power setting."
              > >
              > > I'm trying to understand this one...You're saying from the photo
              > > (fullbar.jpg) to halve the distance of the trim line measured
              from the
              > > black ball to the cleat?
              >
              > Let me try again: You want to always have a stopper knot (or ball,
              although
              > in this case a plain knot would be fine) far enough from the end of
              the
              > line, that when that knot is doing it's job (keeping the line from
              slipping
              > completely through) there's still enough line exposed to grab &
              pull it back
              > out again. Ideally, it's usually best to have one knot to stop it,
              &
              > another at the very end, to grab when you're trying to pull it back
              out
              > again.
              >
              > > To accomplish this I should, in effect,
              > > lengthen the trim line?
              >
              > You may need to lengthen the line to compensate for the new knot
              position.
              > I'm a little curious what adjustment system you had before (webbing
              strap?)
              > & why you eliminated it.
              >
              > > I'm glad you brought this up, since I'm
              > > clueless about the trim line and what it should be set for. Also,
              the
              > > sheeting range seems VERY small to this rookie. Almost negligible.
              > > What am I missing? Should I be adjusting the front lines to a
              certain
              > > length relative to the rear lines?
              >
              > You DEFINITELY want to be able to sheet out enough to make the rear
              lines
              > slack, even in strong wind when the TE pulls away more, & you
              should also be
              > able to sheet IN enough to make the FRONT lines slack (on an
              inflatable),
              > although depending on the model, size, & your weight, that may be a
              bit more
              > than needed for normal riding.
              >
              > Mel
            • Mel
              ... I guess you could say that s normal , since most stock & even aftermarket systems come set up for that (actual trim LOOP to hook into). The problem is,
              Message 6 of 28 , Oct 9, 2001
              • 0 Attachment
                <surfsup@...> wrote:

                > I'm pissed! I wrote a nice reply and Yahoo never posted it.

                Relax. It came through, & my responses are with it below:

                > I didn't think you
                > were supposed to be snapped in. I saw some videos on the internet and
                > on the "How to Rip" video that showed guys unhooking and then hooking
                > back in. I thought that was normal.

                I guess you could say that's "normal", since most stock & even aftermarket
                systems come set up for that (actual trim LOOP to hook into). The problem
                is, when you most need to get OUT of it in a dangerous emergency, it's
                impossible, whereas a snap shackle can pretty much always be released.

                > Also, a lot of guys are talking
                > about not even using the smart loop on the other thread. As a rookie,
                > I will snap in, though. I know, I know..."Bad rookie, Bad rookie..."

                If you're snap-shackled in, & want to lock in a fixed sheeting angle, all
                you have to do is hook into the main harness line.

                > it doesn't seem like
                > there's much more than about 5 inches of sheeting length since the
                > line is doubled-up out to the pulley and back to the cleat. So for
                > each two inches of sheeting, there is only one inch of sheet actually
                > occuring. If I do this, it will severely limit what sheeting range I
                > have, which is about 5 inches MAX.

                You could replace the line with a longer one. There's no need to sew a loop
                in the bottom for the snap shackle, just tie it on with a bowline. If you
                can't get replacement line by the foot locally, & you're concerned about a
                different type of line wearing out before you switch to a "free" bar, just
                get a Holt-Allen stancion fairlead, or even just a plain stainless eyebolt
                to run the line through instead of running it through the hole in the bar.

                > >>"You DEFINITELY want to be able to sheet out enough to make the
                > rear ... or ... the FRONT lines
                > slack ..."

                > So how much sheeting (inches) should I expect to need?

                I think most stock systems come with about 8" or so of sheeting, & about the
                same amount of adjustment range, in addition to that (but I can't check
                without rebooting, since my Word software won't open for me to read my log,
                where I recorded the stock measurements). I consider that to be somewhat
                minimal, for beginners (I definitely liked having 12" or more of adjustment,
                although NOW I use MUCH less, even on an inflatable - but both as a beginner
                AND as an advanced rider now, I've ALWAYS liked a LOT of manual sheeting
                range - up to 24" with an ARC, although I think 18", or even 12 may be
                sufficient for me now with an inflatable). Now that I think of it,
                Slingshot 4-line kites have rather narrow tips, which limits angle of attack
                range (unfortunately), so you may not need that much movement to cover its
                entire range. Your ARC is another matter (as noted above), although again,
                you may not need as much as me, since I'm on an 840 & yours is a 630.

                > I will go home
                > tonight after work and post how much range there is. This is a bar
                > stock from Slingshot (er, was, before all the changes) and I haven't
                > done anything to the configuration of the smart loop, cleat, pulley,
                > or sheet-length at all.

                I didn't know that SlingShots came stock with a pulley & cleat for
                adjustment. You may be able to get a bit more line "free" by unpicking the
                stitches on the (now unused) trim loop, & just tying the end of it through
                the fixed end of the snap shackle with a bowline (as long as you don't want
                to use the more safe wrist-activated release).

                Mel
              • Mel
                ... Most inflatable riders still use a solid main harness line on the bar*, to ride with a locked in, fixed sheeting angle, so if you re hooked into it,
                Message 7 of 28 , Oct 9, 2001
                • 0 Attachment
                  <surfsup@...> wrote:

                  > With the extra O ring that the snap shackle was clipped on, I did
                  > have the two to release, but now that I will go directly to the
                  > harness with the snapshackle, it will be the shackle, or nothing...

                  Most inflatable riders still use a solid "main" harness line on the bar*, to
                  ride with a locked in, fixed sheeting angle, so if you're hooked into it,
                  you'd need a harness hook that's able to release from that line, if you want
                  to be able to safely exit while hooked into it. Did that make sense?

                  *which is what I thought you were referring to when you wrote about using
                  the spreader's release to get out of the harness line.

                  Mel
                Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.