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Re: [ksurfschool] Re: Help regarding safety system for new bar. COM

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  • Mel
    ... That s all well & good, but if you get killed because you couldn t find the release when getting dragged into the rocks upside down & backwards, don t come
    Message 1 of 28 , Oct 6, 2001
      <surfsup@...> wrpte:

      > I ski, surf, parasail, parachute, scuba, snow board, semi-pro
      > beach volleyball ... rock climb, downhill mountainbike, ...
      > etc etc... I've been pinned to the ocean floor by huge waves,
      > had leashes wrapped around me and dragged underwater, etc. and just
      > feel I can handle the "grab ball" approach from the onset.

      That's all well & good, but if you get killed because you couldn't find the
      release when getting dragged into the rocks upside down & backwards, don't
      come crying to me. All I'm suggesting is it's a better idea to at least
      START with a wrist activated release. After you've been nearly drowned, &
      determined that even then you could have found & grabbed a ball, THEN remove
      the wrist release. Just my opinion. It's use is obviously up to you.

      > Don't worry, I'll test and re-test the system once done many times in
      > an open area before taking the kite near anyone else. I'm getting
      > fairly good at controlling the kite so far...

      Don't forget that no matter HOW good you get at controlling the kite, you
      can NEVER control the WIND.

      Mel
    • surfsup@ragingbull.com
      Mel, Both are very good points and well received. I ve got the grab ball attached to a longer line which goes to my wrist for the time being. Unfortunately, I
      Message 2 of 28 , Oct 6, 2001
        Mel,

        Both are very good points and well received. I've got the grab ball
        attached to a longer line which goes to my wrist for the time being.
        Unfortunately, I think the grab ball is actually better in my current
        situation since the only Wichard snap shackle that I could find was
        not the 2763 model, it was a different one - the 2473 swivel eye
        (third graphic down):

        http://www.wichard-usa.com/Catalog/HR_Snap_Shackles.htm

        With the spring loaded pin, it releases easier with the grab ball by
        pulling it sideways across the body. With the wrist attachment, its
        much harder to release since I was pulling it at an agle to the pin's
        axis, which seemed to be creating a lot of friction on the pin from
        the load the kite placed on the unit.

        The wind was strong, very strong. In fact, the winds here are 16 mph
        with gust of 25 mph. I took out my Slingshot Fuel 140 which was
        waaaaay too big. I put it up by myself and it immediately started
        dragging me across the field. My shoes couldn't get any grip since
        the kite wanted to lift me. A gust hit which pulled me up and off the
        ground. I was dragged on my knees a bit and recovered. Sensing too
        much power, I immediately flew the kite to the edge of the window and
        gently put it on the ground where I unhooked and began approaching the
        kite.

        At this point, the wind shifted abot 45 degrees and filled the kite
        with air while I was holding the lines approaching the kite. I let the
        lines slide through my hand until the bar came up and pulled the
        upwind steer line to keep the kite pointed into the wind until the
        high winds reduced and shifted back. I was then able to pack up the
        kite.

        The ARC 640 would have been perfect today. I only flew the kite for a
        few minutes. Unfortunately, I didn't have the correct conditions to
        test the safety system thoroughly.

        Hopefully the wind will not persist at such levels tomorrow...or I'll
        have to wait for the ARC to arrive this week prior to flying again
        next weekend. I'd like to test what I've built, though.

        I'll take photos my setup for you to critique tonight when I have a
        chance and upload to the "surfsup" directory. I'll post again when its
        uploaded there.

        V


        --- In ksurfschool@y..., Mel <kitebord@p...> wrote:
        > <surfsup@r...> wrpte:
        >
        > > I ski, surf, parasail, parachute, scuba, snow board, semi-pro
        > > beach volleyball ... rock climb, downhill mountainbike, ...
        > > etc etc... I've been pinned to the ocean floor by huge waves,
        > > had leashes wrapped around me and dragged underwater, etc. and
        just
        > > feel I can handle the "grab ball" approach from the onset.
        >
        > That's all well & good, but if you get killed because you couldn't
        find the
        > release when getting dragged into the rocks upside down & backwards,
        don't
        > come crying to me. All I'm suggesting is it's a better idea to at
        least
        > START with a wrist activated release. After you've been nearly
        drowned, &
        > determined that even then you could have found & grabbed a ball,
        THEN remove
        > the wrist release. Just my opinion. It's use is obviously up to
        you.
        >
        > > Don't worry, I'll test and re-test the system once done many times
        in
        > > an open area before taking the kite near anyone else. I'm getting
        > > fairly good at controlling the kite so far...
        >
        > Don't forget that no matter HOW good you get at controlling the
        kite, you
        > can NEVER control the WIND.
        >
        > Mel
      • Alex Leonard
        Surfsup, for those of us following your safety-system construction thread - yes, please do post a photo. Could you also perhaps post a hand-drawn diagram to
        Message 3 of 28 , Oct 6, 2001
          Surfsup,
          for those of us following your safety-system construction thread -
          yes, please do post a photo. Could you also perhaps post a hand-drawn
          diagram to "interpret" the photo (maybe with part descriptions). It
          would make it a lot easier to duplicate. I for one am still a bit
          confused by the typed description - a picture might clear up some of
          the words).

          Mel,
          since you are the originator of this set-up, perhaps you would be
          willing to comment on the above posts once they hit the discussion
          group. Just to make sure we all end up building the thing right...
          Out of curiosity Mel, is this what you use?

          With safety in mind and much appreciation! Alex.
        • surfsup@ragingbull.com
          I uploaded two new files to the surfsup folder in kitesurf: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/kitesurf/files/surfsup/ click on LineRings.jpg and
          Message 4 of 28 , Oct 6, 2001
            I uploaded two new files to the "surfsup" folder in kitesurf:

            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/kitesurf/files/surfsup/

            click on "LineRings.jpg" and "Snapshackle.jpg"

            The file "diagram.jpg" was posted before-hand and is the hand written
            drawing of the safety system. Hopefully, its legible for anyone that
            wants to see it. One note of interest, Mel suggested to switch the
            location of the stopper ball and RIng #2. I had done this which is
            evident in LineRings.jpg.

            LineRings: Shows the two "O" rings at the pulley. To attach the first
            "O" ring to the pulley, I cut the extra 20 ft. leader line supplied
            with the bar up and used a piece that I triple threaded through a ring
            and the pulley, knotted with a figure "8" with a fisherman's as backup
            on each end. This should be easily seen in the photo. I then sealed
            the fisherman's at each end with a match to prevent any undoing of the
            knot (black burn on the knots). Since the line holds 600 lbs. this
            should hold no problem as a temporary ring attachment, though I'll
            take suggestions on how to attach the ring to the pulley better.

            The green LE line is attached to this first ring. The red LE line is
            attached to the second ring, which is threaded through the first ring
            and the second ring resides below (nearer the ksurfer) and stops at
            the first ring. This prevents the LE lines from being different
            lengths. Each line is the same.

            I didn't take a picture of the ball on the red line to prevent the bar
            from flying up all the way to the kite but I probably should. Here is
            how I attached the ball...

            I took a small piece of leader line and threaded it into the ball,
            knotting both ends with one end longer than the other. I then put
            another knot at the end of the longer end, just line the "adjusters"
            at the end of the leader lines on the bar with three knots. Then I
            took the red LE line and folded it, looped it back, spreaded it, and
            threaded the long end of the knotted ball line (about an inch long)
            through the hole and pulled it taut. This is currently how the ball is
            held in place approximately 3/4 to 1 times the distance of the kite
            LE.

            Not in the LineRings photo, another leash runs from the red LE ring to
            the harness.

            SnapShackle: Mel, as you can see, I am using the pin shackle, not the
            one you suggested. I can see the reasoning for your suggestion, but it
            would take a few weeks to get it and I didn't want to wait. The
            snapshackle is attached to the chicken loop via a SS O Ring. The ring
            is threaded looped through the chicken loop after the clear PVC was
            cut off (that was the most difficult part - removing the PVC cover).
            The ball is held on with some 800lb rope bought at the marine store.
            The loop at the end of the ball is where the wrist line was, but is
            now removed. I will probably put it back on for a few more times until
            I get the hang of grabbing the ball.

            Diagram.jpg shows a snapshackle at the harness to completely remove
            myself from the kite. I do not have this (yet)...

            Comments wanted...sorry for the long post.

            V

            --- In ksurfschool@y..., "Alex Leonard" <abl_2000@y...> wrote:
            > Surfsup,
            > for those of us following your safety-system construction thread -
            > yes, please do post a photo. Could you also perhaps post a
            hand-drawn
            > diagram to "interpret" the photo (maybe with part descriptions). It
            > would make it a lot easier to duplicate. I for one am still a bit
            > confused by the typed description - a picture might clear up some of
            > the words).
            >
            > Mel,
            > since you are the originator of this set-up, perhaps you would be
            > willing to comment on the above posts once they hit the discussion
            > group. Just to make sure we all end up building the thing right...
            > Out of curiosity Mel, is this what you use?
            >
            > With safety in mind and much appreciation! Alex.
          • Mel
            ... It s the 2673 I recommend, so I hope that didn t happen just because you got the numbers reversed. A friend of mine had seen my 2673, & came in all proud
            Message 5 of 28 , Oct 7, 2001
              <surfsup@...> wrote:

              > ...the only Wichard snap shackle that I could find was
              > not the 2763 model, it was a different one - the 2473 ...

              It's the 2673 I recommend, so I hope that didn't happen just because you got
              the numbers reversed. A friend of mine had seen my 2673, & came in all
              proud that he'd saved a few bucks* by getting a different unit. He tried to
              prove that it released fine, by getting me to pull on one end while he
              released (which happened to work). I then hooked it back into the OPENED
              shackle, & had him pull (it stuck), showing him how it can fail to release.
              I strongly recommend trying this with your unit: hook it into the open end,
              & TRY to make it stick with constant tension on it. We did agree that it
              was probably still safer than being hooked into a plain trim loop, that you
              can't get out of at all when overpowered.

              *negligible, compared to any hospital bill, or work time lost due to injury.

              AND Alex Leonard <abl_2000@...> wrote:

              > Mel,
              > since you are the originator of this set-up, perhaps you would be
              > willing to comment on the above posts once they hit the discussion
              > group. Just to make sure we all end up building the thing right...

              I'll certainly try. If you don't see my response, please forward it to me
              directly, preferably with "Mel" at the beginning of the subject line (I get
              hundreds of posts sometimes, & may not notice another which only shows as
              "Re: [ksurfschool] Re: Help regarding..." in my in-box)

              > Out of curiosity Mel, is this what you use?

              I use a Wichard 2673 with the release line fed through the "B" opening to a
              grab ball, but I strongly recommend starting with a wrist-activated release.
              In the past I've used MANY different snap shackle systems, always trying to
              be as simple as possible, while maintaining what I feel is sufficient safety
              for my particular needs.

              Mel
            • Mel
              ... Here s one! Eliminate the line AND O-ring, by using the shackle that s built in to the top of your pulley. In other words, just larks head the green
              Message 6 of 28 , Oct 7, 2001
                <surfsup@...> wrote:

                > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/kitesurf/files/surfsup/
                > ...
                > LineRings: Shows the two "O" rings at the pulley. To attach the first
                > "O" ring to the pulley, I cut the extra 20 ft. leader line supplied
                > ..., though I'll
                > take suggestions on how to attach the ring to the pulley better.

                Here's one! Eliminate the line AND O-ring, by using the shackle that's
                built in to the top of your pulley. In other words, just larks head the
                green sleeve over the shackle, feed the red sleeve through the shackle &
                larks head over an O-ring.

                By the way, the max working load of that Ronstan pulley is likely only about
                550 pounds (if it's a #20100), but that's typically about half the actual
                breaking load, so it should be okay.

                Just since it appears on your photo, I'm sure you're aware that the neoprene
                caps on the end winders are meant to go OVER the line, once it's wound onto
                the bar.

                > I didn't take a picture of the ball on the red line to prevent the bar
                > from flying up all the way to the kite but I probably should. Here is
                > how I attached the ball...
                >
                > I took a small piece of leader line and threaded it into the ball,
                > knotting both ends with one end longer than the other. I then put
                > another knot at the end of the longer end, just line the "adjusters"
                > at the end of the leader lines on the bar with three knots. Then I
                > took the red LE line and folded it, looped it back, spreaded it, and
                > threaded the long end of the knotted ball line (about an inch long)
                > through the hole and pulled it taut.

                While that MAY be strong enough with Q-Power line*, or sleeved plain line, I
                wouldn't trust it on a front line of an inflatable. With plain line, since
                you have to sleeve it anyway, you could just as easily just tie figure-8s on
                either side of a ball, as shown in "stopper ball" in the MelMods file of the
                Mel's Stuff group file folder.
                *It may in fact be quite a GOOD idea for Q-Line, IF it's strong enough,
                since it would eliminate the need for sleeving it JUST to get the diameter
                large enough to stop pulling through the hole in the ball.

                > This is currently how the ball is
                > held in place approximately 3/4 to 1 times the distance of the kite
                > LE.

                With an ARC you need to use 100% of the LE length, & it doesn't hurt to do
                the same with an inflatable too.

                > SnapShackle: Mel, as you can see, I am using the pin shackle,...
                > The ball is held on ...

                In which case* you may as well just larks head the trim loop around the
                closed end of the snap shackle, & "snap" the opening end directly to your
                spreader hook. (by the way, how's it held to the hook now?)

                *with a grab ball instead of a wrist release, & since there's nowhere to
                attach the leash to swivel (like the opening just above the release
                mechanism of a 2673)

                > The loop at the end of the ball is where the wrist line was, but is
                > now removed. I will probably put it back on for a few more times until
                > I get the hang of grabbing the ball.

                A VERY good idea. Once you switch back to the ball, you can reverse the
                shackle as noted above.

                > Diagram.jpg shows a snapshackle at the harness to completely remove
                > myself from the kite. I do not have this (yet)...

                You may not need it. What's the traffic like where you ride?

                > Comments wanted...sorry for the long post.

                You call that long! Next time just delete the irrelevant quote from the
                bottom.

                I'd suggest moving the black rigging ball about 4" in from the end of the
                trim line, where it comes out of the cleat, so if you accidentally let it
                slip on the water, & the ball goes all the way to the cleat, you'll have
                half a chance of pulling it back out to back off from full power setting.

                Mel
              • surfsup@ragingbull.com
                Mel, --It s the 2673 I recommend, so I hope that didn t happen just because you got the numbers reversed. A friend of mine had seen my 2673, & came in all
                Message 7 of 28 , Oct 7, 2001
                  Mel,

                  --It's the 2673 I recommend, so I hope that didn't happen just because
                  you got the numbers reversed. A friend of mine had seen my 2673, &
                  came in all proud that he'd saved a few bucks* by getting a different
                  unit. He tried to prove that it released fine, by getting me to pull
                  on one end while he released (which happened to work). I then hooked
                  it back into the OPENED shackle, & had him pull (it stuck), showing
                  him how it can fail to release. I strongly recommend trying this with
                  your unit: hook it into the open end, & TRY to make it stick with
                  constant tension on it. We did agree that it was probably still safer
                  than being hooked into a plain trim loop, that you can't get out of at
                  all when overpowered.--

                  I would like to add that I bought a proline seat harness which has a
                  safety release on the spreader bar. I can pull a velcro loop and the
                  spreader bar releases from the harness. So in effect, I have two
                  safetys at the harness level. At some point, I will get the 2673
                  Wichard. I have no problem spending the extra cash.

                  V
                • surfsup@ragingbull.com
                  Mel, Here s one! Eliminate the line AND O-ring, by using the shackle that s built in to the top of your pulley. In other words, just larks head the green
                  Message 8 of 28 , Oct 7, 2001
                    Mel,

                    "Here's one! Eliminate the line AND O-ring, by using the shackle
                    that's built in to the top of your pulley. In other words, just larks
                    head the green sleeve over the shackle, feed the red sleeve through
                    the shackle & larks head over an O-ring."

                    -Great idea!

                    "Just since it appears on your photo, I'm sure you're aware that the
                    neoprene caps on the end winders are meant to go OVER the line, once
                    it's wound onto the bar."

                    -Hah! No I didn't! what a kook I am...

                    "as shown in "stopper ball" in the MelMods file of the Mel's Stuff
                    group file folder."

                    -I'll change my setup to me more like your picture.

                    "With an ARC you need to use 100% of the LE length, & it doesn't hurt
                    to do the same with an inflatable too."

                    -I read this before, so that's why I "larks head" attached the ball to
                    the line so it can quickly be changed for the ARC i'm expecting to be
                    delivered this week. Is there a way to do your setup in the picture
                    that is adjustable since I'll be using the same bar for both the
                    Sligshot Fuel 140 and the ARC 640?

                    "In which case* you may as well just larks head the trim loop around
                    the closed end of the snap shackle, & "snap" the opening end directly
                    to your spreader hook. (by the way, how's it held to the hook now?)"

                    -I don't understand, you're saying you should be attached at all times
                    in the loop? Sometimes I am not attached, but since you're asking,
                    with another metal ring that I tie on with a small piece of 1"
                    webbing. I am actually concerned about the extra length to the sheet
                    line with the webbing, the O ring, the shackle at the harness, and the
                    O ring with the triple line at the pulley. Does this extra length
                    affect the kite's flying characteristics? (your suggestion to tie the
                    green line directly to the pulley and feed the red line attached to
                    the ring through the opening will eliminate the upper extra length -
                    brilliant)

                    "You may not need it. What's the traffic like where you ride?"

                    -Right now I have been flying on land, the board is still dry. I pick
                    a LARGE open field to be safe. No one around at all. I'm controlling
                    the kite fine, though (except for the 25 mph day!). This AM was 1-3
                    mph with a 5-8 mph gust here and there. I could get the kite up for
                    about 30 seconds to a couple minutes, but then dead calm and it would
                    fall like a leaf from a tree....

                    "I'd suggest moving the black rigging ball about 4" in from the end of
                    the trim line, where it comes out of the cleat, so if you accidentally
                    let it slip on the water, & the ball goes all the way to the cleat,
                    you'll have half a chance of pulling it back out to back off from full
                    power setting."

                    I'm trying to understand this one...You're saying from the photo
                    (fullbar.jpg) to halve the distance of the trim line measured from the
                    black ball to the cleat? To accomplish this I should, in effect,
                    lengthen the trim line? I'm glad you brought this up, since I'm
                    clueless about the trim line and what it should be set for. Also, the
                    sheeting range seems VERY small to this rookie. Almost negligible.
                    What am I missing? Should I be adjusting the front lines to a certain
                    length relative to the rear lines?

                    V


                    --- In ksurfschool@y..., Mel <kitebord@p...> wrote:
                    > <surfsup@r...> wrote:
                    >
                    > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/kitesurf/files/surfsup/
                    > > ...
                    > > LineRings: Shows the two "O" rings at the pulley. To attach the
                    first
                    > > "O" ring to the pulley, I cut the extra 20 ft. leader line
                    supplied
                    > > ..., though I'll
                    > > take suggestions on how to attach the ring to the pulley better.
                    >
                    > Here's one! Eliminate the line AND O-ring, by using the shackle
                    that's
                    > built in to the top of your pulley. In other words, just larks head
                    the
                    > green sleeve over the shackle, feed the red sleeve through the
                    shackle &
                    > larks head over an O-ring.
                    >
                    > By the way, the max working load of that Ronstan pulley is likely
                    only about
                    > 550 pounds (if it's a #20100), but that's typically about half the
                    actual
                    > breaking load, so it should be okay.
                    >
                    > Just since it appears on your photo, I'm sure you're aware that the
                    neoprene
                    > caps on the end winders are meant to go OVER the line, once it's
                    wound onto
                    > the bar.
                    >
                    > > I didn't take a picture of the ball on the red line to prevent the
                    bar
                    > > from flying up all the way to the kite but I probably should. Here
                    is
                    > > how I attached the ball...
                    > >
                    > > I took a small piece of leader line and threaded it into the ball,
                    > > knotting both ends with one end longer than the other. I then put
                    > > another knot at the end of the longer end, just line the
                    "adjusters"
                    > > at the end of the leader lines on the bar with three knots. Then I
                    > > took the red LE line and folded it, looped it back, spreaded it,
                    and
                    > > threaded the long end of the knotted ball line (about an inch
                    long)
                    > > through the hole and pulled it taut.
                    >
                    > While that MAY be strong enough with Q-Power line*, or sleeved plain
                    line, I
                    > wouldn't trust it on a front line of an inflatable. With plain
                    line, since
                    > you have to sleeve it anyway, you could just as easily just tie
                    figure-8s on
                    > either side of a ball, as shown in "stopper ball" in the MelMods
                    file of the
                    > Mel's Stuff group file folder.
                    > *It may in fact be quite a GOOD idea for Q-Line, IF it's strong
                    enough,
                    > since it would eliminate the need for sleeving it JUST to get the
                    diameter
                    > large enough to stop pulling through the hole in the ball.
                    >
                    > > This is currently how the ball is
                    > > held in place approximately 3/4 to 1 times the distance of the
                    kite
                    > > LE.
                    >
                    > With an ARC you need to use 100% of the LE length, & it doesn't hurt
                    to do
                    > the same with an inflatable too.
                    >
                    > > SnapShackle: Mel, as you can see, I am using the pin shackle,...
                    > > The ball is held on ...
                    >
                    > In which case* you may as well just larks head the trim loop around
                    the
                    > closed end of the snap shackle, & "snap" the opening end directly to
                    your
                    > spreader hook. (by the way, how's it held to the hook now?)
                    >
                    > *with a grab ball instead of a wrist release, & since there's
                    nowhere to
                    > attach the leash to swivel (like the opening just above the release
                    > mechanism of a 2673)
                    >
                    > > The loop at the end of the ball is where the wrist line was, but
                    is
                    > > now removed. I will probably put it back on for a few more times
                    until
                    > > I get the hang of grabbing the ball.
                    >
                    > A VERY good idea. Once you switch back to the ball, you can reverse
                    the
                    > shackle as noted above.
                    >
                    > > Diagram.jpg shows a snapshackle at the harness to completely
                    remove
                    > > myself from the kite. I do not have this (yet)...
                    >
                    > You may not need it. What's the traffic like where you ride?
                    >
                    > > Comments wanted...sorry for the long post.
                    >
                    > You call that long! Next time just delete the irrelevant quote from
                    the
                    > bottom.
                    >
                    > I'd suggest moving the black rigging ball about 4" in from the end
                    of the
                    > trim line, where it comes out of the cleat, so if you accidentally
                    let it
                    > slip on the water, & the ball goes all the way to the cleat, you'll
                    have
                    > half a chance of pulling it back out to back off from full power
                    setting.
                    >
                    > Mel
                  • Suntrax
                    V? Is that a Proline or Prolimit harness with the QR on the spreader? and have you actually tried the spreader bar release under full tension? i.e. does the
                    Message 9 of 28 , Oct 8, 2001
                      V?

                      Is that a Proline or Prolimit harness with the QR on the spreader? and have
                      you actually tried the spreader bar release under full tension? i.e. does
                      the
                      trim loop/harness line cleanly detach from the spreader hook when the bar is
                      released at one end while you are being dragged in the water or on the
                      beach?

                      Thanks.

                      Brian


                      Brian Wilson
                      Suntrax
                      Tel/fax 027 21 5560044
                      cell; 0824656696
                      www.suntrax.co.za

                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: <surfsup@...>
                      To: <ksurfschool@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Monday, October 08, 2001 5:13 AM
                      Subject: [ksurfschool] Re: Help regarding safety system for new bar. COM


                      > Mel,
                      >
                      > --It's the 2673 I recommend, so I hope that didn't happen just because
                      > you got the numbers reversed. A friend of mine had seen my 2673, &
                      > came in all proud that he'd saved a few bucks* by getting a different
                      > unit. He tried to prove that it released fine, by getting me to pull
                      > on one end while he released (which happened to work). I then hooked
                      > it back into the OPENED shackle, & had him pull (it stuck), showing
                      > him how it can fail to release. I strongly recommend trying this with
                      > your unit: hook it into the open end, & TRY to make it stick with
                      > constant tension on it. We did agree that it was probably still safer
                      > than being hooked into a plain trim loop, that you can't get out of at
                      > all when overpowered.--
                      >
                      > I would like to add that I bought a proline seat harness which has a
                      > safety release on the spreader bar. I can pull a velcro loop and the
                      > spreader bar releases from the harness. So in effect, I have two
                      > safetys at the harness level. At some point, I will get the 2673
                      > Wichard. I have no problem spending the extra cash.
                      >
                      > V
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
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                    • surfsup@ragingbull.com
                      Brian, Is that a Proline or Prolimit harness with the QR on the spreader? and have you actually tried the spreader bar release under full tension? i.e. does
                      Message 10 of 28 , Oct 8, 2001
                        Brian,

                        "Is that a Proline or Prolimit harness with the QR on the spreader?
                        and have you actually tried the spreader bar release under full
                        tension? i.e. does the trim loop/harness line cleanly detach from the
                        spreader hook when the bar is released at one end while you are being
                        dragged in the water or on the beach?"

                        Its the prolimit kiteseat harness:

                        http://www.pro-limit.nl/2001/displayitem.php3?item_id=220

                        On the spreader bar, you can see the release on the left side in this
                        graphic:

                        http://www.pro-limit.nl/2001/displayitem.php3?item_id=235

                        My hook doesn't swivel, and in answer to your question....no, I
                        haven't had time to test it yet. I only built the safety into the
                        kite rigging on Saturday since my dealer never sent me anything. It
                        was huge winds and too out of control to even fly for a rookie like
                        myself. Yesterday, Sunday, was dead calm winds where I could barely
                        launch the kite and keep it there for more than a minute or two.

                        I'll hopefully get good testing done this weekend coming up. I'll let
                        the thread know how everything works. I will also make the adjustment
                        on the line rigging to get rid of the tripled-up leader and the O
                        ring that is not necessary. I also want heavier line on the
                        snapshackle release grab ball. First, so it does not break. Second,
                        so it does not tangle around stuff...

                        V
                      • Mel
                        ... That s not really the case, since if your snap shackle fails to release it s still attached to your spreader, which only releases on one side. Also, as
                        Message 11 of 28 , Oct 8, 2001
                          <surfsup@...> wrote:

                          > I would like to add that I bought a proline seat harness which has a
                          > safety release on the spreader bar. I can pull a velcro loop and the
                          > spreader bar releases from the harness. So in effect, I have two
                          > safetys at the harness level.

                          That's not really the case, since if your snap shackle fails to release it's
                          still attached to your spreader, which only releases on one side. Also, as
                          Brian pointed out, the spreader may not even release you from a plain
                          harness line (it was not designed to do so, only for easy manual
                          entry/exit).

                          > At some point, I will get the 2673
                          > Wichard. I have no problem spending the extra cash.

                          Good

                          Mel
                        • Mel
                          ... Then I guess I should mention that they should be replaced while riding (to cushion any impact & so they don t get ripped right off). ... We ve all been
                          Message 12 of 28 , Oct 8, 2001
                            <surfsup@...> wrote:

                            > > "Just since it appears on your photo, I'm sure you're aware that the
                            > > neoprene caps on the end winders are meant to go OVER the line, once
                            > > it's wound onto the bar."
                            >
                            > -Hah! No I didn't!

                            Then I guess I should mention that they should be replaced while riding (to
                            cushion any impact & so they don't get ripped right off).

                            > what a kook I am...

                            We've all been "kook's" at some time or other. Just the other day I
                            couldn't believe it took me so long to figure out how* to prevent my 2673
                            from prematurely releasing.
                            * By feeding the release line through the "B" opening.

                            > -I read this before, so that's why I "larks head" attached the ball to
                            > the line so it can quickly be changed for the ARC i'm expecting to be
                            > delivered this week. Is there a way to do your setup in the picture
                            > that is adjustable since I'll be using the same bar for both the
                            > Sligshot Fuel 140 and the ARC 640?

                            No matter what, without Q-Line, you have to sleeve it. Using your cool idea
                            of a "captured clove hitch" around a very short length of line*, you should
                            be able to easily slide it to wherever you want, sleeving & all.

                            *I think you had a stopper ball on that short line, but with 2 figure-8s on
                            it, you might not even need a ball, depending on the size of the opening of
                            the shackle on your pulley - just check to see if it will stop it with a bit
                            of tension)

                            > > "In which case* you may as well just larks head the trim loop around
                            > > the closed end of the snap shackle, & "snap" the opening end directly
                            > > to your spreader hook. (by the way, how's it held to the hook now?)"
                            >
                            > -I don't understand, you're saying you should be attached at all times
                            > in the loop? Sometimes I am not attached, but since you're asking,
                            > with another metal ring that I tie on with a small piece of 1"
                            > webbing.

                            So you sometimes hook the spreader into the huge o-ring on the trim line?
                            You realize that it's impossible to get out of that ring when you really
                            need to, right? That's the whole purpose of the snap shackle, so I guess I
                            AM saying you should be attached at all times (with a snap shackle that
                            releases RELIABLY), in which case you can do away with the huge o-ring
                            (lark's head the fixed end of the snap shackle in it's place), and the
                            "other metal ring" (by "snapping" the shackle directly to the harness hook -
                            yes it's barely off-center, but you can adjust your harness webbing to
                            compensate if you really wanted).

                            > I am actually concerned about the extra length to the sheet
                            > line with the webbing, the O ring, the shackle at the harness, and the
                            > O ring with the triple line at the pulley. Does this extra length
                            > affect the kite's flying characteristics?

                            Yes. You won't be able to sheet in as far if you have too much "stuff" on
                            the line between the bar & the spreader, until you switch to a "free bar"
                            (no line through the bar).

                            > (your suggestion to tie the
                            > green line directly to the pulley and feed the red line attached to
                            > the ring through the opening will eliminate the upper extra length -

                            That length could be compensated for by adjusting at the cleat (which, by
                            the way, reduces your ability to sheet OUT, until you switch to a free bar).

                            > > What's the traffic like where you ride?
                            >
                            > -Right now I have been flying on land, the board is still dry. I pick
                            > a LARGE open field to be safe. No one around at all. I'm controlling
                            > the kite fine, though (except for the 25 mph day!). This AM was 1-3
                            > mph with a 5-8 mph gust here and there. I could get the kite up for
                            > about 30 seconds to a couple minutes, but then dead calm and it would
                            > fall like a leaf from a tree....

                            Actually light wind can be really good for certain types of practice, like
                            really low passes, parallel to the ground, back & forth, which gives a good
                            approximation of the feel while riding.

                            > "I'd suggest moving the black rigging ball about 4" in from the end of
                            > the trim line, where it comes out of the cleat, so if you accidentally
                            > let it slip on the water, & the ball goes all the way to the cleat,
                            > you'll have half a chance of pulling it back out to back off from full
                            > power setting."
                            >
                            > I'm trying to understand this one...You're saying from the photo
                            > (fullbar.jpg) to halve the distance of the trim line measured from the
                            > black ball to the cleat?

                            Let me try again: You want to always have a stopper knot (or ball, although
                            in this case a plain knot would be fine) far enough from the end of the
                            line, that when that knot is doing it's job (keeping the line from slipping
                            completely through) there's still enough line exposed to grab & pull it back
                            out again. Ideally, it's usually best to have one knot to stop it, &
                            another at the very end, to grab when you're trying to pull it back out
                            again.

                            > To accomplish this I should, in effect,
                            > lengthen the trim line?

                            You may need to lengthen the line to compensate for the new knot position.
                            I'm a little curious what adjustment system you had before (webbing strap?)
                            & why you eliminated it.

                            > I'm glad you brought this up, since I'm
                            > clueless about the trim line and what it should be set for. Also, the
                            > sheeting range seems VERY small to this rookie. Almost negligible.
                            > What am I missing? Should I be adjusting the front lines to a certain
                            > length relative to the rear lines?

                            You DEFINITELY want to be able to sheet out enough to make the rear lines
                            slack, even in strong wind when the TE pulls away more, & you should also be
                            able to sheet IN enough to make the FRONT lines slack (on an inflatable),
                            although depending on the model, size, & your weight, that may be a bit more
                            than needed for normal riding.

                            Mel
                          • surfsup@ragingbull.com
                            Mel, In terms of the strength of the 800 lb. line, I am referring to it fraying, etc. But the sleeve of a PVC pipe will prevent that, as well, so that s all I
                            Message 13 of 28 , Oct 9, 2001
                              Mel,

                              In terms of the strength of the 800 lb. line, I am referring to it
                              fraying, etc. But the sleeve of a PVC pipe will prevent that, as
                              well, so that's all I need to do, you're right there...as usual!

                              >>"*I think you had a stopper ball on that short line, but with 2
                              figure-8s on it, you might not even need a ball,..."

                              You're right, I may not need the ball. I'll look into it and let ya
                              know...

                              >>"<b>So you sometimes hook the spreader into the huge o-ring on the
                              trim line?</b>"

                              No, I meant another O ring that was not pictured that I used to fit
                              into the snap shackle from the harness with 1" webbing. But I am
                              going to snap right into the harness, I guess. I didn't think you
                              were supposed to be snapped in. I saw some videos on the internet and
                              on the "How to Rip" video that showed guys unhooking and then hooking
                              back in. I thought that was normal. Also, a lot of guys are talking
                              about not even using the smart loop on the other thread. As a rookie,
                              I will snap in, though. I know, I know..."Bad rookie, Bad rookie..."

                              >>"Let me try again: You want to always have a stopper knot (or ball,
                              although in this case a plain knot would be fine) far enough from the
                              end of the line, that when that knot is doing it's job (keeping the
                              line from slipping completely through) there's still enough line
                              exposed to grab & pull it back out again. Ideally, it's usually best
                              to have one knot to stop it, & another at the very end, to grab when
                              you're trying to pull it back out again."

                              Dammit, Mel! Another great idea...I got it. Leave four inches of rope
                              hanging past the ball so if it goes all the way to the cleat, you can
                              still grab it to pull it!

                              One Q regarding this, however. As I said before, it doesn't seem like
                              there's much more than about 5 inches of sheeting length since the
                              line is doubled-up out to the pulley and back to the cleat. So for
                              each two inches of sheeting, there is only one inch of sheet actually
                              occuring. If I do this, it will severely limit what sheeting range I
                              have, which is about 5 inches MAX.

                              >>"You DEFINITELY want to be able to sheet out enough to make the
                              rear lines slack, even in strong wind when the TE pulls away more, &
                              you should also be able to sheet IN enough to make the FRONT lines
                              slack (on an inflatable), although depending on the model, size, &
                              your weight, that may be a bit more than needed for normal riding."

                              So how much sheeting (inches) should I expect to need? I will go home
                              tonight after work and post how much range there is. This is a bar
                              stock from Slingshot (er, was, before all the changes) and I haven't
                              done anything to the configuration of the smart loop, cleat, pulley,
                              or sheet-length at all.

                              V
                            • surfsup@ragingbull.com
                              With the extra O ring that the snap shackle was clipped on, I did have the two to release, but now that I will go directly to the harness with the snapshackle,
                              Message 14 of 28 , Oct 9, 2001
                                With the extra O ring that the snap shackle was clipped on, I did
                                have the two to release, but now that I will go directly to the
                                harness with the snapshackle, it will be the shackle, or nothing...

                                Wind is blowing up this week at a steady 12-25 mph each day for the
                                last few days. I want the ARC to do the testing. Hopefully it will be
                                here soon!


                                --- In ksurfschool@y..., Mel <kitebord@p...> wrote:
                                > <surfsup@r...> wrote:
                                >
                                > > I would like to add that I bought a proline seat harness which
                                has a
                                > > safety release on the spreader bar. I can pull a velcro loop and
                                the
                                > > spreader bar releases from the harness. So in effect, I have two
                                > > safetys at the harness level.
                                >
                                > That's not really the case, since if your snap shackle fails to
                                release it's
                                > still attached to your spreader, which only releases on one side.
                                Also, as
                                > Brian pointed out, the spreader may not even release you from a
                                plain
                                > harness line (it was not designed to do so, only for easy manual
                                > entry/exit).
                                >
                                > > At some point, I will get the 2673
                                > > Wichard. I have no problem spending the extra cash.
                                >
                                > Good
                                >
                                > Mel
                              • surfsup@ragingbull.com
                                I m pissed! I wrote a nice reply and Yahoo never posted it. So this ... figure-8s on it, you might not even need a ball,... You re right. I ll look into that.
                                Message 15 of 28 , Oct 9, 2001
                                  I'm pissed! I wrote a nice reply and Yahoo never posted it. So this
                                  one will be shorter:

                                  >>"*I think you had a stopper ball on that short line, but with 2
                                  figure-8s on it, you might not even need a ball,..."

                                  You're right. I'll look into that.

                                  >>"So you sometimes hook the spreader into the huge o-ring on the
                                  trim line? You realize that it's impossible to get out of that ring
                                  when you really need to, right? That's the whole purpose of the snap
                                  shackle, so I guess I AM saying you should be attached at all times
                                  (with a snap shackle that releases RELIABLY), in which case you can
                                  do away with the huge o-ring..."

                                  There is another O Ring between the shackle and the harness not in
                                  the picture. I attach it to the shackle with 1" webbing. I will get
                                  rid of this O ring and snap directly into the shackle as suggested.
                                  Makes sense. I was watching internet videos and the "How to Rip"
                                  video which shows guys unhooking and hooking back into the smart loop
                                  so I figured I should not be permanently snapped in. But I guess as a
                                  rookie, I should be. I know...I know..."bad rookie. Bad"

                                  >>"Let me try again: You want to always have a stopper knot (or ball,
                                  although in this case a plain knot would be fine) far enough from the
                                  end of the line, that when that knot is doing it's job (keeping the
                                  line from slipping completely through) there's still enough line
                                  exposed to grab & pull it back out again. Ideally, it's usually best
                                  to have one knot to stop it, & another at the very end, to grab when
                                  you're trying to pull it back out again."

                                  Damn Mel! Another good idea! I've got it. Leave some rope hanging if
                                  the ball gets jammed up to the cleat so you can still grab it to pull
                                  it. Makes a lot of sense...

                                  >>"You may need to lengthen the line to compensate for the new knot
                                  position. I'm a little curious what adjustment system you had before
                                  (webbing strap?) & why you eliminated it."

                                  Its a stock bar from Slingshot prior to the safety modifications. I
                                  never made any changes to the sheet, smart loop, pulley, cleat area.
                                  I'm concerned about the total sheeting range. Since the sheet rope is
                                  doubled-up out of the cleat to the pullet and back to the cleat, for
                                  each inch I sheet in/out, it results in only a half-inch of actual
                                  sheeting distance. So since the total distance of the sheet rope from
                                  the cleat to the pulley back to the cleat is about a foot, there's
                                  only 5-6 inches of sheetable rope there. Doesn't seem like much to
                                  me. Do I need to lengthen this rope?

                                  >>"You DEFINITELY want to be able to sheet out enough to make the
                                  rear lines slack, even in strong wind when the TE pulls away more, &
                                  you should also be able to sheet IN enough to make the FRONT lines
                                  slack (on an inflatable), although depending on the model, size, &
                                  your weight, that may be a bit more than needed for normal riding."

                                  See, I don't think there's enough to accomplish what you say here.
                                  I'll measure the total length of the sheet rope and post it tonight
                                  after work.

                                  V



                                  --- In ksurfschool@y..., Mel <kitebord@p...> wrote:
                                  > <surfsup@r...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > > > "Just since it appears on your photo, I'm sure you're aware
                                  that the
                                  > > > neoprene caps on the end winders are meant to go OVER the line,
                                  once
                                  > > > it's wound onto the bar."
                                  > >
                                  > > -Hah! No I didn't!
                                  >
                                  > Then I guess I should mention that they should be replaced while
                                  riding (to
                                  > cushion any impact & so they don't get ripped right off).
                                  >
                                  > > what a kook I am...
                                  >
                                  > We've all been "kook's" at some time or other. Just the other day I
                                  > couldn't believe it took me so long to figure out how* to prevent
                                  my 2673
                                  > from prematurely releasing.
                                  > * By feeding the release line through the "B" opening.
                                  >
                                  > > -I read this before, so that's why I "larks head" attached the
                                  ball to
                                  > > the line so it can quickly be changed for the ARC i'm expecting
                                  to be
                                  > > delivered this week. Is there a way to do your setup in the
                                  picture
                                  > > that is adjustable since I'll be using the same bar for both the
                                  > > Sligshot Fuel 140 and the ARC 640?
                                  >
                                  > No matter what, without Q-Line, you have to sleeve it. Using your
                                  cool idea
                                  > of a "captured clove hitch" around a very short length of line*,
                                  you should
                                  > be able to easily slide it to wherever you want, sleeving & all.
                                  >
                                  > *I think you had a stopper ball on that short line, but with 2
                                  figure-8s on
                                  > it, you might not even need a ball, depending on the size of the
                                  opening of
                                  > the shackle on your pulley - just check to see if it will stop it
                                  with a bit
                                  > of tension)
                                  >
                                  > > > "In which case* you may as well just larks head the trim loop
                                  around
                                  > > > the closed end of the snap shackle, & "snap" the opening end
                                  directly
                                  > > > to your spreader hook. (by the way, how's it held to the hook
                                  now?)"
                                  > >
                                  > > -I don't understand, you're saying you should be attached at all
                                  times
                                  > > in the loop? Sometimes I am not attached, but since you're asking,
                                  > > with another metal ring that I tie on with a small piece of 1"
                                  > > webbing.
                                  >
                                  > So you sometimes hook the spreader into the huge o-ring on the trim
                                  line?
                                  > You realize that it's impossible to get out of that ring when you
                                  really
                                  > need to, right? That's the whole purpose of the snap shackle, so I
                                  guess I
                                  > AM saying you should be attached at all times (with a snap shackle
                                  that
                                  > releases RELIABLY), in which case you can do away with the huge o-
                                  ring
                                  > (lark's head the fixed end of the snap shackle in it's place), and
                                  the
                                  > "other metal ring" (by "snapping" the shackle directly to the
                                  harness hook -
                                  > yes it's barely off-center, but you can adjust your harness webbing
                                  to
                                  > compensate if you really wanted).
                                  >
                                  > > I am actually concerned about the extra length to the sheet
                                  > > line with the webbing, the O ring, the shackle at the harness,
                                  and the
                                  > > O ring with the triple line at the pulley. Does this extra length
                                  > > affect the kite's flying characteristics?
                                  >
                                  > Yes. You won't be able to sheet in as far if you have too
                                  much "stuff" on
                                  > the line between the bar & the spreader, until you switch to
                                  a "free bar"
                                  > (no line through the bar).
                                  >
                                  > > (your suggestion to tie the
                                  > > green line directly to the pulley and feed the red line attached
                                  to
                                  > > the ring through the opening will eliminate the upper extra
                                  length -
                                  >
                                  > That length could be compensated for by adjusting at the cleat
                                  (which, by
                                  > the way, reduces your ability to sheet OUT, until you switch to a
                                  free bar).
                                  >
                                  > > > What's the traffic like where you ride?
                                  > >
                                  > > -Right now I have been flying on land, the board is still dry. I
                                  pick
                                  > > a LARGE open field to be safe. No one around at all. I'm
                                  controlling
                                  > > the kite fine, though (except for the 25 mph day!). This AM was 1-
                                  3
                                  > > mph with a 5-8 mph gust here and there. I could get the kite up
                                  for
                                  > > about 30 seconds to a couple minutes, but then dead calm and it
                                  would
                                  > > fall like a leaf from a tree....
                                  >
                                  > Actually light wind can be really good for certain types of
                                  practice, like
                                  > really low passes, parallel to the ground, back & forth, which
                                  gives a good
                                  > approximation of the feel while riding.
                                  >
                                  > > "I'd suggest moving the black rigging ball about 4" in from the
                                  end of
                                  > > the trim line, where it comes out of the cleat, so if you
                                  accidentally
                                  > > let it slip on the water, & the ball goes all the way to the
                                  cleat,
                                  > > you'll have half a chance of pulling it back out to back off from
                                  full
                                  > > power setting."
                                  > >
                                  > > I'm trying to understand this one...You're saying from the photo
                                  > > (fullbar.jpg) to halve the distance of the trim line measured
                                  from the
                                  > > black ball to the cleat?
                                  >
                                  > Let me try again: You want to always have a stopper knot (or ball,
                                  although
                                  > in this case a plain knot would be fine) far enough from the end of
                                  the
                                  > line, that when that knot is doing it's job (keeping the line from
                                  slipping
                                  > completely through) there's still enough line exposed to grab &
                                  pull it back
                                  > out again. Ideally, it's usually best to have one knot to stop it,
                                  &
                                  > another at the very end, to grab when you're trying to pull it back
                                  out
                                  > again.
                                  >
                                  > > To accomplish this I should, in effect,
                                  > > lengthen the trim line?
                                  >
                                  > You may need to lengthen the line to compensate for the new knot
                                  position.
                                  > I'm a little curious what adjustment system you had before (webbing
                                  strap?)
                                  > & why you eliminated it.
                                  >
                                  > > I'm glad you brought this up, since I'm
                                  > > clueless about the trim line and what it should be set for. Also,
                                  the
                                  > > sheeting range seems VERY small to this rookie. Almost negligible.
                                  > > What am I missing? Should I be adjusting the front lines to a
                                  certain
                                  > > length relative to the rear lines?
                                  >
                                  > You DEFINITELY want to be able to sheet out enough to make the rear
                                  lines
                                  > slack, even in strong wind when the TE pulls away more, & you
                                  should also be
                                  > able to sheet IN enough to make the FRONT lines slack (on an
                                  inflatable),
                                  > although depending on the model, size, & your weight, that may be a
                                  bit more
                                  > than needed for normal riding.
                                  >
                                  > Mel
                                • Mel
                                  ... I guess you could say that s normal , since most stock & even aftermarket systems come set up for that (actual trim LOOP to hook into). The problem is,
                                  Message 16 of 28 , Oct 9, 2001
                                    <surfsup@...> wrote:

                                    > I'm pissed! I wrote a nice reply and Yahoo never posted it.

                                    Relax. It came through, & my responses are with it below:

                                    > I didn't think you
                                    > were supposed to be snapped in. I saw some videos on the internet and
                                    > on the "How to Rip" video that showed guys unhooking and then hooking
                                    > back in. I thought that was normal.

                                    I guess you could say that's "normal", since most stock & even aftermarket
                                    systems come set up for that (actual trim LOOP to hook into). The problem
                                    is, when you most need to get OUT of it in a dangerous emergency, it's
                                    impossible, whereas a snap shackle can pretty much always be released.

                                    > Also, a lot of guys are talking
                                    > about not even using the smart loop on the other thread. As a rookie,
                                    > I will snap in, though. I know, I know..."Bad rookie, Bad rookie..."

                                    If you're snap-shackled in, & want to lock in a fixed sheeting angle, all
                                    you have to do is hook into the main harness line.

                                    > it doesn't seem like
                                    > there's much more than about 5 inches of sheeting length since the
                                    > line is doubled-up out to the pulley and back to the cleat. So for
                                    > each two inches of sheeting, there is only one inch of sheet actually
                                    > occuring. If I do this, it will severely limit what sheeting range I
                                    > have, which is about 5 inches MAX.

                                    You could replace the line with a longer one. There's no need to sew a loop
                                    in the bottom for the snap shackle, just tie it on with a bowline. If you
                                    can't get replacement line by the foot locally, & you're concerned about a
                                    different type of line wearing out before you switch to a "free" bar, just
                                    get a Holt-Allen stancion fairlead, or even just a plain stainless eyebolt
                                    to run the line through instead of running it through the hole in the bar.

                                    > >>"You DEFINITELY want to be able to sheet out enough to make the
                                    > rear ... or ... the FRONT lines
                                    > slack ..."

                                    > So how much sheeting (inches) should I expect to need?

                                    I think most stock systems come with about 8" or so of sheeting, & about the
                                    same amount of adjustment range, in addition to that (but I can't check
                                    without rebooting, since my Word software won't open for me to read my log,
                                    where I recorded the stock measurements). I consider that to be somewhat
                                    minimal, for beginners (I definitely liked having 12" or more of adjustment,
                                    although NOW I use MUCH less, even on an inflatable - but both as a beginner
                                    AND as an advanced rider now, I've ALWAYS liked a LOT of manual sheeting
                                    range - up to 24" with an ARC, although I think 18", or even 12 may be
                                    sufficient for me now with an inflatable). Now that I think of it,
                                    Slingshot 4-line kites have rather narrow tips, which limits angle of attack
                                    range (unfortunately), so you may not need that much movement to cover its
                                    entire range. Your ARC is another matter (as noted above), although again,
                                    you may not need as much as me, since I'm on an 840 & yours is a 630.

                                    > I will go home
                                    > tonight after work and post how much range there is. This is a bar
                                    > stock from Slingshot (er, was, before all the changes) and I haven't
                                    > done anything to the configuration of the smart loop, cleat, pulley,
                                    > or sheet-length at all.

                                    I didn't know that SlingShots came stock with a pulley & cleat for
                                    adjustment. You may be able to get a bit more line "free" by unpicking the
                                    stitches on the (now unused) trim loop, & just tying the end of it through
                                    the fixed end of the snap shackle with a bowline (as long as you don't want
                                    to use the more safe wrist-activated release).

                                    Mel
                                  • Mel
                                    ... Most inflatable riders still use a solid main harness line on the bar*, to ride with a locked in, fixed sheeting angle, so if you re hooked into it,
                                    Message 17 of 28 , Oct 9, 2001
                                      <surfsup@...> wrote:

                                      > With the extra O ring that the snap shackle was clipped on, I did
                                      > have the two to release, but now that I will go directly to the
                                      > harness with the snapshackle, it will be the shackle, or nothing...

                                      Most inflatable riders still use a solid "main" harness line on the bar*, to
                                      ride with a locked in, fixed sheeting angle, so if you're hooked into it,
                                      you'd need a harness hook that's able to release from that line, if you want
                                      to be able to safely exit while hooked into it. Did that make sense?

                                      *which is what I thought you were referring to when you wrote about using
                                      the spreader's release to get out of the harness line.

                                      Mel
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