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Re: Help regarding safety system for new bar. COM

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  • surfsup@ragingbull.com
    Mel, I cannot thank you enough! Please look at this diagram I drew up: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/kitesurf/files/surfsup/Diagram.jpg Assuming I use a grab
    Message 1 of 28 , Oct 5, 2001
      Mel,

      I cannot thank you enough! Please look at this diagram I drew up:

      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/kitesurf/files/surfsup/Diagram.jpg

      Assuming I use a grab ball instead of lines to the wrist, I think I
      understand your suggestions with this diagram. A ring at one of the
      front flying lines between the LE line and the leader to the pulley,
      where another ring exists to prevent the line from passing past that
      point should I let go of the bar and release the harness snap shackle.

      The other shackle at the leash line by the harness can be released
      with another grab ball should I need to release completely from the
      kite.

      So to get this straight, to depower, I let go of the bar and disengage
      the snapshackle at the harness using the grab ball (I will use the
      grab ball rather than leash since I feel I've been in hairy
      situations before and can handle it). This releases one of the front
      lines and the kite loses power, but is still attached to me via the
      leash to the harness running through the ring at the pulley where the
      front leaders are attached.

      I'm going out tomorrow morning to build this device and test it. I
      already feel much safer. Please let me know if there is anything I
      misunderstood.

      V

      --- In ksurfschool@y..., Mel <kitebord@p...> wrote:
      > It's much safer if you have a system of releasing from the trim
      loop, since
      > if you can't get out of it, dropping the bar does no good.
      >
      > If I were you, the first thing I'd do is install a snap shackle,
      with a
      > pivot at the VERY END like a wichard 2673 (easy to do a search in
      the marine
      > hardware section of www.wichard.com) between the trim loop & your
      spreader.
      > It's safer to have the release line attached to your wrist, instead
      of
      > having to try to find it by feel & grab it (visualize trying to do
      that
      > while being dragged upside down & backwards, on land OR water!).
      >
      > Here's how you do that: Tie a plain
      > stainless O-ring onto the bottom end of the smart loop*, & "snap" it
      into
      > the Wichard 2673. Feed the 2673's release line (shown red on
      wichard.com)
      > through the "B"
      > opening & attach it to a line to a wrist strap** (adjust length so
      it only
      > releases when you pull your hand way back - it will take some
      > experimentation) which you'll later replace with a "grab ball" to
      allow
      > spinning. Attach the 2673 to the hook of a plain spreader bar,
      using a loop
      > of leader line, or a plain shackle.
      >
      > * Better to carefully cut the tubing off the trim loop, & lark's
      head it
      > around the O-ring (yes, it will work, just feed the loop through &
      then over
      > the end of the ring, & lock the lark's head in place with a wire tie
      if it
      > tends to come off
      > by itself).
      >
      > ** Best to stiffen the release line by feeding it through some cheap
      clear
      > vinyl tubing from your local hardware store, so it can't
      accidentally wrap
      > itself around something.
      >
      > For the leash system itself, I'd install a plain shackle on the top
      of the
      > pulley, & then set it up just like "leash-n-spin_stopperball.jpg",
      and
      > "leash-n-spin_photo3.jpg " in the kitesurftech folder (use that
      plain
      > shackle instead of the top FLS ring.
      >
      > With a properly depowering leash, the need to release from that
      leash is
      > unlikely. I've used a small Fastex buckle stolen of an old harness
      waist or
      > leg strap, & also a snap hook like the stock SlingShot leash comes
      with. As
      > a matter of fact, if you're getting a stock SlingShot leash system,
      you can
      > just use it to connect between the blue stopper ball (you can use
      the stock
      > SlingShot O-ring in place of the ball) and your spreader bar. The
      stock
      > SlingShot wrist cuff can then be used to connect to the trim line's
      snap
      > shackle release.
      >
      > Whatever you end up with, I strongly recommend FULLY TESTING it
      first.
      >
      > Mel
    • Mel
      ... No problem. ... It ll be okay as-is (keep scrolling down for suggestions) if you make SURE the distance between the stopper ball & ring #2 is one flat
      Message 2 of 28 , Oct 5, 2001
        <surfsup@...> wrote:

        > Mel,
        >
        > I cannot thank you enough!

        No problem.

        > Please look at this diagram I drew up:
        >
        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/kitesurf/files/surfsup/Diagram.jpg
        >
        > Assuming I use a grab ball instead of lines to the wrist, I think I
        > understand your suggestions with this diagram.

        It'll be okay as-is (keep scrolling down for suggestions) if you make SURE
        the distance between the stopper ball & ring #2 is one flat kitespan, AND
        that the snap shackle is "snapped" to a solid metal ring of sufficient
        radius (let me know if that isn't clear). If you're going for the less safe
        "grab ball" release, you COULD just "snap" the Wichard around the hook of a
        plain spreader, after attaching the fixed end to the trim line (lark's
        heading as noted in my previous post).

        > A ring at one of the
        > front flying lines between the LE line and the leader to the pulley,

        Right so far...

        > where another ring exists to prevent the line from passing past that
        > point should I let go of the bar and release the harness snap shackle.

        I'm not quite sure about your wording here, so just to clarify, you have a
        stopper ball on the left front line below the ring, to prefent the left
        front line from passing that point during use. You have another ring one
        flat kitespan up the front left line (or leader), to prevent the lower ring
        from passing that point WHEN (not if) you let go of the bar & release the
        trim line snap shackle. Personally I'd reverse the positions of the stopper
        ball & ring #2 (having the ring at the bottom makes it easier to attach the
        leash.

        > The other shackle at the leash line by the harness can be released
        > with another grab ball should I need to release completely from the
        > kite.

        That's only necessary if the depower fails (quite unlikely if set up right)
        or your kite gets caught on a passing vehicle (including another kite), the
        likelihood of which depends on your location. It may be safe enough to just
        use the stock SlingShot snap hooks, since they're rather easy to release.

        > So to get this straight, to depower, I let go of the bar and disengage
        > the snapshackle at the harness using the grab ball

        Correct.

        > (I will use the
        > grab ball rather than leash since I feel I've been in hairy
        > situations before and can handle it).

        But you'd written: << As a new kitesurfer who has only flown the kites on
        land a few
        times now, I have been reading more posts and getting concerned for my
        safety, and that of others... >> !!! Have you been in the "hairy situation"
        of being dragged upside down & backwards? (on land AND under water?) If so,
        you know how disorienting that can be. If not, you will, & you'll find out
        (& hopefully live to tell about it).

        > This releases one of the front
        > lines and the kite loses power, but is still attached to me via the
        > leash to the harness running through the ring at the pulley where the
        > front leaders are attached.

        Yes.

        > I'm going out tomorrow morning to build this device and test it. I
        > already feel much safer. Please let me know if there is anything I
        > misunderstood.

        I think it should all be pretty clear now.

        Mel
      • surfsup@ragingbull.com
        Mel, Thanks again. It seems the diagram is correct. Good idea about reversing the ball and ring #2! Makes sense. What I referred to, regarding using the grab
        Message 3 of 28 , Oct 6, 2001
          Mel,

          Thanks again. It seems the diagram is correct. Good idea about
          reversing the ball and ring #2! Makes sense.

          What I referred to, regarding using the grab ball having been in hairy
          situations before, is that I do a lot and feel I can go with the grab
          ball. I ski, surf, parasail, parachute, scuba, snow board, semi-pro
          beach volleyball (up until three years ago), rock climb, downhill,
          mountainbike, compete in adventure challenges (mini-eos, etc.), etc
          etc etc. Not undermining the importance of having good reaction
          skills/abilities. I've been pinned to the ocean floor by huge waves,
          had leashes wrapped around me and dragged underwater, etc. and just
          feel I can handle the "grab ball" approach from the onset.

          Don't worry, I'll test and re-test the system once done many times in
          an open area before taking the kite near anyone else. I'm getting
          fairly good at controlling the kite so far and the conditions look
          great this AM! I'm gonna get outta here and get some flying time!

          Thanks again. I'll keep you updated on my adventures as I learn!
          Hopefully no injuries...

          V
        • Mel
          ... That s all well & good, but if you get killed because you couldn t find the release when getting dragged into the rocks upside down & backwards, don t come
          Message 4 of 28 , Oct 6, 2001
            <surfsup@...> wrpte:

            > I ski, surf, parasail, parachute, scuba, snow board, semi-pro
            > beach volleyball ... rock climb, downhill mountainbike, ...
            > etc etc... I've been pinned to the ocean floor by huge waves,
            > had leashes wrapped around me and dragged underwater, etc. and just
            > feel I can handle the "grab ball" approach from the onset.

            That's all well & good, but if you get killed because you couldn't find the
            release when getting dragged into the rocks upside down & backwards, don't
            come crying to me. All I'm suggesting is it's a better idea to at least
            START with a wrist activated release. After you've been nearly drowned, &
            determined that even then you could have found & grabbed a ball, THEN remove
            the wrist release. Just my opinion. It's use is obviously up to you.

            > Don't worry, I'll test and re-test the system once done many times in
            > an open area before taking the kite near anyone else. I'm getting
            > fairly good at controlling the kite so far...

            Don't forget that no matter HOW good you get at controlling the kite, you
            can NEVER control the WIND.

            Mel
          • surfsup@ragingbull.com
            Mel, Both are very good points and well received. I ve got the grab ball attached to a longer line which goes to my wrist for the time being. Unfortunately, I
            Message 5 of 28 , Oct 6, 2001
              Mel,

              Both are very good points and well received. I've got the grab ball
              attached to a longer line which goes to my wrist for the time being.
              Unfortunately, I think the grab ball is actually better in my current
              situation since the only Wichard snap shackle that I could find was
              not the 2763 model, it was a different one - the 2473 swivel eye
              (third graphic down):

              http://www.wichard-usa.com/Catalog/HR_Snap_Shackles.htm

              With the spring loaded pin, it releases easier with the grab ball by
              pulling it sideways across the body. With the wrist attachment, its
              much harder to release since I was pulling it at an agle to the pin's
              axis, which seemed to be creating a lot of friction on the pin from
              the load the kite placed on the unit.

              The wind was strong, very strong. In fact, the winds here are 16 mph
              with gust of 25 mph. I took out my Slingshot Fuel 140 which was
              waaaaay too big. I put it up by myself and it immediately started
              dragging me across the field. My shoes couldn't get any grip since
              the kite wanted to lift me. A gust hit which pulled me up and off the
              ground. I was dragged on my knees a bit and recovered. Sensing too
              much power, I immediately flew the kite to the edge of the window and
              gently put it on the ground where I unhooked and began approaching the
              kite.

              At this point, the wind shifted abot 45 degrees and filled the kite
              with air while I was holding the lines approaching the kite. I let the
              lines slide through my hand until the bar came up and pulled the
              upwind steer line to keep the kite pointed into the wind until the
              high winds reduced and shifted back. I was then able to pack up the
              kite.

              The ARC 640 would have been perfect today. I only flew the kite for a
              few minutes. Unfortunately, I didn't have the correct conditions to
              test the safety system thoroughly.

              Hopefully the wind will not persist at such levels tomorrow...or I'll
              have to wait for the ARC to arrive this week prior to flying again
              next weekend. I'd like to test what I've built, though.

              I'll take photos my setup for you to critique tonight when I have a
              chance and upload to the "surfsup" directory. I'll post again when its
              uploaded there.

              V


              --- In ksurfschool@y..., Mel <kitebord@p...> wrote:
              > <surfsup@r...> wrpte:
              >
              > > I ski, surf, parasail, parachute, scuba, snow board, semi-pro
              > > beach volleyball ... rock climb, downhill mountainbike, ...
              > > etc etc... I've been pinned to the ocean floor by huge waves,
              > > had leashes wrapped around me and dragged underwater, etc. and
              just
              > > feel I can handle the "grab ball" approach from the onset.
              >
              > That's all well & good, but if you get killed because you couldn't
              find the
              > release when getting dragged into the rocks upside down & backwards,
              don't
              > come crying to me. All I'm suggesting is it's a better idea to at
              least
              > START with a wrist activated release. After you've been nearly
              drowned, &
              > determined that even then you could have found & grabbed a ball,
              THEN remove
              > the wrist release. Just my opinion. It's use is obviously up to
              you.
              >
              > > Don't worry, I'll test and re-test the system once done many times
              in
              > > an open area before taking the kite near anyone else. I'm getting
              > > fairly good at controlling the kite so far...
              >
              > Don't forget that no matter HOW good you get at controlling the
              kite, you
              > can NEVER control the WIND.
              >
              > Mel
            • Alex Leonard
              Surfsup, for those of us following your safety-system construction thread - yes, please do post a photo. Could you also perhaps post a hand-drawn diagram to
              Message 6 of 28 , Oct 6, 2001
                Surfsup,
                for those of us following your safety-system construction thread -
                yes, please do post a photo. Could you also perhaps post a hand-drawn
                diagram to "interpret" the photo (maybe with part descriptions). It
                would make it a lot easier to duplicate. I for one am still a bit
                confused by the typed description - a picture might clear up some of
                the words).

                Mel,
                since you are the originator of this set-up, perhaps you would be
                willing to comment on the above posts once they hit the discussion
                group. Just to make sure we all end up building the thing right...
                Out of curiosity Mel, is this what you use?

                With safety in mind and much appreciation! Alex.
              • surfsup@ragingbull.com
                I uploaded two new files to the surfsup folder in kitesurf: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/kitesurf/files/surfsup/ click on LineRings.jpg and
                Message 7 of 28 , Oct 6, 2001
                  I uploaded two new files to the "surfsup" folder in kitesurf:

                  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/kitesurf/files/surfsup/

                  click on "LineRings.jpg" and "Snapshackle.jpg"

                  The file "diagram.jpg" was posted before-hand and is the hand written
                  drawing of the safety system. Hopefully, its legible for anyone that
                  wants to see it. One note of interest, Mel suggested to switch the
                  location of the stopper ball and RIng #2. I had done this which is
                  evident in LineRings.jpg.

                  LineRings: Shows the two "O" rings at the pulley. To attach the first
                  "O" ring to the pulley, I cut the extra 20 ft. leader line supplied
                  with the bar up and used a piece that I triple threaded through a ring
                  and the pulley, knotted with a figure "8" with a fisherman's as backup
                  on each end. This should be easily seen in the photo. I then sealed
                  the fisherman's at each end with a match to prevent any undoing of the
                  knot (black burn on the knots). Since the line holds 600 lbs. this
                  should hold no problem as a temporary ring attachment, though I'll
                  take suggestions on how to attach the ring to the pulley better.

                  The green LE line is attached to this first ring. The red LE line is
                  attached to the second ring, which is threaded through the first ring
                  and the second ring resides below (nearer the ksurfer) and stops at
                  the first ring. This prevents the LE lines from being different
                  lengths. Each line is the same.

                  I didn't take a picture of the ball on the red line to prevent the bar
                  from flying up all the way to the kite but I probably should. Here is
                  how I attached the ball...

                  I took a small piece of leader line and threaded it into the ball,
                  knotting both ends with one end longer than the other. I then put
                  another knot at the end of the longer end, just line the "adjusters"
                  at the end of the leader lines on the bar with three knots. Then I
                  took the red LE line and folded it, looped it back, spreaded it, and
                  threaded the long end of the knotted ball line (about an inch long)
                  through the hole and pulled it taut. This is currently how the ball is
                  held in place approximately 3/4 to 1 times the distance of the kite
                  LE.

                  Not in the LineRings photo, another leash runs from the red LE ring to
                  the harness.

                  SnapShackle: Mel, as you can see, I am using the pin shackle, not the
                  one you suggested. I can see the reasoning for your suggestion, but it
                  would take a few weeks to get it and I didn't want to wait. The
                  snapshackle is attached to the chicken loop via a SS O Ring. The ring
                  is threaded looped through the chicken loop after the clear PVC was
                  cut off (that was the most difficult part - removing the PVC cover).
                  The ball is held on with some 800lb rope bought at the marine store.
                  The loop at the end of the ball is where the wrist line was, but is
                  now removed. I will probably put it back on for a few more times until
                  I get the hang of grabbing the ball.

                  Diagram.jpg shows a snapshackle at the harness to completely remove
                  myself from the kite. I do not have this (yet)...

                  Comments wanted...sorry for the long post.

                  V

                  --- In ksurfschool@y..., "Alex Leonard" <abl_2000@y...> wrote:
                  > Surfsup,
                  > for those of us following your safety-system construction thread -
                  > yes, please do post a photo. Could you also perhaps post a
                  hand-drawn
                  > diagram to "interpret" the photo (maybe with part descriptions). It
                  > would make it a lot easier to duplicate. I for one am still a bit
                  > confused by the typed description - a picture might clear up some of
                  > the words).
                  >
                  > Mel,
                  > since you are the originator of this set-up, perhaps you would be
                  > willing to comment on the above posts once they hit the discussion
                  > group. Just to make sure we all end up building the thing right...
                  > Out of curiosity Mel, is this what you use?
                  >
                  > With safety in mind and much appreciation! Alex.
                • Mel
                  ... It s the 2673 I recommend, so I hope that didn t happen just because you got the numbers reversed. A friend of mine had seen my 2673, & came in all proud
                  Message 8 of 28 , Oct 7, 2001
                    <surfsup@...> wrote:

                    > ...the only Wichard snap shackle that I could find was
                    > not the 2763 model, it was a different one - the 2473 ...

                    It's the 2673 I recommend, so I hope that didn't happen just because you got
                    the numbers reversed. A friend of mine had seen my 2673, & came in all
                    proud that he'd saved a few bucks* by getting a different unit. He tried to
                    prove that it released fine, by getting me to pull on one end while he
                    released (which happened to work). I then hooked it back into the OPENED
                    shackle, & had him pull (it stuck), showing him how it can fail to release.
                    I strongly recommend trying this with your unit: hook it into the open end,
                    & TRY to make it stick with constant tension on it. We did agree that it
                    was probably still safer than being hooked into a plain trim loop, that you
                    can't get out of at all when overpowered.

                    *negligible, compared to any hospital bill, or work time lost due to injury.

                    AND Alex Leonard <abl_2000@...> wrote:

                    > Mel,
                    > since you are the originator of this set-up, perhaps you would be
                    > willing to comment on the above posts once they hit the discussion
                    > group. Just to make sure we all end up building the thing right...

                    I'll certainly try. If you don't see my response, please forward it to me
                    directly, preferably with "Mel" at the beginning of the subject line (I get
                    hundreds of posts sometimes, & may not notice another which only shows as
                    "Re: [ksurfschool] Re: Help regarding..." in my in-box)

                    > Out of curiosity Mel, is this what you use?

                    I use a Wichard 2673 with the release line fed through the "B" opening to a
                    grab ball, but I strongly recommend starting with a wrist-activated release.
                    In the past I've used MANY different snap shackle systems, always trying to
                    be as simple as possible, while maintaining what I feel is sufficient safety
                    for my particular needs.

                    Mel
                  • Mel
                    ... Here s one! Eliminate the line AND O-ring, by using the shackle that s built in to the top of your pulley. In other words, just larks head the green
                    Message 9 of 28 , Oct 7, 2001
                      <surfsup@...> wrote:

                      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/kitesurf/files/surfsup/
                      > ...
                      > LineRings: Shows the two "O" rings at the pulley. To attach the first
                      > "O" ring to the pulley, I cut the extra 20 ft. leader line supplied
                      > ..., though I'll
                      > take suggestions on how to attach the ring to the pulley better.

                      Here's one! Eliminate the line AND O-ring, by using the shackle that's
                      built in to the top of your pulley. In other words, just larks head the
                      green sleeve over the shackle, feed the red sleeve through the shackle &
                      larks head over an O-ring.

                      By the way, the max working load of that Ronstan pulley is likely only about
                      550 pounds (if it's a #20100), but that's typically about half the actual
                      breaking load, so it should be okay.

                      Just since it appears on your photo, I'm sure you're aware that the neoprene
                      caps on the end winders are meant to go OVER the line, once it's wound onto
                      the bar.

                      > I didn't take a picture of the ball on the red line to prevent the bar
                      > from flying up all the way to the kite but I probably should. Here is
                      > how I attached the ball...
                      >
                      > I took a small piece of leader line and threaded it into the ball,
                      > knotting both ends with one end longer than the other. I then put
                      > another knot at the end of the longer end, just line the "adjusters"
                      > at the end of the leader lines on the bar with three knots. Then I
                      > took the red LE line and folded it, looped it back, spreaded it, and
                      > threaded the long end of the knotted ball line (about an inch long)
                      > through the hole and pulled it taut.

                      While that MAY be strong enough with Q-Power line*, or sleeved plain line, I
                      wouldn't trust it on a front line of an inflatable. With plain line, since
                      you have to sleeve it anyway, you could just as easily just tie figure-8s on
                      either side of a ball, as shown in "stopper ball" in the MelMods file of the
                      Mel's Stuff group file folder.
                      *It may in fact be quite a GOOD idea for Q-Line, IF it's strong enough,
                      since it would eliminate the need for sleeving it JUST to get the diameter
                      large enough to stop pulling through the hole in the ball.

                      > This is currently how the ball is
                      > held in place approximately 3/4 to 1 times the distance of the kite
                      > LE.

                      With an ARC you need to use 100% of the LE length, & it doesn't hurt to do
                      the same with an inflatable too.

                      > SnapShackle: Mel, as you can see, I am using the pin shackle,...
                      > The ball is held on ...

                      In which case* you may as well just larks head the trim loop around the
                      closed end of the snap shackle, & "snap" the opening end directly to your
                      spreader hook. (by the way, how's it held to the hook now?)

                      *with a grab ball instead of a wrist release, & since there's nowhere to
                      attach the leash to swivel (like the opening just above the release
                      mechanism of a 2673)

                      > The loop at the end of the ball is where the wrist line was, but is
                      > now removed. I will probably put it back on for a few more times until
                      > I get the hang of grabbing the ball.

                      A VERY good idea. Once you switch back to the ball, you can reverse the
                      shackle as noted above.

                      > Diagram.jpg shows a snapshackle at the harness to completely remove
                      > myself from the kite. I do not have this (yet)...

                      You may not need it. What's the traffic like where you ride?

                      > Comments wanted...sorry for the long post.

                      You call that long! Next time just delete the irrelevant quote from the
                      bottom.

                      I'd suggest moving the black rigging ball about 4" in from the end of the
                      trim line, where it comes out of the cleat, so if you accidentally let it
                      slip on the water, & the ball goes all the way to the cleat, you'll have
                      half a chance of pulling it back out to back off from full power setting.

                      Mel
                    • surfsup@ragingbull.com
                      Mel, --It s the 2673 I recommend, so I hope that didn t happen just because you got the numbers reversed. A friend of mine had seen my 2673, & came in all
                      Message 10 of 28 , Oct 7, 2001
                        Mel,

                        --It's the 2673 I recommend, so I hope that didn't happen just because
                        you got the numbers reversed. A friend of mine had seen my 2673, &
                        came in all proud that he'd saved a few bucks* by getting a different
                        unit. He tried to prove that it released fine, by getting me to pull
                        on one end while he released (which happened to work). I then hooked
                        it back into the OPENED shackle, & had him pull (it stuck), showing
                        him how it can fail to release. I strongly recommend trying this with
                        your unit: hook it into the open end, & TRY to make it stick with
                        constant tension on it. We did agree that it was probably still safer
                        than being hooked into a plain trim loop, that you can't get out of at
                        all when overpowered.--

                        I would like to add that I bought a proline seat harness which has a
                        safety release on the spreader bar. I can pull a velcro loop and the
                        spreader bar releases from the harness. So in effect, I have two
                        safetys at the harness level. At some point, I will get the 2673
                        Wichard. I have no problem spending the extra cash.

                        V
                      • surfsup@ragingbull.com
                        Mel, Here s one! Eliminate the line AND O-ring, by using the shackle that s built in to the top of your pulley. In other words, just larks head the green
                        Message 11 of 28 , Oct 7, 2001
                          Mel,

                          "Here's one! Eliminate the line AND O-ring, by using the shackle
                          that's built in to the top of your pulley. In other words, just larks
                          head the green sleeve over the shackle, feed the red sleeve through
                          the shackle & larks head over an O-ring."

                          -Great idea!

                          "Just since it appears on your photo, I'm sure you're aware that the
                          neoprene caps on the end winders are meant to go OVER the line, once
                          it's wound onto the bar."

                          -Hah! No I didn't! what a kook I am...

                          "as shown in "stopper ball" in the MelMods file of the Mel's Stuff
                          group file folder."

                          -I'll change my setup to me more like your picture.

                          "With an ARC you need to use 100% of the LE length, & it doesn't hurt
                          to do the same with an inflatable too."

                          -I read this before, so that's why I "larks head" attached the ball to
                          the line so it can quickly be changed for the ARC i'm expecting to be
                          delivered this week. Is there a way to do your setup in the picture
                          that is adjustable since I'll be using the same bar for both the
                          Sligshot Fuel 140 and the ARC 640?

                          "In which case* you may as well just larks head the trim loop around
                          the closed end of the snap shackle, & "snap" the opening end directly
                          to your spreader hook. (by the way, how's it held to the hook now?)"

                          -I don't understand, you're saying you should be attached at all times
                          in the loop? Sometimes I am not attached, but since you're asking,
                          with another metal ring that I tie on with a small piece of 1"
                          webbing. I am actually concerned about the extra length to the sheet
                          line with the webbing, the O ring, the shackle at the harness, and the
                          O ring with the triple line at the pulley. Does this extra length
                          affect the kite's flying characteristics? (your suggestion to tie the
                          green line directly to the pulley and feed the red line attached to
                          the ring through the opening will eliminate the upper extra length -
                          brilliant)

                          "You may not need it. What's the traffic like where you ride?"

                          -Right now I have been flying on land, the board is still dry. I pick
                          a LARGE open field to be safe. No one around at all. I'm controlling
                          the kite fine, though (except for the 25 mph day!). This AM was 1-3
                          mph with a 5-8 mph gust here and there. I could get the kite up for
                          about 30 seconds to a couple minutes, but then dead calm and it would
                          fall like a leaf from a tree....

                          "I'd suggest moving the black rigging ball about 4" in from the end of
                          the trim line, where it comes out of the cleat, so if you accidentally
                          let it slip on the water, & the ball goes all the way to the cleat,
                          you'll have half a chance of pulling it back out to back off from full
                          power setting."

                          I'm trying to understand this one...You're saying from the photo
                          (fullbar.jpg) to halve the distance of the trim line measured from the
                          black ball to the cleat? To accomplish this I should, in effect,
                          lengthen the trim line? I'm glad you brought this up, since I'm
                          clueless about the trim line and what it should be set for. Also, the
                          sheeting range seems VERY small to this rookie. Almost negligible.
                          What am I missing? Should I be adjusting the front lines to a certain
                          length relative to the rear lines?

                          V


                          --- In ksurfschool@y..., Mel <kitebord@p...> wrote:
                          > <surfsup@r...> wrote:
                          >
                          > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/kitesurf/files/surfsup/
                          > > ...
                          > > LineRings: Shows the two "O" rings at the pulley. To attach the
                          first
                          > > "O" ring to the pulley, I cut the extra 20 ft. leader line
                          supplied
                          > > ..., though I'll
                          > > take suggestions on how to attach the ring to the pulley better.
                          >
                          > Here's one! Eliminate the line AND O-ring, by using the shackle
                          that's
                          > built in to the top of your pulley. In other words, just larks head
                          the
                          > green sleeve over the shackle, feed the red sleeve through the
                          shackle &
                          > larks head over an O-ring.
                          >
                          > By the way, the max working load of that Ronstan pulley is likely
                          only about
                          > 550 pounds (if it's a #20100), but that's typically about half the
                          actual
                          > breaking load, so it should be okay.
                          >
                          > Just since it appears on your photo, I'm sure you're aware that the
                          neoprene
                          > caps on the end winders are meant to go OVER the line, once it's
                          wound onto
                          > the bar.
                          >
                          > > I didn't take a picture of the ball on the red line to prevent the
                          bar
                          > > from flying up all the way to the kite but I probably should. Here
                          is
                          > > how I attached the ball...
                          > >
                          > > I took a small piece of leader line and threaded it into the ball,
                          > > knotting both ends with one end longer than the other. I then put
                          > > another knot at the end of the longer end, just line the
                          "adjusters"
                          > > at the end of the leader lines on the bar with three knots. Then I
                          > > took the red LE line and folded it, looped it back, spreaded it,
                          and
                          > > threaded the long end of the knotted ball line (about an inch
                          long)
                          > > through the hole and pulled it taut.
                          >
                          > While that MAY be strong enough with Q-Power line*, or sleeved plain
                          line, I
                          > wouldn't trust it on a front line of an inflatable. With plain
                          line, since
                          > you have to sleeve it anyway, you could just as easily just tie
                          figure-8s on
                          > either side of a ball, as shown in "stopper ball" in the MelMods
                          file of the
                          > Mel's Stuff group file folder.
                          > *It may in fact be quite a GOOD idea for Q-Line, IF it's strong
                          enough,
                          > since it would eliminate the need for sleeving it JUST to get the
                          diameter
                          > large enough to stop pulling through the hole in the ball.
                          >
                          > > This is currently how the ball is
                          > > held in place approximately 3/4 to 1 times the distance of the
                          kite
                          > > LE.
                          >
                          > With an ARC you need to use 100% of the LE length, & it doesn't hurt
                          to do
                          > the same with an inflatable too.
                          >
                          > > SnapShackle: Mel, as you can see, I am using the pin shackle,...
                          > > The ball is held on ...
                          >
                          > In which case* you may as well just larks head the trim loop around
                          the
                          > closed end of the snap shackle, & "snap" the opening end directly to
                          your
                          > spreader hook. (by the way, how's it held to the hook now?)
                          >
                          > *with a grab ball instead of a wrist release, & since there's
                          nowhere to
                          > attach the leash to swivel (like the opening just above the release
                          > mechanism of a 2673)
                          >
                          > > The loop at the end of the ball is where the wrist line was, but
                          is
                          > > now removed. I will probably put it back on for a few more times
                          until
                          > > I get the hang of grabbing the ball.
                          >
                          > A VERY good idea. Once you switch back to the ball, you can reverse
                          the
                          > shackle as noted above.
                          >
                          > > Diagram.jpg shows a snapshackle at the harness to completely
                          remove
                          > > myself from the kite. I do not have this (yet)...
                          >
                          > You may not need it. What's the traffic like where you ride?
                          >
                          > > Comments wanted...sorry for the long post.
                          >
                          > You call that long! Next time just delete the irrelevant quote from
                          the
                          > bottom.
                          >
                          > I'd suggest moving the black rigging ball about 4" in from the end
                          of the
                          > trim line, where it comes out of the cleat, so if you accidentally
                          let it
                          > slip on the water, & the ball goes all the way to the cleat, you'll
                          have
                          > half a chance of pulling it back out to back off from full power
                          setting.
                          >
                          > Mel
                        • Suntrax
                          V? Is that a Proline or Prolimit harness with the QR on the spreader? and have you actually tried the spreader bar release under full tension? i.e. does the
                          Message 12 of 28 , Oct 8, 2001
                            V?

                            Is that a Proline or Prolimit harness with the QR on the spreader? and have
                            you actually tried the spreader bar release under full tension? i.e. does
                            the
                            trim loop/harness line cleanly detach from the spreader hook when the bar is
                            released at one end while you are being dragged in the water or on the
                            beach?

                            Thanks.

                            Brian


                            Brian Wilson
                            Suntrax
                            Tel/fax 027 21 5560044
                            cell; 0824656696
                            www.suntrax.co.za

                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: <surfsup@...>
                            To: <ksurfschool@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Monday, October 08, 2001 5:13 AM
                            Subject: [ksurfschool] Re: Help regarding safety system for new bar. COM


                            > Mel,
                            >
                            > --It's the 2673 I recommend, so I hope that didn't happen just because
                            > you got the numbers reversed. A friend of mine had seen my 2673, &
                            > came in all proud that he'd saved a few bucks* by getting a different
                            > unit. He tried to prove that it released fine, by getting me to pull
                            > on one end while he released (which happened to work). I then hooked
                            > it back into the OPENED shackle, & had him pull (it stuck), showing
                            > him how it can fail to release. I strongly recommend trying this with
                            > your unit: hook it into the open end, & TRY to make it stick with
                            > constant tension on it. We did agree that it was probably still safer
                            > than being hooked into a plain trim loop, that you can't get out of at
                            > all when overpowered.--
                            >
                            > I would like to add that I bought a proline seat harness which has a
                            > safety release on the spreader bar. I can pull a velcro loop and the
                            > spreader bar releases from the harness. So in effect, I have two
                            > safetys at the harness level. At some point, I will get the 2673
                            > Wichard. I have no problem spending the extra cash.
                            >
                            > V
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                            >
                            >
                            >
                          • surfsup@ragingbull.com
                            Brian, Is that a Proline or Prolimit harness with the QR on the spreader? and have you actually tried the spreader bar release under full tension? i.e. does
                            Message 13 of 28 , Oct 8, 2001
                              Brian,

                              "Is that a Proline or Prolimit harness with the QR on the spreader?
                              and have you actually tried the spreader bar release under full
                              tension? i.e. does the trim loop/harness line cleanly detach from the
                              spreader hook when the bar is released at one end while you are being
                              dragged in the water or on the beach?"

                              Its the prolimit kiteseat harness:

                              http://www.pro-limit.nl/2001/displayitem.php3?item_id=220

                              On the spreader bar, you can see the release on the left side in this
                              graphic:

                              http://www.pro-limit.nl/2001/displayitem.php3?item_id=235

                              My hook doesn't swivel, and in answer to your question....no, I
                              haven't had time to test it yet. I only built the safety into the
                              kite rigging on Saturday since my dealer never sent me anything. It
                              was huge winds and too out of control to even fly for a rookie like
                              myself. Yesterday, Sunday, was dead calm winds where I could barely
                              launch the kite and keep it there for more than a minute or two.

                              I'll hopefully get good testing done this weekend coming up. I'll let
                              the thread know how everything works. I will also make the adjustment
                              on the line rigging to get rid of the tripled-up leader and the O
                              ring that is not necessary. I also want heavier line on the
                              snapshackle release grab ball. First, so it does not break. Second,
                              so it does not tangle around stuff...

                              V
                            • Mel
                              ... That s not really the case, since if your snap shackle fails to release it s still attached to your spreader, which only releases on one side. Also, as
                              Message 14 of 28 , Oct 8, 2001
                                <surfsup@...> wrote:

                                > I would like to add that I bought a proline seat harness which has a
                                > safety release on the spreader bar. I can pull a velcro loop and the
                                > spreader bar releases from the harness. So in effect, I have two
                                > safetys at the harness level.

                                That's not really the case, since if your snap shackle fails to release it's
                                still attached to your spreader, which only releases on one side. Also, as
                                Brian pointed out, the spreader may not even release you from a plain
                                harness line (it was not designed to do so, only for easy manual
                                entry/exit).

                                > At some point, I will get the 2673
                                > Wichard. I have no problem spending the extra cash.

                                Good

                                Mel
                              • Mel
                                ... Then I guess I should mention that they should be replaced while riding (to cushion any impact & so they don t get ripped right off). ... We ve all been
                                Message 15 of 28 , Oct 8, 2001
                                  <surfsup@...> wrote:

                                  > > "Just since it appears on your photo, I'm sure you're aware that the
                                  > > neoprene caps on the end winders are meant to go OVER the line, once
                                  > > it's wound onto the bar."
                                  >
                                  > -Hah! No I didn't!

                                  Then I guess I should mention that they should be replaced while riding (to
                                  cushion any impact & so they don't get ripped right off).

                                  > what a kook I am...

                                  We've all been "kook's" at some time or other. Just the other day I
                                  couldn't believe it took me so long to figure out how* to prevent my 2673
                                  from prematurely releasing.
                                  * By feeding the release line through the "B" opening.

                                  > -I read this before, so that's why I "larks head" attached the ball to
                                  > the line so it can quickly be changed for the ARC i'm expecting to be
                                  > delivered this week. Is there a way to do your setup in the picture
                                  > that is adjustable since I'll be using the same bar for both the
                                  > Sligshot Fuel 140 and the ARC 640?

                                  No matter what, without Q-Line, you have to sleeve it. Using your cool idea
                                  of a "captured clove hitch" around a very short length of line*, you should
                                  be able to easily slide it to wherever you want, sleeving & all.

                                  *I think you had a stopper ball on that short line, but with 2 figure-8s on
                                  it, you might not even need a ball, depending on the size of the opening of
                                  the shackle on your pulley - just check to see if it will stop it with a bit
                                  of tension)

                                  > > "In which case* you may as well just larks head the trim loop around
                                  > > the closed end of the snap shackle, & "snap" the opening end directly
                                  > > to your spreader hook. (by the way, how's it held to the hook now?)"
                                  >
                                  > -I don't understand, you're saying you should be attached at all times
                                  > in the loop? Sometimes I am not attached, but since you're asking,
                                  > with another metal ring that I tie on with a small piece of 1"
                                  > webbing.

                                  So you sometimes hook the spreader into the huge o-ring on the trim line?
                                  You realize that it's impossible to get out of that ring when you really
                                  need to, right? That's the whole purpose of the snap shackle, so I guess I
                                  AM saying you should be attached at all times (with a snap shackle that
                                  releases RELIABLY), in which case you can do away with the huge o-ring
                                  (lark's head the fixed end of the snap shackle in it's place), and the
                                  "other metal ring" (by "snapping" the shackle directly to the harness hook -
                                  yes it's barely off-center, but you can adjust your harness webbing to
                                  compensate if you really wanted).

                                  > I am actually concerned about the extra length to the sheet
                                  > line with the webbing, the O ring, the shackle at the harness, and the
                                  > O ring with the triple line at the pulley. Does this extra length
                                  > affect the kite's flying characteristics?

                                  Yes. You won't be able to sheet in as far if you have too much "stuff" on
                                  the line between the bar & the spreader, until you switch to a "free bar"
                                  (no line through the bar).

                                  > (your suggestion to tie the
                                  > green line directly to the pulley and feed the red line attached to
                                  > the ring through the opening will eliminate the upper extra length -

                                  That length could be compensated for by adjusting at the cleat (which, by
                                  the way, reduces your ability to sheet OUT, until you switch to a free bar).

                                  > > What's the traffic like where you ride?
                                  >
                                  > -Right now I have been flying on land, the board is still dry. I pick
                                  > a LARGE open field to be safe. No one around at all. I'm controlling
                                  > the kite fine, though (except for the 25 mph day!). This AM was 1-3
                                  > mph with a 5-8 mph gust here and there. I could get the kite up for
                                  > about 30 seconds to a couple minutes, but then dead calm and it would
                                  > fall like a leaf from a tree....

                                  Actually light wind can be really good for certain types of practice, like
                                  really low passes, parallel to the ground, back & forth, which gives a good
                                  approximation of the feel while riding.

                                  > "I'd suggest moving the black rigging ball about 4" in from the end of
                                  > the trim line, where it comes out of the cleat, so if you accidentally
                                  > let it slip on the water, & the ball goes all the way to the cleat,
                                  > you'll have half a chance of pulling it back out to back off from full
                                  > power setting."
                                  >
                                  > I'm trying to understand this one...You're saying from the photo
                                  > (fullbar.jpg) to halve the distance of the trim line measured from the
                                  > black ball to the cleat?

                                  Let me try again: You want to always have a stopper knot (or ball, although
                                  in this case a plain knot would be fine) far enough from the end of the
                                  line, that when that knot is doing it's job (keeping the line from slipping
                                  completely through) there's still enough line exposed to grab & pull it back
                                  out again. Ideally, it's usually best to have one knot to stop it, &
                                  another at the very end, to grab when you're trying to pull it back out
                                  again.

                                  > To accomplish this I should, in effect,
                                  > lengthen the trim line?

                                  You may need to lengthen the line to compensate for the new knot position.
                                  I'm a little curious what adjustment system you had before (webbing strap?)
                                  & why you eliminated it.

                                  > I'm glad you brought this up, since I'm
                                  > clueless about the trim line and what it should be set for. Also, the
                                  > sheeting range seems VERY small to this rookie. Almost negligible.
                                  > What am I missing? Should I be adjusting the front lines to a certain
                                  > length relative to the rear lines?

                                  You DEFINITELY want to be able to sheet out enough to make the rear lines
                                  slack, even in strong wind when the TE pulls away more, & you should also be
                                  able to sheet IN enough to make the FRONT lines slack (on an inflatable),
                                  although depending on the model, size, & your weight, that may be a bit more
                                  than needed for normal riding.

                                  Mel
                                • surfsup@ragingbull.com
                                  Mel, In terms of the strength of the 800 lb. line, I am referring to it fraying, etc. But the sleeve of a PVC pipe will prevent that, as well, so that s all I
                                  Message 16 of 28 , Oct 9, 2001
                                    Mel,

                                    In terms of the strength of the 800 lb. line, I am referring to it
                                    fraying, etc. But the sleeve of a PVC pipe will prevent that, as
                                    well, so that's all I need to do, you're right there...as usual!

                                    >>"*I think you had a stopper ball on that short line, but with 2
                                    figure-8s on it, you might not even need a ball,..."

                                    You're right, I may not need the ball. I'll look into it and let ya
                                    know...

                                    >>"<b>So you sometimes hook the spreader into the huge o-ring on the
                                    trim line?</b>"

                                    No, I meant another O ring that was not pictured that I used to fit
                                    into the snap shackle from the harness with 1" webbing. But I am
                                    going to snap right into the harness, I guess. I didn't think you
                                    were supposed to be snapped in. I saw some videos on the internet and
                                    on the "How to Rip" video that showed guys unhooking and then hooking
                                    back in. I thought that was normal. Also, a lot of guys are talking
                                    about not even using the smart loop on the other thread. As a rookie,
                                    I will snap in, though. I know, I know..."Bad rookie, Bad rookie..."

                                    >>"Let me try again: You want to always have a stopper knot (or ball,
                                    although in this case a plain knot would be fine) far enough from the
                                    end of the line, that when that knot is doing it's job (keeping the
                                    line from slipping completely through) there's still enough line
                                    exposed to grab & pull it back out again. Ideally, it's usually best
                                    to have one knot to stop it, & another at the very end, to grab when
                                    you're trying to pull it back out again."

                                    Dammit, Mel! Another great idea...I got it. Leave four inches of rope
                                    hanging past the ball so if it goes all the way to the cleat, you can
                                    still grab it to pull it!

                                    One Q regarding this, however. As I said before, it doesn't seem like
                                    there's much more than about 5 inches of sheeting length since the
                                    line is doubled-up out to the pulley and back to the cleat. So for
                                    each two inches of sheeting, there is only one inch of sheet actually
                                    occuring. If I do this, it will severely limit what sheeting range I
                                    have, which is about 5 inches MAX.

                                    >>"You DEFINITELY want to be able to sheet out enough to make the
                                    rear lines slack, even in strong wind when the TE pulls away more, &
                                    you should also be able to sheet IN enough to make the FRONT lines
                                    slack (on an inflatable), although depending on the model, size, &
                                    your weight, that may be a bit more than needed for normal riding."

                                    So how much sheeting (inches) should I expect to need? I will go home
                                    tonight after work and post how much range there is. This is a bar
                                    stock from Slingshot (er, was, before all the changes) and I haven't
                                    done anything to the configuration of the smart loop, cleat, pulley,
                                    or sheet-length at all.

                                    V
                                  • surfsup@ragingbull.com
                                    With the extra O ring that the snap shackle was clipped on, I did have the two to release, but now that I will go directly to the harness with the snapshackle,
                                    Message 17 of 28 , Oct 9, 2001
                                      With the extra O ring that the snap shackle was clipped on, I did
                                      have the two to release, but now that I will go directly to the
                                      harness with the snapshackle, it will be the shackle, or nothing...

                                      Wind is blowing up this week at a steady 12-25 mph each day for the
                                      last few days. I want the ARC to do the testing. Hopefully it will be
                                      here soon!


                                      --- In ksurfschool@y..., Mel <kitebord@p...> wrote:
                                      > <surfsup@r...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > > I would like to add that I bought a proline seat harness which
                                      has a
                                      > > safety release on the spreader bar. I can pull a velcro loop and
                                      the
                                      > > spreader bar releases from the harness. So in effect, I have two
                                      > > safetys at the harness level.
                                      >
                                      > That's not really the case, since if your snap shackle fails to
                                      release it's
                                      > still attached to your spreader, which only releases on one side.
                                      Also, as
                                      > Brian pointed out, the spreader may not even release you from a
                                      plain
                                      > harness line (it was not designed to do so, only for easy manual
                                      > entry/exit).
                                      >
                                      > > At some point, I will get the 2673
                                      > > Wichard. I have no problem spending the extra cash.
                                      >
                                      > Good
                                      >
                                      > Mel
                                    • surfsup@ragingbull.com
                                      I m pissed! I wrote a nice reply and Yahoo never posted it. So this ... figure-8s on it, you might not even need a ball,... You re right. I ll look into that.
                                      Message 18 of 28 , Oct 9, 2001
                                        I'm pissed! I wrote a nice reply and Yahoo never posted it. So this
                                        one will be shorter:

                                        >>"*I think you had a stopper ball on that short line, but with 2
                                        figure-8s on it, you might not even need a ball,..."

                                        You're right. I'll look into that.

                                        >>"So you sometimes hook the spreader into the huge o-ring on the
                                        trim line? You realize that it's impossible to get out of that ring
                                        when you really need to, right? That's the whole purpose of the snap
                                        shackle, so I guess I AM saying you should be attached at all times
                                        (with a snap shackle that releases RELIABLY), in which case you can
                                        do away with the huge o-ring..."

                                        There is another O Ring between the shackle and the harness not in
                                        the picture. I attach it to the shackle with 1" webbing. I will get
                                        rid of this O ring and snap directly into the shackle as suggested.
                                        Makes sense. I was watching internet videos and the "How to Rip"
                                        video which shows guys unhooking and hooking back into the smart loop
                                        so I figured I should not be permanently snapped in. But I guess as a
                                        rookie, I should be. I know...I know..."bad rookie. Bad"

                                        >>"Let me try again: You want to always have a stopper knot (or ball,
                                        although in this case a plain knot would be fine) far enough from the
                                        end of the line, that when that knot is doing it's job (keeping the
                                        line from slipping completely through) there's still enough line
                                        exposed to grab & pull it back out again. Ideally, it's usually best
                                        to have one knot to stop it, & another at the very end, to grab when
                                        you're trying to pull it back out again."

                                        Damn Mel! Another good idea! I've got it. Leave some rope hanging if
                                        the ball gets jammed up to the cleat so you can still grab it to pull
                                        it. Makes a lot of sense...

                                        >>"You may need to lengthen the line to compensate for the new knot
                                        position. I'm a little curious what adjustment system you had before
                                        (webbing strap?) & why you eliminated it."

                                        Its a stock bar from Slingshot prior to the safety modifications. I
                                        never made any changes to the sheet, smart loop, pulley, cleat area.
                                        I'm concerned about the total sheeting range. Since the sheet rope is
                                        doubled-up out of the cleat to the pullet and back to the cleat, for
                                        each inch I sheet in/out, it results in only a half-inch of actual
                                        sheeting distance. So since the total distance of the sheet rope from
                                        the cleat to the pulley back to the cleat is about a foot, there's
                                        only 5-6 inches of sheetable rope there. Doesn't seem like much to
                                        me. Do I need to lengthen this rope?

                                        >>"You DEFINITELY want to be able to sheet out enough to make the
                                        rear lines slack, even in strong wind when the TE pulls away more, &
                                        you should also be able to sheet IN enough to make the FRONT lines
                                        slack (on an inflatable), although depending on the model, size, &
                                        your weight, that may be a bit more than needed for normal riding."

                                        See, I don't think there's enough to accomplish what you say here.
                                        I'll measure the total length of the sheet rope and post it tonight
                                        after work.

                                        V



                                        --- In ksurfschool@y..., Mel <kitebord@p...> wrote:
                                        > <surfsup@r...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > > > "Just since it appears on your photo, I'm sure you're aware
                                        that the
                                        > > > neoprene caps on the end winders are meant to go OVER the line,
                                        once
                                        > > > it's wound onto the bar."
                                        > >
                                        > > -Hah! No I didn't!
                                        >
                                        > Then I guess I should mention that they should be replaced while
                                        riding (to
                                        > cushion any impact & so they don't get ripped right off).
                                        >
                                        > > what a kook I am...
                                        >
                                        > We've all been "kook's" at some time or other. Just the other day I
                                        > couldn't believe it took me so long to figure out how* to prevent
                                        my 2673
                                        > from prematurely releasing.
                                        > * By feeding the release line through the "B" opening.
                                        >
                                        > > -I read this before, so that's why I "larks head" attached the
                                        ball to
                                        > > the line so it can quickly be changed for the ARC i'm expecting
                                        to be
                                        > > delivered this week. Is there a way to do your setup in the
                                        picture
                                        > > that is adjustable since I'll be using the same bar for both the
                                        > > Sligshot Fuel 140 and the ARC 640?
                                        >
                                        > No matter what, without Q-Line, you have to sleeve it. Using your
                                        cool idea
                                        > of a "captured clove hitch" around a very short length of line*,
                                        you should
                                        > be able to easily slide it to wherever you want, sleeving & all.
                                        >
                                        > *I think you had a stopper ball on that short line, but with 2
                                        figure-8s on
                                        > it, you might not even need a ball, depending on the size of the
                                        opening of
                                        > the shackle on your pulley - just check to see if it will stop it
                                        with a bit
                                        > of tension)
                                        >
                                        > > > "In which case* you may as well just larks head the trim loop
                                        around
                                        > > > the closed end of the snap shackle, & "snap" the opening end
                                        directly
                                        > > > to your spreader hook. (by the way, how's it held to the hook
                                        now?)"
                                        > >
                                        > > -I don't understand, you're saying you should be attached at all
                                        times
                                        > > in the loop? Sometimes I am not attached, but since you're asking,
                                        > > with another metal ring that I tie on with a small piece of 1"
                                        > > webbing.
                                        >
                                        > So you sometimes hook the spreader into the huge o-ring on the trim
                                        line?
                                        > You realize that it's impossible to get out of that ring when you
                                        really
                                        > need to, right? That's the whole purpose of the snap shackle, so I
                                        guess I
                                        > AM saying you should be attached at all times (with a snap shackle
                                        that
                                        > releases RELIABLY), in which case you can do away with the huge o-
                                        ring
                                        > (lark's head the fixed end of the snap shackle in it's place), and
                                        the
                                        > "other metal ring" (by "snapping" the shackle directly to the
                                        harness hook -
                                        > yes it's barely off-center, but you can adjust your harness webbing
                                        to
                                        > compensate if you really wanted).
                                        >
                                        > > I am actually concerned about the extra length to the sheet
                                        > > line with the webbing, the O ring, the shackle at the harness,
                                        and the
                                        > > O ring with the triple line at the pulley. Does this extra length
                                        > > affect the kite's flying characteristics?
                                        >
                                        > Yes. You won't be able to sheet in as far if you have too
                                        much "stuff" on
                                        > the line between the bar & the spreader, until you switch to
                                        a "free bar"
                                        > (no line through the bar).
                                        >
                                        > > (your suggestion to tie the
                                        > > green line directly to the pulley and feed the red line attached
                                        to
                                        > > the ring through the opening will eliminate the upper extra
                                        length -
                                        >
                                        > That length could be compensated for by adjusting at the cleat
                                        (which, by
                                        > the way, reduces your ability to sheet OUT, until you switch to a
                                        free bar).
                                        >
                                        > > > What's the traffic like where you ride?
                                        > >
                                        > > -Right now I have been flying on land, the board is still dry. I
                                        pick
                                        > > a LARGE open field to be safe. No one around at all. I'm
                                        controlling
                                        > > the kite fine, though (except for the 25 mph day!). This AM was 1-
                                        3
                                        > > mph with a 5-8 mph gust here and there. I could get the kite up
                                        for
                                        > > about 30 seconds to a couple minutes, but then dead calm and it
                                        would
                                        > > fall like a leaf from a tree....
                                        >
                                        > Actually light wind can be really good for certain types of
                                        practice, like
                                        > really low passes, parallel to the ground, back & forth, which
                                        gives a good
                                        > approximation of the feel while riding.
                                        >
                                        > > "I'd suggest moving the black rigging ball about 4" in from the
                                        end of
                                        > > the trim line, where it comes out of the cleat, so if you
                                        accidentally
                                        > > let it slip on the water, & the ball goes all the way to the
                                        cleat,
                                        > > you'll have half a chance of pulling it back out to back off from
                                        full
                                        > > power setting."
                                        > >
                                        > > I'm trying to understand this one...You're saying from the photo
                                        > > (fullbar.jpg) to halve the distance of the trim line measured
                                        from the
                                        > > black ball to the cleat?
                                        >
                                        > Let me try again: You want to always have a stopper knot (or ball,
                                        although
                                        > in this case a plain knot would be fine) far enough from the end of
                                        the
                                        > line, that when that knot is doing it's job (keeping the line from
                                        slipping
                                        > completely through) there's still enough line exposed to grab &
                                        pull it back
                                        > out again. Ideally, it's usually best to have one knot to stop it,
                                        &
                                        > another at the very end, to grab when you're trying to pull it back
                                        out
                                        > again.
                                        >
                                        > > To accomplish this I should, in effect,
                                        > > lengthen the trim line?
                                        >
                                        > You may need to lengthen the line to compensate for the new knot
                                        position.
                                        > I'm a little curious what adjustment system you had before (webbing
                                        strap?)
                                        > & why you eliminated it.
                                        >
                                        > > I'm glad you brought this up, since I'm
                                        > > clueless about the trim line and what it should be set for. Also,
                                        the
                                        > > sheeting range seems VERY small to this rookie. Almost negligible.
                                        > > What am I missing? Should I be adjusting the front lines to a
                                        certain
                                        > > length relative to the rear lines?
                                        >
                                        > You DEFINITELY want to be able to sheet out enough to make the rear
                                        lines
                                        > slack, even in strong wind when the TE pulls away more, & you
                                        should also be
                                        > able to sheet IN enough to make the FRONT lines slack (on an
                                        inflatable),
                                        > although depending on the model, size, & your weight, that may be a
                                        bit more
                                        > than needed for normal riding.
                                        >
                                        > Mel
                                      • Mel
                                        ... I guess you could say that s normal , since most stock & even aftermarket systems come set up for that (actual trim LOOP to hook into). The problem is,
                                        Message 19 of 28 , Oct 9, 2001
                                          <surfsup@...> wrote:

                                          > I'm pissed! I wrote a nice reply and Yahoo never posted it.

                                          Relax. It came through, & my responses are with it below:

                                          > I didn't think you
                                          > were supposed to be snapped in. I saw some videos on the internet and
                                          > on the "How to Rip" video that showed guys unhooking and then hooking
                                          > back in. I thought that was normal.

                                          I guess you could say that's "normal", since most stock & even aftermarket
                                          systems come set up for that (actual trim LOOP to hook into). The problem
                                          is, when you most need to get OUT of it in a dangerous emergency, it's
                                          impossible, whereas a snap shackle can pretty much always be released.

                                          > Also, a lot of guys are talking
                                          > about not even using the smart loop on the other thread. As a rookie,
                                          > I will snap in, though. I know, I know..."Bad rookie, Bad rookie..."

                                          If you're snap-shackled in, & want to lock in a fixed sheeting angle, all
                                          you have to do is hook into the main harness line.

                                          > it doesn't seem like
                                          > there's much more than about 5 inches of sheeting length since the
                                          > line is doubled-up out to the pulley and back to the cleat. So for
                                          > each two inches of sheeting, there is only one inch of sheet actually
                                          > occuring. If I do this, it will severely limit what sheeting range I
                                          > have, which is about 5 inches MAX.

                                          You could replace the line with a longer one. There's no need to sew a loop
                                          in the bottom for the snap shackle, just tie it on with a bowline. If you
                                          can't get replacement line by the foot locally, & you're concerned about a
                                          different type of line wearing out before you switch to a "free" bar, just
                                          get a Holt-Allen stancion fairlead, or even just a plain stainless eyebolt
                                          to run the line through instead of running it through the hole in the bar.

                                          > >>"You DEFINITELY want to be able to sheet out enough to make the
                                          > rear ... or ... the FRONT lines
                                          > slack ..."

                                          > So how much sheeting (inches) should I expect to need?

                                          I think most stock systems come with about 8" or so of sheeting, & about the
                                          same amount of adjustment range, in addition to that (but I can't check
                                          without rebooting, since my Word software won't open for me to read my log,
                                          where I recorded the stock measurements). I consider that to be somewhat
                                          minimal, for beginners (I definitely liked having 12" or more of adjustment,
                                          although NOW I use MUCH less, even on an inflatable - but both as a beginner
                                          AND as an advanced rider now, I've ALWAYS liked a LOT of manual sheeting
                                          range - up to 24" with an ARC, although I think 18", or even 12 may be
                                          sufficient for me now with an inflatable). Now that I think of it,
                                          Slingshot 4-line kites have rather narrow tips, which limits angle of attack
                                          range (unfortunately), so you may not need that much movement to cover its
                                          entire range. Your ARC is another matter (as noted above), although again,
                                          you may not need as much as me, since I'm on an 840 & yours is a 630.

                                          > I will go home
                                          > tonight after work and post how much range there is. This is a bar
                                          > stock from Slingshot (er, was, before all the changes) and I haven't
                                          > done anything to the configuration of the smart loop, cleat, pulley,
                                          > or sheet-length at all.

                                          I didn't know that SlingShots came stock with a pulley & cleat for
                                          adjustment. You may be able to get a bit more line "free" by unpicking the
                                          stitches on the (now unused) trim loop, & just tying the end of it through
                                          the fixed end of the snap shackle with a bowline (as long as you don't want
                                          to use the more safe wrist-activated release).

                                          Mel
                                        • Mel
                                          ... Most inflatable riders still use a solid main harness line on the bar*, to ride with a locked in, fixed sheeting angle, so if you re hooked into it,
                                          Message 20 of 28 , Oct 9, 2001
                                            <surfsup@...> wrote:

                                            > With the extra O ring that the snap shackle was clipped on, I did
                                            > have the two to release, but now that I will go directly to the
                                            > harness with the snapshackle, it will be the shackle, or nothing...

                                            Most inflatable riders still use a solid "main" harness line on the bar*, to
                                            ride with a locked in, fixed sheeting angle, so if you're hooked into it,
                                            you'd need a harness hook that's able to release from that line, if you want
                                            to be able to safely exit while hooked into it. Did that make sense?

                                            *which is what I thought you were referring to when you wrote about using
                                            the spreader's release to get out of the harness line.

                                            Mel
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