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Re: [ksurfschool] Using C-Quad

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  • Mark Frasier
    on 6/8/00 7:32 AM, matthias.unger@unger-partner.de at ... I m using only C Quads for kitesurfing. C Quads water launch in some circumsatnces, but very rarely
    Message 1 of 15 , Jun 8, 2000
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      on 6/8/00 7:32 AM, matthias.unger@... at
      matthias.unger@... wrote:

      > Hi,
      > is there anyone who ever use a peter lynn c-quad for kitesurfing? whats about
      > water-launching?
      > regards
      > Matthias

      I'm using only C Quads for kitesurfing. C Quads water launch in some
      circumsatnces, but very rarely in kitesurfing circumsatnces. They were
      originally developed for kitesailing with a boat. Definately never plan to
      relaunch from the water. Plan to pack up the kite & walk or swim back to
      shore. Sometimes they can be launched from the water if there is lots of
      wind and you can stand on the bottom and walk backwadrs.

      They're good for kitesurfing other than that. They're cheap, powerful &
      efficient, handle well, and they do fly well wet. They're just impossible to
      relaunch when you're out over your head. Also, they take a bit longer than
      some kites to learn all the tricks (power regualtion, handling, etc) but
      it's worth it!

      Mark Frasier
    • Farnsworth, Kenny
      They are not water relaunchable most of the time. I would avoid the c-quad until you can kite surf without crashing the kite. I suggest a Naish or Wipika 2
      Message 2 of 15 , Jun 8, 2000
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        They are not water relaunchable most of the time. I would avoid the c-quad
        until you can kite surf without crashing the kite. I suggest a Naish or
        Wipika 2 line kite for learning. They are easily relaunchable and reliable.

        Kenny

        -----Original Message-----
        From: matthias.unger@...
        [mailto:matthias.unger@...]
        Sent: Thursday, June 08, 2000 6:33 AM
        To: ksurfschool@egroups.com
        Subject: [ksurfschool] Using C-Quad


        Hi,
        is there anyone who ever use a peter lynn c-quad for kitesurfing? whats
        about
        water-launching?
        regards
        Matthias


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      • Mark Frasier
        ... I would agree with that, except that if you live in a lighter-wind (10-15 mph) area and can t possibly afford a naish or wipika of the right size, the C
        Message 3 of 15 , Jun 8, 2000
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          on 6/8/00 10:28 AM, Farnsworth, Kenny at kenny@... wrote:

          > They are not water relaunchable most of the time. I would avoid the c-quad
          > until you can kite surf without crashing the kite. I suggest a Naish or
          > Wipika 2 line kite for learning. They are easily relaunchable and reliable.
          >
          > Kenny

          I would agree with that, except that if you live in a lighter-wind (10-15
          mph) area and can't possibly afford a naish or wipika of the right size, the
          C Quad and a used surfboard will get you started,as long as you don't
          venture out too far.

          For sure the Wipika or Naish would be a much, much better option if you are
          new to kiteflying.

          The price difference between a CQ 6.3 and a Naish 9 (about the same power)
          is considerable - a CQ costs $365 from Gone with the Wind, a Naish costs
          1,025 from Naish

          Mark Frasier
        • Farnsworth, Kenny
          A Naish or Wipika is going to cost more, but it is worthwhile. There is nothing worse than swimming to the beach to relaunch a kite. The problem with kite
          Message 4 of 15 , Jun 8, 2000
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            A Naish or Wipika is going to cost more, but it is worthwhile. There is
            nothing worse than swimming to the beach to relaunch a kite.

            The problem with kite surfing is that the equipment is not very refined yet
            and the cost of equipment is still high. As the sport becomes more popular,
            prices will drop and the quality of equipment will vastly improve.

            Kenny

            -----Original Message-----
            From: Mark Frasier [mailto:brockus@...]
            Sent: Thursday, June 08, 2000 11:08 AM
            To: ksurfschool@egroups.com
            Subject: Re: [ksurfschool] Using C-Quad


            on 6/8/00 10:28 AM, Farnsworth, Kenny at kenny@... wrote:

            > They are not water relaunchable most of the time. I would avoid the
            c-quad
            > until you can kite surf without crashing the kite. I suggest a Naish or
            > Wipika 2 line kite for learning. They are easily relaunchable and
            reliable.
            >
            > Kenny

            I would agree with that, except that if you live in a lighter-wind (10-15
            mph) area and can't possibly afford a naish or wipika of the right size, the
            C Quad and a used surfboard will get you started,as long as you don't
            venture out too far.

            For sure the Wipika or Naish would be a much, much better option if you are
            new to kiteflying.

            The price difference between a CQ 6.3 and a Naish 9 (about the same power)
            is considerable - a CQ costs $365 from Gone with the Wind, a Naish costs
            1,025 from Naish

            Mark Frasier


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          • Farnsworth, Kenny
            Mark, I respect your opinion, but I don t agree with you. I would suggest buying a 7.0 Naish 2 line kite. After learning how to fly and ride on the board, I
            Message 5 of 15 , Jun 8, 2000
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              Mark,
              I respect your opinion, but I don't agree with you. I would suggest buying
              a 7.0 Naish 2 line kite. After learning how to fly and ride on the board, I
              would convert the Naish to a 4 line kite for more wind range.

              The C Quad option is okay only if you are willing to spend many hours
              learning how to fly the kite before even bothering to try and kite surf. I
              don't disagree with you that the C-Quad is a great kite. I just think it
              will frustrate a BEGINNING kite surfer. Beginners crash the kite a lot. If
              you buy a C-Quad, be prepared to swim.

              A non water relaunchable kite is fine for intermediate to advanced kite
              surfers. However, even the pro's still crash their sleds. I saw several
              swim to the beach in Maui dragging their wet kites behind them. I saw one
              pro collapse on the beach due to exhaustion after swimming 1/4 mile to the
              beach with his soggy Flexifoil and his wakeboard.

              Kenny

              -----Original Message-----
              From: Mark Frasier [mailto:brockus@...]
              Sent: Thursday, June 08, 2000 1:34 PM
              To: ksurfschool@egroups.com
              Subject: Re: [ksurfschool] Using C-Quad


              on 6/8/00 1:21 PM, Farnsworth, Kenny at kenny@... wrote:

              > A Naish or Wipika is going to cost more, but it is worthwhile. There is
              > nothing worse than swimming to the beach to relaunch a kite.
              >
              > The problem with kite surfing is that the equipment is not very refined
              yet
              > and the cost of equipment is still high. As the sport becomes more
              popular,
              > prices will drop and the quality of equipment will vastly improve.
              >
              > Kenny

              Until that happens, there's always the C Quad option ;) There is one thing
              worse than swimming a few hundred yards to shore: Not kitesurfing at all
              because you can't afford a kite. There are planty of folks out there who
              couldn't possibly buy a Wipika/Naish because they simply don't have that
              much cash or credit. On the other hand, if you go out too far it can be
              dangerous.

              I totally agree that for someone who can't fly a kite or hasn't got a
              shallow area to kitesurf a Wipika would be much, much better. But the C Quad
              is a much better, faster, more efficient, more power-controlable, better
              handling, easier to keep aloft kite that is also 1/3rd the price. If
              circumstances allow, and you're a good flier, you'd be crazy to get a single
              Wipika instead of an entire quiver of C Quads.

              Mark Frasier

              >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: Mark Frasier [mailto:brockus@...]
              > Sent: Thursday, June 08, 2000 11:08 AM
              > To: ksurfschool@egroups.com
              > Subject: Re: [ksurfschool] Using C-Quad
              >
              >
              > on 6/8/00 10:28 AM, Farnsworth, Kenny at kenny@... wrote:
              >
              >> They are not water relaunchable most of the time. I would avoid the
              > c-quad
              >> until you can kite surf without crashing the kite. I suggest a Naish or
              >> Wipika 2 line kite for learning. They are easily relaunchable and
              > reliable.
              >>
              >> Kenny
              >
              > I would agree with that, except that if you live in a lighter-wind (10-15
              > mph) area and can't possibly afford a naish or wipika of the right size,
              the
              > C Quad and a used surfboard will get you started,as long as you don't
              > venture out too far.
              >
              > For sure the Wipika or Naish would be a much, much better option if you
              are
              > new to kiteflying.
              >
              > The price difference between a CQ 6.3 and a Naish 9 (about the same power)
              > is considerable - a CQ costs $365 from Gone with the Wind, a Naish costs
              > 1,025 from Naish
              >
              > Mark Frasier
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
              > Old school buds here:
              > http://click.egroups.com/1/4057/10/_/60094/_/960480493/
              > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
              > Old school buds here:
              > http://click.egroups.com/1/4057/10/_/60094/_/960488403/
              > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
              >
              >
              >


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            • Mark Frasier
              ... Until that happens, there s always the C Quad option ;) There is one thing worse than swimming a few hundred yards to shore: Not kitesurfing at all because
              Message 6 of 15 , Jun 8, 2000
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                on 6/8/00 1:21 PM, Farnsworth, Kenny at kenny@... wrote:

                > A Naish or Wipika is going to cost more, but it is worthwhile. There is
                > nothing worse than swimming to the beach to relaunch a kite.
                >
                > The problem with kite surfing is that the equipment is not very refined yet
                > and the cost of equipment is still high. As the sport becomes more popular,
                > prices will drop and the quality of equipment will vastly improve.
                >
                > Kenny

                Until that happens, there's always the C Quad option ;) There is one thing
                worse than swimming a few hundred yards to shore: Not kitesurfing at all
                because you can't afford a kite. There are planty of folks out there who
                couldn't possibly buy a Wipika/Naish because they simply don't have that
                much cash or credit. On the other hand, if you go out too far it can be
                dangerous.

                I totally agree that for someone who can't fly a kite or hasn't got a
                shallow area to kitesurf a Wipika would be much, much better. But the C Quad
                is a much better, faster, more efficient, more power-controlable, better
                handling, easier to keep aloft kite that is also 1/3rd the price. If
                circumstances allow, and you're a good flier, you'd be crazy to get a single
                Wipika instead of an entire quiver of C Quads.

                Mark Frasier

                >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                > -----Original Message-----
                > From: Mark Frasier [mailto:brockus@...]
                > Sent: Thursday, June 08, 2000 11:08 AM
                > To: ksurfschool@egroups.com
                > Subject: Re: [ksurfschool] Using C-Quad
                >
                >
                > on 6/8/00 10:28 AM, Farnsworth, Kenny at kenny@... wrote:
                >
                >> They are not water relaunchable most of the time. I would avoid the
                > c-quad
                >> until you can kite surf without crashing the kite. I suggest a Naish or
                >> Wipika 2 line kite for learning. They are easily relaunchable and
                > reliable.
                >>
                >> Kenny
                >
                > I would agree with that, except that if you live in a lighter-wind (10-15
                > mph) area and can't possibly afford a naish or wipika of the right size, the
                > C Quad and a used surfboard will get you started,as long as you don't
                > venture out too far.
                >
                > For sure the Wipika or Naish would be a much, much better option if you are
                > new to kiteflying.
                >
                > The price difference between a CQ 6.3 and a Naish 9 (about the same power)
                > is considerable - a CQ costs $365 from Gone with the Wind, a Naish costs
                > 1,025 from Naish
                >
                > Mark Frasier
                >
                >
                > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                > Old school buds here:
                > http://click.egroups.com/1/4057/10/_/60094/_/960480493/
                > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                >
                >
                > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                > Old school buds here:
                > http://click.egroups.com/1/4057/10/_/60094/_/960488403/
                > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                >
                >
                >
              • Mark Frasier
                ... We are pretty much in total agreement on the points you make above: A beginner, not having flown any kind of controlable kite before, given a budget of
                Message 7 of 15 , Jun 8, 2000
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                  At 01:04 PM 06/08/2000 -0600, Farnsworth, Kenny wrote:
                  >Mark,
                  >I respect your opinion, but I don't agree with you. I would suggest buying
                  >a 7.0 Naish 2 line kite. After learning how to fly and ride on the board, I
                  >would convert the Naish to a 4 line kite for more wind range.
                  >
                  >The C Quad option is okay only if you are willing to spend many hours
                  >learning how to fly the kite before even bothering to try and kite surf. I
                  >don't disagree with you that the C-Quad is a great kite. I just think it
                  >will frustrate a BEGINNING kite surfer. Beginners crash the kite a lot. If
                  >you buy a C-Quad, be prepared to swim.
                  >
                  >A non water relaunchable kite is fine for intermediate to advanced kite
                  >surfers. However, even the pro's still crash their sleds. I saw several
                  >swim to the beach in Maui dragging their wet kites behind them. I saw one
                  >pro collapse on the beach due to exhaustion after swimming 1/4 mile to the
                  >beach with his soggy Flexifoil and his wakeboard.
                  >
                  >Kenny

                  We are pretty much in total agreement on the points you make above: A
                  beginner, not having flown any kind of controlable kite before, given a
                  budget of $1500 or so now and another $1000 - $2000 over the next year
                  should start with a new waterlaunchable kite (whatever kind, depending on
                  how much you want to be able to grow into the kite) and a new custom board
                  shaped to fit your water conditions, weight, wind & physical
                  ability/patience, say $800 for the kite and $700 for the board, add a few
                  $$$ on for harness, etc. The additional $1-2000 is for a larger kite and a
                  smaller kite later on. That would really be the way to go if possible. Skip
                  the C Quads if you can - you'll be at less risk of swimming in. Also a
                  beginner is not going to be able to apprecaite the benefits of a CQ anyhow,
                  and won't know what he/she's missing. For someone who's used to a
                  windsurfing budget that's not so bad. Certainly a lot less than catamaran
                  sailing or power boating.

                  If you had a strong desire to kitesurf, a good place to do it (a decent
                  area of chest-deep water, like a shallow ocean beach w/cross-on or onshore
                  wind), winds around 12-18 mph and $500, what board/kite combo would you
                  get? Or would you not kitesurf 'til you got out of school and could get a
                  better job? (that's a fair answer)

                  Oh, yeah, one more thing to the original poster and everyone else: If you
                  do get a water launchable kite, you still shouldn't go out farther than you
                  can swim in, unless you have some sort of backup plan (like a support boat,
                  or maybe some areas have lifeguards w/jetskis??). Equipment failures happen
                  with all types of kites, boards & bodies. There are two kinds of swims:
                  inconvenient, frustrating swims, and dangerously long swims.

                  BTW, if you're interested, here's my background: 4 years of stunt kite
                  flying, 3 years of traction kiting (buggying & skiing), 2 years w/ CQuads,
                  1 year kitesufing with 6 months off for winter. Total C Quad "wet crashes"
                  about a dozen or 18. Total "swim-ins" one - about 75 yds 'til I could start
                  wading. So in other words, I started kitesurfing with quite a lot of
                  experience w/the kite, and I have a good spot that allows me to walk in
                  from most crashes, and the self-discipline to stay close to shore :).

                  The most important points are: C Quads are cheap and high-performance, but
                  more demanding to fly and don't normally relaunch from water. Naish AR 3.5s
                  are easier to fly (for someone starting out, or so I'm told, I know I can't
                  fly 'em worth crap), do normally relaunch from water and perform well
                  enough to be of use, but are expensive. Right?

                  We should have asked the original poster why he/she was considering a C
                  Quad and what his/her situation is. Hope this thread is useful to someone :)

                  Mark Frasier
                • kennyfarnsworth@cs.com
                  Mark, I think that between the two of us we have covered this topic well. It does come down to money. As Hung Vu said, hopefully the price of the kites will
                  Message 8 of 15 , Jun 8, 2000
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                    Mark,

                    I think that between the two of us we have covered this topic well. It does
                    come down to money. As Hung Vu said, hopefully the price of the kites will
                    come down and make this sport more affordable. I am a mountain biker, so I
                    see a lot of comparisions between mountain biking and kite surfing. In the
                    beginning, mountain bikes were heavy, shifted like crap, and had no
                    suspension. Today, you can get a great bike for less than a grand. In ten
                    years, I think we will all be amazed by the technology and low price of kite
                    surfing equipment.

                    Kenny
                  • matthias.unger@unger-partner.de
                    Hi friends, thanks for your answers to my question. I just use the c-quad for buggy-kiting and I love the very good control of this kite insted of a 2-liner,
                    Message 9 of 15 , Jun 8, 2000
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                      Hi friends,
                      thanks for your answers to my question. I just use the c-quad for
                      buggy-kiting and I love the very good control of this kite insted of a
                      2-liner, so I want to use it for kitesurfing too.
                      Only problem is the water-relaunch, you told me. You ever tried the c-tubes,
                      special air floated tubes on the backside of the kite?
                      one time I tried a 5.5 Wipika on beach, it was very powerful, but this is the
                      problem. You cant depower the kite and I only hold it at 12 a clock, with no
                      chance to fly it like a normal kite down and fast right over the ground.
                      regards
                      Matthias
                    • Mark Frasier
                      ... the ... I have been using faom pipe insulation in the sleeves on my 8.5 & 4.2 CQ s for about a month, but I haven t dunked the kite since then so I don t
                      Message 10 of 15 , Jun 9, 2000
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                        At 06:36 AM 06/09/2000 UT, matthias.unger@... wrote:
                        >Hi friends,
                        >thanks for your answers to my question. I just use the c-quad for
                        >buggy-kiting and I love the very good control of this kite insted of a
                        >2-liner, so I want to use it for kitesurfing too.
                        >Only problem is the water-relaunch, you told me. You ever tried the c-tubes,
                        >special air floated tubes on the backside of the kite?
                        >one time I tried a 5.5 Wipika on beach, it was very powerful, but this is
                        the
                        >problem. You cant depower the kite and I only hold it at 12 a clock, with no
                        >chance to fly it like a normal kite down and fast right over the ground.
                        >regards
                        >Matthias

                        I have been using faom pipe insulation in the sleeves on my 8.5 & 4.2 CQ's
                        for about a month, but I haven't dunked the kite since then so I don't know
                        if they do any good. People have told me that the tubes keep the kite from
                        sinking but don't allow reliable relaunch.

                        I agree about power regulation on the Wipikas: the pull is too constant for
                        me. I like the variable power of a faster kite. How long have you been
                        buggying? What size CQ's do you own?

                        Mark Frasier
                      • matthias.unger@unger-partner.de
                        Hi Mark, I tried buggying first this year, but fly kites for 10 years. First I use a 2-line elliot foil with 3.6 squaremeters. Now I use a 4.2 CQ. Because of
                        Message 11 of 15 , Jun 9, 2000
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                          Hi Mark,
                          I tried buggying first this year, but fly kites for 10 years.
                          First I use a 2-line elliot foil with 3.6 squaremeters. Now I use a 4.2 CQ.
                          Because of very light winds in Berlin/Germany IØm looking for some bigger
                          one. Do you ever tried the 6.3 or 8.5 in very light wind? Is there enough
                          power for buggying or surfing?

                          Matthias

                          -------- Original Message --------
                          Subject: Re: [ksurfschool] Using C-Quad (9-JUN-2000 15:00)
                          From: brockus@...
                          To: ksurfschool@egroups.com

                          > At 06:36 AM 06/09/2000 UT, matthias.unger@... wrote:
                          > >Hi friends,
                          > >thanks for your answers to my question. I just use the c-quad for
                          > >buggy-kiting and I love the very good control of this kite insted of a
                          > >2-liner, so I want to use it for kitesurfing too.
                          > >Only problem is the water-relaunch, you told me. You ever tried the >
                          c-tubes,
                          > >special air floated tubes on the backside of the kite?
                          > >one time I tried a 5.5 Wipika on beach, it was very powerful, but this is
                          > the
                          > >problem. You cant depower the kite and I only hold it at 12 a clock, with
                          > no
                          > >chance to fly it like a normal kite down and fast right over the ground.
                          > >regards
                          > >Matthias
                          >
                          > I have been using faom pipe insulation in the sleeves on my 8.5 & 4.2 CQ's
                          > for about a month, but I haven't dunked the kite since then so I don't know
                          > if they do any good. People have told me that the tubes keep the kite from
                          > sinking but don't allow reliable relaunch.
                          >
                          > I agree about power regulation on the Wipikas: the pull is too constant for
                          > me. I like the variable power of a faster kite. How long have you been
                          > buggying? What size CQ's do you own?
                          >
                          > Mark Frasier
                          >
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                          ksurfschool@egroups.com
                        • aspartamez
                          Sorry, cant help you on the matter of water re-launching. Just a quick note to say that I have never made such good use of the bad weather, here in the old UK.
                          Message 12 of 15 , Dec 16, 2001
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                            Sorry, cant help you on the matter of water re-launching.

                            Just a quick note to say that I have never made such good use of the
                            bad weather, here in the old UK.

                            I don't surf yet, but have bought a c quad 2.2m for a bit of fun.
                            What can I say? All I've had before is a Flexi Stacker 6, the first
                            time I launched the quad was on a beach in v high winds and shortly
                            after my sholders had left their sockets, I travelled a considerable
                            distance on my knees/stomach!!

                            Well I bloody love it, just one problem though. What's the best way
                            to launch (on your own) from land? Is staking the handles the
                            answer??
                            --- In ksurfschool@y..., matthias.unger@u... wrote:

                            > Hi,
                            > is there anyone who ever use a peter lynn c-quad for kitesurfing?
                            whats about
                            > water-launching?
                            > regards
                            > Matthias
                          • pksebago
                            ... the ... first ... considerable ... Use C quads for snowkiting. Easiest way to get started is to lay the kite flat on the back 1/2 to 3/4 of the way toward
                            Message 13 of 15 , Dec 18, 2001
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                              --- In ksurfschool@y..., "aspartamez" <aspartamez@y...> wrote:
                              > Sorry, cant help you on the matter of water re-launching.
                              >
                              > Just a quick note to say that I have never made such good use of
                              the
                              > bad weather, here in the old UK.
                              >
                              > I don't surf yet, but have bought a c quad 2.2m for a bit of fun.
                              > What can I say? All I've had before is a Flexi Stacker 6, the
                              first
                              > time I launched the quad was on a beach in v high winds and shortly
                              > after my sholders had left their sockets, I travelled a
                              considerable
                              > distance on my knees/stomach!!
                              >
                              > Well I bloody love it, just one problem though. What's the best way
                              > to launch (on your own) from land? Is staking the handles the
                              > answer??

                              Use C quads for snowkiting. Easiest way to get started is to lay the
                              kite flat on the back 1/2 to 3/4 of the way toward the edge of the
                              window. Left side closest to you near the left edge of the window
                              (reverse near the right). Weight down the left edge, walk back to
                              your handles and give a tug on the right side. Kite should fill with
                              air and you can fly to the left up and around the power zone. If you
                              want to try dead downwind, you can face the leading edge toward you
                              and weight it. Apply pressure on the brake lines to stand the kite
                              on it's nose. Then a smooth tug on the brakes will reverse launch
                              the kite. Turn to one side and fly away. Be prepared for a good tug
                              as it zips up throught he zone. Good Luck
                              > --- In ksurfschool@y..., matthias.unger@u... wrote:
                              >
                              > > Hi,
                              > > is there anyone who ever use a peter lynn c-quad for kitesurfing?
                              > whats about
                              > > water-launching?
                              > > regards
                              > > Matthias
                            • jezweston
                              ... Another easy option is to hook the bar onto something substantial and plonk the kite dead downwind, standing up with its leading edge down. A C-Quad will
                              Message 14 of 15 , Dec 22, 2001
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                                --- In ksurfschool@y..., "pksebago" <Patkeeley@a...> wrote:
                                > --- In ksurfschool@y..., "aspartamez" <aspartamez@y...> wrote:
                                > > I don't surf yet, but have bought a c quad 2.2m for a bit of fun.
                                > > Well I bloody love it, just one problem though. What's the best way
                                > > to launch (on your own) from land? Is staking the handles the
                                > > answer??

                                Another easy option is to hook the bar onto something substantial and plonk the kite dead downwind, standing up with its leading edge down. A C-Quad will sit there permanently like this, even in very gusty winds. Obviously, it helps if you've something solid to attach it to, our local beach (Paraparaumu, Wellington, NZ) has huge chunks of driftwood lying over it, assorted steel piling and various tractors for holding things. I've tried this with a foot long sand stake and a 3.2 C-Quad and its risky in light winds, silly in anything more.

                                Launching is fun. Just add brake line tension until the kite lifts off backwards, turn through 90 degrees and fly out slowly to the edge of the wind, keeping lots of brake line tension on. Don't turn through 180 degrees and fly straight up through the power zone at high speed, unless you want to have a laugh.

                                Off to the beach, in the sun. Damn, I love the southern hemisphere...

                                Jez
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