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Re: [ksurfschool] Re: Foils and gusty wind NOT A myth!

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  • pault-colston
    you are all talking about 9.3 and 12.5 concept air i have a 6.3 new wave which a fantasic kite. now need a light wind kite but hear anything bigger is not to
    Message 1 of 21 , Jul 5, 2001
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      you are all talking about 9.3 and 12.5 concept air i have a 6.3 new wave
      which a fantasic kite. now need a light wind kite but hear anything bigger
      is not to the same standard

      ----------
      >From: Hung Vu <hungvu@...>
      >To: ksurfschool@yahoogroups.com
      >Subject: Re: [ksurfschool] Re: Foils and gusty wind NOT A myth!
      >Date: Fri, Jul 6, 2001, 3:24 am
      >

      > Kenny,
      >
      >> Let's go back to what I was talking about. I agree that foils make
      >> sense in moderate/strong winds, but I am not so sure about light wind
      >> conditions.
      >
      > Light wind is where foils excel as in light wind you want a very high
      > performance kite and a very light kite. So far only foils and
      > C-Quad/Bean can deliver that type of characteristics.
      >
      > I have been using the XXXL for more than 2 years (for both kitesurfing
      > and kiteskiing) and the Concept Air 12.5 and never have any problem with
      > them. Actually, the only "wish" I have is that they should be higher
      > performance and lighter (especially for the Concept air 12.5 due to its
      > use in even lighter wind)
      >
      >> In fact, I am considering buying a couple small foils
      >> that I can use for kite surfing and kite skiing. Hung, do you
      >> recommend the JoJo? If so, why?
      >
      > The only two medium/strong wind foils I ever flown are the New Wave 4.9
      > and the Jojo Rage 4.0 . So far they both work well. The Jojo Rage is a
      > higher performance one. Concept Air used to make the EX's Wave which is
      > of the same performance caliber as the Jojo Rage.
      >
      > The reason I think medium/strong wind foil is of appeal for me is my
      > desire of jumping higher and the ability of using the same kite for both
      > kitesurfing and kiteskiing.
      >
      >> It is not such a big deal when your small kite folds. However, when
      >> it happens on a 3-line 9.3 New Wave and the kite finally decides to
      >> respond and open up 5 feet above the water with the lines twisted a
      >> couple times - WATCH OUT!!! You are going to get seriously dragged.
      >
      > If you use handle, just play with the brake lines to stall the kite. If
      > you use bar, pull on the center line to keep the kite under control.
      > It's easier to keep the kite under control and it fly whenever you are
      > ready. If worse come to worse, just drop the bar, you can relaunch the
      > kite later on with more control.
      >
      >> My 9.3 New Wave did take on water during lulls of more than a few
      >> minutes and would not relaunch.
      >
      > It's true that if you have the lulls less than 5 knots for a few
      > minutes, most foils would absorb so much water and won't relaunch. If
      > you go out in such light wind and want the ability to relaunch more
      > reliable, foils with inflatable cells such as the Mosquito and the Jojo
      > Wet is better.
      >
      > I always use opened cell foils for light wind due to the closed cell
      > effect which make closed-cell foil not as good as opened cell foil in
      > light and gusty wind.
      >
      > Hung.
      >
      >
      >
      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
      >
      >
    • Mel
      ... I know it doesn t really come under the foil classification we re discussing, but I had an ARC on the water for quite a while (a few minutes) & it
      Message 2 of 21 , Jul 6, 2001
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        Hung Vu <hungvu@...> wrote:

        > It's true that if you have the lulls less than 5 knots for a few
        > minutes, most foils would absorb so much water and won't relaunch. If
        > you go out in such light wind and want the ability to relaunch more
        > reliable, foils with inflatable cells such as the Mosquito and the Jojo
        > Wet is better.

        I know it doesn't really come under the "foil" classification we're
        discussing, but I had an ARC on the water for quite a while (a few minutes)
        & it relaunched easily in a 5 knot puff.

        Speaking of ARCs, stacking them for light wind performance seems to be
        getting increasingly popular. I had to have it explained to me like this
        before I finally understood the maneuverability issue: You're steering the
        little kite on the bottom. IT pulls the bigger, upper kite with it, from
        RIGHT THERE (faster response, due to 7m lines). Overall what happens is it
        steers quicker than the big kite by itself !!

        Mel
      • Hung Vu
        ... I am not sure understand why an ARC, being heavier, would relaunch and a high performance foil would not in the same condition... Hung.
        Message 3 of 21 , Jul 6, 2001
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          Mel wrote:
          > > It's true that if you have the lulls less than 5 knots for a few
          > > minutes, most foils would absorb so much water and won't relaunch. If
          > > you go out in such light wind and want the ability to relaunch more
          > > reliable, foils with inflatable cells such as the Mosquito and the Jojo
          > > Wet is better.
          >
          > I know it doesn't really come under the "foil" classification we're
          > discussing, but I had an ARC on the water for quite a while (a few minutes)
          > & it relaunched easily in a 5 knot puff.

          I am not sure understand why an ARC, being heavier, would relaunch and a
          high performance foil would not in the same condition...

          Hung.
        • Doug Adams (E-mail)
          IMHO arcs launch so well because the angle of attack can be varied. Just don t turn them inside out treating them like an inflatable while lying on the water!
          Message 4 of 21 , Jul 6, 2001
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            IMHO arcs launch so well because the angle of attack can be varied. Just
            don't turn them inside out treating them like an inflatable while lying on
            the water! A foil launching leading edge up downwind has tons of drag and
            very little lift because the bridal sets the AOA at nearly 90 degrees
            relative the wind. My experience is foils launch much better backward,
            flying on their brakes, from downwind.

            Doug

            -----Original Message-----
            From: Mel [mailto:kitebord@...]
            Sent: Friday, July 06, 2001 9:42 PM
            To: ksurfschool@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [ksurfschool] Re: Foils and gusty wind NOT A myth!


            Hung Vu <hungvu@...> wrote:

            > I am not sure understand why an ARC, being heavier, would relaunch and a
            > high performance foil would not in the same condition...

            Could be any of a number of factors:
            No bridle (I'm sure when wet it adds more weight than you'd think, just like
            it adds more drag than you'd think).
            Tip battens (added weight, but maybe they help somehow).
            General shape (maybe the arched shape helps somehow).
            Flexibility of shape without bridles (don't know how that would help, but it
            might).
            The fact that mine was practically brand new at the time might be a factor.

            On the other hand, since I only tried it once, maybe I was just lucky. It
            seems the consensus is you never get good at relaunching an ARC because it's
            so rare to crash them. Anybody else have extremely good success relaunching
            ARCs in light winds?

            Mel




            Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          • Mel
            ... Could be any of a number of factors: No bridle (I m sure when wet it adds more weight than you d think, just like it adds more drag than you d think). Tip
            Message 5 of 21 , Jul 6, 2001
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              Hung Vu <hungvu@...> wrote:

              > I am not sure understand why an ARC, being heavier, would relaunch and a
              > high performance foil would not in the same condition...

              Could be any of a number of factors:
              No bridle (I'm sure when wet it adds more weight than you'd think, just like
              it adds more drag than you'd think).
              Tip battens (added weight, but maybe they help somehow).
              General shape (maybe the arched shape helps somehow).
              Flexibility of shape without bridles (don't know how that would help, but it
              might).
              The fact that mine was practically brand new at the time might be a factor.

              On the other hand, since I only tried it once, maybe I was just lucky. It
              seems the consensus is you never get good at relaunching an ARC because it's
              so rare to crash them. Anybody else have extremely good success relaunching
              ARCs in light winds?

              Mel
            • Mel
              ... It s supposed to be possible to do that with an ARC too, but I had to intentionally crash it LE down to try it, & by the time I d adjusted my center strap
              Message 6 of 21 , Jul 6, 2001
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                Doug Adams (E-mail) <rcpilot@...> wrote:

                >My experience is foils launch much better backward,
                > flying on their brakes, from downwind.

                It's supposed to be possible to do that with an ARC too, but I had to
                intentionally crash it LE down to try it, & by the time I'd adjusted my
                center strap all the way out the darn thing was airborne again! In other
                words, if you really want to try it, make sure you adjust your strap all the
                way out BEFORE you "land" it nose down, or it may relaunch on its own before
                you get a chance to try the reverse launch.

                Mel
              • Hung Vu
                Actually, the issue Kenny raised is that after staying in the water during a lull for a while (let s say 10 minutes of less than 5 knots), most closed-cells
                Message 7 of 21 , Jul 7, 2001
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                  Actually, the issue Kenny raised is that after staying in the water
                  during a lull for a while (let's say 10 minutes of less than 5 knots),
                  most closed-cells foil or Arc would absorb so much water that would
                  render them un-relauncheable when the wind pick up. This is more to do
                  with the ability of the kite keeping the water out. I notice that
                  modern closed cell foils float better and are constructed better allow
                  them to stay on the water longer.

                  I had only one experience with the Arc kiteskiing in the winter in very
                  light wind. We could relaunch foil easily (both LE up and LE down) and
                  could not relaunch the Arc in that light wind (LE down).

                  P.S., I am very intrigued about the novelty of the Arc and always try to
                  think of a reason to buy one. I select inflatable for its reliable
                  water relaunch and decent performance; I select a foil for higher
                  performance/higher jump and light wind. Can someone shred a light why
                  would I buy/try an Arc (stacking for light wind is not it as it sounds
                  pretty complex and difficult)

                  Hung.

                  Mel wrote:
                  >
                  > Hung Vu <hungvu@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > > I am not sure understand why an ARC, being heavier, would relaunch and a
                  > > high performance foil would not in the same condition...
                  >
                  > Could be any of a number of factors:
                  > No bridle (I'm sure when wet it adds more weight than you'd think, just like
                  > it adds more drag than you'd think).
                  > Tip battens (added weight, but maybe they help somehow).
                  > General shape (maybe the arched shape helps somehow).
                  > Flexibility of shape without bridles (don't know how that would help, but it
                  > might).
                  > The fact that mine was practically brand new at the time might be a factor.
                  >
                  > On the other hand, since I only tried it once, maybe I was just lucky. It
                  > seems the consensus is you never get good at relaunching an ARC because it's
                  > so rare to crash them. Anybody else have extremely good success relaunching
                  > ARCs in light winds?
                  >
                  > Mel
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
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