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RE: [ksurfschool] Foils and gusty wind myth!

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  • kitesrfer@aol.com
    Hung, That is interesting that you have had a similar experience with the 5.5 m. I have had it out close to 40 mph and it was still very well behaved and on
    Message 1 of 21 , Jul 3 8:14 PM
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      Hung,

      That is interesting that you have had a similar experience with the 5.5 m. I
      have had it out close to 40 mph and it was still very well behaved and on 30
      m lines. My old 7.5 m, above the "sweet" wind range would become almost
      uncontrollable with violent jellyfishing along with folding back wing tips.
      It worked very well below that "terminal resonance" windspeed. It is
      interesting that the 5.5 was much more manageable than an old two lined
      Wipika classic that I once used in 40 to 45 mph winds. Much above 40 mph I
      did the "hungery porpose manuver". High winds are fun but I am glad that
      they are rare. I hope to last longer!

      Rick


      -----Original Message-----
      From: Hung Vu [mailto:hungvu@...]
      Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2001 8:18 PM
      To: ksurfschool@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [ksurfschool] Foils and gusty wind myth!


      Rick Iossi wrote:
      > I have a AR5 5.5 m as well but have only had enough wind to use it twice.
      > Both times the wind was in the high 30 mph range. I have heard that the 5.5
      > m jellyfishes badly in high wind. I have yet to experience that. What has
      > your experience been? That must have been some session. Did your kite
      > stall much?

      I don't think the 5.5 jellyfishes worse than the 11.5. Besides, I find
      the jellyfish "problem" is fun once you are prepared for the "rush".

      Yes, it was some session and I wished I had the nerve to go out with the
      4 lined Wipika Classis 3.5 with 15m line in 35+ knots (I call it quit
      after failing to launch the Wipika Classic 3.5 with 30m line)

      Hung.
    • fernmanus@yahoo.com
      Hung, Let s go back to what I was talking about. I agree that foils make sense in moderate/strong winds, but I am not so sure about light wind conditions. In
      Message 2 of 21 , Jul 5 3:35 PM
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        Hung,

        Let's go back to what I was talking about. I agree that foils make
        sense in moderate/strong winds, but I am not so sure about light wind
        conditions. In fact, I am considering buying a couple small foils
        that I can use for kite surfing and kite skiing. Hung, do you
        recommend the JoJo? If so, why?

        It is not such a big deal when your small kite folds. However, when
        it happens on a 3-line 9.3 New Wave and the kite finally decides to
        respond and open up 5 feet above the water with the lines twisted a
        couple times - WATCH OUT!!! You are going to get seriously dragged.

        My 9.3 New Wave did take on water during lulls of more than a few
        minutes and would not relaunch.

        I get into my wakeboard bindings by flying the kite out away from
        shore and then hooking into the trim loop. I usually fly the kite so
        that it is pulling me gradually away from shore and then hurry to get
        the bindings on. I wouldn't call it easy, but with a little bit of
        practise it is safe and no big deal.

        Kenny


        --- In ksurfschool@y..., Hung Vu <hungvu@n...> wrote:
        > Kenny,
        >
        > > I see two big problems with foils in light gusty inland
        conditions:
        > > 1. Folding: I had terrible problems with the kite folding in a
        brief
        > > lull and then reopening right before the kite hit the water. This
        > > mades for some brutal body drags (resulting in several broken
        board
        > > leashes and a broken kite line).
        >
        > All kites would collapse in very gusty wind (both light or strong
        > wind). When a foil collapse, it folds itself and you can pull on
        the
        > lines (walk or swim backward) to get it back to shape. When an
        > inflatable collapse it simply falls and there is NOTHING you can do
        > about it. In its first few weeks of use, I got my AR5 5.5 fall
        down in
        > a pile of rocks and damage the front leading edge. I still have
        numerous
        > tapes on the front leading edge of my AR5 5.5 to remind me of that
        > event.
        >
        > Since then I have learned how to deal with the situation. Kites
        will
        > collapse in gusty wind if you fly them using only the front lines
        (both
        > for foils and inflatables). By keeping some tension on the back
        lines,
        > you can prevent them from collapsing in gusty wind.
        >
        > > 2. Long lulls - foils take on water after a few minutes on the
        > > water. Inflatables rule in this dept.
        >
        > That's what I used to believe but changed my belief after using the
        New
        > Wave and also the JOJO Rage yesterday. A modern foil floats longer
        and
        > relaunch easier in very little wind that unless the long lulls is
        less
        > than 5 knots it should not be a problem relaunching them (I had
        numerous
        > crashes with the New Wave and the JOJO Rage and so far be able to
        > relaunch them with minimum effort)
        >
        > Furthermore, I may start using wakeboard and binding in the future
        after
        > seeing Luke Stanek from JOJO kite doing
        > the following:
        > 1- Launch the kite
        > 2- Walk into shallow water (or drag into deep water)
        > 3- Active the safety leash to land the kite straight down wind
        > 4- Get into the binding with "both hands"
        > 5- Grab the bar, launch the kite easily and start sailing
        >
        > Of all the methods of getting into the binding, this is the only
        one I
        > think is "civilized", safe enough and may "lure" me into using it.
        >
        > P.S., I made some of the highest jumps around here yesterday with
        the
        > JOJO Rage 4.0 m2 (very gusty wind, no depower rig setup). A high
        > performance foil for medium and high wind will definitely be part
        of my
        > kite quiver in the future.
        >
        > Hung.
      • Hung Vu
        Kenny, ... Light wind is where foils excel as in light wind you want a very high performance kite and a very light kite. So far only foils and C-Quad/Bean can
        Message 3 of 21 , Jul 5 7:24 PM
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          Kenny,

          > Let's go back to what I was talking about. I agree that foils make
          > sense in moderate/strong winds, but I am not so sure about light wind
          > conditions.

          Light wind is where foils excel as in light wind you want a very high
          performance kite and a very light kite. So far only foils and
          C-Quad/Bean can deliver that type of characteristics.

          I have been using the XXXL for more than 2 years (for both kitesurfing
          and kiteskiing) and the Concept Air 12.5 and never have any problem with
          them. Actually, the only "wish" I have is that they should be higher
          performance and lighter (especially for the Concept air 12.5 due to its
          use in even lighter wind)

          > In fact, I am considering buying a couple small foils
          > that I can use for kite surfing and kite skiing. Hung, do you
          > recommend the JoJo? If so, why?

          The only two medium/strong wind foils I ever flown are the New Wave 4.9
          and the Jojo Rage 4.0 . So far they both work well. The Jojo Rage is a
          higher performance one. Concept Air used to make the EX's Wave which is
          of the same performance caliber as the Jojo Rage.

          The reason I think medium/strong wind foil is of appeal for me is my
          desire of jumping higher and the ability of using the same kite for both
          kitesurfing and kiteskiing.

          > It is not such a big deal when your small kite folds. However, when
          > it happens on a 3-line 9.3 New Wave and the kite finally decides to
          > respond and open up 5 feet above the water with the lines twisted a
          > couple times - WATCH OUT!!! You are going to get seriously dragged.

          If you use handle, just play with the brake lines to stall the kite. If
          you use bar, pull on the center line to keep the kite under control.
          It's easier to keep the kite under control and it fly whenever you are
          ready. If worse come to worse, just drop the bar, you can relaunch the
          kite later on with more control.

          > My 9.3 New Wave did take on water during lulls of more than a few
          > minutes and would not relaunch.

          It's true that if you have the lulls less than 5 knots for a few
          minutes, most foils would absorb so much water and won't relaunch. If
          you go out in such light wind and want the ability to relaunch more
          reliable, foils with inflatable cells such as the Mosquito and the Jojo
          Wet is better.

          I always use opened cell foils for light wind due to the closed cell
          effect which make closed-cell foil not as good as opened cell foil in
          light and gusty wind.

          Hung.
        • pault-colston
          you are all talking about 9.3 and 12.5 concept air i have a 6.3 new wave which a fantasic kite. now need a light wind kite but hear anything bigger is not to
          Message 4 of 21 , Jul 5 11:38 PM
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            you are all talking about 9.3 and 12.5 concept air i have a 6.3 new wave
            which a fantasic kite. now need a light wind kite but hear anything bigger
            is not to the same standard

            ----------
            >From: Hung Vu <hungvu@...>
            >To: ksurfschool@yahoogroups.com
            >Subject: Re: [ksurfschool] Re: Foils and gusty wind NOT A myth!
            >Date: Fri, Jul 6, 2001, 3:24 am
            >

            > Kenny,
            >
            >> Let's go back to what I was talking about. I agree that foils make
            >> sense in moderate/strong winds, but I am not so sure about light wind
            >> conditions.
            >
            > Light wind is where foils excel as in light wind you want a very high
            > performance kite and a very light kite. So far only foils and
            > C-Quad/Bean can deliver that type of characteristics.
            >
            > I have been using the XXXL for more than 2 years (for both kitesurfing
            > and kiteskiing) and the Concept Air 12.5 and never have any problem with
            > them. Actually, the only "wish" I have is that they should be higher
            > performance and lighter (especially for the Concept air 12.5 due to its
            > use in even lighter wind)
            >
            >> In fact, I am considering buying a couple small foils
            >> that I can use for kite surfing and kite skiing. Hung, do you
            >> recommend the JoJo? If so, why?
            >
            > The only two medium/strong wind foils I ever flown are the New Wave 4.9
            > and the Jojo Rage 4.0 . So far they both work well. The Jojo Rage is a
            > higher performance one. Concept Air used to make the EX's Wave which is
            > of the same performance caliber as the Jojo Rage.
            >
            > The reason I think medium/strong wind foil is of appeal for me is my
            > desire of jumping higher and the ability of using the same kite for both
            > kitesurfing and kiteskiing.
            >
            >> It is not such a big deal when your small kite folds. However, when
            >> it happens on a 3-line 9.3 New Wave and the kite finally decides to
            >> respond and open up 5 feet above the water with the lines twisted a
            >> couple times - WATCH OUT!!! You are going to get seriously dragged.
            >
            > If you use handle, just play with the brake lines to stall the kite. If
            > you use bar, pull on the center line to keep the kite under control.
            > It's easier to keep the kite under control and it fly whenever you are
            > ready. If worse come to worse, just drop the bar, you can relaunch the
            > kite later on with more control.
            >
            >> My 9.3 New Wave did take on water during lulls of more than a few
            >> minutes and would not relaunch.
            >
            > It's true that if you have the lulls less than 5 knots for a few
            > minutes, most foils would absorb so much water and won't relaunch. If
            > you go out in such light wind and want the ability to relaunch more
            > reliable, foils with inflatable cells such as the Mosquito and the Jojo
            > Wet is better.
            >
            > I always use opened cell foils for light wind due to the closed cell
            > effect which make closed-cell foil not as good as opened cell foil in
            > light and gusty wind.
            >
            > Hung.
            >
            >
            >
            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            >
            >
          • Mel
            ... I know it doesn t really come under the foil classification we re discussing, but I had an ARC on the water for quite a while (a few minutes) & it
            Message 5 of 21 , Jul 6 2:16 PM
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              Hung Vu <hungvu@...> wrote:

              > It's true that if you have the lulls less than 5 knots for a few
              > minutes, most foils would absorb so much water and won't relaunch. If
              > you go out in such light wind and want the ability to relaunch more
              > reliable, foils with inflatable cells such as the Mosquito and the Jojo
              > Wet is better.

              I know it doesn't really come under the "foil" classification we're
              discussing, but I had an ARC on the water for quite a while (a few minutes)
              & it relaunched easily in a 5 knot puff.

              Speaking of ARCs, stacking them for light wind performance seems to be
              getting increasingly popular. I had to have it explained to me like this
              before I finally understood the maneuverability issue: You're steering the
              little kite on the bottom. IT pulls the bigger, upper kite with it, from
              RIGHT THERE (faster response, due to 7m lines). Overall what happens is it
              steers quicker than the big kite by itself !!

              Mel
            • Hung Vu
              ... I am not sure understand why an ARC, being heavier, would relaunch and a high performance foil would not in the same condition... Hung.
              Message 6 of 21 , Jul 6 5:59 PM
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                Mel wrote:
                > > It's true that if you have the lulls less than 5 knots for a few
                > > minutes, most foils would absorb so much water and won't relaunch. If
                > > you go out in such light wind and want the ability to relaunch more
                > > reliable, foils with inflatable cells such as the Mosquito and the Jojo
                > > Wet is better.
                >
                > I know it doesn't really come under the "foil" classification we're
                > discussing, but I had an ARC on the water for quite a while (a few minutes)
                > & it relaunched easily in a 5 knot puff.

                I am not sure understand why an ARC, being heavier, would relaunch and a
                high performance foil would not in the same condition...

                Hung.
              • Doug Adams (E-mail)
                IMHO arcs launch so well because the angle of attack can be varied. Just don t turn them inside out treating them like an inflatable while lying on the water!
                Message 7 of 21 , Jul 6 9:40 PM
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                  IMHO arcs launch so well because the angle of attack can be varied. Just
                  don't turn them inside out treating them like an inflatable while lying on
                  the water! A foil launching leading edge up downwind has tons of drag and
                  very little lift because the bridal sets the AOA at nearly 90 degrees
                  relative the wind. My experience is foils launch much better backward,
                  flying on their brakes, from downwind.

                  Doug

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Mel [mailto:kitebord@...]
                  Sent: Friday, July 06, 2001 9:42 PM
                  To: ksurfschool@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [ksurfschool] Re: Foils and gusty wind NOT A myth!


                  Hung Vu <hungvu@...> wrote:

                  > I am not sure understand why an ARC, being heavier, would relaunch and a
                  > high performance foil would not in the same condition...

                  Could be any of a number of factors:
                  No bridle (I'm sure when wet it adds more weight than you'd think, just like
                  it adds more drag than you'd think).
                  Tip battens (added weight, but maybe they help somehow).
                  General shape (maybe the arched shape helps somehow).
                  Flexibility of shape without bridles (don't know how that would help, but it
                  might).
                  The fact that mine was practically brand new at the time might be a factor.

                  On the other hand, since I only tried it once, maybe I was just lucky. It
                  seems the consensus is you never get good at relaunching an ARC because it's
                  so rare to crash them. Anybody else have extremely good success relaunching
                  ARCs in light winds?

                  Mel




                  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                • Mel
                  ... Could be any of a number of factors: No bridle (I m sure when wet it adds more weight than you d think, just like it adds more drag than you d think). Tip
                  Message 8 of 21 , Jul 6 9:41 PM
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                    Hung Vu <hungvu@...> wrote:

                    > I am not sure understand why an ARC, being heavier, would relaunch and a
                    > high performance foil would not in the same condition...

                    Could be any of a number of factors:
                    No bridle (I'm sure when wet it adds more weight than you'd think, just like
                    it adds more drag than you'd think).
                    Tip battens (added weight, but maybe they help somehow).
                    General shape (maybe the arched shape helps somehow).
                    Flexibility of shape without bridles (don't know how that would help, but it
                    might).
                    The fact that mine was practically brand new at the time might be a factor.

                    On the other hand, since I only tried it once, maybe I was just lucky. It
                    seems the consensus is you never get good at relaunching an ARC because it's
                    so rare to crash them. Anybody else have extremely good success relaunching
                    ARCs in light winds?

                    Mel
                  • Mel
                    ... It s supposed to be possible to do that with an ARC too, but I had to intentionally crash it LE down to try it, & by the time I d adjusted my center strap
                    Message 9 of 21 , Jul 6 10:20 PM
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                      Doug Adams (E-mail) <rcpilot@...> wrote:

                      >My experience is foils launch much better backward,
                      > flying on their brakes, from downwind.

                      It's supposed to be possible to do that with an ARC too, but I had to
                      intentionally crash it LE down to try it, & by the time I'd adjusted my
                      center strap all the way out the darn thing was airborne again! In other
                      words, if you really want to try it, make sure you adjust your strap all the
                      way out BEFORE you "land" it nose down, or it may relaunch on its own before
                      you get a chance to try the reverse launch.

                      Mel
                    • Hung Vu
                      Actually, the issue Kenny raised is that after staying in the water during a lull for a while (let s say 10 minutes of less than 5 knots), most closed-cells
                      Message 10 of 21 , Jul 7 4:36 AM
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                        Actually, the issue Kenny raised is that after staying in the water
                        during a lull for a while (let's say 10 minutes of less than 5 knots),
                        most closed-cells foil or Arc would absorb so much water that would
                        render them un-relauncheable when the wind pick up. This is more to do
                        with the ability of the kite keeping the water out. I notice that
                        modern closed cell foils float better and are constructed better allow
                        them to stay on the water longer.

                        I had only one experience with the Arc kiteskiing in the winter in very
                        light wind. We could relaunch foil easily (both LE up and LE down) and
                        could not relaunch the Arc in that light wind (LE down).

                        P.S., I am very intrigued about the novelty of the Arc and always try to
                        think of a reason to buy one. I select inflatable for its reliable
                        water relaunch and decent performance; I select a foil for higher
                        performance/higher jump and light wind. Can someone shred a light why
                        would I buy/try an Arc (stacking for light wind is not it as it sounds
                        pretty complex and difficult)

                        Hung.

                        Mel wrote:
                        >
                        > Hung Vu <hungvu@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > > I am not sure understand why an ARC, being heavier, would relaunch and a
                        > > high performance foil would not in the same condition...
                        >
                        > Could be any of a number of factors:
                        > No bridle (I'm sure when wet it adds more weight than you'd think, just like
                        > it adds more drag than you'd think).
                        > Tip battens (added weight, but maybe they help somehow).
                        > General shape (maybe the arched shape helps somehow).
                        > Flexibility of shape without bridles (don't know how that would help, but it
                        > might).
                        > The fact that mine was practically brand new at the time might be a factor.
                        >
                        > On the other hand, since I only tried it once, maybe I was just lucky. It
                        > seems the consensus is you never get good at relaunching an ARC because it's
                        > so rare to crash them. Anybody else have extremely good success relaunching
                        > ARCs in light winds?
                        >
                        > Mel
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
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