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Re: [ksurfschool] Re: Foils and gusty wind NOT A myth!

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  • Dave Raue
    While I don t agree about the taking on water part (at least for Mosquitos), I ve suffered from the folding/luffing problem in light winds too. I ve found
    Message 1 of 21 , Jul 2, 2001
      While I don't agree about the taking on water part (at least for Mosquitos),
      I've suffered from the folding/luffing problem in light winds too. I've
      found that if i'm using a board with straps it's not so bad cause you can
      keep the kite moving around and just get in and go. But wakeboard bindings
      are another matter. When 75% of your attention is on getting in bindings
      and the other 75% (!!) on dealing with luffs it can get ugly. A 3 or 4-line
      set up is preffered IMHO cause you can often recover by a quick snap on the
      brakes. On the other hand, once you get going it's easier to deal with.
      Many's the time that I've recovered from a gust-induced luff when fully
      locked in but sharply turning upwind to snap the lines tight. The first
      time I couldn't believe that it really worked, but it does!

      -D
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: <fernmanus@...>
      To: <ksurfschool@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Monday, July 02, 2001 5:30 PM
      Subject: [ksurfschool] Re: Foils and gusty wind NOT A myth!


      > Hung,
      >
      > My experience with foils in gusty light winds was not positive. I
      > used a 9.3 CA New Wave last year. I sold it and I now use a Wipika
      > 16.4 AB in similar conditions.
      >
      > I see two big problems with foils in light gusty inland conditions:
      > 1. Folding: I had terrible problems with the kite folding in a brief
      > lull and then reopening right before the kite hit the water. This
      > mades for some brutal body drags (resulting in several broken board
      > leashes and a broken kite line).
      > 2. Long lulls - foils take on water after a few minutes on the
      > water. Inflatables rule in this dept.
      >
      > Of course, I am talking about larger kites. The problems that I
      > experienced do not occur regularly when using smaller kites.
      >
      > Kenny
      >
      > --- In ksurfschool@y..., Hung Vu <hungvu@n...> wrote:
      > >
      > > Being a landlocked sailor, I have windsurf/kitesurf at most popular
      > > places on earth (Canada, US, Europe, Caribbean, Mexico, Venezuela,
      > > Hawaii, Australia, etc.) I can say that Maui is on my prefer list of
      > > non-gusty wind location (strong but not gusty - I am talking about
      > the
      > > North shore).
      > >
      > > Of all the places, home is where I find the most gusty condition
      > when
      > > the wind blows over the tree and building before it gets to the lake
      > > (our side-slightly-off-shore condition).
      > >
      > > Wind range is the range of the wind speed from the beginning to the
      > end
      > > of the session. Gust is the range of the wind in any 30 seconds
      > > period. In a day at home (yesterday in fact!), we may have a wind
      > range
      > > of 5 - 45 knots and a gust of 50% - 100% increase in wind speed in
      > any
      > > 30 seconds period. What this means is a kite with larger wind range
      > > allow us to have a longer session and a kite with shorter wind
      > range a
      > > shorter session.
      > >
      > > Only the inflatable can currently handle double wind speed wind
      > range or
      > > 100% increase in wind speed (e.g., 10 - 20 knots or 12 to 25 knots
      > for
      > > me with my AR5 5.5). Normal foil probably 50% (10 - 15 knots) and
      > new
      > > generation of foils such as the New Wave 75% (10 - 17.5 knots). If
      > you
      > > add this range with proper edging skill, you can easily handle most
      > > gusts in the world with the inflatables or the newer generation of
      > > foils.
      > >
      > > The only advantage of inflatables over foils currently is wind-
      > range,
      > > all the others are myths...*
      > >
      > > These myths are very similar to the Wipika Classic myth in the early
      > > day: "You can't go up wind with a Wipika Classic ..."
      > >
      > > Of course foils have other advantages over inflatables; however,
      > they
      > > are the topics of another discussion...
      > >
      > > * I am not discussing about the intrinsic differences between foils
      > and
      > > inflatables (drift-launching, pumping, kite maintenance, etc.)
      > >
      > > Hung.
      > >
      > >
      > > Dave Raue wrote:
      > > >
      > > > FWIW, I think the issue here is how gusty is a gust. I suspect
      > we may be
      > > > comparing apples and oranges. I'm told that on Maui it can be
      > blowing, say,
      > > > 15kts and all of a sudden it goes to 30 kts for a couple minutes,
      > then back
      > > > to15 again. On Long Island a gust would be more like blowing at
      > 15kts and
      > > > 30 seconds of 18-20 kts then back to 15. Foils can easily handle
      > the latter
      > > > case. But I wouldn't want to be on a 7.5m foil in 15 kts and
      > have it go to
      > > > 30! I can't imagine any way that would be managable.
      > > >
      > > > -Dave
      > > > ----- Original Message -----
      > > > From: "Philip Mann" <phil@i...>
      > > > To: <ksurfschool@y...>
      > > > Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2001 9:00 AM
      > > > Subject: RE: [ksurfschool] Foils and gusty wind myth!
      > > >
      > > > > I totally agree!
      > > > > I have been using my F-ONEs in off shore gusty winds to take
      > advantage of
      > > > > the smooth water.
      > > > > In a strong gust the foil rushes to the edge of the window very
      > quickly
      > > > > allowing it to deposer by itself and then slows down in the
      > lulls, it does
      > > > > luff a bit if the difference in wind strength in gust and luff
      > is great,
      > > > but
      > > > > it very rarely folds.
      > > > >
      > > > > Philip
      > > > >
      > > > > Inland Sea Windsurf Co and Kitesite.net
      > > > > 1-888-465-2632
      > > > > 1-802-862-3847
      > > > > www.inlandsea.com
      > > > > www.kitesite.net
      > > > >
      > > > > -----Original Message-----
      > > > > From: Hung Vu [mailto:hungvu@n...]
      > > > > Sent: Saturday, June 30, 2001 7:37 AM
      > > > > To: cankitesurf@egroups.com; kitesurf@egroups.com;
      > > > > ksurfschool@y...
      > > > > Subject: [ksurfschool] Foils and gusty wind myth!
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > I always believed that foils are useless in gusty wind.
      > > > >
      > > > > I took my New Wave 4.9 m2 out yesterday in probably the most
      > gusty wind
      > > > > we have around here (inland lake, roughly 2 x 6 km). I only had
      > the 11.5
      > > > > and the New Wave 4.9 with me because the wind was lighter when
      > I left
      > > > > home; otherwise, I would be afraid of the gusty wind and use
      > the AR5 5.5
      > > > > instead.
      > > > >
      > > > > The New Wave 4.9 was doing OK, just as the AR5 would in this
      > gusty
      > > > > condition.
      > > > >
      > > > > It could be the technique too as I normally don't use
      > the "chicken loop"
      > > > > and rely more on board edging and the strap to adjust the power
      > of the
      > > > > kite.
      > > > >
      > > > > Not bad for a used foil I bought last winter for roughly $250
      > USD!
      > > > >
      > > > > Hung.
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
      > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
      > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
      > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
      >
      >
    • fernmanus@yahoo.com
      Hung, My experience with foils in gusty light winds was not positive. I used a 9.3 CA New Wave last year. I sold it and I now use a Wipika 16.4 AB in similar
      Message 2 of 21 , Jul 2, 2001
        Hung,

        My experience with foils in gusty light winds was not positive. I
        used a 9.3 CA New Wave last year. I sold it and I now use a Wipika
        16.4 AB in similar conditions.

        I see two big problems with foils in light gusty inland conditions:
        1. Folding: I had terrible problems with the kite folding in a brief
        lull and then reopening right before the kite hit the water. This
        mades for some brutal body drags (resulting in several broken board
        leashes and a broken kite line).
        2. Long lulls - foils take on water after a few minutes on the
        water. Inflatables rule in this dept.

        Of course, I am talking about larger kites. The problems that I
        experienced do not occur regularly when using smaller kites.

        Kenny

        --- In ksurfschool@y..., Hung Vu <hungvu@n...> wrote:
        >
        > Being a landlocked sailor, I have windsurf/kitesurf at most popular
        > places on earth (Canada, US, Europe, Caribbean, Mexico, Venezuela,
        > Hawaii, Australia, etc.) I can say that Maui is on my prefer list of
        > non-gusty wind location (strong but not gusty - I am talking about
        the
        > North shore).
        >
        > Of all the places, home is where I find the most gusty condition
        when
        > the wind blows over the tree and building before it gets to the lake
        > (our side-slightly-off-shore condition).
        >
        > Wind range is the range of the wind speed from the beginning to the
        end
        > of the session. Gust is the range of the wind in any 30 seconds
        > period. In a day at home (yesterday in fact!), we may have a wind
        range
        > of 5 - 45 knots and a gust of 50% - 100% increase in wind speed in
        any
        > 30 seconds period. What this means is a kite with larger wind range
        > allow us to have a longer session and a kite with shorter wind
        range a
        > shorter session.
        >
        > Only the inflatable can currently handle double wind speed wind
        range or
        > 100% increase in wind speed (e.g., 10 - 20 knots or 12 to 25 knots
        for
        > me with my AR5 5.5). Normal foil probably 50% (10 - 15 knots) and
        new
        > generation of foils such as the New Wave 75% (10 - 17.5 knots). If
        you
        > add this range with proper edging skill, you can easily handle most
        > gusts in the world with the inflatables or the newer generation of
        > foils.
        >
        > The only advantage of inflatables over foils currently is wind-
        range,
        > all the others are myths...*
        >
        > These myths are very similar to the Wipika Classic myth in the early
        > day: "You can't go up wind with a Wipika Classic ..."
        >
        > Of course foils have other advantages over inflatables; however,
        they
        > are the topics of another discussion...
        >
        > * I am not discussing about the intrinsic differences between foils
        and
        > inflatables (drift-launching, pumping, kite maintenance, etc.)
        >
        > Hung.
        >
        >
        > Dave Raue wrote:
        > >
        > > FWIW, I think the issue here is how gusty is a gust. I suspect
        we may be
        > > comparing apples and oranges. I'm told that on Maui it can be
        blowing, say,
        > > 15kts and all of a sudden it goes to 30 kts for a couple minutes,
        then back
        > > to15 again. On Long Island a gust would be more like blowing at
        15kts and
        > > 30 seconds of 18-20 kts then back to 15. Foils can easily handle
        the latter
        > > case. But I wouldn't want to be on a 7.5m foil in 15 kts and
        have it go to
        > > 30! I can't imagine any way that would be managable.
        > >
        > > -Dave
        > > ----- Original Message -----
        > > From: "Philip Mann" <phil@i...>
        > > To: <ksurfschool@y...>
        > > Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2001 9:00 AM
        > > Subject: RE: [ksurfschool] Foils and gusty wind myth!
        > >
        > > > I totally agree!
        > > > I have been using my F-ONEs in off shore gusty winds to take
        advantage of
        > > > the smooth water.
        > > > In a strong gust the foil rushes to the edge of the window very
        quickly
        > > > allowing it to deposer by itself and then slows down in the
        lulls, it does
        > > > luff a bit if the difference in wind strength in gust and luff
        is great,
        > > but
        > > > it very rarely folds.
        > > >
        > > > Philip
        > > >
        > > > Inland Sea Windsurf Co and Kitesite.net
        > > > 1-888-465-2632
        > > > 1-802-862-3847
        > > > www.inlandsea.com
        > > > www.kitesite.net
        > > >
        > > > -----Original Message-----
        > > > From: Hung Vu [mailto:hungvu@n...]
        > > > Sent: Saturday, June 30, 2001 7:37 AM
        > > > To: cankitesurf@egroups.com; kitesurf@egroups.com;
        > > > ksurfschool@y...
        > > > Subject: [ksurfschool] Foils and gusty wind myth!
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > I always believed that foils are useless in gusty wind.
        > > >
        > > > I took my New Wave 4.9 m2 out yesterday in probably the most
        gusty wind
        > > > we have around here (inland lake, roughly 2 x 6 km). I only had
        the 11.5
        > > > and the New Wave 4.9 with me because the wind was lighter when
        I left
        > > > home; otherwise, I would be afraid of the gusty wind and use
        the AR5 5.5
        > > > instead.
        > > >
        > > > The New Wave 4.9 was doing OK, just as the AR5 would in this
        gusty
        > > > condition.
        > > >
        > > > It could be the technique too as I normally don't use
        the "chicken loop"
        > > > and rely more on board edging and the strap to adjust the power
        of the
        > > > kite.
        > > >
        > > > Not bad for a used foil I bought last winter for roughly $250
        USD!
        > > >
        > > > Hung.
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
        http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
        http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        > > >
        > > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
        http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
      • Hung Vu
        Kenny, ... All kites would collapse in very gusty wind (both light or strong wind). When a foil collapse, it folds itself and you can pull on the lines (walk
        Message 3 of 21 , Jul 3, 2001
          Kenny,

          > I see two big problems with foils in light gusty inland conditions:
          > 1. Folding: I had terrible problems with the kite folding in a brief
          > lull and then reopening right before the kite hit the water. This
          > mades for some brutal body drags (resulting in several broken board
          > leashes and a broken kite line).

          All kites would collapse in very gusty wind (both light or strong
          wind). When a foil collapse, it folds itself and you can pull on the
          lines (walk or swim backward) to get it back to shape. When an
          inflatable collapse it simply falls and there is NOTHING you can do
          about it. In its first few weeks of use, I got my AR5 5.5 fall down in
          a pile of rocks and damage the front leading edge. I still have numerous
          tapes on the front leading edge of my AR5 5.5 to remind me of that
          event.

          Since then I have learned how to deal with the situation. Kites will
          collapse in gusty wind if you fly them using only the front lines (both
          for foils and inflatables). By keeping some tension on the back lines,
          you can prevent them from collapsing in gusty wind.

          > 2. Long lulls - foils take on water after a few minutes on the
          > water. Inflatables rule in this dept.

          That's what I used to believe but changed my belief after using the New
          Wave and also the JOJO Rage yesterday. A modern foil floats longer and
          relaunch easier in very little wind that unless the long lulls is less
          than 5 knots it should not be a problem relaunching them (I had numerous
          crashes with the New Wave and the JOJO Rage and so far be able to
          relaunch them with minimum effort)

          Furthermore, I may start using wakeboard and binding in the future after
          seeing Luke Stanek from JOJO kite doing
          the following:
          1- Launch the kite
          2- Walk into shallow water (or drag into deep water)
          3- Active the safety leash to land the kite straight down wind
          4- Get into the binding with "both hands"
          5- Grab the bar, launch the kite easily and start sailing

          Of all the methods of getting into the binding, this is the only one I
          think is "civilized", safe enough and may "lure" me into using it.

          P.S., I made some of the highest jumps around here yesterday with the
          JOJO Rage 4.0 m2 (very gusty wind, no depower rig setup). A high
          performance foil for medium and high wind will definitely be part of my
          kite quiver in the future.

          Hung.
        • Hung Vu
          ... I don t think the 5.5 jellyfishes worse than the 11.5. Besides, I find the jellyfish problem is fun once you are prepared for the rush . Yes, it was
          Message 4 of 21 , Jul 3, 2001
            Rick Iossi wrote:
            > I have a AR5 5.5 m as well but have only had enough wind to use it twice.
            > Both times the wind was in the high 30 mph range. I have heard that the 5.5
            > m jellyfishes badly in high wind. I have yet to experience that. What has
            > your experience been? That must have been some session. Did your kite
            > stall much?

            I don't think the 5.5 jellyfishes worse than the 11.5. Besides, I find
            the jellyfish "problem" is fun once you are prepared for the "rush".

            Yes, it was some session and I wished I had the nerve to go out with the
            4 lined Wipika Classis 3.5 with 15m line in 35+ knots (I call it quit
            after failing to launch the Wipika Classic 3.5 with 30m line)

            Hung.
          • kitesrfer@aol.com
            Hung, That is interesting that you have had a similar experience with the 5.5 m. I have had it out close to 40 mph and it was still very well behaved and on
            Message 5 of 21 , Jul 3, 2001
              Hung,

              That is interesting that you have had a similar experience with the 5.5 m. I
              have had it out close to 40 mph and it was still very well behaved and on 30
              m lines. My old 7.5 m, above the "sweet" wind range would become almost
              uncontrollable with violent jellyfishing along with folding back wing tips.
              It worked very well below that "terminal resonance" windspeed. It is
              interesting that the 5.5 was much more manageable than an old two lined
              Wipika classic that I once used in 40 to 45 mph winds. Much above 40 mph I
              did the "hungery porpose manuver". High winds are fun but I am glad that
              they are rare. I hope to last longer!

              Rick


              -----Original Message-----
              From: Hung Vu [mailto:hungvu@...]
              Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2001 8:18 PM
              To: ksurfschool@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [ksurfschool] Foils and gusty wind myth!


              Rick Iossi wrote:
              > I have a AR5 5.5 m as well but have only had enough wind to use it twice.
              > Both times the wind was in the high 30 mph range. I have heard that the 5.5
              > m jellyfishes badly in high wind. I have yet to experience that. What has
              > your experience been? That must have been some session. Did your kite
              > stall much?

              I don't think the 5.5 jellyfishes worse than the 11.5. Besides, I find
              the jellyfish "problem" is fun once you are prepared for the "rush".

              Yes, it was some session and I wished I had the nerve to go out with the
              4 lined Wipika Classis 3.5 with 15m line in 35+ knots (I call it quit
              after failing to launch the Wipika Classic 3.5 with 30m line)

              Hung.
            • fernmanus@yahoo.com
              Hung, Let s go back to what I was talking about. I agree that foils make sense in moderate/strong winds, but I am not so sure about light wind conditions. In
              Message 6 of 21 , Jul 5, 2001
                Hung,

                Let's go back to what I was talking about. I agree that foils make
                sense in moderate/strong winds, but I am not so sure about light wind
                conditions. In fact, I am considering buying a couple small foils
                that I can use for kite surfing and kite skiing. Hung, do you
                recommend the JoJo? If so, why?

                It is not such a big deal when your small kite folds. However, when
                it happens on a 3-line 9.3 New Wave and the kite finally decides to
                respond and open up 5 feet above the water with the lines twisted a
                couple times - WATCH OUT!!! You are going to get seriously dragged.

                My 9.3 New Wave did take on water during lulls of more than a few
                minutes and would not relaunch.

                I get into my wakeboard bindings by flying the kite out away from
                shore and then hooking into the trim loop. I usually fly the kite so
                that it is pulling me gradually away from shore and then hurry to get
                the bindings on. I wouldn't call it easy, but with a little bit of
                practise it is safe and no big deal.

                Kenny


                --- In ksurfschool@y..., Hung Vu <hungvu@n...> wrote:
                > Kenny,
                >
                > > I see two big problems with foils in light gusty inland
                conditions:
                > > 1. Folding: I had terrible problems with the kite folding in a
                brief
                > > lull and then reopening right before the kite hit the water. This
                > > mades for some brutal body drags (resulting in several broken
                board
                > > leashes and a broken kite line).
                >
                > All kites would collapse in very gusty wind (both light or strong
                > wind). When a foil collapse, it folds itself and you can pull on
                the
                > lines (walk or swim backward) to get it back to shape. When an
                > inflatable collapse it simply falls and there is NOTHING you can do
                > about it. In its first few weeks of use, I got my AR5 5.5 fall
                down in
                > a pile of rocks and damage the front leading edge. I still have
                numerous
                > tapes on the front leading edge of my AR5 5.5 to remind me of that
                > event.
                >
                > Since then I have learned how to deal with the situation. Kites
                will
                > collapse in gusty wind if you fly them using only the front lines
                (both
                > for foils and inflatables). By keeping some tension on the back
                lines,
                > you can prevent them from collapsing in gusty wind.
                >
                > > 2. Long lulls - foils take on water after a few minutes on the
                > > water. Inflatables rule in this dept.
                >
                > That's what I used to believe but changed my belief after using the
                New
                > Wave and also the JOJO Rage yesterday. A modern foil floats longer
                and
                > relaunch easier in very little wind that unless the long lulls is
                less
                > than 5 knots it should not be a problem relaunching them (I had
                numerous
                > crashes with the New Wave and the JOJO Rage and so far be able to
                > relaunch them with minimum effort)
                >
                > Furthermore, I may start using wakeboard and binding in the future
                after
                > seeing Luke Stanek from JOJO kite doing
                > the following:
                > 1- Launch the kite
                > 2- Walk into shallow water (or drag into deep water)
                > 3- Active the safety leash to land the kite straight down wind
                > 4- Get into the binding with "both hands"
                > 5- Grab the bar, launch the kite easily and start sailing
                >
                > Of all the methods of getting into the binding, this is the only
                one I
                > think is "civilized", safe enough and may "lure" me into using it.
                >
                > P.S., I made some of the highest jumps around here yesterday with
                the
                > JOJO Rage 4.0 m2 (very gusty wind, no depower rig setup). A high
                > performance foil for medium and high wind will definitely be part
                of my
                > kite quiver in the future.
                >
                > Hung.
              • Hung Vu
                Kenny, ... Light wind is where foils excel as in light wind you want a very high performance kite and a very light kite. So far only foils and C-Quad/Bean can
                Message 7 of 21 , Jul 5, 2001
                  Kenny,

                  > Let's go back to what I was talking about. I agree that foils make
                  > sense in moderate/strong winds, but I am not so sure about light wind
                  > conditions.

                  Light wind is where foils excel as in light wind you want a very high
                  performance kite and a very light kite. So far only foils and
                  C-Quad/Bean can deliver that type of characteristics.

                  I have been using the XXXL for more than 2 years (for both kitesurfing
                  and kiteskiing) and the Concept Air 12.5 and never have any problem with
                  them. Actually, the only "wish" I have is that they should be higher
                  performance and lighter (especially for the Concept air 12.5 due to its
                  use in even lighter wind)

                  > In fact, I am considering buying a couple small foils
                  > that I can use for kite surfing and kite skiing. Hung, do you
                  > recommend the JoJo? If so, why?

                  The only two medium/strong wind foils I ever flown are the New Wave 4.9
                  and the Jojo Rage 4.0 . So far they both work well. The Jojo Rage is a
                  higher performance one. Concept Air used to make the EX's Wave which is
                  of the same performance caliber as the Jojo Rage.

                  The reason I think medium/strong wind foil is of appeal for me is my
                  desire of jumping higher and the ability of using the same kite for both
                  kitesurfing and kiteskiing.

                  > It is not such a big deal when your small kite folds. However, when
                  > it happens on a 3-line 9.3 New Wave and the kite finally decides to
                  > respond and open up 5 feet above the water with the lines twisted a
                  > couple times - WATCH OUT!!! You are going to get seriously dragged.

                  If you use handle, just play with the brake lines to stall the kite. If
                  you use bar, pull on the center line to keep the kite under control.
                  It's easier to keep the kite under control and it fly whenever you are
                  ready. If worse come to worse, just drop the bar, you can relaunch the
                  kite later on with more control.

                  > My 9.3 New Wave did take on water during lulls of more than a few
                  > minutes and would not relaunch.

                  It's true that if you have the lulls less than 5 knots for a few
                  minutes, most foils would absorb so much water and won't relaunch. If
                  you go out in such light wind and want the ability to relaunch more
                  reliable, foils with inflatable cells such as the Mosquito and the Jojo
                  Wet is better.

                  I always use opened cell foils for light wind due to the closed cell
                  effect which make closed-cell foil not as good as opened cell foil in
                  light and gusty wind.

                  Hung.
                • pault-colston
                  you are all talking about 9.3 and 12.5 concept air i have a 6.3 new wave which a fantasic kite. now need a light wind kite but hear anything bigger is not to
                  Message 8 of 21 , Jul 5, 2001
                    you are all talking about 9.3 and 12.5 concept air i have a 6.3 new wave
                    which a fantasic kite. now need a light wind kite but hear anything bigger
                    is not to the same standard

                    ----------
                    >From: Hung Vu <hungvu@...>
                    >To: ksurfschool@yahoogroups.com
                    >Subject: Re: [ksurfschool] Re: Foils and gusty wind NOT A myth!
                    >Date: Fri, Jul 6, 2001, 3:24 am
                    >

                    > Kenny,
                    >
                    >> Let's go back to what I was talking about. I agree that foils make
                    >> sense in moderate/strong winds, but I am not so sure about light wind
                    >> conditions.
                    >
                    > Light wind is where foils excel as in light wind you want a very high
                    > performance kite and a very light kite. So far only foils and
                    > C-Quad/Bean can deliver that type of characteristics.
                    >
                    > I have been using the XXXL for more than 2 years (for both kitesurfing
                    > and kiteskiing) and the Concept Air 12.5 and never have any problem with
                    > them. Actually, the only "wish" I have is that they should be higher
                    > performance and lighter (especially for the Concept air 12.5 due to its
                    > use in even lighter wind)
                    >
                    >> In fact, I am considering buying a couple small foils
                    >> that I can use for kite surfing and kite skiing. Hung, do you
                    >> recommend the JoJo? If so, why?
                    >
                    > The only two medium/strong wind foils I ever flown are the New Wave 4.9
                    > and the Jojo Rage 4.0 . So far they both work well. The Jojo Rage is a
                    > higher performance one. Concept Air used to make the EX's Wave which is
                    > of the same performance caliber as the Jojo Rage.
                    >
                    > The reason I think medium/strong wind foil is of appeal for me is my
                    > desire of jumping higher and the ability of using the same kite for both
                    > kitesurfing and kiteskiing.
                    >
                    >> It is not such a big deal when your small kite folds. However, when
                    >> it happens on a 3-line 9.3 New Wave and the kite finally decides to
                    >> respond and open up 5 feet above the water with the lines twisted a
                    >> couple times - WATCH OUT!!! You are going to get seriously dragged.
                    >
                    > If you use handle, just play with the brake lines to stall the kite. If
                    > you use bar, pull on the center line to keep the kite under control.
                    > It's easier to keep the kite under control and it fly whenever you are
                    > ready. If worse come to worse, just drop the bar, you can relaunch the
                    > kite later on with more control.
                    >
                    >> My 9.3 New Wave did take on water during lulls of more than a few
                    >> minutes and would not relaunch.
                    >
                    > It's true that if you have the lulls less than 5 knots for a few
                    > minutes, most foils would absorb so much water and won't relaunch. If
                    > you go out in such light wind and want the ability to relaunch more
                    > reliable, foils with inflatable cells such as the Mosquito and the Jojo
                    > Wet is better.
                    >
                    > I always use opened cell foils for light wind due to the closed cell
                    > effect which make closed-cell foil not as good as opened cell foil in
                    > light and gusty wind.
                    >
                    > Hung.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                    >
                    >
                  • Mel
                    ... I know it doesn t really come under the foil classification we re discussing, but I had an ARC on the water for quite a while (a few minutes) & it
                    Message 9 of 21 , Jul 6, 2001
                      Hung Vu <hungvu@...> wrote:

                      > It's true that if you have the lulls less than 5 knots for a few
                      > minutes, most foils would absorb so much water and won't relaunch. If
                      > you go out in such light wind and want the ability to relaunch more
                      > reliable, foils with inflatable cells such as the Mosquito and the Jojo
                      > Wet is better.

                      I know it doesn't really come under the "foil" classification we're
                      discussing, but I had an ARC on the water for quite a while (a few minutes)
                      & it relaunched easily in a 5 knot puff.

                      Speaking of ARCs, stacking them for light wind performance seems to be
                      getting increasingly popular. I had to have it explained to me like this
                      before I finally understood the maneuverability issue: You're steering the
                      little kite on the bottom. IT pulls the bigger, upper kite with it, from
                      RIGHT THERE (faster response, due to 7m lines). Overall what happens is it
                      steers quicker than the big kite by itself !!

                      Mel
                    • Hung Vu
                      ... I am not sure understand why an ARC, being heavier, would relaunch and a high performance foil would not in the same condition... Hung.
                      Message 10 of 21 , Jul 6, 2001
                        Mel wrote:
                        > > It's true that if you have the lulls less than 5 knots for a few
                        > > minutes, most foils would absorb so much water and won't relaunch. If
                        > > you go out in such light wind and want the ability to relaunch more
                        > > reliable, foils with inflatable cells such as the Mosquito and the Jojo
                        > > Wet is better.
                        >
                        > I know it doesn't really come under the "foil" classification we're
                        > discussing, but I had an ARC on the water for quite a while (a few minutes)
                        > & it relaunched easily in a 5 knot puff.

                        I am not sure understand why an ARC, being heavier, would relaunch and a
                        high performance foil would not in the same condition...

                        Hung.
                      • Doug Adams (E-mail)
                        IMHO arcs launch so well because the angle of attack can be varied. Just don t turn them inside out treating them like an inflatable while lying on the water!
                        Message 11 of 21 , Jul 6, 2001
                          IMHO arcs launch so well because the angle of attack can be varied. Just
                          don't turn them inside out treating them like an inflatable while lying on
                          the water! A foil launching leading edge up downwind has tons of drag and
                          very little lift because the bridal sets the AOA at nearly 90 degrees
                          relative the wind. My experience is foils launch much better backward,
                          flying on their brakes, from downwind.

                          Doug

                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: Mel [mailto:kitebord@...]
                          Sent: Friday, July 06, 2001 9:42 PM
                          To: ksurfschool@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: Re: [ksurfschool] Re: Foils and gusty wind NOT A myth!


                          Hung Vu <hungvu@...> wrote:

                          > I am not sure understand why an ARC, being heavier, would relaunch and a
                          > high performance foil would not in the same condition...

                          Could be any of a number of factors:
                          No bridle (I'm sure when wet it adds more weight than you'd think, just like
                          it adds more drag than you'd think).
                          Tip battens (added weight, but maybe they help somehow).
                          General shape (maybe the arched shape helps somehow).
                          Flexibility of shape without bridles (don't know how that would help, but it
                          might).
                          The fact that mine was practically brand new at the time might be a factor.

                          On the other hand, since I only tried it once, maybe I was just lucky. It
                          seems the consensus is you never get good at relaunching an ARC because it's
                          so rare to crash them. Anybody else have extremely good success relaunching
                          ARCs in light winds?

                          Mel




                          Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                        • Mel
                          ... Could be any of a number of factors: No bridle (I m sure when wet it adds more weight than you d think, just like it adds more drag than you d think). Tip
                          Message 12 of 21 , Jul 6, 2001
                            Hung Vu <hungvu@...> wrote:

                            > I am not sure understand why an ARC, being heavier, would relaunch and a
                            > high performance foil would not in the same condition...

                            Could be any of a number of factors:
                            No bridle (I'm sure when wet it adds more weight than you'd think, just like
                            it adds more drag than you'd think).
                            Tip battens (added weight, but maybe they help somehow).
                            General shape (maybe the arched shape helps somehow).
                            Flexibility of shape without bridles (don't know how that would help, but it
                            might).
                            The fact that mine was practically brand new at the time might be a factor.

                            On the other hand, since I only tried it once, maybe I was just lucky. It
                            seems the consensus is you never get good at relaunching an ARC because it's
                            so rare to crash them. Anybody else have extremely good success relaunching
                            ARCs in light winds?

                            Mel
                          • Mel
                            ... It s supposed to be possible to do that with an ARC too, but I had to intentionally crash it LE down to try it, & by the time I d adjusted my center strap
                            Message 13 of 21 , Jul 6, 2001
                              Doug Adams (E-mail) <rcpilot@...> wrote:

                              >My experience is foils launch much better backward,
                              > flying on their brakes, from downwind.

                              It's supposed to be possible to do that with an ARC too, but I had to
                              intentionally crash it LE down to try it, & by the time I'd adjusted my
                              center strap all the way out the darn thing was airborne again! In other
                              words, if you really want to try it, make sure you adjust your strap all the
                              way out BEFORE you "land" it nose down, or it may relaunch on its own before
                              you get a chance to try the reverse launch.

                              Mel
                            • Hung Vu
                              Actually, the issue Kenny raised is that after staying in the water during a lull for a while (let s say 10 minutes of less than 5 knots), most closed-cells
                              Message 14 of 21 , Jul 7, 2001
                                Actually, the issue Kenny raised is that after staying in the water
                                during a lull for a while (let's say 10 minutes of less than 5 knots),
                                most closed-cells foil or Arc would absorb so much water that would
                                render them un-relauncheable when the wind pick up. This is more to do
                                with the ability of the kite keeping the water out. I notice that
                                modern closed cell foils float better and are constructed better allow
                                them to stay on the water longer.

                                I had only one experience with the Arc kiteskiing in the winter in very
                                light wind. We could relaunch foil easily (both LE up and LE down) and
                                could not relaunch the Arc in that light wind (LE down).

                                P.S., I am very intrigued about the novelty of the Arc and always try to
                                think of a reason to buy one. I select inflatable for its reliable
                                water relaunch and decent performance; I select a foil for higher
                                performance/higher jump and light wind. Can someone shred a light why
                                would I buy/try an Arc (stacking for light wind is not it as it sounds
                                pretty complex and difficult)

                                Hung.

                                Mel wrote:
                                >
                                > Hung Vu <hungvu@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > > I am not sure understand why an ARC, being heavier, would relaunch and a
                                > > high performance foil would not in the same condition...
                                >
                                > Could be any of a number of factors:
                                > No bridle (I'm sure when wet it adds more weight than you'd think, just like
                                > it adds more drag than you'd think).
                                > Tip battens (added weight, but maybe they help somehow).
                                > General shape (maybe the arched shape helps somehow).
                                > Flexibility of shape without bridles (don't know how that would help, but it
                                > might).
                                > The fact that mine was practically brand new at the time might be a factor.
                                >
                                > On the other hand, since I only tried it once, maybe I was just lucky. It
                                > seems the consensus is you never get good at relaunching an ARC because it's
                                > so rare to crash them. Anybody else have extremely good success relaunching
                                > ARCs in light winds?
                                >
                                > Mel
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
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