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Re: [ksurfschool] Foils and gusty wind myth!

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  • kitesrfer@aol.com
    Hung, You have hit some great spots. How was Australia, where did you end up over there? As to Maui being a non-gusty spot, don t go there in July! When I
    Message 1 of 21 , Jul 2, 2001
      Hung,

      You have hit some great spots. How was Australia, where did you end up over
      there? As to Maui being a non-gusty spot, don't go there in July! When I
      was out there I had the greatest gust range of anyplace that I have
      kitesurfed. Typically 20 to 35 to 38 mph with two days at 20 to 45 mph +!
      I was on a Wipika classic at the time, which was quite a handful as it was.
      I remember when they had the first King of the Air over there, Raphael S. of
      F one tried to fly a foil but it kept collasping and reinflating in lulls and
      gusts. I suspect current foils may be less prone to this performance.

      Of course Maui is a far cry from your 5 to 45 kt. experience. Under those
      conditions I think I would leave the kites at home and watch the birds try to
      deal with that. That could be pretty entertaining all by itself!

      Good winds,
      Rick

      <<
      Being a landlocked sailor, I have windsurf/kitesurf at most popular
      places on earth (Canada, US, Europe, Caribbean, Mexico, Venezuela,
      Hawaii, Australia, etc.) I can say that Maui is on my prefer list of
      non-gusty wind location (strong but not gusty - I am talking about the
      North shore).

      Of all the places, home is where I find the most gusty condition when
      the wind blows over the tree and building before it gets to the lake
      (our side-slightly-off-shore condition).

      Wind range is the range of the wind speed from the beginning to the end
      of the session. Gust is the range of the wind in any 30 seconds
      period. In a day at home (yesterday in fact!), we may have a wind range
      of 5 - 45 knots and a gust of 50% - 100% increase in wind speed in any
      30 seconds period. What this means is a kite with larger wind range
      allow us to have a longer session and a kite with shorter wind range a
      shorter session.

      Only the inflatable can currently handle double wind speed wind range or
      100% increase in wind speed (e.g., 10 - 20 knots or 12 to 25 knots for
      me with my AR5 5.5). Normal foil probably 50% (10 - 15 knots) and new
      generation of foils such as the New Wave 75% (10 - 17.5 knots). If you
      add this range with proper edging skill, you can easily handle most
      gusts in the world with the inflatables or the newer generation of
      foils.

      The only advantage of inflatables over foils currently is wind-range,
      all the others are myths...*

      These myths are very similar to the Wipika Classic myth in the early
      day: "You can't go up wind with a Wipika Classic ..."

      Of course foils have other advantages over inflatables; however, they
      are the topics of another discussion...

      * I am not discussing about the intrinsic differences between foils and
      inflatables (drift-launching, pumping, kite maintenance, etc.)

      Hung.


      Dave Raue wrote:
      >
      > FWIW, I think the issue here is how gusty is a gust. I suspect we may be
      > comparing apples and oranges. I'm told that on Maui it can be blowing,
      say,
      > 15kts and all of a sudden it goes to 30 kts for a couple minutes, then back
      > to15 again. On Long Island a gust would be more like blowing at 15kts and
      > 30 seconds of 18-20 kts then back to 15. Foils can easily handle the
      latter
      > case. But I wouldn't want to be on a 7.5m foil in 15 kts and have it go to
      > 30! I can't imagine any way that would be managable.
      >
      > -Dave
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: "Philip Mann" <phil@...>
      > To: <ksurfschool@yahoogroups.com>
      > Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2001 9:00 AM
      > Subject: RE: [ksurfschool] Foils and gusty wind myth!
      >
      > > I totally agree!
      > > I have been using my F-ONEs in off shore gusty winds to take advantage of
      > > the smooth water.
      > > In a strong gust the foil rushes to the edge of the window very quickly
      > > allowing it to deposer by itself and then slows down in the lulls, it
      does
      > > luff a bit if the difference in wind strength in gust and luff is great,
      > but
      > > it very rarely folds.
      > >
      > > Philip
      > >
      > > Inland Sea Windsurf Co and Kitesite.net
      > > 1-888-465-2632
      > > 1-802-862-3847
      > > www.inlandsea.com
      > > www.kitesite.net
      > >
      > > -----Original Message-----
      > > From: Hung Vu [mailto:hungvu@...]
      > > Sent: Saturday, June 30, 2001 7:37 AM
      > > To: cankitesurf@egroups.com; kitesurf@egroups.com;
      > > ksurfschool@yahoogroups.com
      > > Subject: [ksurfschool] Foils and gusty wind myth!
      > >
      > >
      > > I always believed that foils are useless in gusty wind.
      > >
      > > I took my New Wave 4.9 m2 out yesterday in probably the most gusty wind
      > > we have around here (inland lake, roughly 2 x 6 km). I only had the 11.5
      > > and the New Wave 4.9 with me because the wind was lighter when I left
      > > home; otherwise, I would be afraid of the gusty wind and use the AR5 5.5
      > > instead.
      > >
      > > The New Wave 4.9 was doing OK, just as the AR5 would in this gusty
      > > condition.
      > >
      > > It could be the technique too as I normally don't use the "chicken loop"
      > > and rely more on board edging and the strap to adjust the power of the
      > > kite.
      > >
      > > Not bad for a used foil I bought last winter for roughly $250 USD!
      > >
      > > Hung. >>
    • Hung Vu
      ... We actually went out for a 1 - 2 hours session! I used my AR5 5.5 with 15 m line and Luke Stanek from JOJO with his JoJo Rage 4.0 m2 (he is here 1 or 2
      Message 2 of 21 , Jul 2, 2001
        kitesrfer@... wrote:
        > Of course Maui is a far cry from your 5 to 45 kt. experience. Under those
        > conditions I think I would leave the kites at home and watch the birds try to
        > deal with that. That could be pretty entertaining all by itself!

        We actually went out for a 1 - 2 hours session! I used my AR5 5.5 with
        15 m line and Luke Stanek from JOJO with his JoJo Rage 4.0 m2 (he is
        here 1 or 2 days for product demo). We quitted when the wind become 35+
        knots (the windsurfers started rigging down to 3.x sails).

        Going from 30m line to 15m line add another 5-8 knots to the upper wind
        range of my AR5 5.5; however, it is harder to jump and jibe as thing is
        happening so fast with shorter line.

        Hung.
      • Rick Iossi
        Hung, I have a AR5 5.5 m as well but have only had enough wind to use it twice. Both times the wind was in the high 30 mph range. I have heard that the 5.5 m
        Message 3 of 21 , Jul 2, 2001
          Hung,

          I have a AR5 5.5 m as well but have only had enough wind to use it twice.
          Both times the wind was in the high 30 mph range. I have heard that the 5.5
          m jellyfishes badly in high wind. I have yet to experience that. What has
          your experience been? That must have been some session. Did your kite
          stall much?

          Rick

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Hung Vu" <hungvu@...>
          To: <ksurfschool@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Monday, July 02, 2001 10:06 AM
          Subject: Re: [ksurfschool] Foils and gusty wind myth!


          > kitesrfer@... wrote:
          > > Of course Maui is a far cry from your 5 to 45 kt. experience. Under
          those
          > > conditions I think I would leave the kites at home and watch the birds
          try to
          > > deal with that. That could be pretty entertaining all by itself!
          >
          > We actually went out for a 1 - 2 hours session! I used my AR5 5.5 with
          > 15 m line and Luke Stanek from JOJO with his JoJo Rage 4.0 m2 (he is
          > here 1 or 2 days for product demo). We quitted when the wind become 35+
          > knots (the windsurfers started rigging down to 3.x sails).
          >
          > Going from 30m line to 15m line add another 5-8 knots to the upper wind
          > range of my AR5 5.5; however, it is harder to jump and jibe as thing is
          > happening so fast with shorter line.
          >
          > Hung.
          >
          >
          >
          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          >
          >
        • Dave Raue
          While I don t agree about the taking on water part (at least for Mosquitos), I ve suffered from the folding/luffing problem in light winds too. I ve found
          Message 4 of 21 , Jul 2, 2001
            While I don't agree about the taking on water part (at least for Mosquitos),
            I've suffered from the folding/luffing problem in light winds too. I've
            found that if i'm using a board with straps it's not so bad cause you can
            keep the kite moving around and just get in and go. But wakeboard bindings
            are another matter. When 75% of your attention is on getting in bindings
            and the other 75% (!!) on dealing with luffs it can get ugly. A 3 or 4-line
            set up is preffered IMHO cause you can often recover by a quick snap on the
            brakes. On the other hand, once you get going it's easier to deal with.
            Many's the time that I've recovered from a gust-induced luff when fully
            locked in but sharply turning upwind to snap the lines tight. The first
            time I couldn't believe that it really worked, but it does!

            -D
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: <fernmanus@...>
            To: <ksurfschool@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Monday, July 02, 2001 5:30 PM
            Subject: [ksurfschool] Re: Foils and gusty wind NOT A myth!


            > Hung,
            >
            > My experience with foils in gusty light winds was not positive. I
            > used a 9.3 CA New Wave last year. I sold it and I now use a Wipika
            > 16.4 AB in similar conditions.
            >
            > I see two big problems with foils in light gusty inland conditions:
            > 1. Folding: I had terrible problems with the kite folding in a brief
            > lull and then reopening right before the kite hit the water. This
            > mades for some brutal body drags (resulting in several broken board
            > leashes and a broken kite line).
            > 2. Long lulls - foils take on water after a few minutes on the
            > water. Inflatables rule in this dept.
            >
            > Of course, I am talking about larger kites. The problems that I
            > experienced do not occur regularly when using smaller kites.
            >
            > Kenny
            >
            > --- In ksurfschool@y..., Hung Vu <hungvu@n...> wrote:
            > >
            > > Being a landlocked sailor, I have windsurf/kitesurf at most popular
            > > places on earth (Canada, US, Europe, Caribbean, Mexico, Venezuela,
            > > Hawaii, Australia, etc.) I can say that Maui is on my prefer list of
            > > non-gusty wind location (strong but not gusty - I am talking about
            > the
            > > North shore).
            > >
            > > Of all the places, home is where I find the most gusty condition
            > when
            > > the wind blows over the tree and building before it gets to the lake
            > > (our side-slightly-off-shore condition).
            > >
            > > Wind range is the range of the wind speed from the beginning to the
            > end
            > > of the session. Gust is the range of the wind in any 30 seconds
            > > period. In a day at home (yesterday in fact!), we may have a wind
            > range
            > > of 5 - 45 knots and a gust of 50% - 100% increase in wind speed in
            > any
            > > 30 seconds period. What this means is a kite with larger wind range
            > > allow us to have a longer session and a kite with shorter wind
            > range a
            > > shorter session.
            > >
            > > Only the inflatable can currently handle double wind speed wind
            > range or
            > > 100% increase in wind speed (e.g., 10 - 20 knots or 12 to 25 knots
            > for
            > > me with my AR5 5.5). Normal foil probably 50% (10 - 15 knots) and
            > new
            > > generation of foils such as the New Wave 75% (10 - 17.5 knots). If
            > you
            > > add this range with proper edging skill, you can easily handle most
            > > gusts in the world with the inflatables or the newer generation of
            > > foils.
            > >
            > > The only advantage of inflatables over foils currently is wind-
            > range,
            > > all the others are myths...*
            > >
            > > These myths are very similar to the Wipika Classic myth in the early
            > > day: "You can't go up wind with a Wipika Classic ..."
            > >
            > > Of course foils have other advantages over inflatables; however,
            > they
            > > are the topics of another discussion...
            > >
            > > * I am not discussing about the intrinsic differences between foils
            > and
            > > inflatables (drift-launching, pumping, kite maintenance, etc.)
            > >
            > > Hung.
            > >
            > >
            > > Dave Raue wrote:
            > > >
            > > > FWIW, I think the issue here is how gusty is a gust. I suspect
            > we may be
            > > > comparing apples and oranges. I'm told that on Maui it can be
            > blowing, say,
            > > > 15kts and all of a sudden it goes to 30 kts for a couple minutes,
            > then back
            > > > to15 again. On Long Island a gust would be more like blowing at
            > 15kts and
            > > > 30 seconds of 18-20 kts then back to 15. Foils can easily handle
            > the latter
            > > > case. But I wouldn't want to be on a 7.5m foil in 15 kts and
            > have it go to
            > > > 30! I can't imagine any way that would be managable.
            > > >
            > > > -Dave
            > > > ----- Original Message -----
            > > > From: "Philip Mann" <phil@i...>
            > > > To: <ksurfschool@y...>
            > > > Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2001 9:00 AM
            > > > Subject: RE: [ksurfschool] Foils and gusty wind myth!
            > > >
            > > > > I totally agree!
            > > > > I have been using my F-ONEs in off shore gusty winds to take
            > advantage of
            > > > > the smooth water.
            > > > > In a strong gust the foil rushes to the edge of the window very
            > quickly
            > > > > allowing it to deposer by itself and then slows down in the
            > lulls, it does
            > > > > luff a bit if the difference in wind strength in gust and luff
            > is great,
            > > > but
            > > > > it very rarely folds.
            > > > >
            > > > > Philip
            > > > >
            > > > > Inland Sea Windsurf Co and Kitesite.net
            > > > > 1-888-465-2632
            > > > > 1-802-862-3847
            > > > > www.inlandsea.com
            > > > > www.kitesite.net
            > > > >
            > > > > -----Original Message-----
            > > > > From: Hung Vu [mailto:hungvu@n...]
            > > > > Sent: Saturday, June 30, 2001 7:37 AM
            > > > > To: cankitesurf@egroups.com; kitesurf@egroups.com;
            > > > > ksurfschool@y...
            > > > > Subject: [ksurfschool] Foils and gusty wind myth!
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > > I always believed that foils are useless in gusty wind.
            > > > >
            > > > > I took my New Wave 4.9 m2 out yesterday in probably the most
            > gusty wind
            > > > > we have around here (inland lake, roughly 2 x 6 km). I only had
            > the 11.5
            > > > > and the New Wave 4.9 with me because the wind was lighter when
            > I left
            > > > > home; otherwise, I would be afraid of the gusty wind and use
            > the AR5 5.5
            > > > > instead.
            > > > >
            > > > > The New Wave 4.9 was doing OK, just as the AR5 would in this
            > gusty
            > > > > condition.
            > > > >
            > > > > It could be the technique too as I normally don't use
            > the "chicken loop"
            > > > > and rely more on board edging and the strap to adjust the power
            > of the
            > > > > kite.
            > > > >
            > > > > Not bad for a used foil I bought last winter for roughly $250
            > USD!
            > > > >
            > > > > Hung.
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
            > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
            > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
            > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            >
            >
          • fernmanus@yahoo.com
            Hung, My experience with foils in gusty light winds was not positive. I used a 9.3 CA New Wave last year. I sold it and I now use a Wipika 16.4 AB in similar
            Message 5 of 21 , Jul 2, 2001
              Hung,

              My experience with foils in gusty light winds was not positive. I
              used a 9.3 CA New Wave last year. I sold it and I now use a Wipika
              16.4 AB in similar conditions.

              I see two big problems with foils in light gusty inland conditions:
              1. Folding: I had terrible problems with the kite folding in a brief
              lull and then reopening right before the kite hit the water. This
              mades for some brutal body drags (resulting in several broken board
              leashes and a broken kite line).
              2. Long lulls - foils take on water after a few minutes on the
              water. Inflatables rule in this dept.

              Of course, I am talking about larger kites. The problems that I
              experienced do not occur regularly when using smaller kites.

              Kenny

              --- In ksurfschool@y..., Hung Vu <hungvu@n...> wrote:
              >
              > Being a landlocked sailor, I have windsurf/kitesurf at most popular
              > places on earth (Canada, US, Europe, Caribbean, Mexico, Venezuela,
              > Hawaii, Australia, etc.) I can say that Maui is on my prefer list of
              > non-gusty wind location (strong but not gusty - I am talking about
              the
              > North shore).
              >
              > Of all the places, home is where I find the most gusty condition
              when
              > the wind blows over the tree and building before it gets to the lake
              > (our side-slightly-off-shore condition).
              >
              > Wind range is the range of the wind speed from the beginning to the
              end
              > of the session. Gust is the range of the wind in any 30 seconds
              > period. In a day at home (yesterday in fact!), we may have a wind
              range
              > of 5 - 45 knots and a gust of 50% - 100% increase in wind speed in
              any
              > 30 seconds period. What this means is a kite with larger wind range
              > allow us to have a longer session and a kite with shorter wind
              range a
              > shorter session.
              >
              > Only the inflatable can currently handle double wind speed wind
              range or
              > 100% increase in wind speed (e.g., 10 - 20 knots or 12 to 25 knots
              for
              > me with my AR5 5.5). Normal foil probably 50% (10 - 15 knots) and
              new
              > generation of foils such as the New Wave 75% (10 - 17.5 knots). If
              you
              > add this range with proper edging skill, you can easily handle most
              > gusts in the world with the inflatables or the newer generation of
              > foils.
              >
              > The only advantage of inflatables over foils currently is wind-
              range,
              > all the others are myths...*
              >
              > These myths are very similar to the Wipika Classic myth in the early
              > day: "You can't go up wind with a Wipika Classic ..."
              >
              > Of course foils have other advantages over inflatables; however,
              they
              > are the topics of another discussion...
              >
              > * I am not discussing about the intrinsic differences between foils
              and
              > inflatables (drift-launching, pumping, kite maintenance, etc.)
              >
              > Hung.
              >
              >
              > Dave Raue wrote:
              > >
              > > FWIW, I think the issue here is how gusty is a gust. I suspect
              we may be
              > > comparing apples and oranges. I'm told that on Maui it can be
              blowing, say,
              > > 15kts and all of a sudden it goes to 30 kts for a couple minutes,
              then back
              > > to15 again. On Long Island a gust would be more like blowing at
              15kts and
              > > 30 seconds of 18-20 kts then back to 15. Foils can easily handle
              the latter
              > > case. But I wouldn't want to be on a 7.5m foil in 15 kts and
              have it go to
              > > 30! I can't imagine any way that would be managable.
              > >
              > > -Dave
              > > ----- Original Message -----
              > > From: "Philip Mann" <phil@i...>
              > > To: <ksurfschool@y...>
              > > Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2001 9:00 AM
              > > Subject: RE: [ksurfschool] Foils and gusty wind myth!
              > >
              > > > I totally agree!
              > > > I have been using my F-ONEs in off shore gusty winds to take
              advantage of
              > > > the smooth water.
              > > > In a strong gust the foil rushes to the edge of the window very
              quickly
              > > > allowing it to deposer by itself and then slows down in the
              lulls, it does
              > > > luff a bit if the difference in wind strength in gust and luff
              is great,
              > > but
              > > > it very rarely folds.
              > > >
              > > > Philip
              > > >
              > > > Inland Sea Windsurf Co and Kitesite.net
              > > > 1-888-465-2632
              > > > 1-802-862-3847
              > > > www.inlandsea.com
              > > > www.kitesite.net
              > > >
              > > > -----Original Message-----
              > > > From: Hung Vu [mailto:hungvu@n...]
              > > > Sent: Saturday, June 30, 2001 7:37 AM
              > > > To: cankitesurf@egroups.com; kitesurf@egroups.com;
              > > > ksurfschool@y...
              > > > Subject: [ksurfschool] Foils and gusty wind myth!
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > I always believed that foils are useless in gusty wind.
              > > >
              > > > I took my New Wave 4.9 m2 out yesterday in probably the most
              gusty wind
              > > > we have around here (inland lake, roughly 2 x 6 km). I only had
              the 11.5
              > > > and the New Wave 4.9 with me because the wind was lighter when
              I left
              > > > home; otherwise, I would be afraid of the gusty wind and use
              the AR5 5.5
              > > > instead.
              > > >
              > > > The New Wave 4.9 was doing OK, just as the AR5 would in this
              gusty
              > > > condition.
              > > >
              > > > It could be the technique too as I normally don't use
              the "chicken loop"
              > > > and rely more on board edging and the strap to adjust the power
              of the
              > > > kite.
              > > >
              > > > Not bad for a used foil I bought last winter for roughly $250
              USD!
              > > >
              > > > Hung.
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
              http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
              http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              > > >
              > > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
              http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            • Hung Vu
              Kenny, ... All kites would collapse in very gusty wind (both light or strong wind). When a foil collapse, it folds itself and you can pull on the lines (walk
              Message 6 of 21 , Jul 3, 2001
                Kenny,

                > I see two big problems with foils in light gusty inland conditions:
                > 1. Folding: I had terrible problems with the kite folding in a brief
                > lull and then reopening right before the kite hit the water. This
                > mades for some brutal body drags (resulting in several broken board
                > leashes and a broken kite line).

                All kites would collapse in very gusty wind (both light or strong
                wind). When a foil collapse, it folds itself and you can pull on the
                lines (walk or swim backward) to get it back to shape. When an
                inflatable collapse it simply falls and there is NOTHING you can do
                about it. In its first few weeks of use, I got my AR5 5.5 fall down in
                a pile of rocks and damage the front leading edge. I still have numerous
                tapes on the front leading edge of my AR5 5.5 to remind me of that
                event.

                Since then I have learned how to deal with the situation. Kites will
                collapse in gusty wind if you fly them using only the front lines (both
                for foils and inflatables). By keeping some tension on the back lines,
                you can prevent them from collapsing in gusty wind.

                > 2. Long lulls - foils take on water after a few minutes on the
                > water. Inflatables rule in this dept.

                That's what I used to believe but changed my belief after using the New
                Wave and also the JOJO Rage yesterday. A modern foil floats longer and
                relaunch easier in very little wind that unless the long lulls is less
                than 5 knots it should not be a problem relaunching them (I had numerous
                crashes with the New Wave and the JOJO Rage and so far be able to
                relaunch them with minimum effort)

                Furthermore, I may start using wakeboard and binding in the future after
                seeing Luke Stanek from JOJO kite doing
                the following:
                1- Launch the kite
                2- Walk into shallow water (or drag into deep water)
                3- Active the safety leash to land the kite straight down wind
                4- Get into the binding with "both hands"
                5- Grab the bar, launch the kite easily and start sailing

                Of all the methods of getting into the binding, this is the only one I
                think is "civilized", safe enough and may "lure" me into using it.

                P.S., I made some of the highest jumps around here yesterday with the
                JOJO Rage 4.0 m2 (very gusty wind, no depower rig setup). A high
                performance foil for medium and high wind will definitely be part of my
                kite quiver in the future.

                Hung.
              • Hung Vu
                ... I don t think the 5.5 jellyfishes worse than the 11.5. Besides, I find the jellyfish problem is fun once you are prepared for the rush . Yes, it was
                Message 7 of 21 , Jul 3, 2001
                  Rick Iossi wrote:
                  > I have a AR5 5.5 m as well but have only had enough wind to use it twice.
                  > Both times the wind was in the high 30 mph range. I have heard that the 5.5
                  > m jellyfishes badly in high wind. I have yet to experience that. What has
                  > your experience been? That must have been some session. Did your kite
                  > stall much?

                  I don't think the 5.5 jellyfishes worse than the 11.5. Besides, I find
                  the jellyfish "problem" is fun once you are prepared for the "rush".

                  Yes, it was some session and I wished I had the nerve to go out with the
                  4 lined Wipika Classis 3.5 with 15m line in 35+ knots (I call it quit
                  after failing to launch the Wipika Classic 3.5 with 30m line)

                  Hung.
                • kitesrfer@aol.com
                  Hung, That is interesting that you have had a similar experience with the 5.5 m. I have had it out close to 40 mph and it was still very well behaved and on
                  Message 8 of 21 , Jul 3, 2001
                    Hung,

                    That is interesting that you have had a similar experience with the 5.5 m. I
                    have had it out close to 40 mph and it was still very well behaved and on 30
                    m lines. My old 7.5 m, above the "sweet" wind range would become almost
                    uncontrollable with violent jellyfishing along with folding back wing tips.
                    It worked very well below that "terminal resonance" windspeed. It is
                    interesting that the 5.5 was much more manageable than an old two lined
                    Wipika classic that I once used in 40 to 45 mph winds. Much above 40 mph I
                    did the "hungery porpose manuver". High winds are fun but I am glad that
                    they are rare. I hope to last longer!

                    Rick


                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: Hung Vu [mailto:hungvu@...]
                    Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2001 8:18 PM
                    To: ksurfschool@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [ksurfschool] Foils and gusty wind myth!


                    Rick Iossi wrote:
                    > I have a AR5 5.5 m as well but have only had enough wind to use it twice.
                    > Both times the wind was in the high 30 mph range. I have heard that the 5.5
                    > m jellyfishes badly in high wind. I have yet to experience that. What has
                    > your experience been? That must have been some session. Did your kite
                    > stall much?

                    I don't think the 5.5 jellyfishes worse than the 11.5. Besides, I find
                    the jellyfish "problem" is fun once you are prepared for the "rush".

                    Yes, it was some session and I wished I had the nerve to go out with the
                    4 lined Wipika Classis 3.5 with 15m line in 35+ knots (I call it quit
                    after failing to launch the Wipika Classic 3.5 with 30m line)

                    Hung.
                  • fernmanus@yahoo.com
                    Hung, Let s go back to what I was talking about. I agree that foils make sense in moderate/strong winds, but I am not so sure about light wind conditions. In
                    Message 9 of 21 , Jul 5, 2001
                      Hung,

                      Let's go back to what I was talking about. I agree that foils make
                      sense in moderate/strong winds, but I am not so sure about light wind
                      conditions. In fact, I am considering buying a couple small foils
                      that I can use for kite surfing and kite skiing. Hung, do you
                      recommend the JoJo? If so, why?

                      It is not such a big deal when your small kite folds. However, when
                      it happens on a 3-line 9.3 New Wave and the kite finally decides to
                      respond and open up 5 feet above the water with the lines twisted a
                      couple times - WATCH OUT!!! You are going to get seriously dragged.

                      My 9.3 New Wave did take on water during lulls of more than a few
                      minutes and would not relaunch.

                      I get into my wakeboard bindings by flying the kite out away from
                      shore and then hooking into the trim loop. I usually fly the kite so
                      that it is pulling me gradually away from shore and then hurry to get
                      the bindings on. I wouldn't call it easy, but with a little bit of
                      practise it is safe and no big deal.

                      Kenny


                      --- In ksurfschool@y..., Hung Vu <hungvu@n...> wrote:
                      > Kenny,
                      >
                      > > I see two big problems with foils in light gusty inland
                      conditions:
                      > > 1. Folding: I had terrible problems with the kite folding in a
                      brief
                      > > lull and then reopening right before the kite hit the water. This
                      > > mades for some brutal body drags (resulting in several broken
                      board
                      > > leashes and a broken kite line).
                      >
                      > All kites would collapse in very gusty wind (both light or strong
                      > wind). When a foil collapse, it folds itself and you can pull on
                      the
                      > lines (walk or swim backward) to get it back to shape. When an
                      > inflatable collapse it simply falls and there is NOTHING you can do
                      > about it. In its first few weeks of use, I got my AR5 5.5 fall
                      down in
                      > a pile of rocks and damage the front leading edge. I still have
                      numerous
                      > tapes on the front leading edge of my AR5 5.5 to remind me of that
                      > event.
                      >
                      > Since then I have learned how to deal with the situation. Kites
                      will
                      > collapse in gusty wind if you fly them using only the front lines
                      (both
                      > for foils and inflatables). By keeping some tension on the back
                      lines,
                      > you can prevent them from collapsing in gusty wind.
                      >
                      > > 2. Long lulls - foils take on water after a few minutes on the
                      > > water. Inflatables rule in this dept.
                      >
                      > That's what I used to believe but changed my belief after using the
                      New
                      > Wave and also the JOJO Rage yesterday. A modern foil floats longer
                      and
                      > relaunch easier in very little wind that unless the long lulls is
                      less
                      > than 5 knots it should not be a problem relaunching them (I had
                      numerous
                      > crashes with the New Wave and the JOJO Rage and so far be able to
                      > relaunch them with minimum effort)
                      >
                      > Furthermore, I may start using wakeboard and binding in the future
                      after
                      > seeing Luke Stanek from JOJO kite doing
                      > the following:
                      > 1- Launch the kite
                      > 2- Walk into shallow water (or drag into deep water)
                      > 3- Active the safety leash to land the kite straight down wind
                      > 4- Get into the binding with "both hands"
                      > 5- Grab the bar, launch the kite easily and start sailing
                      >
                      > Of all the methods of getting into the binding, this is the only
                      one I
                      > think is "civilized", safe enough and may "lure" me into using it.
                      >
                      > P.S., I made some of the highest jumps around here yesterday with
                      the
                      > JOJO Rage 4.0 m2 (very gusty wind, no depower rig setup). A high
                      > performance foil for medium and high wind will definitely be part
                      of my
                      > kite quiver in the future.
                      >
                      > Hung.
                    • Hung Vu
                      Kenny, ... Light wind is where foils excel as in light wind you want a very high performance kite and a very light kite. So far only foils and C-Quad/Bean can
                      Message 10 of 21 , Jul 5, 2001
                        Kenny,

                        > Let's go back to what I was talking about. I agree that foils make
                        > sense in moderate/strong winds, but I am not so sure about light wind
                        > conditions.

                        Light wind is where foils excel as in light wind you want a very high
                        performance kite and a very light kite. So far only foils and
                        C-Quad/Bean can deliver that type of characteristics.

                        I have been using the XXXL for more than 2 years (for both kitesurfing
                        and kiteskiing) and the Concept Air 12.5 and never have any problem with
                        them. Actually, the only "wish" I have is that they should be higher
                        performance and lighter (especially for the Concept air 12.5 due to its
                        use in even lighter wind)

                        > In fact, I am considering buying a couple small foils
                        > that I can use for kite surfing and kite skiing. Hung, do you
                        > recommend the JoJo? If so, why?

                        The only two medium/strong wind foils I ever flown are the New Wave 4.9
                        and the Jojo Rage 4.0 . So far they both work well. The Jojo Rage is a
                        higher performance one. Concept Air used to make the EX's Wave which is
                        of the same performance caliber as the Jojo Rage.

                        The reason I think medium/strong wind foil is of appeal for me is my
                        desire of jumping higher and the ability of using the same kite for both
                        kitesurfing and kiteskiing.

                        > It is not such a big deal when your small kite folds. However, when
                        > it happens on a 3-line 9.3 New Wave and the kite finally decides to
                        > respond and open up 5 feet above the water with the lines twisted a
                        > couple times - WATCH OUT!!! You are going to get seriously dragged.

                        If you use handle, just play with the brake lines to stall the kite. If
                        you use bar, pull on the center line to keep the kite under control.
                        It's easier to keep the kite under control and it fly whenever you are
                        ready. If worse come to worse, just drop the bar, you can relaunch the
                        kite later on with more control.

                        > My 9.3 New Wave did take on water during lulls of more than a few
                        > minutes and would not relaunch.

                        It's true that if you have the lulls less than 5 knots for a few
                        minutes, most foils would absorb so much water and won't relaunch. If
                        you go out in such light wind and want the ability to relaunch more
                        reliable, foils with inflatable cells such as the Mosquito and the Jojo
                        Wet is better.

                        I always use opened cell foils for light wind due to the closed cell
                        effect which make closed-cell foil not as good as opened cell foil in
                        light and gusty wind.

                        Hung.
                      • pault-colston
                        you are all talking about 9.3 and 12.5 concept air i have a 6.3 new wave which a fantasic kite. now need a light wind kite but hear anything bigger is not to
                        Message 11 of 21 , Jul 5, 2001
                          you are all talking about 9.3 and 12.5 concept air i have a 6.3 new wave
                          which a fantasic kite. now need a light wind kite but hear anything bigger
                          is not to the same standard

                          ----------
                          >From: Hung Vu <hungvu@...>
                          >To: ksurfschool@yahoogroups.com
                          >Subject: Re: [ksurfschool] Re: Foils and gusty wind NOT A myth!
                          >Date: Fri, Jul 6, 2001, 3:24 am
                          >

                          > Kenny,
                          >
                          >> Let's go back to what I was talking about. I agree that foils make
                          >> sense in moderate/strong winds, but I am not so sure about light wind
                          >> conditions.
                          >
                          > Light wind is where foils excel as in light wind you want a very high
                          > performance kite and a very light kite. So far only foils and
                          > C-Quad/Bean can deliver that type of characteristics.
                          >
                          > I have been using the XXXL for more than 2 years (for both kitesurfing
                          > and kiteskiing) and the Concept Air 12.5 and never have any problem with
                          > them. Actually, the only "wish" I have is that they should be higher
                          > performance and lighter (especially for the Concept air 12.5 due to its
                          > use in even lighter wind)
                          >
                          >> In fact, I am considering buying a couple small foils
                          >> that I can use for kite surfing and kite skiing. Hung, do you
                          >> recommend the JoJo? If so, why?
                          >
                          > The only two medium/strong wind foils I ever flown are the New Wave 4.9
                          > and the Jojo Rage 4.0 . So far they both work well. The Jojo Rage is a
                          > higher performance one. Concept Air used to make the EX's Wave which is
                          > of the same performance caliber as the Jojo Rage.
                          >
                          > The reason I think medium/strong wind foil is of appeal for me is my
                          > desire of jumping higher and the ability of using the same kite for both
                          > kitesurfing and kiteskiing.
                          >
                          >> It is not such a big deal when your small kite folds. However, when
                          >> it happens on a 3-line 9.3 New Wave and the kite finally decides to
                          >> respond and open up 5 feet above the water with the lines twisted a
                          >> couple times - WATCH OUT!!! You are going to get seriously dragged.
                          >
                          > If you use handle, just play with the brake lines to stall the kite. If
                          > you use bar, pull on the center line to keep the kite under control.
                          > It's easier to keep the kite under control and it fly whenever you are
                          > ready. If worse come to worse, just drop the bar, you can relaunch the
                          > kite later on with more control.
                          >
                          >> My 9.3 New Wave did take on water during lulls of more than a few
                          >> minutes and would not relaunch.
                          >
                          > It's true that if you have the lulls less than 5 knots for a few
                          > minutes, most foils would absorb so much water and won't relaunch. If
                          > you go out in such light wind and want the ability to relaunch more
                          > reliable, foils with inflatable cells such as the Mosquito and the Jojo
                          > Wet is better.
                          >
                          > I always use opened cell foils for light wind due to the closed cell
                          > effect which make closed-cell foil not as good as opened cell foil in
                          > light and gusty wind.
                          >
                          > Hung.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                          >
                          >
                        • Mel
                          ... I know it doesn t really come under the foil classification we re discussing, but I had an ARC on the water for quite a while (a few minutes) & it
                          Message 12 of 21 , Jul 6, 2001
                            Hung Vu <hungvu@...> wrote:

                            > It's true that if you have the lulls less than 5 knots for a few
                            > minutes, most foils would absorb so much water and won't relaunch. If
                            > you go out in such light wind and want the ability to relaunch more
                            > reliable, foils with inflatable cells such as the Mosquito and the Jojo
                            > Wet is better.

                            I know it doesn't really come under the "foil" classification we're
                            discussing, but I had an ARC on the water for quite a while (a few minutes)
                            & it relaunched easily in a 5 knot puff.

                            Speaking of ARCs, stacking them for light wind performance seems to be
                            getting increasingly popular. I had to have it explained to me like this
                            before I finally understood the maneuverability issue: You're steering the
                            little kite on the bottom. IT pulls the bigger, upper kite with it, from
                            RIGHT THERE (faster response, due to 7m lines). Overall what happens is it
                            steers quicker than the big kite by itself !!

                            Mel
                          • Hung Vu
                            ... I am not sure understand why an ARC, being heavier, would relaunch and a high performance foil would not in the same condition... Hung.
                            Message 13 of 21 , Jul 6, 2001
                              Mel wrote:
                              > > It's true that if you have the lulls less than 5 knots for a few
                              > > minutes, most foils would absorb so much water and won't relaunch. If
                              > > you go out in such light wind and want the ability to relaunch more
                              > > reliable, foils with inflatable cells such as the Mosquito and the Jojo
                              > > Wet is better.
                              >
                              > I know it doesn't really come under the "foil" classification we're
                              > discussing, but I had an ARC on the water for quite a while (a few minutes)
                              > & it relaunched easily in a 5 knot puff.

                              I am not sure understand why an ARC, being heavier, would relaunch and a
                              high performance foil would not in the same condition...

                              Hung.
                            • Doug Adams (E-mail)
                              IMHO arcs launch so well because the angle of attack can be varied. Just don t turn them inside out treating them like an inflatable while lying on the water!
                              Message 14 of 21 , Jul 6, 2001
                                IMHO arcs launch so well because the angle of attack can be varied. Just
                                don't turn them inside out treating them like an inflatable while lying on
                                the water! A foil launching leading edge up downwind has tons of drag and
                                very little lift because the bridal sets the AOA at nearly 90 degrees
                                relative the wind. My experience is foils launch much better backward,
                                flying on their brakes, from downwind.

                                Doug

                                -----Original Message-----
                                From: Mel [mailto:kitebord@...]
                                Sent: Friday, July 06, 2001 9:42 PM
                                To: ksurfschool@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: Re: [ksurfschool] Re: Foils and gusty wind NOT A myth!


                                Hung Vu <hungvu@...> wrote:

                                > I am not sure understand why an ARC, being heavier, would relaunch and a
                                > high performance foil would not in the same condition...

                                Could be any of a number of factors:
                                No bridle (I'm sure when wet it adds more weight than you'd think, just like
                                it adds more drag than you'd think).
                                Tip battens (added weight, but maybe they help somehow).
                                General shape (maybe the arched shape helps somehow).
                                Flexibility of shape without bridles (don't know how that would help, but it
                                might).
                                The fact that mine was practically brand new at the time might be a factor.

                                On the other hand, since I only tried it once, maybe I was just lucky. It
                                seems the consensus is you never get good at relaunching an ARC because it's
                                so rare to crash them. Anybody else have extremely good success relaunching
                                ARCs in light winds?

                                Mel




                                Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                              • Mel
                                ... Could be any of a number of factors: No bridle (I m sure when wet it adds more weight than you d think, just like it adds more drag than you d think). Tip
                                Message 15 of 21 , Jul 6, 2001
                                  Hung Vu <hungvu@...> wrote:

                                  > I am not sure understand why an ARC, being heavier, would relaunch and a
                                  > high performance foil would not in the same condition...

                                  Could be any of a number of factors:
                                  No bridle (I'm sure when wet it adds more weight than you'd think, just like
                                  it adds more drag than you'd think).
                                  Tip battens (added weight, but maybe they help somehow).
                                  General shape (maybe the arched shape helps somehow).
                                  Flexibility of shape without bridles (don't know how that would help, but it
                                  might).
                                  The fact that mine was practically brand new at the time might be a factor.

                                  On the other hand, since I only tried it once, maybe I was just lucky. It
                                  seems the consensus is you never get good at relaunching an ARC because it's
                                  so rare to crash them. Anybody else have extremely good success relaunching
                                  ARCs in light winds?

                                  Mel
                                • Mel
                                  ... It s supposed to be possible to do that with an ARC too, but I had to intentionally crash it LE down to try it, & by the time I d adjusted my center strap
                                  Message 16 of 21 , Jul 6, 2001
                                    Doug Adams (E-mail) <rcpilot@...> wrote:

                                    >My experience is foils launch much better backward,
                                    > flying on their brakes, from downwind.

                                    It's supposed to be possible to do that with an ARC too, but I had to
                                    intentionally crash it LE down to try it, & by the time I'd adjusted my
                                    center strap all the way out the darn thing was airborne again! In other
                                    words, if you really want to try it, make sure you adjust your strap all the
                                    way out BEFORE you "land" it nose down, or it may relaunch on its own before
                                    you get a chance to try the reverse launch.

                                    Mel
                                  • Hung Vu
                                    Actually, the issue Kenny raised is that after staying in the water during a lull for a while (let s say 10 minutes of less than 5 knots), most closed-cells
                                    Message 17 of 21 , Jul 7, 2001
                                      Actually, the issue Kenny raised is that after staying in the water
                                      during a lull for a while (let's say 10 minutes of less than 5 knots),
                                      most closed-cells foil or Arc would absorb so much water that would
                                      render them un-relauncheable when the wind pick up. This is more to do
                                      with the ability of the kite keeping the water out. I notice that
                                      modern closed cell foils float better and are constructed better allow
                                      them to stay on the water longer.

                                      I had only one experience with the Arc kiteskiing in the winter in very
                                      light wind. We could relaunch foil easily (both LE up and LE down) and
                                      could not relaunch the Arc in that light wind (LE down).

                                      P.S., I am very intrigued about the novelty of the Arc and always try to
                                      think of a reason to buy one. I select inflatable for its reliable
                                      water relaunch and decent performance; I select a foil for higher
                                      performance/higher jump and light wind. Can someone shred a light why
                                      would I buy/try an Arc (stacking for light wind is not it as it sounds
                                      pretty complex and difficult)

                                      Hung.

                                      Mel wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Hung Vu <hungvu@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > > I am not sure understand why an ARC, being heavier, would relaunch and a
                                      > > high performance foil would not in the same condition...
                                      >
                                      > Could be any of a number of factors:
                                      > No bridle (I'm sure when wet it adds more weight than you'd think, just like
                                      > it adds more drag than you'd think).
                                      > Tip battens (added weight, but maybe they help somehow).
                                      > General shape (maybe the arched shape helps somehow).
                                      > Flexibility of shape without bridles (don't know how that would help, but it
                                      > might).
                                      > The fact that mine was practically brand new at the time might be a factor.
                                      >
                                      > On the other hand, since I only tried it once, maybe I was just lucky. It
                                      > seems the consensus is you never get good at relaunching an ARC because it's
                                      > so rare to crash them. Anybody else have extremely good success relaunching
                                      > ARCs in light winds?
                                      >
                                      > Mel
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
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