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Re: [ksurfschool] Re: wake vs. directional round 3 :)

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  • Mel
    Day 3 on LiteWave 169. Spinning the board from toe side back to heel side after coming out of a toe turn is actually pretty easy IF powered up enough to plane
    Message 1 of 13 , Jun 7, 2001
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      Day 3 on LiteWave 169.

      Spinning the board from toe side back to heel side after coming out of a toe
      turn is actually pretty easy IF powered up enough to plane with the kite
      high, OR if barely powered up enough to plane at all. The other trick I
      learned is to initiate the spin HARD, & then back off to prevent
      over-rotation.

      I still found it harder to do a really good toe carve, partly because of the
      difficulty in exiting pointing upwind* (reduces carving arc by 30 degrees or
      so), AND because of lateral (& possibly longitudinal) back foot placement,
      although that may be helped by a narrower board & shorter, rounder, rockered
      toe rail.
      *due to the trim line wrapping around my side from its attachment point on
      the spreader.

      While riding, I began to wonder why I'm putting all this thought & effort
      into trying to get toe turns to be as good as those on a directional. Not
      better, just equal, so why bother? Just so I can also do heel turns? I
      wonder about jumping too, since I really like getting high & landing "dry",
      but haven't had the conditions for that yet on the twin tip.

      I do like being able to ride right over kelp & buoy lines, and come closer
      to shore before dismounting*, & again, I do like not having to put my new
      back foot in the strap again, but I REALLY like those directional toe turns.
      *right ONTO shore, in the case of the LiteWave.

      Mel
    • fernmanus@yahoo.com
      Mel, I cannot compare the carving turn on a directional to a bidirectional since I never learned to jibe on a directional. However, it sounds like that aspect
      Message 2 of 13 , Jun 8, 2001
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        Mel,

        I cannot compare the carving turn on a directional to a bidirectional
        since I never learned to jibe on a directional. However, it sounds
        like that aspect of kite surfing is very important to you.

        I personally do not worry much about jibing. I live in an area where
        the wind is extemely gusty. This means that jibes are often
        unpredictable. So, I worry more about a board that can edge well and
        is still good during the lulls. I found that I could load up better
        on the Wake-N-Style than a directional for jumping.

        I think that Wake-N-Style feels so smooth because of the bottom
        surface of the board and the small rails as well as the flexibility
        of the board. The RRD is also a fun board, but I don't think it is
        nearly as durable as the Wake-N-Style. Lately, I have been riding
        more on a LF Picklefork. That board is a riot if you have plenty of
        power. I like a smaller board while in the air as well.

        Kenny


        --- In ksurfschool@y..., Mel <kitebord@p...> wrote:
        > Day 3 on LiteWave 169.
        >
        > Spinning the board from toe side back to heel side after coming out
        of a toe
        > turn is actually pretty easy IF powered up enough to plane with the
        kite
        > high, OR if barely powered up enough to plane at all. The other
        trick I
        > learned is to initiate the spin HARD, & then back off to prevent
        > over-rotation.
        >
        > I still found it harder to do a really good toe carve, partly
        because of the
        > difficulty in exiting pointing upwind* (reduces carving arc by 30
        degrees or
        > so), AND because of lateral (& possibly longitudinal) back foot
        placement,
        > although that may be helped by a narrower board & shorter, rounder,
        rockered
        > toe rail.
        > *due to the trim line wrapping around my side from its attachment
        point on
        > the spreader.
        >
        > While riding, I began to wonder why I'm putting all this thought &
        effort
        > into trying to get toe turns to be as good as those on a
        directional. Not
        > better, just equal, so why bother? Just so I can also do heel
        turns? I
        > wonder about jumping too, since I really like getting high &
        landing "dry",
        > but haven't had the conditions for that yet on the twin tip.
        >
        > I do like being able to ride right over kelp & buoy lines, and come
        closer
        > to shore before dismounting*, & again, I do like not having to put
        my new
        > back foot in the strap again, but I REALLY like those directional
        toe turns.
        > *right ONTO shore, in the case of the LiteWave.
        >
        > Mel
      • Mel
        ... It IS very important. Ripping through a 240 degree arc, fully banked & dragging my hand with my elbow bent (even with my legs straight) is one of my
        Message 3 of 13 , Jun 8, 2001
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          <fernmanus@...> wrote:

          > I cannot compare the carving turn on a directional to a bidirectional ...
          > ...it sounds like that aspect of kite surfing is very important to you.

          It IS very important. Ripping through a 240 degree arc, fully banked &
          dragging my hand with my elbow bent (even with my legs straight) is one of
          my favorite things about kiteboarding. Maybe somebody else on this group
          can give a comparison.

          > I live in an area where
          > the wind is extemely gusty.

          Me too. iwindsurf readings like 11-28 are common.

          > This means that jibes are often
          > unpredictable.

          Yeah, but you can still nail a few, & it's GREAT. I think you're really
          missing out.

          > So, I worry more about a board that can edge well

          If you're needing the edging for gusts, what kind of kite contol system do
          you have?

          > and is still good during the lulls.

          Isn't the consensus that a directional is better in the lulls? I guess you
          could say I've chosen a kite (or at least it's 4-line/trim loop control
          system) for the gusts. Maybe you've chosen the board to handle the gusts
          instead of the kite/control system.

          > I found that I could load up better
          > on the Wake-N-Style than a directional for jumping. ...
          > ... I like a smaller board while in the air as well.

          Okay, so jumping may be an advantage of twintips over directionals. I like
          to jump too!

          > I think that Wake-N-Style feels so smooth because of the bottom
          > surface of the board

          Anything specific about the bottom surface? Rocker, outline, vee (or lack
          of it), or just some magical combination? I'd like to know what you think
          it is, in case I don't get to demo ride a smaller LiteWave, or RRD 150.
          "Porpoising" (nose bounce) at high speed is the primary reason I'm
          considering a new board.

          > The RRD is also a fun board, but I don't think it is
          > nearly as durable as the Wake-N-Style.

          I mentioned riding onto the beach is nice, but I really don't need to, since
          I can't do that now with my Fanatic directional, so if the RRD 150 performs
          well on the water I won't care about durability THAT much. The reason I
          mention the RRD is because it's got that short, curved, rockered toe side,
          which might improve the toe turns without compromising straight line or
          jumping performance.

          Mel
        • fernmanus@yahoo.com
          Mel, Don t get me wrong. I like a good jibe, but it is not a big issue with me. There are some really fun jibes that you can do on a bidirectional. I use
          Message 4 of 13 , Jun 11, 2001
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            Mel,

            Don't get me wrong. I like a good jibe, but it is not a big issue
            with me. There are some really fun jibes that you can do on a
            bidirectional.

            I use both the edge of the board and a 4 line system for edging. I
            primarily fly big kites (Naish 15.5 or Wipika 11.8 and larger). In
            gusty conditions you need all of the power control you can find when
            using a large kite.

            I am not exactly sure what makes the 169 Lightwave such a great
            board. I think it is a combination of the smooth surface on the
            bottom of the board and small fins. It is also more forgiving
            because of its size. However, I would like to try the Lightwave in a
            shorter length. I prefer my LF 142 Picklefork when jumping because
            it is less awkward in the air.

            I have tried the RRD and I can tell you that the Lightwave is more
            fun and stable to ride toe side. I think durability is also a big
            issue even if you don't ride up on the beach. You always have the
            issue of transporting the board around. Boards sometimes get knocked
            over and you really need a durable board if you plan to travel.

            Kenny

            --- In ksurfschool@y..., Mel <kitebord@p...> wrote:
            > <fernmanus@y...> wrote:
            >
            > > I cannot compare the carving turn on a directional to a
            bidirectional ...
            > > ...it sounds like that aspect of kite surfing is very important
            to you.
            >
            > It IS very important. Ripping through a 240 degree arc, fully
            banked &
            > dragging my hand with my elbow bent (even with my legs straight) is
            one of
            > my favorite things about kiteboarding. Maybe somebody else on this
            group
            > can give a comparison.
            >
            > > I live in an area where
            > > the wind is extemely gusty.
            >
            > Me too. iwindsurf readings like 11-28 are common.
            >
            > > This means that jibes are often
            > > unpredictable.
            >
            > Yeah, but you can still nail a few, & it's GREAT. I think you're
            really
            > missing out.
            >
            > > So, I worry more about a board that can edge well
            >
            > If you're needing the edging for gusts, what kind of kite contol
            system do
            > you have?
            >
            > > and is still good during the lulls.
            >
            > Isn't the consensus that a directional is better in the lulls? I
            guess you
            > could say I've chosen a kite (or at least it's 4-line/trim loop
            control
            > system) for the gusts. Maybe you've chosen the board to handle the
            gusts
            > instead of the kite/control system.
            >
            > > I found that I could load up better
            > > on the Wake-N-Style than a directional for jumping. ...
            > > ... I like a smaller board while in the air as well.
            >
            > Okay, so jumping may be an advantage of twintips over
            directionals. I like
            > to jump too!
            >
            > > I think that Wake-N-Style feels so smooth because of the bottom
            > > surface of the board
            >
            > Anything specific about the bottom surface? Rocker, outline, vee
            (or lack
            > of it), or just some magical combination? I'd like to know what
            you think
            > it is, in case I don't get to demo ride a smaller LiteWave, or RRD
            150.
            > "Porpoising" (nose bounce) at high speed is the primary reason I'm
            > considering a new board.
            >
            > > The RRD is also a fun board, but I don't think it is
            > > nearly as durable as the Wake-N-Style.
            >
            > I mentioned riding onto the beach is nice, but I really don't need
            to, since
            > I can't do that now with my Fanatic directional, so if the RRD 150
            performs
            > well on the water I won't care about durability THAT much. The
            reason I
            > mention the RRD is because it's got that short, curved, rockered
            toe side,
            > which might improve the toe turns without compromising straight
            line or
            > jumping performance.
            >
            > Mel
          • Mel
            ... Whoops! I just read my quote. I meant to say ripping 240 degree arcs is important TO ME. ... Yes. Heel turns, for example, and it does look cool to spin
            Message 5 of 13 , Jun 11, 2001
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              <fernmanus@...> wrote:

              > Don't get me wrong. I like a good jibe, but it is not a big issue
              > with me.

              Whoops! I just read my quote. I meant to say ripping 240 degree arcs is
              important TO ME.

              > There are some really fun jibes that you can do on a
              > bidirectional.

              Yes. Heel turns, for example, and it does look cool to spin the board after
              exiting (looks to the windsurfers like a difficult trick, but is really
              quite easy), or throw up a huge wall of spray by sliding on the heel or toe
              edge.

              > I am not exactly sure what makes the 169 Lightwave such a great
              > board. I think it is a combination of the smooth surface on the
              > bottom of the board and small fins.

              Aren't those characteristics normal on bidirectional boards? The RRDs both
              have those features. The Naish 140 has some channels, maybe that's what you
              mean.

              > It is also more forgiving
              > because of its size. However, I would like to try the Lightwave in a
              > shorter length.

              Me too.

              > I prefer my LF 142 Picklefork when jumping because
              > it is less awkward in the air.

              I think that makes nearly no difference for me because the orientation of
              the board remains nearly constant (no spinning or looping).

              > I think durability is also a big
              > issue even if you don't ride up on the beach. You always have the
              > issue of transporting the board around.

              I only meant that if I can take care of an epoxy sandwich directional, an
              epoxy sandwich bidirectional shouldn't be a problem.

              Mel
            • fernmanus@yahoo.com
              Mel, Yeah, you can do some cool jibes on a bidirectional that are really easy. I like to slide out the front end of the board and then do a big low carving
              Message 6 of 13 , Jun 11, 2001
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                Mel,

                Yeah, you can do some cool jibes on a bidirectional that are really
                easy. I like to slide out the front end of the board and then do a
                big low carving jibe. You can easily lay one arm out across the
                water while doing this move.

                The bottom surface of the RRD is different than the LW. The LW has a
                P-Tex surface used on most snow boards and skis (makes me wonder if
                waxing the board might make it even better). I have seen other
                bidirectionals with this type of surface, but I haven't tried them
                yet. I also use smaller fins on my LW than the ones that come
                standard on the RRD. Whatever board you choose, you do want to pay
                close attention to the fin size on a bidirectional. Deeper fins
                allow the board to track better, but it also makes it more difficult
                to release the board to do jibes, go toeside, etc. I kind of like
                the loose feeling of the LW. I tried a Manta bidirectional
                recently. The board feels like it is on rails which is great if you
                are super-powered up, but not so fun when you want to do a little
                free-style.

                Durability is important to me after I had an epoxy board damaged by
                Delta Airlines. I have also ridden my board in water than was only
                an inch deep and scraped the board along the bottom of the lake.
                Sounds stupid, but it was a blast to ride in perfectly flat shallow
                water. Of couse, it would have been very painful if I was pitched
                forward.

                Kenny

                --- In ksurfschool@y..., Mel <kitebord@p...> wrote:
                > <fernmanus@y...> wrote:
                >
                > > Don't get me wrong. I like a good jibe, but it is not a big issue
                > > with me.
                >
                > Whoops! I just read my quote. I meant to say ripping 240 degree
                arcs is
                > important TO ME.
                >
                > > There are some really fun jibes that you can do on a
                > > bidirectional.
                >
                > Yes. Heel turns, for example, and it does look cool to spin the
                board after
                > exiting (looks to the windsurfers like a difficult trick, but is
                really
                > quite easy), or throw up a huge wall of spray by sliding on the
                heel or toe
                > edge.
                >
                > > I am not exactly sure what makes the 169 Lightwave such a great
                > > board. I think it is a combination of the smooth surface on the
                > > bottom of the board and small fins.
                >
                > Aren't those characteristics normal on bidirectional boards? The
                RRDs both
                > have those features. The Naish 140 has some channels, maybe that's
                what you
                > mean.
                >
                > > It is also more forgiving
                > > because of its size. However, I would like to try the Lightwave
                in a
                > > shorter length.
                >
                > Me too.
                >
                > > I prefer my LF 142 Picklefork when jumping because
                > > it is less awkward in the air.
                >
                > I think that makes nearly no difference for me because the
                orientation of
                > the board remains nearly constant (no spinning or looping).
                >
                > > I think durability is also a big
                > > issue even if you don't ride up on the beach. You always have the
                > > issue of transporting the board around.
                >
                > I only meant that if I can take care of an epoxy sandwich
                directional, an
                > epoxy sandwich bidirectional shouldn't be a problem.
                >
                > Mel
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