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Re: [ksurfschool] Re: wake vs. directional round 3 :)

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  • Mel
    ... I ve got 4 of them right here & plan to view them as soon as I m done with this! (unless the wind picks up). Yesterday (day 2 on LightWave Wake-N-Style
    Message 1 of 13 , Jun 7, 2001
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      <fernmanus@...> wrote:

      > There are a lot of variations of the jibe that are possible on a
      > bidirectional board. Watching the videos is a good idea.

      I've got 4 of them right here & plan to view them as soon as I'm done with
      this! (unless the wind picks up).

      Yesterday (day 2 on LightWave Wake-N-Style 169) conditions were ideal for
      jibing, & I was trying to see how big an arc I could carve, so I'd round up
      into the wind & spin the tail as far towards the kite as possible (made it
      wall past 90 degrees, but never to 180 - maybe 135) while whiping the kite
      back. The most I could get was about HALF as much carving arc as on my
      directional, so I tried doing a toe turn & just riding off toeside. That
      felt OKAY, but still not as good as my directional, partly I THINK because
      the rear foot placement isn't ideal for a good toe carve, & partly because I
      couldn't carve all the way through to pointing upwind on the new direction
      (simply because I couldn't really point with the kite pulling off the front
      side of my body from the trim line wrapped around me from the spreader).
      That same last factor prevented a really long arc on the following heel turn
      (couldn't enter the turn pointing). I must admit that it was kind of cool
      to never have to struggle to get my new back foot in after jibing (without
      catching the wake), & the novelty of heel turns is a nice alternative, but
      that's possible on directionals too (switch feet first) although I've never
      attempted it.

      > Yes, the Wake-N-Style has a smooth feel, not all other bidirectionals feel
      as smooth.

      For example....? (if I get the carving to work, I may be considering a
      smaller LightWave or RRD 150 Assym.) I wonder if it's the board's flexible
      construction.

      > I also fly the kite low when I am well-powered, but when I am really
      > overpowered and I am using a large kite this is not always possible.
      > Sometimes it is literally impossible to hold an edge.

      I guess that's an advantage of a directional : You've more fin area to
      push against, even if you can't get the rail to hold.

      Mel
    • Mel
      Day 3 on LiteWave 169. Spinning the board from toe side back to heel side after coming out of a toe turn is actually pretty easy IF powered up enough to plane
      Message 2 of 13 , Jun 7, 2001
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        Day 3 on LiteWave 169.

        Spinning the board from toe side back to heel side after coming out of a toe
        turn is actually pretty easy IF powered up enough to plane with the kite
        high, OR if barely powered up enough to plane at all. The other trick I
        learned is to initiate the spin HARD, & then back off to prevent
        over-rotation.

        I still found it harder to do a really good toe carve, partly because of the
        difficulty in exiting pointing upwind* (reduces carving arc by 30 degrees or
        so), AND because of lateral (& possibly longitudinal) back foot placement,
        although that may be helped by a narrower board & shorter, rounder, rockered
        toe rail.
        *due to the trim line wrapping around my side from its attachment point on
        the spreader.

        While riding, I began to wonder why I'm putting all this thought & effort
        into trying to get toe turns to be as good as those on a directional. Not
        better, just equal, so why bother? Just so I can also do heel turns? I
        wonder about jumping too, since I really like getting high & landing "dry",
        but haven't had the conditions for that yet on the twin tip.

        I do like being able to ride right over kelp & buoy lines, and come closer
        to shore before dismounting*, & again, I do like not having to put my new
        back foot in the strap again, but I REALLY like those directional toe turns.
        *right ONTO shore, in the case of the LiteWave.

        Mel
      • fernmanus@yahoo.com
        Mel, I cannot compare the carving turn on a directional to a bidirectional since I never learned to jibe on a directional. However, it sounds like that aspect
        Message 3 of 13 , Jun 8, 2001
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          Mel,

          I cannot compare the carving turn on a directional to a bidirectional
          since I never learned to jibe on a directional. However, it sounds
          like that aspect of kite surfing is very important to you.

          I personally do not worry much about jibing. I live in an area where
          the wind is extemely gusty. This means that jibes are often
          unpredictable. So, I worry more about a board that can edge well and
          is still good during the lulls. I found that I could load up better
          on the Wake-N-Style than a directional for jumping.

          I think that Wake-N-Style feels so smooth because of the bottom
          surface of the board and the small rails as well as the flexibility
          of the board. The RRD is also a fun board, but I don't think it is
          nearly as durable as the Wake-N-Style. Lately, I have been riding
          more on a LF Picklefork. That board is a riot if you have plenty of
          power. I like a smaller board while in the air as well.

          Kenny


          --- In ksurfschool@y..., Mel <kitebord@p...> wrote:
          > Day 3 on LiteWave 169.
          >
          > Spinning the board from toe side back to heel side after coming out
          of a toe
          > turn is actually pretty easy IF powered up enough to plane with the
          kite
          > high, OR if barely powered up enough to plane at all. The other
          trick I
          > learned is to initiate the spin HARD, & then back off to prevent
          > over-rotation.
          >
          > I still found it harder to do a really good toe carve, partly
          because of the
          > difficulty in exiting pointing upwind* (reduces carving arc by 30
          degrees or
          > so), AND because of lateral (& possibly longitudinal) back foot
          placement,
          > although that may be helped by a narrower board & shorter, rounder,
          rockered
          > toe rail.
          > *due to the trim line wrapping around my side from its attachment
          point on
          > the spreader.
          >
          > While riding, I began to wonder why I'm putting all this thought &
          effort
          > into trying to get toe turns to be as good as those on a
          directional. Not
          > better, just equal, so why bother? Just so I can also do heel
          turns? I
          > wonder about jumping too, since I really like getting high &
          landing "dry",
          > but haven't had the conditions for that yet on the twin tip.
          >
          > I do like being able to ride right over kelp & buoy lines, and come
          closer
          > to shore before dismounting*, & again, I do like not having to put
          my new
          > back foot in the strap again, but I REALLY like those directional
          toe turns.
          > *right ONTO shore, in the case of the LiteWave.
          >
          > Mel
        • Mel
          ... It IS very important. Ripping through a 240 degree arc, fully banked & dragging my hand with my elbow bent (even with my legs straight) is one of my
          Message 4 of 13 , Jun 8, 2001
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            <fernmanus@...> wrote:

            > I cannot compare the carving turn on a directional to a bidirectional ...
            > ...it sounds like that aspect of kite surfing is very important to you.

            It IS very important. Ripping through a 240 degree arc, fully banked &
            dragging my hand with my elbow bent (even with my legs straight) is one of
            my favorite things about kiteboarding. Maybe somebody else on this group
            can give a comparison.

            > I live in an area where
            > the wind is extemely gusty.

            Me too. iwindsurf readings like 11-28 are common.

            > This means that jibes are often
            > unpredictable.

            Yeah, but you can still nail a few, & it's GREAT. I think you're really
            missing out.

            > So, I worry more about a board that can edge well

            If you're needing the edging for gusts, what kind of kite contol system do
            you have?

            > and is still good during the lulls.

            Isn't the consensus that a directional is better in the lulls? I guess you
            could say I've chosen a kite (or at least it's 4-line/trim loop control
            system) for the gusts. Maybe you've chosen the board to handle the gusts
            instead of the kite/control system.

            > I found that I could load up better
            > on the Wake-N-Style than a directional for jumping. ...
            > ... I like a smaller board while in the air as well.

            Okay, so jumping may be an advantage of twintips over directionals. I like
            to jump too!

            > I think that Wake-N-Style feels so smooth because of the bottom
            > surface of the board

            Anything specific about the bottom surface? Rocker, outline, vee (or lack
            of it), or just some magical combination? I'd like to know what you think
            it is, in case I don't get to demo ride a smaller LiteWave, or RRD 150.
            "Porpoising" (nose bounce) at high speed is the primary reason I'm
            considering a new board.

            > The RRD is also a fun board, but I don't think it is
            > nearly as durable as the Wake-N-Style.

            I mentioned riding onto the beach is nice, but I really don't need to, since
            I can't do that now with my Fanatic directional, so if the RRD 150 performs
            well on the water I won't care about durability THAT much. The reason I
            mention the RRD is because it's got that short, curved, rockered toe side,
            which might improve the toe turns without compromising straight line or
            jumping performance.

            Mel
          • fernmanus@yahoo.com
            Mel, Don t get me wrong. I like a good jibe, but it is not a big issue with me. There are some really fun jibes that you can do on a bidirectional. I use
            Message 5 of 13 , Jun 11, 2001
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              Mel,

              Don't get me wrong. I like a good jibe, but it is not a big issue
              with me. There are some really fun jibes that you can do on a
              bidirectional.

              I use both the edge of the board and a 4 line system for edging. I
              primarily fly big kites (Naish 15.5 or Wipika 11.8 and larger). In
              gusty conditions you need all of the power control you can find when
              using a large kite.

              I am not exactly sure what makes the 169 Lightwave such a great
              board. I think it is a combination of the smooth surface on the
              bottom of the board and small fins. It is also more forgiving
              because of its size. However, I would like to try the Lightwave in a
              shorter length. I prefer my LF 142 Picklefork when jumping because
              it is less awkward in the air.

              I have tried the RRD and I can tell you that the Lightwave is more
              fun and stable to ride toe side. I think durability is also a big
              issue even if you don't ride up on the beach. You always have the
              issue of transporting the board around. Boards sometimes get knocked
              over and you really need a durable board if you plan to travel.

              Kenny

              --- In ksurfschool@y..., Mel <kitebord@p...> wrote:
              > <fernmanus@y...> wrote:
              >
              > > I cannot compare the carving turn on a directional to a
              bidirectional ...
              > > ...it sounds like that aspect of kite surfing is very important
              to you.
              >
              > It IS very important. Ripping through a 240 degree arc, fully
              banked &
              > dragging my hand with my elbow bent (even with my legs straight) is
              one of
              > my favorite things about kiteboarding. Maybe somebody else on this
              group
              > can give a comparison.
              >
              > > I live in an area where
              > > the wind is extemely gusty.
              >
              > Me too. iwindsurf readings like 11-28 are common.
              >
              > > This means that jibes are often
              > > unpredictable.
              >
              > Yeah, but you can still nail a few, & it's GREAT. I think you're
              really
              > missing out.
              >
              > > So, I worry more about a board that can edge well
              >
              > If you're needing the edging for gusts, what kind of kite contol
              system do
              > you have?
              >
              > > and is still good during the lulls.
              >
              > Isn't the consensus that a directional is better in the lulls? I
              guess you
              > could say I've chosen a kite (or at least it's 4-line/trim loop
              control
              > system) for the gusts. Maybe you've chosen the board to handle the
              gusts
              > instead of the kite/control system.
              >
              > > I found that I could load up better
              > > on the Wake-N-Style than a directional for jumping. ...
              > > ... I like a smaller board while in the air as well.
              >
              > Okay, so jumping may be an advantage of twintips over
              directionals. I like
              > to jump too!
              >
              > > I think that Wake-N-Style feels so smooth because of the bottom
              > > surface of the board
              >
              > Anything specific about the bottom surface? Rocker, outline, vee
              (or lack
              > of it), or just some magical combination? I'd like to know what
              you think
              > it is, in case I don't get to demo ride a smaller LiteWave, or RRD
              150.
              > "Porpoising" (nose bounce) at high speed is the primary reason I'm
              > considering a new board.
              >
              > > The RRD is also a fun board, but I don't think it is
              > > nearly as durable as the Wake-N-Style.
              >
              > I mentioned riding onto the beach is nice, but I really don't need
              to, since
              > I can't do that now with my Fanatic directional, so if the RRD 150
              performs
              > well on the water I won't care about durability THAT much. The
              reason I
              > mention the RRD is because it's got that short, curved, rockered
              toe side,
              > which might improve the toe turns without compromising straight
              line or
              > jumping performance.
              >
              > Mel
            • Mel
              ... Whoops! I just read my quote. I meant to say ripping 240 degree arcs is important TO ME. ... Yes. Heel turns, for example, and it does look cool to spin
              Message 6 of 13 , Jun 11, 2001
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                <fernmanus@...> wrote:

                > Don't get me wrong. I like a good jibe, but it is not a big issue
                > with me.

                Whoops! I just read my quote. I meant to say ripping 240 degree arcs is
                important TO ME.

                > There are some really fun jibes that you can do on a
                > bidirectional.

                Yes. Heel turns, for example, and it does look cool to spin the board after
                exiting (looks to the windsurfers like a difficult trick, but is really
                quite easy), or throw up a huge wall of spray by sliding on the heel or toe
                edge.

                > I am not exactly sure what makes the 169 Lightwave such a great
                > board. I think it is a combination of the smooth surface on the
                > bottom of the board and small fins.

                Aren't those characteristics normal on bidirectional boards? The RRDs both
                have those features. The Naish 140 has some channels, maybe that's what you
                mean.

                > It is also more forgiving
                > because of its size. However, I would like to try the Lightwave in a
                > shorter length.

                Me too.

                > I prefer my LF 142 Picklefork when jumping because
                > it is less awkward in the air.

                I think that makes nearly no difference for me because the orientation of
                the board remains nearly constant (no spinning or looping).

                > I think durability is also a big
                > issue even if you don't ride up on the beach. You always have the
                > issue of transporting the board around.

                I only meant that if I can take care of an epoxy sandwich directional, an
                epoxy sandwich bidirectional shouldn't be a problem.

                Mel
              • fernmanus@yahoo.com
                Mel, Yeah, you can do some cool jibes on a bidirectional that are really easy. I like to slide out the front end of the board and then do a big low carving
                Message 7 of 13 , Jun 11, 2001
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                  Mel,

                  Yeah, you can do some cool jibes on a bidirectional that are really
                  easy. I like to slide out the front end of the board and then do a
                  big low carving jibe. You can easily lay one arm out across the
                  water while doing this move.

                  The bottom surface of the RRD is different than the LW. The LW has a
                  P-Tex surface used on most snow boards and skis (makes me wonder if
                  waxing the board might make it even better). I have seen other
                  bidirectionals with this type of surface, but I haven't tried them
                  yet. I also use smaller fins on my LW than the ones that come
                  standard on the RRD. Whatever board you choose, you do want to pay
                  close attention to the fin size on a bidirectional. Deeper fins
                  allow the board to track better, but it also makes it more difficult
                  to release the board to do jibes, go toeside, etc. I kind of like
                  the loose feeling of the LW. I tried a Manta bidirectional
                  recently. The board feels like it is on rails which is great if you
                  are super-powered up, but not so fun when you want to do a little
                  free-style.

                  Durability is important to me after I had an epoxy board damaged by
                  Delta Airlines. I have also ridden my board in water than was only
                  an inch deep and scraped the board along the bottom of the lake.
                  Sounds stupid, but it was a blast to ride in perfectly flat shallow
                  water. Of couse, it would have been very painful if I was pitched
                  forward.

                  Kenny

                  --- In ksurfschool@y..., Mel <kitebord@p...> wrote:
                  > <fernmanus@y...> wrote:
                  >
                  > > Don't get me wrong. I like a good jibe, but it is not a big issue
                  > > with me.
                  >
                  > Whoops! I just read my quote. I meant to say ripping 240 degree
                  arcs is
                  > important TO ME.
                  >
                  > > There are some really fun jibes that you can do on a
                  > > bidirectional.
                  >
                  > Yes. Heel turns, for example, and it does look cool to spin the
                  board after
                  > exiting (looks to the windsurfers like a difficult trick, but is
                  really
                  > quite easy), or throw up a huge wall of spray by sliding on the
                  heel or toe
                  > edge.
                  >
                  > > I am not exactly sure what makes the 169 Lightwave such a great
                  > > board. I think it is a combination of the smooth surface on the
                  > > bottom of the board and small fins.
                  >
                  > Aren't those characteristics normal on bidirectional boards? The
                  RRDs both
                  > have those features. The Naish 140 has some channels, maybe that's
                  what you
                  > mean.
                  >
                  > > It is also more forgiving
                  > > because of its size. However, I would like to try the Lightwave
                  in a
                  > > shorter length.
                  >
                  > Me too.
                  >
                  > > I prefer my LF 142 Picklefork when jumping because
                  > > it is less awkward in the air.
                  >
                  > I think that makes nearly no difference for me because the
                  orientation of
                  > the board remains nearly constant (no spinning or looping).
                  >
                  > > I think durability is also a big
                  > > issue even if you don't ride up on the beach. You always have the
                  > > issue of transporting the board around.
                  >
                  > I only meant that if I can take care of an epoxy sandwich
                  directional, an
                  > epoxy sandwich bidirectional shouldn't be a problem.
                  >
                  > Mel
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