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Re: wake vs. directional round 3 :)

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  • fernmanus@yahoo.com
    Mel, There are a lot of variations of the jibe that are possible on a bidirectional board. Watching the videos is a good idea. Yes, the Wake-N-Style has a
    Message 1 of 13 , Jun 6, 2001
      Mel,

      There are a lot of variations of the jibe that are possible on a
      bidirectional board. Watching the videos is a good idea. Yes, the
      Wake-N-Style has a smooth feel, not all other bidirectionals feel as
      smooth.

      I also fly the kite low when I am well-powered, but when I am really
      overpowered and I am using a large kite this is not always possible.
      Sometimes it is literally impossible to hold an edge. For example
      when I am flying my 17.5 and the wind kicks up to 20 mph. Best bet
      is to wait it out and teabag for awhile or go into shore.

      I actually can get out of the trim loop while getting teabagged.
      When you are dropped back into the water the tension on the lines
      lets up enough to allow you to get out of the loop. I haven't had to
      cut a line yet with my knife, but at least I am prepared.

      Kenny


      --- In ksurfschool@y..., Mel <kitebord@p...> wrote:
      > k man <fernmanus@y...> wrote:
      >
      > > I ride a 169 cm Wake-N-Style (bi-directional
      > > wakeboard)... but I never bothered to
      > > learn how to jibe. I switched to the Wake-N-Style
      > > early on and I have been very happy with that board.
      >
      > I rode that exact board for the first time yesterday, & found the
      feel &
      > stance to be not that different from the directional I'm used to.
      It did
      > feel smoother, but I didn't get a chance to switch back to my
      directional
      > for comparison in the same conditions, because my buddy borrowed my
      fin
      > screw. The main thing I didn't like was being unable to carve a
      nice jibe.
      > I'm definitely going to try it a few more times though, & may watch
      the
      > videos to see how I can make a carving turn.
      >
      > > Overpowered - my definition is when you can no longer
      > > edge the board because the kite is lifting you off the
      > > water in the neutral position
      >
      > I also consider those conditions overpowered, but when that happens
      I fly
      > the kite LOW, & keep my speed LOW, to prevent apparent wind from
      building
      > up. If this means I need to point really high, & end up too far
      upwind
      > before the wind tapers off, I'll stop & body-drag off the wind,
      which is
      > actually pretty fun when you're planing on just your shins!
      >
      > > or even worse when you
      > > are doing 20 foot teabags and are struggling to get
      > > out of the trim loop. That is why I always carry a
      > > knife.
      >
      > That's why I have a snap shackle instead of a trim loop, so I can
      always
      > disconnect if I can't fly the kite low, & just let it pull me
      instead of
      > lifting.
      >
      > Mel
    • Mel
      ... I ve got 4 of them right here & plan to view them as soon as I m done with this! (unless the wind picks up). Yesterday (day 2 on LightWave Wake-N-Style
      Message 2 of 13 , Jun 7, 2001
        <fernmanus@...> wrote:

        > There are a lot of variations of the jibe that are possible on a
        > bidirectional board. Watching the videos is a good idea.

        I've got 4 of them right here & plan to view them as soon as I'm done with
        this! (unless the wind picks up).

        Yesterday (day 2 on LightWave Wake-N-Style 169) conditions were ideal for
        jibing, & I was trying to see how big an arc I could carve, so I'd round up
        into the wind & spin the tail as far towards the kite as possible (made it
        wall past 90 degrees, but never to 180 - maybe 135) while whiping the kite
        back. The most I could get was about HALF as much carving arc as on my
        directional, so I tried doing a toe turn & just riding off toeside. That
        felt OKAY, but still not as good as my directional, partly I THINK because
        the rear foot placement isn't ideal for a good toe carve, & partly because I
        couldn't carve all the way through to pointing upwind on the new direction
        (simply because I couldn't really point with the kite pulling off the front
        side of my body from the trim line wrapped around me from the spreader).
        That same last factor prevented a really long arc on the following heel turn
        (couldn't enter the turn pointing). I must admit that it was kind of cool
        to never have to struggle to get my new back foot in after jibing (without
        catching the wake), & the novelty of heel turns is a nice alternative, but
        that's possible on directionals too (switch feet first) although I've never
        attempted it.

        > Yes, the Wake-N-Style has a smooth feel, not all other bidirectionals feel
        as smooth.

        For example....? (if I get the carving to work, I may be considering a
        smaller LightWave or RRD 150 Assym.) I wonder if it's the board's flexible
        construction.

        > I also fly the kite low when I am well-powered, but when I am really
        > overpowered and I am using a large kite this is not always possible.
        > Sometimes it is literally impossible to hold an edge.

        I guess that's an advantage of a directional : You've more fin area to
        push against, even if you can't get the rail to hold.

        Mel
      • Mel
        Day 3 on LiteWave 169. Spinning the board from toe side back to heel side after coming out of a toe turn is actually pretty easy IF powered up enough to plane
        Message 3 of 13 , Jun 7, 2001
          Day 3 on LiteWave 169.

          Spinning the board from toe side back to heel side after coming out of a toe
          turn is actually pretty easy IF powered up enough to plane with the kite
          high, OR if barely powered up enough to plane at all. The other trick I
          learned is to initiate the spin HARD, & then back off to prevent
          over-rotation.

          I still found it harder to do a really good toe carve, partly because of the
          difficulty in exiting pointing upwind* (reduces carving arc by 30 degrees or
          so), AND because of lateral (& possibly longitudinal) back foot placement,
          although that may be helped by a narrower board & shorter, rounder, rockered
          toe rail.
          *due to the trim line wrapping around my side from its attachment point on
          the spreader.

          While riding, I began to wonder why I'm putting all this thought & effort
          into trying to get toe turns to be as good as those on a directional. Not
          better, just equal, so why bother? Just so I can also do heel turns? I
          wonder about jumping too, since I really like getting high & landing "dry",
          but haven't had the conditions for that yet on the twin tip.

          I do like being able to ride right over kelp & buoy lines, and come closer
          to shore before dismounting*, & again, I do like not having to put my new
          back foot in the strap again, but I REALLY like those directional toe turns.
          *right ONTO shore, in the case of the LiteWave.

          Mel
        • fernmanus@yahoo.com
          Mel, I cannot compare the carving turn on a directional to a bidirectional since I never learned to jibe on a directional. However, it sounds like that aspect
          Message 4 of 13 , Jun 8, 2001
            Mel,

            I cannot compare the carving turn on a directional to a bidirectional
            since I never learned to jibe on a directional. However, it sounds
            like that aspect of kite surfing is very important to you.

            I personally do not worry much about jibing. I live in an area where
            the wind is extemely gusty. This means that jibes are often
            unpredictable. So, I worry more about a board that can edge well and
            is still good during the lulls. I found that I could load up better
            on the Wake-N-Style than a directional for jumping.

            I think that Wake-N-Style feels so smooth because of the bottom
            surface of the board and the small rails as well as the flexibility
            of the board. The RRD is also a fun board, but I don't think it is
            nearly as durable as the Wake-N-Style. Lately, I have been riding
            more on a LF Picklefork. That board is a riot if you have plenty of
            power. I like a smaller board while in the air as well.

            Kenny


            --- In ksurfschool@y..., Mel <kitebord@p...> wrote:
            > Day 3 on LiteWave 169.
            >
            > Spinning the board from toe side back to heel side after coming out
            of a toe
            > turn is actually pretty easy IF powered up enough to plane with the
            kite
            > high, OR if barely powered up enough to plane at all. The other
            trick I
            > learned is to initiate the spin HARD, & then back off to prevent
            > over-rotation.
            >
            > I still found it harder to do a really good toe carve, partly
            because of the
            > difficulty in exiting pointing upwind* (reduces carving arc by 30
            degrees or
            > so), AND because of lateral (& possibly longitudinal) back foot
            placement,
            > although that may be helped by a narrower board & shorter, rounder,
            rockered
            > toe rail.
            > *due to the trim line wrapping around my side from its attachment
            point on
            > the spreader.
            >
            > While riding, I began to wonder why I'm putting all this thought &
            effort
            > into trying to get toe turns to be as good as those on a
            directional. Not
            > better, just equal, so why bother? Just so I can also do heel
            turns? I
            > wonder about jumping too, since I really like getting high &
            landing "dry",
            > but haven't had the conditions for that yet on the twin tip.
            >
            > I do like being able to ride right over kelp & buoy lines, and come
            closer
            > to shore before dismounting*, & again, I do like not having to put
            my new
            > back foot in the strap again, but I REALLY like those directional
            toe turns.
            > *right ONTO shore, in the case of the LiteWave.
            >
            > Mel
          • Mel
            ... It IS very important. Ripping through a 240 degree arc, fully banked & dragging my hand with my elbow bent (even with my legs straight) is one of my
            Message 5 of 13 , Jun 8, 2001
              <fernmanus@...> wrote:

              > I cannot compare the carving turn on a directional to a bidirectional ...
              > ...it sounds like that aspect of kite surfing is very important to you.

              It IS very important. Ripping through a 240 degree arc, fully banked &
              dragging my hand with my elbow bent (even with my legs straight) is one of
              my favorite things about kiteboarding. Maybe somebody else on this group
              can give a comparison.

              > I live in an area where
              > the wind is extemely gusty.

              Me too. iwindsurf readings like 11-28 are common.

              > This means that jibes are often
              > unpredictable.

              Yeah, but you can still nail a few, & it's GREAT. I think you're really
              missing out.

              > So, I worry more about a board that can edge well

              If you're needing the edging for gusts, what kind of kite contol system do
              you have?

              > and is still good during the lulls.

              Isn't the consensus that a directional is better in the lulls? I guess you
              could say I've chosen a kite (or at least it's 4-line/trim loop control
              system) for the gusts. Maybe you've chosen the board to handle the gusts
              instead of the kite/control system.

              > I found that I could load up better
              > on the Wake-N-Style than a directional for jumping. ...
              > ... I like a smaller board while in the air as well.

              Okay, so jumping may be an advantage of twintips over directionals. I like
              to jump too!

              > I think that Wake-N-Style feels so smooth because of the bottom
              > surface of the board

              Anything specific about the bottom surface? Rocker, outline, vee (or lack
              of it), or just some magical combination? I'd like to know what you think
              it is, in case I don't get to demo ride a smaller LiteWave, or RRD 150.
              "Porpoising" (nose bounce) at high speed is the primary reason I'm
              considering a new board.

              > The RRD is also a fun board, but I don't think it is
              > nearly as durable as the Wake-N-Style.

              I mentioned riding onto the beach is nice, but I really don't need to, since
              I can't do that now with my Fanatic directional, so if the RRD 150 performs
              well on the water I won't care about durability THAT much. The reason I
              mention the RRD is because it's got that short, curved, rockered toe side,
              which might improve the toe turns without compromising straight line or
              jumping performance.

              Mel
            • fernmanus@yahoo.com
              Mel, Don t get me wrong. I like a good jibe, but it is not a big issue with me. There are some really fun jibes that you can do on a bidirectional. I use
              Message 6 of 13 , Jun 11, 2001
                Mel,

                Don't get me wrong. I like a good jibe, but it is not a big issue
                with me. There are some really fun jibes that you can do on a
                bidirectional.

                I use both the edge of the board and a 4 line system for edging. I
                primarily fly big kites (Naish 15.5 or Wipika 11.8 and larger). In
                gusty conditions you need all of the power control you can find when
                using a large kite.

                I am not exactly sure what makes the 169 Lightwave such a great
                board. I think it is a combination of the smooth surface on the
                bottom of the board and small fins. It is also more forgiving
                because of its size. However, I would like to try the Lightwave in a
                shorter length. I prefer my LF 142 Picklefork when jumping because
                it is less awkward in the air.

                I have tried the RRD and I can tell you that the Lightwave is more
                fun and stable to ride toe side. I think durability is also a big
                issue even if you don't ride up on the beach. You always have the
                issue of transporting the board around. Boards sometimes get knocked
                over and you really need a durable board if you plan to travel.

                Kenny

                --- In ksurfschool@y..., Mel <kitebord@p...> wrote:
                > <fernmanus@y...> wrote:
                >
                > > I cannot compare the carving turn on a directional to a
                bidirectional ...
                > > ...it sounds like that aspect of kite surfing is very important
                to you.
                >
                > It IS very important. Ripping through a 240 degree arc, fully
                banked &
                > dragging my hand with my elbow bent (even with my legs straight) is
                one of
                > my favorite things about kiteboarding. Maybe somebody else on this
                group
                > can give a comparison.
                >
                > > I live in an area where
                > > the wind is extemely gusty.
                >
                > Me too. iwindsurf readings like 11-28 are common.
                >
                > > This means that jibes are often
                > > unpredictable.
                >
                > Yeah, but you can still nail a few, & it's GREAT. I think you're
                really
                > missing out.
                >
                > > So, I worry more about a board that can edge well
                >
                > If you're needing the edging for gusts, what kind of kite contol
                system do
                > you have?
                >
                > > and is still good during the lulls.
                >
                > Isn't the consensus that a directional is better in the lulls? I
                guess you
                > could say I've chosen a kite (or at least it's 4-line/trim loop
                control
                > system) for the gusts. Maybe you've chosen the board to handle the
                gusts
                > instead of the kite/control system.
                >
                > > I found that I could load up better
                > > on the Wake-N-Style than a directional for jumping. ...
                > > ... I like a smaller board while in the air as well.
                >
                > Okay, so jumping may be an advantage of twintips over
                directionals. I like
                > to jump too!
                >
                > > I think that Wake-N-Style feels so smooth because of the bottom
                > > surface of the board
                >
                > Anything specific about the bottom surface? Rocker, outline, vee
                (or lack
                > of it), or just some magical combination? I'd like to know what
                you think
                > it is, in case I don't get to demo ride a smaller LiteWave, or RRD
                150.
                > "Porpoising" (nose bounce) at high speed is the primary reason I'm
                > considering a new board.
                >
                > > The RRD is also a fun board, but I don't think it is
                > > nearly as durable as the Wake-N-Style.
                >
                > I mentioned riding onto the beach is nice, but I really don't need
                to, since
                > I can't do that now with my Fanatic directional, so if the RRD 150
                performs
                > well on the water I won't care about durability THAT much. The
                reason I
                > mention the RRD is because it's got that short, curved, rockered
                toe side,
                > which might improve the toe turns without compromising straight
                line or
                > jumping performance.
                >
                > Mel
              • Mel
                ... Whoops! I just read my quote. I meant to say ripping 240 degree arcs is important TO ME. ... Yes. Heel turns, for example, and it does look cool to spin
                Message 7 of 13 , Jun 11, 2001
                  <fernmanus@...> wrote:

                  > Don't get me wrong. I like a good jibe, but it is not a big issue
                  > with me.

                  Whoops! I just read my quote. I meant to say ripping 240 degree arcs is
                  important TO ME.

                  > There are some really fun jibes that you can do on a
                  > bidirectional.

                  Yes. Heel turns, for example, and it does look cool to spin the board after
                  exiting (looks to the windsurfers like a difficult trick, but is really
                  quite easy), or throw up a huge wall of spray by sliding on the heel or toe
                  edge.

                  > I am not exactly sure what makes the 169 Lightwave such a great
                  > board. I think it is a combination of the smooth surface on the
                  > bottom of the board and small fins.

                  Aren't those characteristics normal on bidirectional boards? The RRDs both
                  have those features. The Naish 140 has some channels, maybe that's what you
                  mean.

                  > It is also more forgiving
                  > because of its size. However, I would like to try the Lightwave in a
                  > shorter length.

                  Me too.

                  > I prefer my LF 142 Picklefork when jumping because
                  > it is less awkward in the air.

                  I think that makes nearly no difference for me because the orientation of
                  the board remains nearly constant (no spinning or looping).

                  > I think durability is also a big
                  > issue even if you don't ride up on the beach. You always have the
                  > issue of transporting the board around.

                  I only meant that if I can take care of an epoxy sandwich directional, an
                  epoxy sandwich bidirectional shouldn't be a problem.

                  Mel
                • fernmanus@yahoo.com
                  Mel, Yeah, you can do some cool jibes on a bidirectional that are really easy. I like to slide out the front end of the board and then do a big low carving
                  Message 8 of 13 , Jun 11, 2001
                    Mel,

                    Yeah, you can do some cool jibes on a bidirectional that are really
                    easy. I like to slide out the front end of the board and then do a
                    big low carving jibe. You can easily lay one arm out across the
                    water while doing this move.

                    The bottom surface of the RRD is different than the LW. The LW has a
                    P-Tex surface used on most snow boards and skis (makes me wonder if
                    waxing the board might make it even better). I have seen other
                    bidirectionals with this type of surface, but I haven't tried them
                    yet. I also use smaller fins on my LW than the ones that come
                    standard on the RRD. Whatever board you choose, you do want to pay
                    close attention to the fin size on a bidirectional. Deeper fins
                    allow the board to track better, but it also makes it more difficult
                    to release the board to do jibes, go toeside, etc. I kind of like
                    the loose feeling of the LW. I tried a Manta bidirectional
                    recently. The board feels like it is on rails which is great if you
                    are super-powered up, but not so fun when you want to do a little
                    free-style.

                    Durability is important to me after I had an epoxy board damaged by
                    Delta Airlines. I have also ridden my board in water than was only
                    an inch deep and scraped the board along the bottom of the lake.
                    Sounds stupid, but it was a blast to ride in perfectly flat shallow
                    water. Of couse, it would have been very painful if I was pitched
                    forward.

                    Kenny

                    --- In ksurfschool@y..., Mel <kitebord@p...> wrote:
                    > <fernmanus@y...> wrote:
                    >
                    > > Don't get me wrong. I like a good jibe, but it is not a big issue
                    > > with me.
                    >
                    > Whoops! I just read my quote. I meant to say ripping 240 degree
                    arcs is
                    > important TO ME.
                    >
                    > > There are some really fun jibes that you can do on a
                    > > bidirectional.
                    >
                    > Yes. Heel turns, for example, and it does look cool to spin the
                    board after
                    > exiting (looks to the windsurfers like a difficult trick, but is
                    really
                    > quite easy), or throw up a huge wall of spray by sliding on the
                    heel or toe
                    > edge.
                    >
                    > > I am not exactly sure what makes the 169 Lightwave such a great
                    > > board. I think it is a combination of the smooth surface on the
                    > > bottom of the board and small fins.
                    >
                    > Aren't those characteristics normal on bidirectional boards? The
                    RRDs both
                    > have those features. The Naish 140 has some channels, maybe that's
                    what you
                    > mean.
                    >
                    > > It is also more forgiving
                    > > because of its size. However, I would like to try the Lightwave
                    in a
                    > > shorter length.
                    >
                    > Me too.
                    >
                    > > I prefer my LF 142 Picklefork when jumping because
                    > > it is less awkward in the air.
                    >
                    > I think that makes nearly no difference for me because the
                    orientation of
                    > the board remains nearly constant (no spinning or looping).
                    >
                    > > I think durability is also a big
                    > > issue even if you don't ride up on the beach. You always have the
                    > > issue of transporting the board around.
                    >
                    > I only meant that if I can take care of an epoxy sandwich
                    directional, an
                    > epoxy sandwich bidirectional shouldn't be a problem.
                    >
                    > Mel
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