Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [ksurfschool] wake vs. directional round 3 :)

Expand Messages
  • xkites
    ... which ... my ... overpowered , ... blown away...or hopelessly teabagged... :) i ll try not to over-exagerate in the future :) best, jeff
    Message 1 of 13 , Jun 4, 2001
    • 0 Attachment
      >
      > *I only consider it OVERpowered if I actually have an amount of power
      which
      > is OVER the amount I want, but that only happens above about 25 knots for
      my
      > 7.5AR5. I think by my definition you're riding very powered up, but not
      > really overpowered. Not trying in ANY way to belittle or disbelieve you.
      > Just a different definition. If you're normally riding "very
      overpowered",
      > what do you call it when there's really too much wind for you?
      >

      blown away...or hopelessly teabagged... :)


      i'll try not to "over-exagerate" in the future :)

      best,

      jeff

      > Mel
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
      >
      >
    • k man
      I will put in my 2 cents worth. I ride a 169 cm Wake-N-Style (bi-directional wakeboard) and a 142 cm Picklefork (bi-directional wakeboard). I started out
      Message 2 of 13 , Jun 6, 2001
      • 0 Attachment
        I will put in my 2 cents worth.

        I ride a 169 cm Wake-N-Style (bi-directional
        wakeboard) and a 142 cm Picklefork (bi-directional
        wakeboard). I started out using a 7'6" directional.
        When I started kite boarding I was not aware of any
        large bidirectional boards for beginners. I have no
        windsurfing background. I learned how to kitesurf on
        the large directional board, but I never bothered to
        learn how to jibe. I switched to the Wake-N-Style
        early on and I have been very happy with that board.

        Recently, I have been drawn to the Picklefork. It
        allows me to ride more powered up and it is a lot
        easier to handle while in the air.

        Overpowered - my definition is when you can no longer
        edge the board because the kite is lifting you off the
        water in the neutral position or even worse when you
        are doing 20 foot teabags and are struggling to get
        out of the trim loop. That is why I always carry a
        knife.

        Kenny
        --- xkites <info@...> wrote:
        >
        > >
        > > *I only consider it OVERpowered if I actually have
        > an amount of power
        > which
        > > is OVER the amount I want, but that only happens
        > above about 25 knots for
        > my
        > > 7.5AR5. I think by my definition you're riding
        > very powered up, but not
        > > really overpowered. Not trying in ANY way to
        > belittle or disbelieve you.
        > > Just a different definition. If you're normally
        > riding "very
        > overpowered",
        > > what do you call it when there's really too much
        > wind for you?
        > >
        >
        > blown away...or hopelessly teabagged... :)
        >
        >
        > i'll try not to "over-exagerate" in the future :)
        >
        > best,
        >
        > jeff
        >
        > > Mel
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
        > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        > >
        > >
        >
        >


        __________________________________________________
        Do You Yahoo!?
        Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35
        a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
      • Mel
        ... I rode that exact board for the first time yesterday, & found the feel & stance to be not that different from the directional I m used to. It did feel
        Message 3 of 13 , Jun 6, 2001
        • 0 Attachment
          k man <fernmanus@...> wrote:

          > I ride a 169 cm Wake-N-Style (bi-directional
          > wakeboard)... but I never bothered to
          > learn how to jibe. I switched to the Wake-N-Style
          > early on and I have been very happy with that board.

          I rode that exact board for the first time yesterday, & found the feel &
          stance to be not that different from the directional I'm used to. It did
          feel smoother, but I didn't get a chance to switch back to my directional
          for comparison in the same conditions, because my buddy borrowed my fin
          screw. The main thing I didn't like was being unable to carve a nice jibe.
          I'm definitely going to try it a few more times though, & may watch the
          videos to see how I can make a carving turn.

          > Overpowered - my definition is when you can no longer
          > edge the board because the kite is lifting you off the
          > water in the neutral position

          I also consider those conditions overpowered, but when that happens I fly
          the kite LOW, & keep my speed LOW, to prevent apparent wind from building
          up. If this means I need to point really high, & end up too far upwind
          before the wind tapers off, I'll stop & body-drag off the wind, which is
          actually pretty fun when you're planing on just your shins!

          > or even worse when you
          > are doing 20 foot teabags and are struggling to get
          > out of the trim loop. That is why I always carry a
          > knife.

          That's why I have a snap shackle instead of a trim loop, so I can always
          disconnect if I can't fly the kite low, & just let it pull me instead of
          lifting.

          Mel
        • fernmanus@yahoo.com
          Mel, There are a lot of variations of the jibe that are possible on a bidirectional board. Watching the videos is a good idea. Yes, the Wake-N-Style has a
          Message 4 of 13 , Jun 6, 2001
          • 0 Attachment
            Mel,

            There are a lot of variations of the jibe that are possible on a
            bidirectional board. Watching the videos is a good idea. Yes, the
            Wake-N-Style has a smooth feel, not all other bidirectionals feel as
            smooth.

            I also fly the kite low when I am well-powered, but when I am really
            overpowered and I am using a large kite this is not always possible.
            Sometimes it is literally impossible to hold an edge. For example
            when I am flying my 17.5 and the wind kicks up to 20 mph. Best bet
            is to wait it out and teabag for awhile or go into shore.

            I actually can get out of the trim loop while getting teabagged.
            When you are dropped back into the water the tension on the lines
            lets up enough to allow you to get out of the loop. I haven't had to
            cut a line yet with my knife, but at least I am prepared.

            Kenny


            --- In ksurfschool@y..., Mel <kitebord@p...> wrote:
            > k man <fernmanus@y...> wrote:
            >
            > > I ride a 169 cm Wake-N-Style (bi-directional
            > > wakeboard)... but I never bothered to
            > > learn how to jibe. I switched to the Wake-N-Style
            > > early on and I have been very happy with that board.
            >
            > I rode that exact board for the first time yesterday, & found the
            feel &
            > stance to be not that different from the directional I'm used to.
            It did
            > feel smoother, but I didn't get a chance to switch back to my
            directional
            > for comparison in the same conditions, because my buddy borrowed my
            fin
            > screw. The main thing I didn't like was being unable to carve a
            nice jibe.
            > I'm definitely going to try it a few more times though, & may watch
            the
            > videos to see how I can make a carving turn.
            >
            > > Overpowered - my definition is when you can no longer
            > > edge the board because the kite is lifting you off the
            > > water in the neutral position
            >
            > I also consider those conditions overpowered, but when that happens
            I fly
            > the kite LOW, & keep my speed LOW, to prevent apparent wind from
            building
            > up. If this means I need to point really high, & end up too far
            upwind
            > before the wind tapers off, I'll stop & body-drag off the wind,
            which is
            > actually pretty fun when you're planing on just your shins!
            >
            > > or even worse when you
            > > are doing 20 foot teabags and are struggling to get
            > > out of the trim loop. That is why I always carry a
            > > knife.
            >
            > That's why I have a snap shackle instead of a trim loop, so I can
            always
            > disconnect if I can't fly the kite low, & just let it pull me
            instead of
            > lifting.
            >
            > Mel
          • Mel
            ... I ve got 4 of them right here & plan to view them as soon as I m done with this! (unless the wind picks up). Yesterday (day 2 on LightWave Wake-N-Style
            Message 5 of 13 , Jun 7, 2001
            • 0 Attachment
              <fernmanus@...> wrote:

              > There are a lot of variations of the jibe that are possible on a
              > bidirectional board. Watching the videos is a good idea.

              I've got 4 of them right here & plan to view them as soon as I'm done with
              this! (unless the wind picks up).

              Yesterday (day 2 on LightWave Wake-N-Style 169) conditions were ideal for
              jibing, & I was trying to see how big an arc I could carve, so I'd round up
              into the wind & spin the tail as far towards the kite as possible (made it
              wall past 90 degrees, but never to 180 - maybe 135) while whiping the kite
              back. The most I could get was about HALF as much carving arc as on my
              directional, so I tried doing a toe turn & just riding off toeside. That
              felt OKAY, but still not as good as my directional, partly I THINK because
              the rear foot placement isn't ideal for a good toe carve, & partly because I
              couldn't carve all the way through to pointing upwind on the new direction
              (simply because I couldn't really point with the kite pulling off the front
              side of my body from the trim line wrapped around me from the spreader).
              That same last factor prevented a really long arc on the following heel turn
              (couldn't enter the turn pointing). I must admit that it was kind of cool
              to never have to struggle to get my new back foot in after jibing (without
              catching the wake), & the novelty of heel turns is a nice alternative, but
              that's possible on directionals too (switch feet first) although I've never
              attempted it.

              > Yes, the Wake-N-Style has a smooth feel, not all other bidirectionals feel
              as smooth.

              For example....? (if I get the carving to work, I may be considering a
              smaller LightWave or RRD 150 Assym.) I wonder if it's the board's flexible
              construction.

              > I also fly the kite low when I am well-powered, but when I am really
              > overpowered and I am using a large kite this is not always possible.
              > Sometimes it is literally impossible to hold an edge.

              I guess that's an advantage of a directional : You've more fin area to
              push against, even if you can't get the rail to hold.

              Mel
            • Mel
              Day 3 on LiteWave 169. Spinning the board from toe side back to heel side after coming out of a toe turn is actually pretty easy IF powered up enough to plane
              Message 6 of 13 , Jun 7, 2001
              • 0 Attachment
                Day 3 on LiteWave 169.

                Spinning the board from toe side back to heel side after coming out of a toe
                turn is actually pretty easy IF powered up enough to plane with the kite
                high, OR if barely powered up enough to plane at all. The other trick I
                learned is to initiate the spin HARD, & then back off to prevent
                over-rotation.

                I still found it harder to do a really good toe carve, partly because of the
                difficulty in exiting pointing upwind* (reduces carving arc by 30 degrees or
                so), AND because of lateral (& possibly longitudinal) back foot placement,
                although that may be helped by a narrower board & shorter, rounder, rockered
                toe rail.
                *due to the trim line wrapping around my side from its attachment point on
                the spreader.

                While riding, I began to wonder why I'm putting all this thought & effort
                into trying to get toe turns to be as good as those on a directional. Not
                better, just equal, so why bother? Just so I can also do heel turns? I
                wonder about jumping too, since I really like getting high & landing "dry",
                but haven't had the conditions for that yet on the twin tip.

                I do like being able to ride right over kelp & buoy lines, and come closer
                to shore before dismounting*, & again, I do like not having to put my new
                back foot in the strap again, but I REALLY like those directional toe turns.
                *right ONTO shore, in the case of the LiteWave.

                Mel
              • fernmanus@yahoo.com
                Mel, I cannot compare the carving turn on a directional to a bidirectional since I never learned to jibe on a directional. However, it sounds like that aspect
                Message 7 of 13 , Jun 8, 2001
                • 0 Attachment
                  Mel,

                  I cannot compare the carving turn on a directional to a bidirectional
                  since I never learned to jibe on a directional. However, it sounds
                  like that aspect of kite surfing is very important to you.

                  I personally do not worry much about jibing. I live in an area where
                  the wind is extemely gusty. This means that jibes are often
                  unpredictable. So, I worry more about a board that can edge well and
                  is still good during the lulls. I found that I could load up better
                  on the Wake-N-Style than a directional for jumping.

                  I think that Wake-N-Style feels so smooth because of the bottom
                  surface of the board and the small rails as well as the flexibility
                  of the board. The RRD is also a fun board, but I don't think it is
                  nearly as durable as the Wake-N-Style. Lately, I have been riding
                  more on a LF Picklefork. That board is a riot if you have plenty of
                  power. I like a smaller board while in the air as well.

                  Kenny


                  --- In ksurfschool@y..., Mel <kitebord@p...> wrote:
                  > Day 3 on LiteWave 169.
                  >
                  > Spinning the board from toe side back to heel side after coming out
                  of a toe
                  > turn is actually pretty easy IF powered up enough to plane with the
                  kite
                  > high, OR if barely powered up enough to plane at all. The other
                  trick I
                  > learned is to initiate the spin HARD, & then back off to prevent
                  > over-rotation.
                  >
                  > I still found it harder to do a really good toe carve, partly
                  because of the
                  > difficulty in exiting pointing upwind* (reduces carving arc by 30
                  degrees or
                  > so), AND because of lateral (& possibly longitudinal) back foot
                  placement,
                  > although that may be helped by a narrower board & shorter, rounder,
                  rockered
                  > toe rail.
                  > *due to the trim line wrapping around my side from its attachment
                  point on
                  > the spreader.
                  >
                  > While riding, I began to wonder why I'm putting all this thought &
                  effort
                  > into trying to get toe turns to be as good as those on a
                  directional. Not
                  > better, just equal, so why bother? Just so I can also do heel
                  turns? I
                  > wonder about jumping too, since I really like getting high &
                  landing "dry",
                  > but haven't had the conditions for that yet on the twin tip.
                  >
                  > I do like being able to ride right over kelp & buoy lines, and come
                  closer
                  > to shore before dismounting*, & again, I do like not having to put
                  my new
                  > back foot in the strap again, but I REALLY like those directional
                  toe turns.
                  > *right ONTO shore, in the case of the LiteWave.
                  >
                  > Mel
                • Mel
                  ... It IS very important. Ripping through a 240 degree arc, fully banked & dragging my hand with my elbow bent (even with my legs straight) is one of my
                  Message 8 of 13 , Jun 8, 2001
                  • 0 Attachment
                    <fernmanus@...> wrote:

                    > I cannot compare the carving turn on a directional to a bidirectional ...
                    > ...it sounds like that aspect of kite surfing is very important to you.

                    It IS very important. Ripping through a 240 degree arc, fully banked &
                    dragging my hand with my elbow bent (even with my legs straight) is one of
                    my favorite things about kiteboarding. Maybe somebody else on this group
                    can give a comparison.

                    > I live in an area where
                    > the wind is extemely gusty.

                    Me too. iwindsurf readings like 11-28 are common.

                    > This means that jibes are often
                    > unpredictable.

                    Yeah, but you can still nail a few, & it's GREAT. I think you're really
                    missing out.

                    > So, I worry more about a board that can edge well

                    If you're needing the edging for gusts, what kind of kite contol system do
                    you have?

                    > and is still good during the lulls.

                    Isn't the consensus that a directional is better in the lulls? I guess you
                    could say I've chosen a kite (or at least it's 4-line/trim loop control
                    system) for the gusts. Maybe you've chosen the board to handle the gusts
                    instead of the kite/control system.

                    > I found that I could load up better
                    > on the Wake-N-Style than a directional for jumping. ...
                    > ... I like a smaller board while in the air as well.

                    Okay, so jumping may be an advantage of twintips over directionals. I like
                    to jump too!

                    > I think that Wake-N-Style feels so smooth because of the bottom
                    > surface of the board

                    Anything specific about the bottom surface? Rocker, outline, vee (or lack
                    of it), or just some magical combination? I'd like to know what you think
                    it is, in case I don't get to demo ride a smaller LiteWave, or RRD 150.
                    "Porpoising" (nose bounce) at high speed is the primary reason I'm
                    considering a new board.

                    > The RRD is also a fun board, but I don't think it is
                    > nearly as durable as the Wake-N-Style.

                    I mentioned riding onto the beach is nice, but I really don't need to, since
                    I can't do that now with my Fanatic directional, so if the RRD 150 performs
                    well on the water I won't care about durability THAT much. The reason I
                    mention the RRD is because it's got that short, curved, rockered toe side,
                    which might improve the toe turns without compromising straight line or
                    jumping performance.

                    Mel
                  • fernmanus@yahoo.com
                    Mel, Don t get me wrong. I like a good jibe, but it is not a big issue with me. There are some really fun jibes that you can do on a bidirectional. I use
                    Message 9 of 13 , Jun 11, 2001
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Mel,

                      Don't get me wrong. I like a good jibe, but it is not a big issue
                      with me. There are some really fun jibes that you can do on a
                      bidirectional.

                      I use both the edge of the board and a 4 line system for edging. I
                      primarily fly big kites (Naish 15.5 or Wipika 11.8 and larger). In
                      gusty conditions you need all of the power control you can find when
                      using a large kite.

                      I am not exactly sure what makes the 169 Lightwave such a great
                      board. I think it is a combination of the smooth surface on the
                      bottom of the board and small fins. It is also more forgiving
                      because of its size. However, I would like to try the Lightwave in a
                      shorter length. I prefer my LF 142 Picklefork when jumping because
                      it is less awkward in the air.

                      I have tried the RRD and I can tell you that the Lightwave is more
                      fun and stable to ride toe side. I think durability is also a big
                      issue even if you don't ride up on the beach. You always have the
                      issue of transporting the board around. Boards sometimes get knocked
                      over and you really need a durable board if you plan to travel.

                      Kenny

                      --- In ksurfschool@y..., Mel <kitebord@p...> wrote:
                      > <fernmanus@y...> wrote:
                      >
                      > > I cannot compare the carving turn on a directional to a
                      bidirectional ...
                      > > ...it sounds like that aspect of kite surfing is very important
                      to you.
                      >
                      > It IS very important. Ripping through a 240 degree arc, fully
                      banked &
                      > dragging my hand with my elbow bent (even with my legs straight) is
                      one of
                      > my favorite things about kiteboarding. Maybe somebody else on this
                      group
                      > can give a comparison.
                      >
                      > > I live in an area where
                      > > the wind is extemely gusty.
                      >
                      > Me too. iwindsurf readings like 11-28 are common.
                      >
                      > > This means that jibes are often
                      > > unpredictable.
                      >
                      > Yeah, but you can still nail a few, & it's GREAT. I think you're
                      really
                      > missing out.
                      >
                      > > So, I worry more about a board that can edge well
                      >
                      > If you're needing the edging for gusts, what kind of kite contol
                      system do
                      > you have?
                      >
                      > > and is still good during the lulls.
                      >
                      > Isn't the consensus that a directional is better in the lulls? I
                      guess you
                      > could say I've chosen a kite (or at least it's 4-line/trim loop
                      control
                      > system) for the gusts. Maybe you've chosen the board to handle the
                      gusts
                      > instead of the kite/control system.
                      >
                      > > I found that I could load up better
                      > > on the Wake-N-Style than a directional for jumping. ...
                      > > ... I like a smaller board while in the air as well.
                      >
                      > Okay, so jumping may be an advantage of twintips over
                      directionals. I like
                      > to jump too!
                      >
                      > > I think that Wake-N-Style feels so smooth because of the bottom
                      > > surface of the board
                      >
                      > Anything specific about the bottom surface? Rocker, outline, vee
                      (or lack
                      > of it), or just some magical combination? I'd like to know what
                      you think
                      > it is, in case I don't get to demo ride a smaller LiteWave, or RRD
                      150.
                      > "Porpoising" (nose bounce) at high speed is the primary reason I'm
                      > considering a new board.
                      >
                      > > The RRD is also a fun board, but I don't think it is
                      > > nearly as durable as the Wake-N-Style.
                      >
                      > I mentioned riding onto the beach is nice, but I really don't need
                      to, since
                      > I can't do that now with my Fanatic directional, so if the RRD 150
                      performs
                      > well on the water I won't care about durability THAT much. The
                      reason I
                      > mention the RRD is because it's got that short, curved, rockered
                      toe side,
                      > which might improve the toe turns without compromising straight
                      line or
                      > jumping performance.
                      >
                      > Mel
                    • Mel
                      ... Whoops! I just read my quote. I meant to say ripping 240 degree arcs is important TO ME. ... Yes. Heel turns, for example, and it does look cool to spin
                      Message 10 of 13 , Jun 11, 2001
                      • 0 Attachment
                        <fernmanus@...> wrote:

                        > Don't get me wrong. I like a good jibe, but it is not a big issue
                        > with me.

                        Whoops! I just read my quote. I meant to say ripping 240 degree arcs is
                        important TO ME.

                        > There are some really fun jibes that you can do on a
                        > bidirectional.

                        Yes. Heel turns, for example, and it does look cool to spin the board after
                        exiting (looks to the windsurfers like a difficult trick, but is really
                        quite easy), or throw up a huge wall of spray by sliding on the heel or toe
                        edge.

                        > I am not exactly sure what makes the 169 Lightwave such a great
                        > board. I think it is a combination of the smooth surface on the
                        > bottom of the board and small fins.

                        Aren't those characteristics normal on bidirectional boards? The RRDs both
                        have those features. The Naish 140 has some channels, maybe that's what you
                        mean.

                        > It is also more forgiving
                        > because of its size. However, I would like to try the Lightwave in a
                        > shorter length.

                        Me too.

                        > I prefer my LF 142 Picklefork when jumping because
                        > it is less awkward in the air.

                        I think that makes nearly no difference for me because the orientation of
                        the board remains nearly constant (no spinning or looping).

                        > I think durability is also a big
                        > issue even if you don't ride up on the beach. You always have the
                        > issue of transporting the board around.

                        I only meant that if I can take care of an epoxy sandwich directional, an
                        epoxy sandwich bidirectional shouldn't be a problem.

                        Mel
                      • fernmanus@yahoo.com
                        Mel, Yeah, you can do some cool jibes on a bidirectional that are really easy. I like to slide out the front end of the board and then do a big low carving
                        Message 11 of 13 , Jun 11, 2001
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Mel,

                          Yeah, you can do some cool jibes on a bidirectional that are really
                          easy. I like to slide out the front end of the board and then do a
                          big low carving jibe. You can easily lay one arm out across the
                          water while doing this move.

                          The bottom surface of the RRD is different than the LW. The LW has a
                          P-Tex surface used on most snow boards and skis (makes me wonder if
                          waxing the board might make it even better). I have seen other
                          bidirectionals with this type of surface, but I haven't tried them
                          yet. I also use smaller fins on my LW than the ones that come
                          standard on the RRD. Whatever board you choose, you do want to pay
                          close attention to the fin size on a bidirectional. Deeper fins
                          allow the board to track better, but it also makes it more difficult
                          to release the board to do jibes, go toeside, etc. I kind of like
                          the loose feeling of the LW. I tried a Manta bidirectional
                          recently. The board feels like it is on rails which is great if you
                          are super-powered up, but not so fun when you want to do a little
                          free-style.

                          Durability is important to me after I had an epoxy board damaged by
                          Delta Airlines. I have also ridden my board in water than was only
                          an inch deep and scraped the board along the bottom of the lake.
                          Sounds stupid, but it was a blast to ride in perfectly flat shallow
                          water. Of couse, it would have been very painful if I was pitched
                          forward.

                          Kenny

                          --- In ksurfschool@y..., Mel <kitebord@p...> wrote:
                          > <fernmanus@y...> wrote:
                          >
                          > > Don't get me wrong. I like a good jibe, but it is not a big issue
                          > > with me.
                          >
                          > Whoops! I just read my quote. I meant to say ripping 240 degree
                          arcs is
                          > important TO ME.
                          >
                          > > There are some really fun jibes that you can do on a
                          > > bidirectional.
                          >
                          > Yes. Heel turns, for example, and it does look cool to spin the
                          board after
                          > exiting (looks to the windsurfers like a difficult trick, but is
                          really
                          > quite easy), or throw up a huge wall of spray by sliding on the
                          heel or toe
                          > edge.
                          >
                          > > I am not exactly sure what makes the 169 Lightwave such a great
                          > > board. I think it is a combination of the smooth surface on the
                          > > bottom of the board and small fins.
                          >
                          > Aren't those characteristics normal on bidirectional boards? The
                          RRDs both
                          > have those features. The Naish 140 has some channels, maybe that's
                          what you
                          > mean.
                          >
                          > > It is also more forgiving
                          > > because of its size. However, I would like to try the Lightwave
                          in a
                          > > shorter length.
                          >
                          > Me too.
                          >
                          > > I prefer my LF 142 Picklefork when jumping because
                          > > it is less awkward in the air.
                          >
                          > I think that makes nearly no difference for me because the
                          orientation of
                          > the board remains nearly constant (no spinning or looping).
                          >
                          > > I think durability is also a big
                          > > issue even if you don't ride up on the beach. You always have the
                          > > issue of transporting the board around.
                          >
                          > I only meant that if I can take care of an epoxy sandwich
                          directional, an
                          > epoxy sandwich bidirectional shouldn't be a problem.
                          >
                          > Mel
                        Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.