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wake vs. directional round 3 :)

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  • xkites
    Round 3. :) Excellent points, Mel. I didn t realize windsurfers found it so easy to bring their skills to kitesurfing so easily. So it makes complete sense to
    Message 1 of 13 , Jun 4, 2001
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      Round 3. :)

      Excellent points, Mel. I didn't realize windsurfers found it so easy to
      bring their skills to kitesurfing so easily. So it makes complete sense to
      get on a board that will allow you to
      take advantage of those skills. Now that the issues of jibing and staying
      upwind have been dealt with, and the general rule of thumb is go with what
      you know. if you have a strong background in windsurfing take advantage of
      it and go directional, if not go wake/twin.

      Now how about riding overpowered? I generally ride very overpowered on a
      2-line kite, and I find it almost impossible to stay in control and go
      upwind on a directional (maybe a tiny directional would do the trick?, but
      then i need 2 boards!) but as it stands in my experience riding overpowered
      is easier on a wakeboard, simply because you can plow the edge in the water,
      which would be impossible on a directional. This allows me to go much bigger
      and faster.

      best,

      jeff



      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Mel" <kitebord@...>
      To: <ksurfschool@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Monday, June 04, 2001 2:19 PM
      Subject: Re: [ksurfschool] Re: kit advice please!


      > xkites.com <info@...> wrote:
      >
      > > ...I don't want to
      > > get in the way of anyone's crusade, and honestly I think that as long as
      > > everyone's having a blast on the water, it doesn't matter what you've
      got
      > on
      > > your feet.
      >
      > Absolutely. I think the board is VERY unimportant, even compared to the
      > kite (it's recently been discussed that even the kite type isn't very
      > important, at least compared to kite size & skill). HOWEVER (please
      scrolll
      > down):
      >
      > > In my experience however, a twin/wakeboard (without bindings) has made
      the
      > > life of every beginner I know easier once they are already up and doing
      > > downwind runs, for 2 simple reasons: 1, you don't need to learn how to
      > jibe.
      > > (it'll take you a good 2-3 months usually to get the jibe down).
      >
      > For non-windsurfers I'd agree, but the original post was from a 10-year
      > windsurfer, so he should have nearly the same ease learning jibes as me (2
      > years to get it with a sail, 2 ATTEMPTS to get it with a kite). I REALLY
      > like carving high-g turns, yet I see better kiters than me who are unable
      to
      > do that on their bi-directionals.
      >
      > > 2, most
      > > people find it much easier to stay upwind using a twin/wake board,
      because
      > > they find it easier to work the rails instead of the fin. So I would
      > > recommend you get a "bigger" twin/wake board.
      >
      > Again, it may be my windsurfing background (like the original poster), but
      I
      > learned to stay upwind MUCH faster than most locals (all ex-windsurfers),
      > learning on a GIANT 7'6. The extra surface area lets you plane at a lower
      > speed, so you can point higher before it stalls.
      >
      > In other words, for fun & ease of learning I recommend ex-windsurfers to
      go
      > directional, & everybody else bi.
      >
      > Mel
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
      >
      >
    • Mel
      ... overpowered ... water, ... bigger ... Wakeboards seem to increase the high end of the wind range, as well as the gust handling capacity. That s probably
      Message 2 of 13 , Jun 4, 2001
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        xkites <info@...> wrote:

        > Now how about riding overpowered? I generally ride very overpowered on a
        > 2-line kite, and I find it almost impossible to stay in control and go
        > upwind on a directional (maybe a tiny directional would do the trick?, but
        > then i need 2 boards!) but as it stands in my experience riding
        overpowered
        > is easier on a wakeboard, simply because you can plow the edge in the
        water,
        > which would be impossible on a directional. This allows me to go much
        bigger
        > and faster.

        Wakeboards seem to increase the high end of the wind range, as well as the
        gust handling capacity. That's probably why a lot of wakeboarders can use
        2-line kites.

        I learned to ride upwind on that HUGE 7'6 with a 2-line. I was not riding
        very powered up then, since I didn't have the skill. I now ride very
        powered up* on a 4-line, always in the trim loop so I can always be as fully
        powered up as possible, even in the lulls. My 6' board is still quite large
        for my 62kg size, but I can still "plow" the edge, or at least do a
        controlled spin-out/railslide to dump speed & power. I rarely need to do
        that though, with 4-line/trimloop.

        *I only consider it OVERpowered if I actually have an amount of power which
        is OVER the amount I want, but that only happens above about 25 knots for my
        7.5AR5. I think by my definition you're riding very powered up, but not
        really overpowered. Not trying in ANY way to belittle or disbelieve you.
        Just a different definition. If you're normally riding "very overpowered",
        what do you call it when there's really too much wind for you?

        Mel
      • xkites
        ... which ... my ... overpowered , ... blown away...or hopelessly teabagged... :) i ll try not to over-exagerate in the future :) best, jeff
        Message 3 of 13 , Jun 4, 2001
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          >
          > *I only consider it OVERpowered if I actually have an amount of power
          which
          > is OVER the amount I want, but that only happens above about 25 knots for
          my
          > 7.5AR5. I think by my definition you're riding very powered up, but not
          > really overpowered. Not trying in ANY way to belittle or disbelieve you.
          > Just a different definition. If you're normally riding "very
          overpowered",
          > what do you call it when there's really too much wind for you?
          >

          blown away...or hopelessly teabagged... :)


          i'll try not to "over-exagerate" in the future :)

          best,

          jeff

          > Mel
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          >
          >
        • k man
          I will put in my 2 cents worth. I ride a 169 cm Wake-N-Style (bi-directional wakeboard) and a 142 cm Picklefork (bi-directional wakeboard). I started out
          Message 4 of 13 , Jun 6, 2001
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            I will put in my 2 cents worth.

            I ride a 169 cm Wake-N-Style (bi-directional
            wakeboard) and a 142 cm Picklefork (bi-directional
            wakeboard). I started out using a 7'6" directional.
            When I started kite boarding I was not aware of any
            large bidirectional boards for beginners. I have no
            windsurfing background. I learned how to kitesurf on
            the large directional board, but I never bothered to
            learn how to jibe. I switched to the Wake-N-Style
            early on and I have been very happy with that board.

            Recently, I have been drawn to the Picklefork. It
            allows me to ride more powered up and it is a lot
            easier to handle while in the air.

            Overpowered - my definition is when you can no longer
            edge the board because the kite is lifting you off the
            water in the neutral position or even worse when you
            are doing 20 foot teabags and are struggling to get
            out of the trim loop. That is why I always carry a
            knife.

            Kenny
            --- xkites <info@...> wrote:
            >
            > >
            > > *I only consider it OVERpowered if I actually have
            > an amount of power
            > which
            > > is OVER the amount I want, but that only happens
            > above about 25 knots for
            > my
            > > 7.5AR5. I think by my definition you're riding
            > very powered up, but not
            > > really overpowered. Not trying in ANY way to
            > belittle or disbelieve you.
            > > Just a different definition. If you're normally
            > riding "very
            > overpowered",
            > > what do you call it when there's really too much
            > wind for you?
            > >
            >
            > blown away...or hopelessly teabagged... :)
            >
            >
            > i'll try not to "over-exagerate" in the future :)
            >
            > best,
            >
            > jeff
            >
            > > Mel
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
            > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            > >
            > >
            >
            >


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          • Mel
            ... I rode that exact board for the first time yesterday, & found the feel & stance to be not that different from the directional I m used to. It did feel
            Message 5 of 13 , Jun 6, 2001
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              k man <fernmanus@...> wrote:

              > I ride a 169 cm Wake-N-Style (bi-directional
              > wakeboard)... but I never bothered to
              > learn how to jibe. I switched to the Wake-N-Style
              > early on and I have been very happy with that board.

              I rode that exact board for the first time yesterday, & found the feel &
              stance to be not that different from the directional I'm used to. It did
              feel smoother, but I didn't get a chance to switch back to my directional
              for comparison in the same conditions, because my buddy borrowed my fin
              screw. The main thing I didn't like was being unable to carve a nice jibe.
              I'm definitely going to try it a few more times though, & may watch the
              videos to see how I can make a carving turn.

              > Overpowered - my definition is when you can no longer
              > edge the board because the kite is lifting you off the
              > water in the neutral position

              I also consider those conditions overpowered, but when that happens I fly
              the kite LOW, & keep my speed LOW, to prevent apparent wind from building
              up. If this means I need to point really high, & end up too far upwind
              before the wind tapers off, I'll stop & body-drag off the wind, which is
              actually pretty fun when you're planing on just your shins!

              > or even worse when you
              > are doing 20 foot teabags and are struggling to get
              > out of the trim loop. That is why I always carry a
              > knife.

              That's why I have a snap shackle instead of a trim loop, so I can always
              disconnect if I can't fly the kite low, & just let it pull me instead of
              lifting.

              Mel
            • fernmanus@yahoo.com
              Mel, There are a lot of variations of the jibe that are possible on a bidirectional board. Watching the videos is a good idea. Yes, the Wake-N-Style has a
              Message 6 of 13 , Jun 6, 2001
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                Mel,

                There are a lot of variations of the jibe that are possible on a
                bidirectional board. Watching the videos is a good idea. Yes, the
                Wake-N-Style has a smooth feel, not all other bidirectionals feel as
                smooth.

                I also fly the kite low when I am well-powered, but when I am really
                overpowered and I am using a large kite this is not always possible.
                Sometimes it is literally impossible to hold an edge. For example
                when I am flying my 17.5 and the wind kicks up to 20 mph. Best bet
                is to wait it out and teabag for awhile or go into shore.

                I actually can get out of the trim loop while getting teabagged.
                When you are dropped back into the water the tension on the lines
                lets up enough to allow you to get out of the loop. I haven't had to
                cut a line yet with my knife, but at least I am prepared.

                Kenny


                --- In ksurfschool@y..., Mel <kitebord@p...> wrote:
                > k man <fernmanus@y...> wrote:
                >
                > > I ride a 169 cm Wake-N-Style (bi-directional
                > > wakeboard)... but I never bothered to
                > > learn how to jibe. I switched to the Wake-N-Style
                > > early on and I have been very happy with that board.
                >
                > I rode that exact board for the first time yesterday, & found the
                feel &
                > stance to be not that different from the directional I'm used to.
                It did
                > feel smoother, but I didn't get a chance to switch back to my
                directional
                > for comparison in the same conditions, because my buddy borrowed my
                fin
                > screw. The main thing I didn't like was being unable to carve a
                nice jibe.
                > I'm definitely going to try it a few more times though, & may watch
                the
                > videos to see how I can make a carving turn.
                >
                > > Overpowered - my definition is when you can no longer
                > > edge the board because the kite is lifting you off the
                > > water in the neutral position
                >
                > I also consider those conditions overpowered, but when that happens
                I fly
                > the kite LOW, & keep my speed LOW, to prevent apparent wind from
                building
                > up. If this means I need to point really high, & end up too far
                upwind
                > before the wind tapers off, I'll stop & body-drag off the wind,
                which is
                > actually pretty fun when you're planing on just your shins!
                >
                > > or even worse when you
                > > are doing 20 foot teabags and are struggling to get
                > > out of the trim loop. That is why I always carry a
                > > knife.
                >
                > That's why I have a snap shackle instead of a trim loop, so I can
                always
                > disconnect if I can't fly the kite low, & just let it pull me
                instead of
                > lifting.
                >
                > Mel
              • Mel
                ... I ve got 4 of them right here & plan to view them as soon as I m done with this! (unless the wind picks up). Yesterday (day 2 on LightWave Wake-N-Style
                Message 7 of 13 , Jun 7, 2001
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                  <fernmanus@...> wrote:

                  > There are a lot of variations of the jibe that are possible on a
                  > bidirectional board. Watching the videos is a good idea.

                  I've got 4 of them right here & plan to view them as soon as I'm done with
                  this! (unless the wind picks up).

                  Yesterday (day 2 on LightWave Wake-N-Style 169) conditions were ideal for
                  jibing, & I was trying to see how big an arc I could carve, so I'd round up
                  into the wind & spin the tail as far towards the kite as possible (made it
                  wall past 90 degrees, but never to 180 - maybe 135) while whiping the kite
                  back. The most I could get was about HALF as much carving arc as on my
                  directional, so I tried doing a toe turn & just riding off toeside. That
                  felt OKAY, but still not as good as my directional, partly I THINK because
                  the rear foot placement isn't ideal for a good toe carve, & partly because I
                  couldn't carve all the way through to pointing upwind on the new direction
                  (simply because I couldn't really point with the kite pulling off the front
                  side of my body from the trim line wrapped around me from the spreader).
                  That same last factor prevented a really long arc on the following heel turn
                  (couldn't enter the turn pointing). I must admit that it was kind of cool
                  to never have to struggle to get my new back foot in after jibing (without
                  catching the wake), & the novelty of heel turns is a nice alternative, but
                  that's possible on directionals too (switch feet first) although I've never
                  attempted it.

                  > Yes, the Wake-N-Style has a smooth feel, not all other bidirectionals feel
                  as smooth.

                  For example....? (if I get the carving to work, I may be considering a
                  smaller LightWave or RRD 150 Assym.) I wonder if it's the board's flexible
                  construction.

                  > I also fly the kite low when I am well-powered, but when I am really
                  > overpowered and I am using a large kite this is not always possible.
                  > Sometimes it is literally impossible to hold an edge.

                  I guess that's an advantage of a directional : You've more fin area to
                  push against, even if you can't get the rail to hold.

                  Mel
                • Mel
                  Day 3 on LiteWave 169. Spinning the board from toe side back to heel side after coming out of a toe turn is actually pretty easy IF powered up enough to plane
                  Message 8 of 13 , Jun 7, 2001
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                    Day 3 on LiteWave 169.

                    Spinning the board from toe side back to heel side after coming out of a toe
                    turn is actually pretty easy IF powered up enough to plane with the kite
                    high, OR if barely powered up enough to plane at all. The other trick I
                    learned is to initiate the spin HARD, & then back off to prevent
                    over-rotation.

                    I still found it harder to do a really good toe carve, partly because of the
                    difficulty in exiting pointing upwind* (reduces carving arc by 30 degrees or
                    so), AND because of lateral (& possibly longitudinal) back foot placement,
                    although that may be helped by a narrower board & shorter, rounder, rockered
                    toe rail.
                    *due to the trim line wrapping around my side from its attachment point on
                    the spreader.

                    While riding, I began to wonder why I'm putting all this thought & effort
                    into trying to get toe turns to be as good as those on a directional. Not
                    better, just equal, so why bother? Just so I can also do heel turns? I
                    wonder about jumping too, since I really like getting high & landing "dry",
                    but haven't had the conditions for that yet on the twin tip.

                    I do like being able to ride right over kelp & buoy lines, and come closer
                    to shore before dismounting*, & again, I do like not having to put my new
                    back foot in the strap again, but I REALLY like those directional toe turns.
                    *right ONTO shore, in the case of the LiteWave.

                    Mel
                  • fernmanus@yahoo.com
                    Mel, I cannot compare the carving turn on a directional to a bidirectional since I never learned to jibe on a directional. However, it sounds like that aspect
                    Message 9 of 13 , Jun 8, 2001
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                      Mel,

                      I cannot compare the carving turn on a directional to a bidirectional
                      since I never learned to jibe on a directional. However, it sounds
                      like that aspect of kite surfing is very important to you.

                      I personally do not worry much about jibing. I live in an area where
                      the wind is extemely gusty. This means that jibes are often
                      unpredictable. So, I worry more about a board that can edge well and
                      is still good during the lulls. I found that I could load up better
                      on the Wake-N-Style than a directional for jumping.

                      I think that Wake-N-Style feels so smooth because of the bottom
                      surface of the board and the small rails as well as the flexibility
                      of the board. The RRD is also a fun board, but I don't think it is
                      nearly as durable as the Wake-N-Style. Lately, I have been riding
                      more on a LF Picklefork. That board is a riot if you have plenty of
                      power. I like a smaller board while in the air as well.

                      Kenny


                      --- In ksurfschool@y..., Mel <kitebord@p...> wrote:
                      > Day 3 on LiteWave 169.
                      >
                      > Spinning the board from toe side back to heel side after coming out
                      of a toe
                      > turn is actually pretty easy IF powered up enough to plane with the
                      kite
                      > high, OR if barely powered up enough to plane at all. The other
                      trick I
                      > learned is to initiate the spin HARD, & then back off to prevent
                      > over-rotation.
                      >
                      > I still found it harder to do a really good toe carve, partly
                      because of the
                      > difficulty in exiting pointing upwind* (reduces carving arc by 30
                      degrees or
                      > so), AND because of lateral (& possibly longitudinal) back foot
                      placement,
                      > although that may be helped by a narrower board & shorter, rounder,
                      rockered
                      > toe rail.
                      > *due to the trim line wrapping around my side from its attachment
                      point on
                      > the spreader.
                      >
                      > While riding, I began to wonder why I'm putting all this thought &
                      effort
                      > into trying to get toe turns to be as good as those on a
                      directional. Not
                      > better, just equal, so why bother? Just so I can also do heel
                      turns? I
                      > wonder about jumping too, since I really like getting high &
                      landing "dry",
                      > but haven't had the conditions for that yet on the twin tip.
                      >
                      > I do like being able to ride right over kelp & buoy lines, and come
                      closer
                      > to shore before dismounting*, & again, I do like not having to put
                      my new
                      > back foot in the strap again, but I REALLY like those directional
                      toe turns.
                      > *right ONTO shore, in the case of the LiteWave.
                      >
                      > Mel
                    • Mel
                      ... It IS very important. Ripping through a 240 degree arc, fully banked & dragging my hand with my elbow bent (even with my legs straight) is one of my
                      Message 10 of 13 , Jun 8, 2001
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                        <fernmanus@...> wrote:

                        > I cannot compare the carving turn on a directional to a bidirectional ...
                        > ...it sounds like that aspect of kite surfing is very important to you.

                        It IS very important. Ripping through a 240 degree arc, fully banked &
                        dragging my hand with my elbow bent (even with my legs straight) is one of
                        my favorite things about kiteboarding. Maybe somebody else on this group
                        can give a comparison.

                        > I live in an area where
                        > the wind is extemely gusty.

                        Me too. iwindsurf readings like 11-28 are common.

                        > This means that jibes are often
                        > unpredictable.

                        Yeah, but you can still nail a few, & it's GREAT. I think you're really
                        missing out.

                        > So, I worry more about a board that can edge well

                        If you're needing the edging for gusts, what kind of kite contol system do
                        you have?

                        > and is still good during the lulls.

                        Isn't the consensus that a directional is better in the lulls? I guess you
                        could say I've chosen a kite (or at least it's 4-line/trim loop control
                        system) for the gusts. Maybe you've chosen the board to handle the gusts
                        instead of the kite/control system.

                        > I found that I could load up better
                        > on the Wake-N-Style than a directional for jumping. ...
                        > ... I like a smaller board while in the air as well.

                        Okay, so jumping may be an advantage of twintips over directionals. I like
                        to jump too!

                        > I think that Wake-N-Style feels so smooth because of the bottom
                        > surface of the board

                        Anything specific about the bottom surface? Rocker, outline, vee (or lack
                        of it), or just some magical combination? I'd like to know what you think
                        it is, in case I don't get to demo ride a smaller LiteWave, or RRD 150.
                        "Porpoising" (nose bounce) at high speed is the primary reason I'm
                        considering a new board.

                        > The RRD is also a fun board, but I don't think it is
                        > nearly as durable as the Wake-N-Style.

                        I mentioned riding onto the beach is nice, but I really don't need to, since
                        I can't do that now with my Fanatic directional, so if the RRD 150 performs
                        well on the water I won't care about durability THAT much. The reason I
                        mention the RRD is because it's got that short, curved, rockered toe side,
                        which might improve the toe turns without compromising straight line or
                        jumping performance.

                        Mel
                      • fernmanus@yahoo.com
                        Mel, Don t get me wrong. I like a good jibe, but it is not a big issue with me. There are some really fun jibes that you can do on a bidirectional. I use
                        Message 11 of 13 , Jun 11, 2001
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                          Mel,

                          Don't get me wrong. I like a good jibe, but it is not a big issue
                          with me. There are some really fun jibes that you can do on a
                          bidirectional.

                          I use both the edge of the board and a 4 line system for edging. I
                          primarily fly big kites (Naish 15.5 or Wipika 11.8 and larger). In
                          gusty conditions you need all of the power control you can find when
                          using a large kite.

                          I am not exactly sure what makes the 169 Lightwave such a great
                          board. I think it is a combination of the smooth surface on the
                          bottom of the board and small fins. It is also more forgiving
                          because of its size. However, I would like to try the Lightwave in a
                          shorter length. I prefer my LF 142 Picklefork when jumping because
                          it is less awkward in the air.

                          I have tried the RRD and I can tell you that the Lightwave is more
                          fun and stable to ride toe side. I think durability is also a big
                          issue even if you don't ride up on the beach. You always have the
                          issue of transporting the board around. Boards sometimes get knocked
                          over and you really need a durable board if you plan to travel.

                          Kenny

                          --- In ksurfschool@y..., Mel <kitebord@p...> wrote:
                          > <fernmanus@y...> wrote:
                          >
                          > > I cannot compare the carving turn on a directional to a
                          bidirectional ...
                          > > ...it sounds like that aspect of kite surfing is very important
                          to you.
                          >
                          > It IS very important. Ripping through a 240 degree arc, fully
                          banked &
                          > dragging my hand with my elbow bent (even with my legs straight) is
                          one of
                          > my favorite things about kiteboarding. Maybe somebody else on this
                          group
                          > can give a comparison.
                          >
                          > > I live in an area where
                          > > the wind is extemely gusty.
                          >
                          > Me too. iwindsurf readings like 11-28 are common.
                          >
                          > > This means that jibes are often
                          > > unpredictable.
                          >
                          > Yeah, but you can still nail a few, & it's GREAT. I think you're
                          really
                          > missing out.
                          >
                          > > So, I worry more about a board that can edge well
                          >
                          > If you're needing the edging for gusts, what kind of kite contol
                          system do
                          > you have?
                          >
                          > > and is still good during the lulls.
                          >
                          > Isn't the consensus that a directional is better in the lulls? I
                          guess you
                          > could say I've chosen a kite (or at least it's 4-line/trim loop
                          control
                          > system) for the gusts. Maybe you've chosen the board to handle the
                          gusts
                          > instead of the kite/control system.
                          >
                          > > I found that I could load up better
                          > > on the Wake-N-Style than a directional for jumping. ...
                          > > ... I like a smaller board while in the air as well.
                          >
                          > Okay, so jumping may be an advantage of twintips over
                          directionals. I like
                          > to jump too!
                          >
                          > > I think that Wake-N-Style feels so smooth because of the bottom
                          > > surface of the board
                          >
                          > Anything specific about the bottom surface? Rocker, outline, vee
                          (or lack
                          > of it), or just some magical combination? I'd like to know what
                          you think
                          > it is, in case I don't get to demo ride a smaller LiteWave, or RRD
                          150.
                          > "Porpoising" (nose bounce) at high speed is the primary reason I'm
                          > considering a new board.
                          >
                          > > The RRD is also a fun board, but I don't think it is
                          > > nearly as durable as the Wake-N-Style.
                          >
                          > I mentioned riding onto the beach is nice, but I really don't need
                          to, since
                          > I can't do that now with my Fanatic directional, so if the RRD 150
                          performs
                          > well on the water I won't care about durability THAT much. The
                          reason I
                          > mention the RRD is because it's got that short, curved, rockered
                          toe side,
                          > which might improve the toe turns without compromising straight
                          line or
                          > jumping performance.
                          >
                          > Mel
                        • Mel
                          ... Whoops! I just read my quote. I meant to say ripping 240 degree arcs is important TO ME. ... Yes. Heel turns, for example, and it does look cool to spin
                          Message 12 of 13 , Jun 11, 2001
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                            <fernmanus@...> wrote:

                            > Don't get me wrong. I like a good jibe, but it is not a big issue
                            > with me.

                            Whoops! I just read my quote. I meant to say ripping 240 degree arcs is
                            important TO ME.

                            > There are some really fun jibes that you can do on a
                            > bidirectional.

                            Yes. Heel turns, for example, and it does look cool to spin the board after
                            exiting (looks to the windsurfers like a difficult trick, but is really
                            quite easy), or throw up a huge wall of spray by sliding on the heel or toe
                            edge.

                            > I am not exactly sure what makes the 169 Lightwave such a great
                            > board. I think it is a combination of the smooth surface on the
                            > bottom of the board and small fins.

                            Aren't those characteristics normal on bidirectional boards? The RRDs both
                            have those features. The Naish 140 has some channels, maybe that's what you
                            mean.

                            > It is also more forgiving
                            > because of its size. However, I would like to try the Lightwave in a
                            > shorter length.

                            Me too.

                            > I prefer my LF 142 Picklefork when jumping because
                            > it is less awkward in the air.

                            I think that makes nearly no difference for me because the orientation of
                            the board remains nearly constant (no spinning or looping).

                            > I think durability is also a big
                            > issue even if you don't ride up on the beach. You always have the
                            > issue of transporting the board around.

                            I only meant that if I can take care of an epoxy sandwich directional, an
                            epoxy sandwich bidirectional shouldn't be a problem.

                            Mel
                          • fernmanus@yahoo.com
                            Mel, Yeah, you can do some cool jibes on a bidirectional that are really easy. I like to slide out the front end of the board and then do a big low carving
                            Message 13 of 13 , Jun 11, 2001
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                              Mel,

                              Yeah, you can do some cool jibes on a bidirectional that are really
                              easy. I like to slide out the front end of the board and then do a
                              big low carving jibe. You can easily lay one arm out across the
                              water while doing this move.

                              The bottom surface of the RRD is different than the LW. The LW has a
                              P-Tex surface used on most snow boards and skis (makes me wonder if
                              waxing the board might make it even better). I have seen other
                              bidirectionals with this type of surface, but I haven't tried them
                              yet. I also use smaller fins on my LW than the ones that come
                              standard on the RRD. Whatever board you choose, you do want to pay
                              close attention to the fin size on a bidirectional. Deeper fins
                              allow the board to track better, but it also makes it more difficult
                              to release the board to do jibes, go toeside, etc. I kind of like
                              the loose feeling of the LW. I tried a Manta bidirectional
                              recently. The board feels like it is on rails which is great if you
                              are super-powered up, but not so fun when you want to do a little
                              free-style.

                              Durability is important to me after I had an epoxy board damaged by
                              Delta Airlines. I have also ridden my board in water than was only
                              an inch deep and scraped the board along the bottom of the lake.
                              Sounds stupid, but it was a blast to ride in perfectly flat shallow
                              water. Of couse, it would have been very painful if I was pitched
                              forward.

                              Kenny

                              --- In ksurfschool@y..., Mel <kitebord@p...> wrote:
                              > <fernmanus@y...> wrote:
                              >
                              > > Don't get me wrong. I like a good jibe, but it is not a big issue
                              > > with me.
                              >
                              > Whoops! I just read my quote. I meant to say ripping 240 degree
                              arcs is
                              > important TO ME.
                              >
                              > > There are some really fun jibes that you can do on a
                              > > bidirectional.
                              >
                              > Yes. Heel turns, for example, and it does look cool to spin the
                              board after
                              > exiting (looks to the windsurfers like a difficult trick, but is
                              really
                              > quite easy), or throw up a huge wall of spray by sliding on the
                              heel or toe
                              > edge.
                              >
                              > > I am not exactly sure what makes the 169 Lightwave such a great
                              > > board. I think it is a combination of the smooth surface on the
                              > > bottom of the board and small fins.
                              >
                              > Aren't those characteristics normal on bidirectional boards? The
                              RRDs both
                              > have those features. The Naish 140 has some channels, maybe that's
                              what you
                              > mean.
                              >
                              > > It is also more forgiving
                              > > because of its size. However, I would like to try the Lightwave
                              in a
                              > > shorter length.
                              >
                              > Me too.
                              >
                              > > I prefer my LF 142 Picklefork when jumping because
                              > > it is less awkward in the air.
                              >
                              > I think that makes nearly no difference for me because the
                              orientation of
                              > the board remains nearly constant (no spinning or looping).
                              >
                              > > I think durability is also a big
                              > > issue even if you don't ride up on the beach. You always have the
                              > > issue of transporting the board around.
                              >
                              > I only meant that if I can take care of an epoxy sandwich
                              directional, an
                              > epoxy sandwich bidirectional shouldn't be a problem.
                              >
                              > Mel
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