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This Debate ends: [kcn-l] Answering Karl: Classic Example of Fairtax Mis-Understanding.

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  • James Hodges
    Hi Karl, Jeff has very good chance of starting a state Fairtax movement in Kansas. I will support him in anyway I can. One of the first things I want to do is
    Message 1 of 1 , Dec 4, 2007
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      Hi Karl,
      Jeff has very good chance of starting a state Fairtax movement in Kansas. I will support him in anyway I can. One of the first things I want to do is have Jeff ask Tiahrt, Brownback, and Roberts to submit a bill before Congress which will match money collected by the Kansas Fairtax up to 5 % sales tax rate.
      Why not? The federal goverment now makes 22% of over every product and service from embedded taxes currently in ever consumer purchase.
      The Kansas Fairtax will boost consumers sales and manufacturig exports and the feds will be makeing money off the deal, and it will make Spirit Aerosystems the prime targets for Airbus final assembly work. If Airbus is fleeing Europe because of taxes we need to build the perfect place to for them to land.
      I see no reason why the feds can not yeld 5% back to the state of Kansas to keep the Kansas Fairtax at 7.3 or less. Kansas will need to quailfy by passing a true Fairtax which mirrors the H.R. 25 and eliminates property taxes for all business, except residential rentals, and some other fine print designed to destory Humanism I will detail later. Now is the time to ask.
      Now that I think about it,  we should start the bidding process at 10%, not 5%, and pray for 7.3%. If Kansas govenment can not live on 14.6% sales than we really suck.
      I think this is just what we need to make the Fairtax work for Kansas. 

      Podcast gopwing.podomatic.com



      ----- Original Message ----
      From: KARL PETERJOHN <kpeterjohn@...>
      To: kcn-l@...; Jeff Locke <jeffl@...>
      Cc: James Hodges <netvictory@...>; Doug Eck <doug@...>
      Sent: Tuesday, December 4, 2007 3:39:30 PM
      Subject: RE: [kcn-l] Answering Karl: Classic Example of Fairtax Mis-Understanding.

      Thanks for your kind notes and words.  As a lobbyist for the Kansas Taxpayers Network my focus is on state and local issues at the KS statehouse, not trying to change federal tax policy in a mega sense.  I have tried to push my three members of Congress to support the Fair Tax and am pleased to mentioned that Rep. Todd Tiahrt is a co-sponsor of this bill and I always wave the KTN flag whenever I get the chance to go to DC.  I'm sorry that it took the Fair Tax folks six years to figure out that they were getting a DC runaround with an ineffective lobbying firm.  That's been known to happen in Topeka too.
      I don't know what tax battles will be fought in Washington after the next election.  I do know that some will definitely be fought.  While I support major tax reform, I am not willing to throw away any modest improvements because I did not get everything I wanted.  I always try to walk before I run.....so for another metaphor.
      I always hope for the best but prepare for the worst.  It looks like we have a differing view of how best to achieve our common policy goals.  That can happen and identifying these differences can help us go in the direction we best believe can accomplish as much as we can with the resources we've got.  That's why taxpayers are fortunate to have a variety of excellent groups working on issues in Washington: National Taxpayers Union, Americans for Tax Reform, Citizens Against Government Waste, Americans for Prosperity, and dare I say it,.....I would also include the Club for Growth as well as the national Fair Tax Committee.  Among 501c3 groups, the Tax Foundation does invaluable work too.  That's why tactical differences can be resolved by people working for the group(s) where they have the highest level of comfort.
      I agree with you about the need for getting the public behind this issue.  Grassroots support is always critical.
      Karl Peterjohn

      Jeff Locke <jeffl@...> wrote:
      I see and take your comments all well and good. But I don’t agree with the statement “Don’t let the perfect be the enemy of the good.” In the case of the FairTax you mention the historic need to influence lobbyists to embrace the new approaches you’ve endorsed over the years. And that experience has led you to endorse the quoted statement. A bit of history for your appraisal. The FairTax went the way of the paid lobbyist for some six years in Washington, DC. That was a complete failure due to the entrenched mindsets that embrace the manipulation/gaming of our current unfair and punitive tax code. The lobbyists strung Americans for Fair Taxation along promising change but sold them short due to political/Good ol’ Boy/ “I won’t hurt your bottom line if you won’t hurt mine?” utterances.
      The past several years has resulted in much more support for passing the FairTax by taking the message directly to the people. By patiently and strategically organizing citizen groups to go to their elected officials and demand passage of the FairTax, the reality of the passage of this legislative proposal as it is written has grown by leaps and bounds. The key to passing the FairTax involves educating the masses with the message and education necessary to defend and promote it. Yes indeed we are educating an army of citizen lobbyists. And as unpaid volunteers we are passionate on this single issue. The FairTax will be passed….but we must remain focused and united following a well-orchestrated organizational plan to make history. I will never compromise on the FairTax plan as it is currently written. And I will not commit any of my meager finances to any tax reform plan when a tax replacement approach embodied in the FairTax is the only conceptual solution worth fighting over. My saying is…”Maximize your time on your priorities, minimize your time on compromise.” The FairTax plan is win-win from the start and is bi-partisan. And Huckabee is the best hope we currently have to promote the FairTax from the Oval Office. Come on Karl. We need you on our team full-time. Take care and God bless my friend. 
      Jeffrey Locke  
      From: KARL PETERJOHN [mailto:kpeterjohn@...]
      Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 11:48 AM
      To: kcn-l@...; KCN conservativeposts
      Cc: James Hodges; Doug Eck
      Subject: Re: [kcn-l] Answering Karl: Classic Example of Fairtax Miss-Understanding.

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      In my reading stack is the study, "Changing Texas' Tax Structure: A Fair Tax for Texas?"
      This was recently issued by the Texas Public Policy Foundation by an ol' professor of mine from my college days, Richard Vedder as well as Byron Schlomach with TPPF.  I'm about half way through it and if Texas would reform their state/local tax structure this would provide continued strength to their already robust economy compared to the other 49 states. 
      Vedder and Schlomach's assessment seems to be that there are real pluses but also some minuses for proceeding down this policy option.  I've snuck a peek at the last couple of pages of this report and it is generally something that I believe that you would like to read.  I'll have a copy made for you if you have an interest or can't get this from their web site.   
      James, I appreciate your dedication and interest in trying to improve the structure for taxation in this country.  I agree with you that we need to move it away from a production/income based system and towards a consumption based system.  I also appreciated his kinder comments about several good fiscal organizations, including KTN, that are working to improve our fiscal climate in your last post.
      I was tempted not to bother to respond to you, but I cannot tolerate unnecessary and inappropriate invective such as his last sentence where he makes a "drive by" statement that I have supposed lied twice about you in my previous Fair Tax/Huckabee posts.  Sadly, you did not bother to respond to my specific points in my previous posts, including my quote from the Boortz-Linder book that pointed out that the Fair Tax is a shift and not a reduction if properly implemented.  Is that one of my lies?
      I don't have any argument with the Fair Tax information that you included (see below).  I will acknowledge that I didn't get into the pre-bate portion of the Fair Tax argument for the basic reason that my previous post was an attempt to terminate the criticism of KTN, AFP, and in particular, the Club for Growth, that was part of Mr. Hodges previous post.  I wanted to also point out how one can withdraw from the current tax structure but only at a huge cost in terms of the losses involved by not having any division of labor and was focusing upon the existing state sales and excise taxes and not on a future Fair Tax. 
      I also specifically stated that I support the Fair Tax but I also have major and serious reservations about Mr. Huckabee's candidacy based upon his fiscal performance as governor in Arkansas.
      Frankly, if Mr. Huckabee defies the odds and gets elected, I expect that he would quickly find an excuse to jettison his support for the Fair Tax.  I have seen politicians who are credible and those who, "read my lips," aren't.  IMHO Mr. Huckabee falls into the second category.  I wish that wasn't the case and I didn't feel that way, but I do.
      I can understand why you and other Fair Tax supporters see this differently and support Mr. Huckabee as their leading candidate right now.  I will certainly acknowledge that it is possible that my assessment on Mr. Huckabee might not be right, but I suspect that much of the favorable national media that Mr. Huckabee is recently receiving from what Rush Limbaugh calls the "drive by media" is due to the fact that he is viewed by the DC press as the most defeatable of the GOP candidates. 
      In fact, Mr. Limbaugh stated this point on his program yesterday.  Another "man from Hope" in the  White House whose claim to fame was serving as Governor of Arkansas and is a baptist minister to boot is grounds by the drives bys to give Huckabee coverage as he gets a growing share of the social conservative vote in Iowa polls.  The drive bys do like Mr. Huckabee's "populism" where he has been sounding more like Howard Dean when discussing the rich.  Ironically, this recent, laudatory coverage should be building the rest of the Huckabee campaign and he definitely needs to build on his fund raising where Huckabee still falls far behind candidates like a single digit polling Rep. Paul.  I mention this not because I view the Fair Tax as a liability, but as the leading asset of Mr. Huckabee's campaign on fiscal issues and perhaps even his leading asset period.
      I have also seen some national media people unfairly and inaccurately criticize the Fair Tax as part of their critique of Mr. Huckabee.   In fact I saw an article posted from the Washington Times on the conservative Townhall.com that did so (and sadly, negated in my mind some other worthwhile points contained within it about Mr. Huckabee) by Don Lambro only yesterday. 
      I want you to clearly understand that I do not support the Fair Tax to the exclusion of any and all other efforts to improve our current system of federal taxation.  I believe that seems to be the area where we differ.  I do not want broadbased fiscal reform to be the enemy of narrower but perhaps more politically practical smaller changes or improvements.  Like I said in the earlier posts, "I don't want the perfect to be the enemy of the good."  Perhaps that is a character flaw in me.  Perhaps that's my most recent "lie". 
      I've been lobbying for over a decade in Topeka and know that compromise is often part of the political process.  I try to stand on principle where that is the best tactical route to achieve.  I will certainly grant that I've made mistakes but I've always tried to make mistakes in commission and not in omission.  I make a major effort not to lie about or even misrepresent anyone else's statements.  I have always found it useful to clarify areas of agreement as well as opposition since it helps in the legislative process.  I do remain adamant about defending my good name and over a decade of hard work in my current position from anyone who would defame me.
      While I cannot control what folks in the news media say about KTN and myself as public figures or a public organization, I do want to try and set the record straight whenever necessary. 
      Karl Peterjohn 

      James Hodges <netvictory@...> wrote:
      First let me state,

      Karl Peterjohn is very much a Hero when it comes fighting for jobs in the State of Kansas. Nobody understands taxes in Kansas and how they impact your life better than Karl. No union has every done more for the working man.

      The AFP and the KTN commercials on the Radio 1330 are the best I have every heard about explaining the impact of taxes on jobs in the state of Kansas.  Outstanding Job KTN and AFP!

      Now for the mis-understand. Karl wrote:
      "You state that a FAIR tax will allow you to decide how much tax you will pay.  Try that at the grocery store when it comes to the state sales tax the next time you decide to buy some groceries or put gas in your car (state and federal gasoline excise taxes).  Yes, you can personally exercise economic autarky with the FAIR tax but you will discover what it is like to become an economic hermit.  You could also do this today and avoid federal payroll and income taxes.  The FAIR tax has merit but it merits should not be exaggerated."
      With the Fairtax tax Pre-bate I have a choice, put it a S&P 500 account or spend it on beer, or etc. I am not sure just yet what I going to do, but here is a link which explains how much money in prebate the Federal Government will give you ever month in the form of a debit card.


      Karl overlooked that point when he wrote the above statement. The prebate is designed to cover the cost of anything you buy up to the poverty level. Tax deduction are controlled by Topeka and Washington D.C and are obsolete under the Fairtax.

      You, not Congress, decide just what you will spend you pre-bate on or save it. Tax deduction are for losers.

      You can follow Karl and take an autarky classes and not take the prebate, or follow me and drink beer. It's your choice. I drink IBC Root beer by the way.

      If the Fairtax would have been passed 5 years ago, I would be receiving $529 month in a monthly pre-bate check for the last 5 years. That's allot of IBC Root beer. I might need to try the S & P plan or maybe join the AFP.

      I hope Karl could tell us what rate a state version of the Fairtax would cost, and what the state prebate would be. I would like to be a pre-bate collector. Maybe I could get county pre-bate and avoid that dam arena tax.

      But Wait there is MORE!!

      Now the Fairtax is a 30% National Retail Sales tax, which figured as a 23% inclusive tax on your sales receipt. On the shelf it will be 23% of the cost of the sticker price.

      One might say that pre-bate will go pretty fast at that rate. People make the classic mistake of not allowing for the removal of embedded taxes which are currently in every new product or service you buy.

      On average the embedded tax rate is 22% for products and 25% for services, so one might might believe that prebate is for the 1% difference. Think again

      Image removed by sender.
      Image removed by sender.

      If you noticed $107.30 of food under the current system is $107.09 under the Fairtax. The gas example is $28.39 now, under the Fairtax $28.73.

      But Wait there is MORE!!

      Unlike ExtenZe which claims to increase that certain part of male anatomy. The Fairtax increase the anatomy women really care about, your paycheck.

      Wipe yours out and take out federal taxes, medicare, and FICA and then divide you prebate amount and by the number of paychecks checks you receive each month and add it to your paycheck. Can you afford 34 cents more a fill up with a tax free paycheck with a prebate?

      Thank you AFFT, Mike Huckabee, AFP, KTN, ClubforGrowth.com, etc......for ExtenZe my paycheck and letting me, not the government, decide just how much tax I pay with the Fairtax.

      That's twice you have accused me of lying about the Fairtax on the KCN Karl.

      James A. Hodges
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