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Re: rotary data dial +/-

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  • bimmerfan222
    This is a mod I ll be attempting to do to my 800 MkI. I ve yet to see an 800 with this simple, yet very helpful mod and am a little dumbfounded that it has not
    Message 1 of 21 , Apr 8, 2012
      This is a mod I'll be attempting to do to my 800 MkI.

      I've yet to see an 800 with this simple, yet very helpful mod and am a little dumbfounded that it has not yet been done.

      Personally, I can't stand the push button Up/Down value keys. Rotary encoders work WAYYY better IMO.

      The link you provided is a custom built board.. his price is a little steep and I believe it can be built for around $10 USD, sans a custom PCB. I'm sure most of his cost is high due to that custom PCB.

      The version I think I may build will use a CD4011 and CD4013.. but there are other mfr's who build similar chips that integrate nice features like "debouncing" circuits inside the quadrature decoder.
      Debouncing is key to getting a smooth signal out to the triggers, otherwise you'd end up getting wild jumps in up/down values when moving the knob slow or fast.

      An optical encoder would be nice and smooth to use.. could even be a mouse scroll wheel placed next to the Up/Down keys and inserted parallel to the keys so you can choose to either move the knob/wheel or push the buttons. And you dont have "bounce" issues with optical encoders like you do with mechanical ones.
      But.. I think I'd rather use a mechanical encoder.. the kind that looks like a regular potentiometer, but with the "notches" you can feel when turning it. Having one that is totally smooth like the optical ones may not have the right feel to it.

      -Blaine



      --- In korgpolyex@yahoogroups.com, "k9k9dog" <domgoold@...> wrote:
      >
      > anyone like the look of this?
      >
      > http://go.to/datadial
      >
      > seems like it could be a nice addition, espec'
      > to the ex800.
      >
    • Gordon JC Pearc e
      ... No, you won t. You ll get a rotary encoder that has to be turned painfully slowly to avoid it missing steps. The buttons are already debounced, and have
      Message 2 of 21 , Apr 9, 2012
        On 08/04/12 16:09, bimmerfan222 wrote:

        > I've yet to see an 800 with this simple, yet very helpful mod and am a little dumbfounded that it has not yet been done.
        > Debouncing is key to getting a smooth signal out to the triggers, otherwise you'd end up getting wild jumps in up/down values when moving the knob slow or fast.

        No, you won't.

        You'll get a rotary encoder that has to be turned painfully slowly to
        avoid it missing steps. The buttons are already debounced, and have
        quite a long debounce time.

        --
        Gordonjcp MM0YEQ
      • bimmerfan222
        Hi Gordon, thanks for the reply. Surely there is a way to slip in a rotary encoder to mimic a up down value keys.. I was thinking of using this decoder by
        Message 3 of 21 , Apr 9, 2012
          Hi Gordon, thanks for the reply.

          Surely there is a way to slip in a rotary encoder to mimic a up\down value keys..

          I was thinking of using this decoder by elmelectronics.com

          http://elmelectronics.com/DSheets/ELM402DS.pdf

          couldnt the outputs be placed in parallel with the value switches?


          It can be set to generate 2.0msec pulses on two channels




          --- In korgpolyex@yahoogroups.com, Gordon JC Pearc e <gordon@...> wrote:
          >
          > On 08/04/12 16:09, bimmerfan222 wrote:
          >
          > > I've yet to see an 800 with this simple, yet very helpful mod and am a little dumbfounded that it has not yet been done.
          > > Debouncing is key to getting a smooth signal out to the triggers, otherwise you'd end up getting wild jumps in up/down values when moving the knob slow or fast.
          >
          > No, you won't.
          >
          > You'll get a rotary encoder that has to be turned painfully slowly to
          > avoid it missing steps. The buttons are already debounced, and have
          > quite a long debounce time.
          >
          > --
          > Gordonjcp MM0YEQ
          >
        • Michael Hawkins
          Keep in mind that the HAWK mod has a joystick parameter control option that lets you use the X and Y axis to select parameters and set their values. But, I
          Message 4 of 21 , Apr 10, 2012
            Keep in mind that the HAWK mod has a joystick parameter control option that lets you use the X and Y axis to select parameters and set their values.

            But, I would be interested in assisting with putting an encode or two or more into operation.

            Can you point me at the mechanical encoder you might be considering using?

            Mike


            From: bimmerfan222 <bperkins211@...>
            To: korgpolyex@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Monday, April 9, 2012 10:26 PM
            Subject: [korgpolyex] Re: rotary data dial +/-

             

            Hi Gordon, thanks for the reply.

            Surely there is a way to slip in a rotary encoder to mimic a up\down value keys..

            I was thinking of using this decoder by elmelectronics.com

            http://elmelectronics.com/DSheets/ELM402DS.pdf

            couldnt the outputs be placed in parallel with the value switches?

            It can be set to generate 2.0msec pulses on two channels

            --- In korgpolyex@yahoogroups.com, Gordon JC Pearc e <gordon@...> wrote:
            >
            > On 08/04/12 16:09, bimmerfan222 wrote:
            >
            > > I've yet to see an 800 with this simple, yet very helpful mod and am a little dumbfounded that it has not yet been done.
            > > Debouncing is key to getting a smooth signal out to the triggers, otherwise you'd end up getting wild jumps in up/down values when moving the knob slow or fast.
            >
            > No, you won't.
            >
            > You'll get a rotary encoder that has to be turned painfully slowly to
            > avoid it missing steps. The buttons are already debounced, and have
            > quite a long debounce time.
            >
            > --
            > Gordonjcp MM0YEQ
            >



          • Ullrich Peter
            Hi! Regarding my email from yesterday. I didn’t have a look at the datasheet of the ELM402. I thought that it is the datasheet of the encoder itself and not
            Message 5 of 21 , Apr 10, 2012

              Hi!

               

              Regarding my email from yesterday. I didn’t have a look at the datasheet of the ELM402. I thought that

              it is the datasheet of the encoder itself and not a converter chip.

               

              The chip is nice (quite similar to my solution) but the output pulse width can only be selected between

              0.2 or 2ms.

              I would say that 2ms will be the better value for synths as the scan rate is normally in the range of 100 to 2000Hz.

              So I think it might fit for 80% of the synths.  You could get problems if the scan rate is slow because the

              short pulses could be missed. Some older synth scan quite slow…

               

              If you only want the chips then I could offer you my chips as well. Prices would be the same as the

              EML402 (8.50$ DIL / 10$ SMD) but compare to these chips you can adjust the pulse/pause time via
              the encoder – more flexibility that should match for every synth.

              So it is cheaper than the complete datadial module but then you have to integrate the chip on a PCB…

               

              For the SMD sockets I would need a lead time as I would have to buy a SMD test socket for chip

              programming and would have to build a programming adapter.

               

              Ciao
              Peter


              From: bimmerfan222 <bperkins211@...>
              To: korgpolyex@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Monday, April 9, 2012 10:26 PM
              Subject: [korgpolyex] Re: rotary data dial +/-

               

               


              Hi Gordon, thanks for the reply.

              Surely there is a way to slip in a rotary encoder to mimic a up\down value keys..

              I was thinking of using this decoder by elmelectronics.com

              http://elmelectronics.com/DSheets/ELM402DS.pdf

              couldnt the outputs be placed in parallel with the value switches?

              It can be set to generate 2.0msec pulses on two channels

              --- In korgpolyex@yahoogroups.com, Gordon JC Pearc e <gordon@...> wrote:
              >
              > On 08/04/12 16:09, bimmerfan222 wrote:
              >
              > > I've yet to see an 800 with this simple, yet very helpful mod and am a little dumbfounded that it has not yet been done.
              > > Debouncing is key to getting a smooth signal out to the triggers, otherwise you'd end up getting wild jumps in up/down values when moving the knob slow or fast.
              >
              > No, you won't.
              >
              > You'll get a rotary encoder that has to be turned painfully slowly to
              > avoid it missing steps. The buttons are already debounced, and have
              > quite a long debounce time.
              >
              > --
              > Gordonjcp MM0YEQ
              >

               




              The information contained in this e-mail message is privileged and confidential and is for the exclusive use of the addressee. The person who receives this message and who is not the addressee, one of his employees or an agent entitled to hand it over to the addressee, is informed that he may not use, disclose or reproduce the contents thereof, and is kindly asked to notify the sender and delete the e-mail immediately.
            • Ullrich Peter
              Sorry, this was the email I wanted to send yesterday - but it was still in the outbox... ... Hi! Regarding the encoder problem. Simple connecting the encoder
              Message 6 of 21 , Apr 10, 2012
                Sorry, this was the email I wanted to send yesterday - but it was still in the outbox...
                ----------------

                Hi!

                Regarding the encoder problem.

                Simple connecting the encoder in parallel to the value keys normally doesn't make sense as the grey code (or in other words a quadrature signal) output by the encoder doesn't fit. You might get some reaction but not as needed.

                That’s why my datadial http://go.to/datadial adds a little microcontroller that converts the pulses to plus and minus keypresses.
                I first used a discrete circuit with monoflop and so - it is also working but:

                - the time a key has to be pressed so that the synthesizer can read it perfectly has to be set for but output signals (resistor, potentiometer or capacitor change) - keep in mind that you have to test some time to find a perfect value.
                - You need more ICs and so more pcb space that leads to a bigger module that has to be built into the synth.

                So these disadvantages of my first version lead me to the microcontroller solution:

                - The microcontroller reads the encoder.
                - Plus(minus keypress simulations are controlled by the microcontroller - analog switches are switched in parallel to the plus/minus buttons.
                - The pulse and pause time can be programmed via the encoder - you first have to enter a special combination of left/right combinations (safe locking) and then the timeout can be set with the encoder in nearly millisecond steps ad these value is stored in the EEPROM in the microcontroller. So you only have to set this time once you found the perfect timeout - it is stored nonvolatile.
                - You can even change this setting if the datadial is already built in as no potentiometer is needed.

                As my design is not patented I can't stop anybody from building a similar thing on his own.
                If you have all parts at home you might get it cheaper. I can't sell it cheaper as I have to cover my costs (parts, development and handmade production time, test time, programming and testing adapter costs).

                All I can say is: the principle works very fine, is flexible and synthesizer editing with it makes more fun than
                Playing around with those ugly plus/minus keypresses. I like intuitive synth programming...
                Of course I can't switch a digital programmed synth into an analog one but the programming feeling by turning a knob is much nicer.

                I for myself have installed it in my Kawai K3m and Casio CZ101. Other synth like the Poly61 and Poly800 will follow.

                Ciao
                Peter

                http://www.ullrich.at.tt
                The information contained in this e-mail message is privileged and
                confidential and is for the exclusive use of the addressee. The person
                who receives this message and who is not the addressee, one of his
                employees or an agent entitled to hand it over to the addressee, is
                informed that he may not use, disclose or reproduce the contents
                thereof, and is kindly asked to notify the sender and delete the e-mail
                immediately.
              • bimmerfan222
                Thanks for the interest in the encoder mod Mike. I ll try to locate a couple good encoders with data sheets if possible. My idea is to possibly use a dial that
                Message 7 of 21 , Apr 10, 2012
                  Thanks for the interest in the encoder mod Mike.

                  I'll try to locate a couple good encoders with data sheets if possible.


                  My idea is to possibly use a dial that also has a momentary push switch integrated in it. That way you could edit a parameter, then push the knob down to switch to the next parameter...

                  It would be nice to use encoders that are permanently used for filter cutoff and resonance.. there's bound to be other tricks as well to do with these handy devices.. even to use a mouse scroll wheel (which most also have a momentary switch to push down as well).

                  -Blaine



                  --- In korgpolyex@yahoogroups.com, Michael Hawkins <korgpolyex800@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Keep in mind that the HAWK mod has a joystick parameter control option that lets you use the X and Y axis to select parameters and set their values.
                  >
                  > But, I would be interested in assisting with putting an encode or two or more into operation.
                  >
                  > Can you point me at the mechanical encoder you might be considering using?
                  >
                  > Mike
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ________________________________
                  > From: bimmerfan222 <bperkins211@...>
                  > To: korgpolyex@yahoogroups.com
                  > Sent: Monday, April 9, 2012 10:26 PM
                  > Subject: [korgpolyex] Re: rotary data dial +/-
                  >
                  >
                  >  
                  >
                  > Hi Gordon, thanks for the reply.
                  >
                  > Surely there is a way to slip in a rotary encoder to mimic a up\down value keys..
                  >
                  > I was thinking of using this decoder by elmelectronics.com
                  >
                  > http://elmelectronics.com/DSheets/ELM402DS.pdf
                  >
                  > couldnt the outputs be placed in parallel with the value switches?
                  >
                  > It can be set to generate 2.0msec pulses on two channels
                  >
                  > --- In korgpolyex@yahoogroups.com, Gordon JC Pearc e <gordon@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > On 08/04/12 16:09, bimmerfan222 wrote:
                  > >
                  > > > I've yet to see an 800 with this simple, yet very helpful mod and am a little dumbfounded that it has not yet been done.
                  > > > Debouncing is key to getting a smooth signal out to the triggers, otherwise you'd end up getting wild jumps in up/down values when moving the knob slow or fast.
                  > >
                  > > No, you won't.
                  > >
                  > > You'll get a rotary encoder that has to be turned painfully slowly to
                  > > avoid it missing steps. The buttons are already debounced, and have
                  > > quite a long debounce time.
                  > >
                  > > --
                  > > Gordonjcp MM0YEQ
                  > >
                  >
                • bimmerfan222
                  Hope this link works.. http://www.mouser.com/Search/Refine.aspx?FS=TRUE&N=4294759693+5502072+4292822897+1323043 if that don t work, try searching PEC09 on
                  Message 8 of 21 , Apr 10, 2012
                    Hope this link works..

                    http://www.mouser.com/Search/Refine.aspx?FS=TRUE&N=4294759693+5502072+4292822897+1323043

                    if that don't work, try searching "PEC09" on Mouser and it should pull up a list of encoders.

                    heres a link to a pdf

                    http://www.bourns.com/data/global/pdfs/PEC09.pdf

                    that is the general description.. then its a matter of narrowing down how many dentents you want, I'd think a dial that you can feel notches in while turning would be best.
                    These encoders are quite common by many mfr's and very similar. I picked Mouser because they are a common supplier of parts.

                    The bourns dials seem to be either 30PPR (pulses per revolution) or 12ppr, but vary from 30, 24 and 12 detents. The 30 detent and 0 detent (smooth, I assume) are the only ones with 30ppr. the other two detent versions are 12ppr.

                    here are more encoders by bourns on Mouser

                    http://www.mouser.com/bournsproaudio/#tabs-5

                    Apparently they have encoders with LED's that light up the shaft.. which could be a really cool way to indicate what mode the dial is in.


                    hth and lmk what you think

                    -Blaine



                    --- In korgpolyex@yahoogroups.com, Michael Hawkins <korgpolyex800@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Keep in mind that the HAWK mod has a joystick parameter control option that lets you use the X and Y axis to select parameters and set their values.
                    >
                    > But, I would be interested in assisting with putting an encode or two or more into operation.
                    >
                    > Can you point me at the mechanical encoder you might be considering using?
                    >
                    > Mike
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ________________________________
                    > From: bimmerfan222 <bperkins211@...>
                    > To: korgpolyex@yahoogroups.com
                    > Sent: Monday, April 9, 2012 10:26 PM
                    > Subject: [korgpolyex] Re: rotary data dial +/-
                    >
                    >
                    >  
                    >
                    > Hi Gordon, thanks for the reply.
                    >
                    > Surely there is a way to slip in a rotary encoder to mimic a up\down value keys..
                    >
                    > I was thinking of using this decoder by elmelectronics.com
                    >
                    > http://elmelectronics.com/DSheets/ELM402DS.pdf
                    >
                    > couldnt the outputs be placed in parallel with the value switches?
                    >
                    > It can be set to generate 2.0msec pulses on two channels
                    >
                    > --- In korgpolyex@yahoogroups.com, Gordon JC Pearc e <gordon@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > On 08/04/12 16:09, bimmerfan222 wrote:
                    > >
                    > > > I've yet to see an 800 with this simple, yet very helpful mod and am a little dumbfounded that it has not yet been done.
                    > > > Debouncing is key to getting a smooth signal out to the triggers, otherwise you'd end up getting wild jumps in up/down values when moving the knob slow or fast.
                    > >
                    > > No, you won't.
                    > >
                    > > You'll get a rotary encoder that has to be turned painfully slowly to
                    > > avoid it missing steps. The buttons are already debounced, and have
                    > > quite a long debounce time.
                    > >
                    > > --
                    > > Gordonjcp MM0YEQ
                    > >
                    >
                  • bimmerfan222
                    Hi Peter- Thanks for taking time to explain your datadial. I now see why your board and design costs more.. it s that ability to set the pulse width/time..
                    Message 9 of 21 , Apr 10, 2012
                      Hi Peter-

                      Thanks for taking time to explain your datadial.

                      I now see why your board and design costs more.. it's that ability to set the pulse width/time.. very clever indeed.
                      And I think we all know that having custom cast circuit boards do not come cheap! That alone is probably half the cost when it comes to low quantities.

                      Very nice contribution to the synth modder hobbiest community.

                      Regarding the ELM402, I agree that the 2ms PW would be the better one to use on a slightly slow 8502 MP. The datasheet said it is built in mind for CMOS applications.. but actually testing it on the synth would be the only real way to find out.



                      -Blaine


                      --- In korgpolyex@yahoogroups.com, Ullrich Peter <peter.ullrich@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Hi!
                      >
                      > Regarding my email from yesterday. I didn’t have a look at the datasheet of the ELM402. I thought that
                      > it is the datasheet of the encoder itself and not a converter chip.
                      >
                      > The chip is nice (quite similar to my solution) but the output pulse width can only be selected between
                      > 0.2 or 2ms.
                      > I would say that 2ms will be the better value for synths as the scan rate is normally in the range of 100 to 2000Hz.
                      > So I think it might fit for 80% of the synths. You could get problems if the scan rate is slow because the
                      > short pulses could be missed. Some older synth scan quite slow…
                      >
                      > If you only want the chips then I could offer you my chips as well. Prices would be the same as the
                      > EML402 (8.50$ DIL / 10$ SMD) but compare to these chips you can adjust the pulse/pause time via
                      > the encoder â€" more flexibility that should match for every synth.
                      > So it is cheaper than the complete datadial module but then you have to integrate the chip on a PCB…
                      >
                      > For the SMD sockets I would need a lead time as I would have to buy a SMD test socket for chip
                      > programming and would have to build a programming adapter.
                      >
                      > Ciao
                      > Peter
                      >
                      > http://www.ullrich.at.tt
                      > http://go.to/datadial (synth addon)
                      >
                      > ________________________________
                      > From: bimmerfan222 <bperkins211@...<mailto:bperkins211@...>>
                      > To: korgpolyex@yahoogroups.com<mailto:korgpolyex@yahoogroups.com>
                      > Sent: Monday, April 9, 2012 10:26 PM
                      > Subject: [korgpolyex] Re: rotary data dial +/-
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Hi Gordon, thanks for the reply.
                      >
                      > Surely there is a way to slip in a rotary encoder to mimic a up\down value keys..
                      >
                      > I was thinking of using this decoder by elmelectronics.com<http://elmelectronics.com>
                      >
                      > http://elmelectronics.com/DSheets/ELM402DS.pdf
                      >
                      > couldnt the outputs be placed in parallel with the value switches?
                      >
                      > It can be set to generate 2.0msec pulses on two channels
                      >
                      > --- In korgpolyex@yahoogroups.com<mailto:korgpolyex%40yahoogroups.com>, Gordon JC Pearc e <gordon@<mailto:gordon@>> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > On 08/04/12 16:09, bimmerfan222 wrote:
                      > >
                      > > > I've yet to see an 800 with this simple, yet very helpful mod and am a little dumbfounded that it has not yet been done.
                      > > > Debouncing is key to getting a smooth signal out to the triggers, otherwise you'd end up getting wild jumps in up/down values when moving the knob slow or fast.
                      > >
                      > > No, you won't.
                      > >
                      > > You'll get a rotary encoder that has to be turned painfully slowly to
                      > > avoid it missing steps. The buttons are already debounced, and have
                      > > quite a long debounce time.
                      > >
                      > > --
                      > > Gordonjcp MM0YEQ
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > The information contained in this e-mail message is privileged and
                      > confidential and is for the exclusive use of the addressee. The person
                      > who receives this message and who is not the addressee, one of his
                      > employees or an agent entitled to hand it over to the addressee, is
                      > informed that he may not use, disclose or reproduce the contents
                      > thereof, and is kindly asked to notify the sender and delete the e-mail
                      > immediately.
                      >
                    • Ullrich Peter
                      Regarding the selection of the encoders: Keep in mind that you buy the correct version. You have the two values pulses per revolution (ppr) and detents per
                      Message 10 of 21 , Apr 11, 2012
                        Regarding the selection of the encoders:

                        Keep in mind that you buy the correct version. You have the two values pulses per revolution (ppr) and detents per revolution.
                        Some chips or decoding circuits need a full pulse per detent others only need a half pulse in the quadrature timing.
                        For the user feeling the detents (mechanical clicks) are interesting, the pulses are only important for the electronics behind the encoder.

                        If you buy the wrong encoder you get one pulse every two steps or 2 pulses per step and not one pulse per step as needed.

                        Ciao
                        Peter

                        -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
                        Von: korgpolyex@yahoogroups.com [mailto:korgpolyex@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von bimmerfan222
                        Gesendet: Mittwoch, 11. April 2012 05:16
                        An: korgpolyex@yahoogroups.com
                        Betreff: [korgpolyex] Encoders at Mouser




                        Hope this link works..

                        http://www.mouser.com/Search/Refine.aspx?FS=TRUE&N=4294759693+5502072+4292822897+1323043

                        if that don't work, try searching "PEC09" on Mouser and it should pull up a list of encoders.

                        heres a link to a pdf

                        http://www.bourns.com/data/global/pdfs/PEC09.pdf

                        that is the general description.. then its a matter of narrowing down how many dentents you want, I'd think a dial that you can feel notches in while turning would be best.
                        These encoders are quite common by many mfr's and very similar. I picked Mouser because they are a common supplier of parts.

                        The bourns dials seem to be either 30PPR (pulses per revolution) or 12ppr, but vary from 30, 24 and 12 detents. The 30 detent and 0 detent (smooth, I assume) are the only ones with 30ppr. the other two detent versions are 12ppr.

                        here are more encoders by bourns on Mouser

                        http://www.mouser.com/bournsproaudio/#tabs-5

                        Apparently they have encoders with LED's that light up the shaft.. which could be a really cool way to indicate what mode the dial is in.


                        hth and lmk what you think

                        -Blaine



                        --- In korgpolyex@yahoogroups.com, Michael Hawkins <korgpolyex800@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Keep in mind that the HAWK mod has a joystick parameter control option that lets you use the X and Y axis to select parameters and set their values.
                        >
                        > But, I would be interested in assisting with putting an encode or two or more into operation.
                        >
                        > Can you point me at the mechanical encoder you might be considering using?
                        >
                        > Mike
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > ________________________________
                        > From: bimmerfan222 <bperkins211@...>
                        > To: korgpolyex@yahoogroups.com
                        > Sent: Monday, April 9, 2012 10:26 PM
                        > Subject: [korgpolyex] Re: rotary data dial +/-
                        >
                        >
                        > Â
                        >
                        > Hi Gordon, thanks for the reply.
                        >
                        > Surely there is a way to slip in a rotary encoder to mimic a up\down value keys..
                        >
                        > I was thinking of using this decoder by elmelectronics.com
                        >
                        > http://elmelectronics.com/DSheets/ELM402DS.pdf
                        >
                        > couldnt the outputs be placed in parallel with the value switches?
                        >
                        > It can be set to generate 2.0msec pulses on two channels
                        >
                        > --- In korgpolyex@yahoogroups.com, Gordon JC Pearc e <gordon@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > On 08/04/12 16:09, bimmerfan222 wrote:
                        > >
                        > > > I've yet to see an 800 with this simple, yet very helpful mod and am a little dumbfounded that it has not yet been done.
                        > > > Debouncing is key to getting a smooth signal out to the triggers, otherwise you'd end up getting wild jumps in up/down values when moving the knob slow or fast.
                        > >
                        > > No, you won't.
                        > >
                        > > You'll get a rotary encoder that has to be turned painfully slowly
                        > > to avoid it missing steps. The buttons are already debounced, and
                        > > have quite a long debounce time.
                        > >
                        > > --
                        > > Gordonjcp MM0YEQ
                        > >
                        >




                        ------------------------------------

                        Feel free to upload into the files section any sysex dumps and tape dumps of patches that you may have but please discuss (with the entire group) the posting of other files *before* posting them. This helps us to keep redundant information from showing up everywhere and also allows us to constantly improve the format and structure of the documentation. We talk about the HAWK-800 quite a bit but we also discuss and help owners of the original Poly-800 models. So don't be shy if you haven't got the HAWK-800.Yahoo! Groups Links




                        The information contained in this e-mail message is privileged and
                        confidential and is for the exclusive use of the addressee. The person
                        who receives this message and who is not the addressee, one of his
                        employees or an agent entitled to hand it over to the addressee, is
                        informed that he may not use, disclose or reproduce the contents
                        thereof, and is kindly asked to notify the sender and delete the e-mail
                        immediately.
                      • Ullrich Peter
                        Hi Blaine! You are welcome! Regarding the ELM402: As it is intended for CMOS this would not disturb as the chip alone is not enough. You would add CMOS analog
                        Message 11 of 21 , Apr 11, 2012
                          Hi Blaine!

                          You are welcome!

                          Regarding the ELM402: As it is intended for CMOS this would not disturb as the chip alone is not enough.
                          You would add CMOS analog switches anyway if you want the addon installed in parallel with the
                          Synths plus/minus buttons. And even if the other parts are NMOS you will get no problems as long as the
                          Voltage range is maximum 5V. And the advantage is that you can use it in wide voltage range from 2 to 5V!

                          Remark: My datadial works in the range from 3.3 to 5V (as I programmed the brownout detector to get a well
                          working reset of the microcontroller).

                          Ciao
                          Peter

                          -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
                          Von: korgpolyex@yahoogroups.com [mailto:korgpolyex@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von bimmerfan222
                          Gesendet: Mittwoch, 11. April 2012 05:35
                          An: korgpolyex@yahoogroups.com
                          Betreff: [korgpolyex] @ Ulrich--Re: rotary data dial +/-

                          Hi Peter-

                          Thanks for taking time to explain your datadial.

                          I now see why your board and design costs more.. it's that ability to set the pulse width/time.. very clever indeed.
                          And I think we all know that having custom cast circuit boards do not come cheap! That alone is probably half the cost when it comes to low quantities.

                          Very nice contribution to the synth modder hobbiest community.

                          Regarding the ELM402, I agree that the 2ms PW would be the better one to use on a slightly slow 8502 MP. The datasheet said it is built in mind for CMOS applications.. but actually testing it on the synth would be the only real way to find out.



                          -Blaine


                          --- In korgpolyex@yahoogroups.com, Ullrich Peter <peter.ullrich@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Hi!
                          >
                          > Regarding my email from yesterday. I didn’t have a look at the
                          > datasheet of the ELM402. I thought that it is the datasheet of the encoder itself and not a converter chip.
                          >
                          > The chip is nice (quite similar to my solution) but the output pulse
                          > width can only be selected between
                          > 0.2 or 2ms.
                          > I would say that 2ms will be the better value for synths as the scan rate is normally in the range of 100 to 2000Hz.
                          > So I think it might fit for 80% of the synths. You could get problems
                          > if the scan rate is slow because the short pulses could be missed.
                          > Some older synth scan quite slow…
                          >
                          > If you only want the chips then I could offer you my chips as well.
                          > Prices would be the same as the
                          > EML402 (8.50$ DIL / 10$ SMD) but compare to these chips you can adjust
                          > the pulse/pause time via the encoder â€" more flexibility that should match for every synth.
                          > So it is cheaper than the complete datadial module but then you have
                          > to integrate the chip on a PCB…
                          >
                          > For the SMD sockets I would need a lead time as I would have to buy a
                          > SMD test socket for chip programming and would have to build a programming adapter.
                          >
                          > Ciao
                          > Peter
                          >
                          > http://www.ullrich.at.tt
                          > http://go.to/datadial (synth addon)
                          >
                          > ________________________________
                          > From: bimmerfan222 <bperkins211@...<mailto:bperkins211@...>>
                          > To: korgpolyex@yahoogroups.com<mailto:korgpolyex@yahoogroups.com>
                          > Sent: Monday, April 9, 2012 10:26 PM
                          > Subject: [korgpolyex] Re: rotary data dial +/-
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Hi Gordon, thanks for the reply.
                          >
                          > Surely there is a way to slip in a rotary encoder to mimic a up\down value keys..
                          >
                          > I was thinking of using this decoder by
                          > elmelectronics.com<http://elmelectronics.com>
                          >
                          > http://elmelectronics.com/DSheets/ELM402DS.pdf
                          >
                          > couldnt the outputs be placed in parallel with the value switches?
                          >
                          > It can be set to generate 2.0msec pulses on two channels
                          >
                          > --- In korgpolyex@yahoogroups.com<mailto:korgpolyex%40yahoogroups.com>, Gordon JC Pearc e <gordon@<mailto:gordon@>> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > On 08/04/12 16:09, bimmerfan222 wrote:
                          > >
                          > > > I've yet to see an 800 with this simple, yet very helpful mod and am a little dumbfounded that it has not yet been done.
                          > > > Debouncing is key to getting a smooth signal out to the triggers, otherwise you'd end up getting wild jumps in up/down values when moving the knob slow or fast.
                          > >
                          > > No, you won't.
                          > >
                          > > You'll get a rotary encoder that has to be turned painfully slowly
                          > > to avoid it missing steps. The buttons are already debounced, and
                          > > have quite a long debounce time.
                          > >
                          > > --
                          > > Gordonjcp MM0YEQ
                          > >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > The information contained in this e-mail message is privileged and
                          > confidential and is for the exclusive use of the addressee. The person
                          > who receives this message and who is not the addressee, one of his
                          > employees or an agent entitled to hand it over to the addressee, is
                          > informed that he may not use, disclose or reproduce the contents
                          > thereof, and is kindly asked to notify the sender and delete the
                          > e-mail immediately.
                          >




                          ------------------------------------

                          Feel free to upload into the files section any sysex dumps and tape dumps of patches that you may have but please discuss (with the entire group) the posting of other files *before* posting them. This helps us to keep redundant information from showing up everywhere and also allows us to constantly improve the format and structure of the documentation. We talk about the HAWK-800 quite a bit but we also discuss and help owners of the original Poly-800 models. So don't be shy if you haven't got the HAWK-800.Yahoo! Groups Links



                          The information contained in this e-mail message is privileged and
                          confidential and is for the exclusive use of the addressee. The person
                          who receives this message and who is not the addressee, one of his
                          employees or an agent entitled to hand it over to the addressee, is
                          informed that he may not use, disclose or reproduce the contents
                          thereof, and is kindly asked to notify the sender and delete the e-mail
                          immediately.
                        • bimmerfan222
                          Hmmm... I m thinking maybe Mike might be able to do a little bit of code magic to make the CPU scan for activity from rotary encoders/decoders and direct their
                          Message 12 of 21 , Apr 14, 2012
                            Hmmm...

                            I'm thinking maybe Mike might be able to do a little bit of code magic to make the CPU scan for activity from rotary encoders/decoders and direct their signals to the appropriate parameters.

                            Wouldnt it be possible to add another demultiplexer in the Korg.. pardon my ignorance if I get the language incorrect.. but aren't the original push buttons on the 800's in a "matrix"... so that a demultiplexer reads the matrix and converts it into a data stream for the CPU to read?

                            I'm just thinking that instead of trying to build a mechanical latching system (to emu the real push button switches), use direct pulse signals from several encoders/decoders that would send just signals out direct. Bypassing the switches all together.

                            -Blaine



                            --- In korgpolyex@yahoogroups.com, Ullrich Peter <peter.ullrich@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Hi Blaine!
                            >
                            > You are welcome!
                            >
                            > Regarding the ELM402: As it is intended for CMOS this would not disturb as the chip alone is not enough.
                            > You would add CMOS analog switches anyway if you want the addon installed in parallel with the
                            > Synths plus/minus buttons. And even if the other parts are NMOS you will get no problems as long as the
                            > Voltage range is maximum 5V. And the advantage is that you can use it in wide voltage range from 2 to 5V!
                            >
                            > Remark: My datadial works in the range from 3.3 to 5V (as I programmed the brownout detector to get a well
                            > working reset of the microcontroller).
                            >
                            > Ciao
                            > Peter
                            >
                            > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
                            > Von: korgpolyex@yahoogroups.com [mailto:korgpolyex@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von bimmerfan222
                            > Gesendet: Mittwoch, 11. April 2012 05:35
                            > An: korgpolyex@yahoogroups.com
                            > Betreff: [korgpolyex] @ Ulrich--Re: rotary data dial +/-
                            >
                            > Hi Peter-
                            >
                            > Thanks for taking time to explain your datadial.
                            >
                            > I now see why your board and design costs more.. it's that ability to set the pulse width/time.. very clever indeed.
                            > And I think we all know that having custom cast circuit boards do not come cheap! That alone is probably half the cost when it comes to low quantities.
                            >
                            > Very nice contribution to the synth modder hobbiest community.
                            >
                            > Regarding the ELM402, I agree that the 2ms PW would be the better one to use on a slightly slow 8502 MP. The datasheet said it is built in mind for CMOS applications.. but actually testing it on the synth would be the only real way to find out.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > -Blaine
                            >
                            >
                            > --- In korgpolyex@yahoogroups.com, Ullrich Peter <peter.ullrich@> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Hi!
                            > >
                            > > Regarding my email from yesterday. I didn’t have a look at the
                            > > datasheet of the ELM402. I thought that it is the datasheet of the encoder itself and not a converter chip.
                            > >
                            > > The chip is nice (quite similar to my solution) but the output pulse
                            > > width can only be selected between
                            > > 0.2 or 2ms.
                            > > I would say that 2ms will be the better value for synths as the scan rate is normally in the range of 100 to 2000Hz.
                            > > So I think it might fit for 80% of the synths. You could get problems
                            > > if the scan rate is slow because the short pulses could be missed.
                            > > Some older synth scan quite slow…
                            > >
                            > > If you only want the chips then I could offer you my chips as well.
                            > > Prices would be the same as the
                            > > EML402 (8.50$ DIL / 10$ SMD) but compare to these chips you can adjust
                            > > the pulse/pause time via the encoder â€" more flexibility that should match for every synth.
                            > > So it is cheaper than the complete datadial module but then you have
                            > > to integrate the chip on a PCB…
                            > >
                            > > For the SMD sockets I would need a lead time as I would have to buy a
                            > > SMD test socket for chip programming and would have to build a programming adapter.
                            > >
                            > > Ciao
                            > > Peter
                            > >
                            > > http://www.ullrich.at.tt
                            > > http://go.to/datadial (synth addon)
                            > >
                            > > ________________________________
                            > > From: bimmerfan222 <bperkins211@<mailto:bperkins211@>>
                            > > To: korgpolyex@yahoogroups.com<mailto:korgpolyex@yahoogroups.com>
                            > > Sent: Monday, April 9, 2012 10:26 PM
                            > > Subject: [korgpolyex] Re: rotary data dial +/-
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > Hi Gordon, thanks for the reply.
                            > >
                            > > Surely there is a way to slip in a rotary encoder to mimic a up\down value keys..
                            > >
                            > > I was thinking of using this decoder by
                            > > elmelectronics.com<http://elmelectronics.com>
                            > >
                            > > http://elmelectronics.com/DSheets/ELM402DS.pdf
                            > >
                            > > couldnt the outputs be placed in parallel with the value switches?
                            > >
                            > > It can be set to generate 2.0msec pulses on two channels
                            > >
                            > > --- In korgpolyex@yahoogroups.com<mailto:korgpolyex%40yahoogroups.com>, Gordon JC Pearc e <gordon@<mailto:gordon@>> wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > On 08/04/12 16:09, bimmerfan222 wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > > I've yet to see an 800 with this simple, yet very helpful mod and am a little dumbfounded that it has not yet been done.
                            > > > > Debouncing is key to getting a smooth signal out to the triggers, otherwise you'd end up getting wild jumps in up/down values when moving the knob slow or fast.
                            > > >
                            > > > No, you won't.
                            > > >
                            > > > You'll get a rotary encoder that has to be turned painfully slowly
                            > > > to avoid it missing steps. The buttons are already debounced, and
                            > > > have quite a long debounce time.
                            > > >
                            > > > --
                            > > > Gordonjcp MM0YEQ
                            > > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > The information contained in this e-mail message is privileged and
                            > > confidential and is for the exclusive use of the addressee. The person
                            > > who receives this message and who is not the addressee, one of his
                            > > employees or an agent entitled to hand it over to the addressee, is
                            > > informed that he may not use, disclose or reproduce the contents
                            > > thereof, and is kindly asked to notify the sender and delete the
                            > > e-mail immediately.
                            > >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > ------------------------------------
                            >
                            > Feel free to upload into the files section any sysex dumps and tape dumps of patches that you may have but please discuss (with the entire group) the posting of other files *before* posting them. This helps us to keep redundant information from showing up everywhere and also allows us to constantly improve the format and structure of the documentation. We talk about the HAWK-800 quite a bit but we also discuss and help owners of the original Poly-800 models. So don't be shy if you haven't got the HAWK-800.Yahoo! Groups Links
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > The information contained in this e-mail message is privileged and
                            > confidential and is for the exclusive use of the addressee. The person
                            > who receives this message and who is not the addressee, one of his
                            > employees or an agent entitled to hand it over to the addressee, is
                            > informed that he may not use, disclose or reproduce the contents
                            > thereof, and is kindly asked to notify the sender and delete the e-mail
                            > immediately.
                            >
                          • Ullrich Peter
                            Hi Blaine! If you are in the situation that you can change the source code then you have more features of course. I bet that it would be possible to add some
                            Message 13 of 21 , Apr 14, 2012
                              Hi Blaine!

                              If you are in the situation that you can change the source code then you have more features of course.
                              I bet that it would be possible to add some encoders for interesting parameters if there is enough space in the eprom.
                              In this case you can maybe complete bypass the keyboard matrix and could add maybe an 8 bit port for 4
                              encoders on a free I/O address and the software does the encoding and parameter changes.

                              In theory it would be possible but its work that has to be done, and of course some tesing.

                              Ciao
                              Peter

                              ________________________________________
                              Von: korgpolyex@yahoogroups.com [korgpolyex@yahoogroups.com] im Auftrag von bimmerfan222 [bperkins211@...]
                              Gesendet: Samstag, 14. April 2012 17:26
                              An: korgpolyex@yahoogroups.com
                              Betreff: [korgpolyex] @ Ulrich--Re: rotary data dial +/-

                              Hmmm...

                              I'm thinking maybe Mike might be able to do a little bit of code magic to make the CPU scan for activity from rotary encoders/decoders and direct their signals to the appropriate parameters.

                              Wouldnt it be possible to add another demultiplexer in the Korg.. pardon my ignorance if I get the language incorrect.. but aren't the original push buttons on the 800's in a "matrix"... so that a demultiplexer reads the matrix and converts it into a data stream for the CPU to read?

                              I'm just thinking that instead of trying to build a mechanical latching system (to emu the real push button switches), use direct pulse signals from several encoders/decoders that would send just signals out direct. Bypassing the switches all together.

                              -Blaine



                              --- In korgpolyex@yahoogroups.com, Ullrich Peter <peter.ullrich@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Hi Blaine!
                              >
                              > You are welcome!
                              >
                              > Regarding the ELM402: As it is intended for CMOS this would not disturb as the chip alone is not enough.
                              > You would add CMOS analog switches anyway if you want the addon installed in parallel with the
                              > Synths plus/minus buttons. And even if the other parts are NMOS you will get no problems as long as the
                              > Voltage range is maximum 5V. And the advantage is that you can use it in wide voltage range from 2 to 5V!
                              >
                              > Remark: My datadial works in the range from 3.3 to 5V (as I programmed the brownout detector to get a well
                              > working reset of the microcontroller).
                              >
                              > Ciao
                              > Peter
                              >
                              > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
                              > Von: korgpolyex@yahoogroups.com [mailto:korgpolyex@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von bimmerfan222
                              > Gesendet: Mittwoch, 11. April 2012 05:35
                              > An: korgpolyex@yahoogroups.com
                              > Betreff: [korgpolyex] @ Ulrich--Re: rotary data dial +/-
                              >
                              > Hi Peter-
                              >
                              > Thanks for taking time to explain your datadial.
                              >
                              > I now see why your board and design costs more.. it's that ability to set the pulse width/time.. very clever indeed.
                              > And I think we all know that having custom cast circuit boards do not come cheap! That alone is probably half the cost when it comes to low quantities.
                              >
                              > Very nice contribution to the synth modder hobbiest community.
                              >
                              > Regarding the ELM402, I agree that the 2ms PW would be the better one to use on a slightly slow 8502 MP. The datasheet said it is built in mind for CMOS applications.. but actually testing it on the synth would be the only real way to find out.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > -Blaine
                              >
                              >
                              > --- In korgpolyex@yahoogroups.com, Ullrich Peter <peter.ullrich@> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > Hi!
                              > >
                              > > Regarding my email from yesterday. I didn’t have a look at the
                              > > datasheet of the ELM402. I thought that it is the datasheet of the encoder itself and not a converter chip.
                              > >
                              > > The chip is nice (quite similar to my solution) but the output pulse
                              > > width can only be selected between
                              > > 0.2 or 2ms.
                              > > I would say that 2ms will be the better value for synths as the scan rate is normally in the range of 100 to 2000Hz.
                              > > So I think it might fit for 80% of the synths. You could get problems
                              > > if the scan rate is slow because the short pulses could be missed.
                              > > Some older synth scan quite slow…
                              > >
                              > > If you only want the chips then I could offer you my chips as well.
                              > > Prices would be the same as the
                              > > EML402 (8.50$ DIL / 10$ SMD) but compare to these chips you can adjust
                              > > the pulse/pause time via the encoder â€" more flexibility that should match for every synth.
                              > > So it is cheaper than the complete datadial module but then you have
                              > > to integrate the chip on a PCB…
                              > >
                              > > For the SMD sockets I would need a lead time as I would have to buy a
                              > > SMD test socket for chip programming and would have to build a programming adapter.
                              > >
                              > > Ciao
                              > > Peter
                              > >
                              > > http://www.ullrich.at.tt
                              > > http://go.to/datadial (synth addon)
                              > >
                              > > ________________________________
                              > > From: bimmerfan222 <bperkins211@<mailto:bperkins211@>>
                              > > To: korgpolyex@yahoogroups.com<mailto:korgpolyex@yahoogroups.com>
                              > > Sent: Monday, April 9, 2012 10:26 PM
                              > > Subject: [korgpolyex] Re: rotary data dial +/-
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Hi Gordon, thanks for the reply.
                              > >
                              > > Surely there is a way to slip in a rotary encoder to mimic a up\down value keys..
                              > >
                              > > I was thinking of using this decoder by
                              > > elmelectronics.com<http://elmelectronics.com>
                              > >
                              > > http://elmelectronics.com/DSheets/ELM402DS.pdf
                              > >
                              > > couldnt the outputs be placed in parallel with the value switches?
                              > >
                              > > It can be set to generate 2.0msec pulses on two channels
                              > >
                              > > --- In korgpolyex@yahoogroups.com<mailto:korgpolyex%40yahoogroups.com>, Gordon JC Pearc e <gordon@<mailto:gordon@>> wrote:
                              > > >
                              > > > On 08/04/12 16:09, bimmerfan222 wrote:
                              > > >
                              > > > > I've yet to see an 800 with this simple, yet very helpful mod and am a little dumbfounded that it has not yet been done.
                              > > > > Debouncing is key to getting a smooth signal out to the triggers, otherwise you'd end up getting wild jumps in up/down values when moving the knob slow or fast.
                              > > >
                              > > > No, you won't.
                              > > >
                              > > > You'll get a rotary encoder that has to be turned painfully slowly
                              > > > to avoid it missing steps. The buttons are already debounced, and
                              > > > have quite a long debounce time.
                              > > >
                              > > > --
                              > > > Gordonjcp MM0YEQ
                              > > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > The information contained in this e-mail message is privileged and
                              > > confidential and is for the exclusive use of the addressee. The person
                              > > who receives this message and who is not the addressee, one of his
                              > > employees or an agent entitled to hand it over to the addressee, is
                              > > informed that he may not use, disclose or reproduce the contents
                              > > thereof, and is kindly asked to notify the sender and delete the
                              > > e-mail immediately.
                              > >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > ------------------------------------
                              >
                              > Feel free to upload into the files section any sysex dumps and tape dumps of patches that you may have but please discuss (with the entire group) the posting of other files *before* posting them. This helps us to keep redundant information from showing up everywhere and also allows us to constantly improve the format and structure of the documentation. We talk about the HAWK-800 quite a bit but we also discuss and help owners of the original Poly-800 models. So don't be shy if you haven't got the HAWK-800.Yahoo! Groups Links
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > The information contained in this e-mail message is privileged and
                              > confidential and is for the exclusive use of the addressee. The person
                              > who receives this message and who is not the addressee, one of his
                              > employees or an agent entitled to hand it over to the addressee, is
                              > informed that he may not use, disclose or reproduce the contents
                              > thereof, and is kindly asked to notify the sender and delete the e-mail
                              > immediately.
                              >




                              ------------------------------------

                              Feel free to upload into the files section any sysex dumps and tape dumps of patches that you may have but please discuss (with the entire group) the posting of other files *before* posting them. This helps us to keep redundant information from showing up everywhere and also allows us to constantly improve the format and structure of the documentation. We talk about the HAWK-800 quite a bit but we also discuss and help owners of the original Poly-800 models. So don't be shy if you haven't got the HAWK-800.Yahoo! Groups Links



                              confidential and is for the exclusive use of the addressee. The person
                              who receives this message and who is not the addressee, one of his
                              employees or an agent entitled to hand it over to the addressee, is
                              informed that he may not use, disclose or reproduce the contents
                              thereof, and is kindly asked to notify the sender and delete the e-mail
                              immediately.
                            • bimmerfan222
                              Hey Peter, I think this is what Mike (the creator of the Hawk800) was intending to do with the idea of adding some encoder dials to the Poly800. Couldnt there
                              Message 14 of 21 , Apr 14, 2012
                                Hey Peter,

                                I think this is what Mike (the creator of the Hawk800) was intending to do with the idea of adding some encoder dials to the Poly800.

                                Couldnt there be a way to use a multiplexer/de-multiplexer to allow more than 4 knobs?
                                Isnt that what Korg did to cram an entire set of playing keys(switches) on the keyboard AND all the panel switches to be scanned by the 8 pins on the 80C85A CPU?
                                Refer to section 21 in the P800 schematics.. I think there you will find that both the keyboard and the panel switches all merge into a demultiplexer.. then are converted to a bit code that is dumped onto the bus... AD0-AD7 (pins 12-19 on the CPU).

                                I read that there is a 3-to-8 demultiplexer on board (TC-40H138).. doesnt that mean three 8bit streams are from mostly the keyboard and the panel switch matrix's and used to share the CPU's data bus?
                                Couldnt the circuit be modded to integrate more 8bit streams?
                                I could be wrong.. lol. I understand very little about digital electronics, obviously.


                                Another idea I had was to somehow have 4-6 knobs and with a momentary switch of sorts, make the knobs change from one series of controllers to another.
                                Say in one scene, the dials will control VCF parameters, then punch a button and the dials turn into Envelope Generator dials (preferably six for the "break point" and "slope" parameters of the EG). Punch it again and it becomes Depth control of each of the four LFO's... not necessarily in that order, but you get the idea.

                                Keep in mind that the encoders can have a momentary switch on each of them.. push the knob/dial down and it activates a change..
                                There could be a simple series of LED's nearby to indicate what "scene" the knobs are in.. or use the encoders with LED's built into the encoder.. so when you switch scenes, the color of the knob changes! :)
                                You could even make the LED knobs be steady on, blink slowly, blink quickly.. and of course change colors.. heck, lets make them blink red, green, red, green... lol.

                                I wish I could offer more assistance in this mod, but I admit I know little to none of digital circuits and assy. code. That's where Mike would come in with all his custom code already in place.
                                Chances are that many of the subroutines that these new dials would need may already be there in use by the extra MIDI access coding he's done.. he'd simply just need to point to those subroutines already in ROM.

                                I really dont have any idea how much memory Mike has left to add in more features. I would think that 64K wouldnt all have been used up yet. Back in 1983, that was ALOT of memory for a home PC. I thought it was amazing when the Commodore 64 came out with it's 64K and all the fun things it did back then.

                                Cheers
                                -Blaine



                                --- In korgpolyex@yahoogroups.com, Ullrich Peter <peter.ullrich@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Hi Blaine!
                                >
                                > If you are in the situation that you can change the source code then you have more features of course.
                                > I bet that it would be possible to add some encoders for interesting parameters if there is enough space in the eprom.
                                > In this case you can maybe complete bypass the keyboard matrix and could add maybe an 8 bit port for 4
                                > encoders on a free I/O address and the software does the encoding and parameter changes.
                                >
                                > In theory it would be possible but its work that has to be done, and of course some tesing.
                                >
                                > Ciao
                                > Peter
                                >
                              • Ullrich Peter
                                Hi Blaine! Of course it would be possible to add some more encoders, but you have to take care of them in the software. The more you need to scan or poll the
                                Message 15 of 21 , Apr 15, 2012
                                  Hi Blaine!

                                  Of course it would be possible to add some more encoders, but you have to take care of them in the software.
                                  The more you need to scan or poll the long it takes. What you really have to avoid is that teh scanning rate gets too low
                                  so that there are remarkable delays in the musical keyboard section!

                                  I don't know if the editing buttons are in the same scanning thN the musical keyboard, maybe the scan rate for the buttons is lower and also the encoders could be scanned a little bit lower as they don't have to many pulses per revolution.

                                  For myself the effort in adding too many encoder for e Poly800 would be too much, for this this synthesizer is too poor in its features and sound possibilities - having said this I must add that I don't have the Hawk mod - maybe this mod offers some features that could lead to a better sound.
                                  But for me that one for all VCF part is too limiting.

                                  Ciao
                                  Peter
                                  ________________________________________
                                  Von: korgpolyex@yahoogroups.com [korgpolyex@yahoogroups.com] im Auftrag von bimmerfan222 [bperkins211@...]
                                  Gesendet: Sonntag, 15. April 2012 04:22
                                  An: korgpolyex@yahoogroups.com
                                  Betreff: [korgpolyex] @ Ulrich--Re: rotary data dial +/-

                                  Hey Peter,

                                  I think this is what Mike (the creator of the Hawk800) was intending to do with the idea of adding some encoder dials to the Poly800.

                                  Couldnt there be a way to use a multiplexer/de-multiplexer to allow more than 4 knobs?
                                  Isnt that what Korg did to cram an entire set of playing keys(switches) on the keyboard AND all the panel switches to be scanned by the 8 pins on the 80C85A CPU?
                                  Refer to section 21 in the P800 schematics.. I think there you will find that both the keyboard and the panel switches all merge into a demultiplexer.. then are converted to a bit code that is dumped onto the bus... AD0-AD7 (pins 12-19 on the CPU).

                                  I read that there is a 3-to-8 demultiplexer on board (TC-40H138).. doesnt that mean three 8bit streams are from mostly the keyboard and the panel switch matrix's and used to share the CPU's data bus?
                                  Couldnt the circuit be modded to integrate more 8bit streams?
                                  I could be wrong.. lol. I understand very little about digital electronics, obviously.


                                  Another idea I had was to somehow have 4-6 knobs and with a momentary switch of sorts, make the knobs change from one series of controllers to another.
                                  Say in one scene, the dials will control VCF parameters, then punch a button and the dials turn into Envelope Generator dials (preferably six for the "break point" and "slope" parameters of the EG). Punch it again and it becomes Depth control of each of the four LFO's... not necessarily in that order, but you get the idea.

                                  Keep in mind that the encoders can have a momentary switch on each of them.. push the knob/dial down and it activates a change..
                                  There could be a simple series of LED's nearby to indicate what "scene" the knobs are in.. or use the encoders with LED's built into the encoder.. so when you switch scenes, the color of the knob changes! :)
                                  You could even make the LED knobs be steady on, blink slowly, blink quickly.. and of course change colors.. heck, lets make them blink red, green, red, green... lol.

                                  I wish I could offer more assistance in this mod, but I admit I know little to none of digital circuits and assy. code. That's where Mike would come in with all his custom code already in place.
                                  Chances are that many of the subroutines that these new dials would need may already be there in use by the extra MIDI access coding he's done.. he'd simply just need to point to those subroutines already in ROM.

                                  I really dont have any idea how much memory Mike has left to add in more features. I would think that 64K wouldnt all have been used up yet. Back in 1983, that was ALOT of memory for a home PC. I thought it was amazing when the Commodore 64 came out with it's 64K and all the fun things it did back then.

                                  Cheers
                                  -Blaine



                                  --- In korgpolyex@yahoogroups.com, Ullrich Peter <peter.ullrich@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Hi Blaine!
                                  >
                                  > If you are in the situation that you can change the source code then you have more features of course.
                                  > I bet that it would be possible to add some encoders for interesting parameters if there is enough space in the eprom.
                                  > In this case you can maybe complete bypass the keyboard matrix and could add maybe an 8 bit port for 4
                                  > encoders on a free I/O address and the software does the encoding and parameter changes.
                                  >
                                  > In theory it would be possible but its work that has to be done, and of course some tesing.
                                  >
                                  > Ciao
                                  > Peter
                                  >



                                  ------------------------------------

                                  Feel free to upload into the files section any sysex dumps and tape dumps of patches that you may have but please discuss (with the entire group) the posting of other files *before* posting them. This helps us to keep redundant information from showing up everywhere and also allows us to constantly improve the format and structure of the documentation. We talk about the HAWK-800 quite a bit but we also discuss and help owners of the original Poly-800 models. So don't be shy if you haven't got the HAWK-800.Yahoo! Groups Links




                                  The information contained in this e-mail message is privileged and
                                  confidential and is for the exclusive use of the addressee. The person
                                  who receives this message and who is not the addressee, one of his
                                  employees or an agent entitled to hand it over to the addressee, is
                                  informed that he may not use, disclose or reproduce the contents
                                  thereof, and is kindly asked to notify the sender and delete the e-mail
                                  immediately.
                                • Michael Hawkins
                                  Hi all, There are several unused IO ports available on the HAWK board and it would be possible to create a new board that exploited those available IO ports.
                                  Message 16 of 21 , Apr 15, 2012
                                    Hi all,

                                    There are several unused IO ports available on the HAWK board and it would be possible to create a new board that exploited those available IO ports. There is also plenty of space available in the flash ROM for adding new software features.

                                    I don't know what the scan rate is for the multiplexed keyboard but I would imagine that there is enough CPU available to handle inputs of some kind coming from encoders. However, the number of encoders that could be supported might be restricted to the hardware design along with the available CPU. And it is also important to consider that the scan rate is variable because the HAWK software has a simple "threading" scheme in place that gives priority to handling note on events when they occur. This reduces the Poly-800 note onset delay but does mean that keyboard, joystick and other "stuff" is scanned at a different and slower rate when note on events happen.

                                    I am hoping to post all of the assembly code on the sourceforge HAWK800 project site this year. Then anyone that wants to add new mod's can also modify the code too.

                                    From my perspective though, I use the "old" Novation Remote SL25 Midi controller which works well for me. If you read the HAWK MIDI implementation chart, and the HAWK owners manual, you will see that I set up a couple of different ways to modify HAWK parameters using MIDI control messages. This gives the HAWK quite a bit of flexibility so that it can work with all sorts of different types of controllers. And, adding additional MIDI controllers is always possible if and when someone comes up with a new, unique or better way of doing it.

                                    And since the cost of hardware MIDI controllers is so low, I don't really see the point in trying to put encoders into the HAWK itself. But if enough HAWK owners show interest, I could be convinced to look into it further. Or, if others do some/most of the heavy lifting, then I will be on hand to provide assistance and write code for an encoder mod too.

                                    For now though, I have several HAWK customers that are hanging out for the 1RU rack kit and a host of others who are hanging out for an arpeggiator. So those two projects stay firmly in the priority queue for now. And, as I am sure many of you have noticed by now, I am somewhat overwhelmed by many other projects at this time, so my work on the HAWK has slowed to a crawl.

                                    But, don't let me stop or discourage any of you from continuing the idea because I am hoping that by posting the assembly code and all of my documentation on the sourceforge site, then Poly-800 fans will continue the tradition on. The music industry has generally spurned the Poly-800 but it has a fan base with a passion that I share.

                                    Mike


                                    From: Ullrich Peter <peter.ullrich@...>
                                    To: "korgpolyex@yahoogroups.com" <korgpolyex@yahoogroups.com>
                                    Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2012 5:38 AM
                                    Subject: Re: [korgpolyex] @ Ulrich--Re: rotary data dial +/-

                                     

                                    Hi Blaine!

                                    Of course it would be possible to add some more encoders, but you have to take care of them in the software.
                                    The more you need to scan or poll the long it takes. What you really have to avoid is that teh scanning rate gets too low
                                    so that there are remarkable delays in the musical keyboard section!

                                    I don't know if the editing buttons are in the same scanning thN the musical keyboard, maybe the scan rate for the buttons is lower and also the encoders could be scanned a little bit lower as they don't have to many pulses per revolution.

                                    For myself the effort in adding too many encoder for e Poly800 would be too much, for this this synthesizer is too poor in its features and sound possibilities - having said this I must add that I don't have the Hawk mod - maybe this mod offers some features that could lead to a better sound.
                                    But for me that one for all VCF part is too limiting.

                                    Ciao
                                    Peter
                                    ________________________________________
                                    Von: korgpolyex@yahoogroups.com [korgpolyex@yahoogroups.com] im Auftrag von bimmerfan222 [bperkins211@...]
                                    Gesendet: Sonntag, 15. April 2012 04:22
                                    An: korgpolyex@yahoogroups.com
                                    Betreff: [korgpolyex] @ Ulrich--Re: rotary data dial +/-

                                    Hey Peter,

                                    I think this is what Mike (the creator of the Hawk800) was intending to do with the idea of adding some encoder dials to the Poly800.

                                    Couldnt there be a way to use a multiplexer/de-multiplexer to allow more than 4 knobs?
                                    Isnt that what Korg did to cram an entire set of playing keys(switches) on the keyboard AND all the panel switches to be scanned by the 8 pins on the 80C85A CPU?
                                    Refer to section 21 in the P800 schematics.. I think there you will find that both the keyboard and the panel switches all merge into a demultiplexer.. then are converted to a bit code that is dumped onto the bus... AD0-AD7 (pins 12-19 on the CPU).

                                    I read that there is a 3-to-8 demultiplexer on board (TC-40H138).. doesnt that mean three 8bit streams are from mostly the keyboard and the panel switch matrix's and used to share the CPU's data bus?
                                    Couldnt the circuit be modded to integrate more 8bit streams?
                                    I could be wrong.. lol. I understand very little about digital electronics, obviously.

                                    Another idea I had was to somehow have 4-6 knobs and with a momentary switch of sorts, make the knobs change from one series of controllers to another.
                                    Say in one scene, the dials will control VCF parameters, then punch a button and the dials turn into Envelope Generator dials (preferably six for the "break point" and "slope" parameters of the EG). Punch it again and it becomes Depth control of each of the four LFO's... not necessarily in that order, but you get the idea.

                                    Keep in mind that the encoders can have a momentary switch on each of them.. push the knob/dial down and it activates a change..
                                    There could be a simple series of LED's nearby to indicate what "scene" the knobs are in.. or use the encoders with LED's built into the encoder.. so when you switch scenes, the color of the knob changes! :)
                                    You could even make the LED knobs be steady on, blink slowly, blink quickly.. and of course change colors.. heck, lets make them blink red, green, red, green... lol.

                                    I wish I could offer more assistance in this mod, but I admit I know little to none of digital circuits and assy. code. That's where Mike would come in with all his custom code already in place.
                                    Chances are that many of the subroutines that these new dials would need may already be there in use by the extra MIDI access coding he's done.. he'd simply just need to point to those subroutines already in ROM.

                                    I really dont have any idea how much memory Mike has left to add in more features. I would think that 64K wouldnt all have been used up yet. Back in 1983, that was ALOT of memory for a home PC. I thought it was amazing when the Commodore 64 came out with it's 64K and all the fun things it did back then.

                                    Cheers
                                    -Blaine

                                    --- In korgpolyex@yahoogroups.com, Ullrich Peter <peter.ullrich@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Hi Blaine!
                                    >
                                    > If you are in the situation that you can change the source code then you have more features of course.
                                    > I bet that it would be possible to add some encoders for interesting parameters if there is enough space in the eprom.
                                    > In this case you can maybe complete bypass the keyboard matrix and could add maybe an 8 bit port for 4
                                    > encoders on a free I/O address and the software does the encoding and parameter changes.
                                    >
                                    > In theory it would be possible but its work that has to be done, and of course some tesing.
                                    >
                                    > Ciao
                                    > Peter
                                    >

                                    ------------------------------------

                                    Feel free to upload into the files section any sysex dumps and tape dumps of patches that you may have but please discuss (with the entire group) the posting of other files *before* posting them. This helps us to keep redundant information from showing up everywhere and also allows us to constantly improve the format and structure of the documentation. We talk about the HAWK-800 quite a bit but we also discuss and help owners of the original Poly-800 models. So don't be shy if you haven't got the HAWK-800.Yahoo! Groups Links

                                    The information contained in this e-mail message is privileged and
                                    confidential and is for the exclusive use of the addressee. The person
                                    who receives this message and who is not the addressee, one of his
                                    employees or an agent entitled to hand it over to the addressee, is
                                    informed that he may not use, disclose or reproduce the contents
                                    thereof, and is kindly asked to notify the sender and delete the e-mail
                                    immediately.



                                  • bimmerfan222
                                    Thank you Peter and Mike for the feedback of my inquiries to mod encoders onto a P800. I suppose I m driven to do the mod because I just simply like the idea
                                    Message 17 of 21 , Apr 15, 2012
                                      Thank you Peter and Mike for the feedback of my inquiries to mod encoders onto a P800.

                                      I suppose I'm driven to do the mod because I just simply like the idea that my keyboard would have them on board and would not require the use of outside peripherals/MIDI to do on the fly changes/expressions..
                                      Another part is I just simply like the challenge and I have been learning quite a bit about how digital/computer circuits work in the process.

                                      I'm very eager to get a Hawk mod in the near future to tweak the P800 to places it's never gone before.. all the new features sound very exciting (pun purely by accident). First I have to fix the joystick on my recently acquired P800 (it wont modulate DCO/VCF correctly), purchase a MIDI controller, then get the Hawk800..
                                      The most exciting features I read about are the new waveforms, ability to invert the WF's, 3 additional LFOs, ability to assign the LFO's to any DCO or the VCF. There are many more, but those in themselves will make some very new and interesting patches I'm sure.


                                      I did have an idea on perhaps building an extra board that would use 8259-Programmable Interrupt Controllers to branch out the limited CPU IRQ lines.. I've read they can be cascaded up to 64 chips for a total 512 interrupt input request lines. Of course a handful of encoders may only require 3 of these chips at most.

                                      If I understand it correctly, this board could be hooked up to the encoders on the IRQ lines, then it would need the chips to all share paths on the data IO bus.. that bus would have to be merged in with the one inside the P800.. this is something I feel I could build/design, but tweaking the assy. code is where I fall into very dark areas of knowledge (but I'm eager to learn).
                                      I can see issues where one of the IRQ lines on board the P800 might have to be severed and relocated to the 8259's physically.. but then of course the code would have to be rewritten so the CPU will know where to look for that IRQ line.

                                      I could be wrong, but it seems that implementing the use of the 8259 chips would be a way to decrease the scanning requirements of the CPU. It's just all the rewriten code to support the changes in the IRQ lines that may be troublesome.


                                      Any input/opinions on my concepts will be greatly appreciated. And please have patience with my limited understanding of digital electronics/software.. I try to research and learn as much as possible before posting. I am going to make mistakes in terminology and application many times over, Im sure.

                                      And thank you Mike for breathing new life into an old favorite synth of mine.. this is the second time I've owned a P800.

                                      -Blaine





                                      --- In korgpolyex@yahoogroups.com, Michael Hawkins <korgpolyex800@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Hi all,
                                      >
                                      > There are several unused IO ports available on the HAWK board and it would be possible to create a new board that exploited those available IO ports. There is also plenty of space available in the flash ROM for adding new software features.
                                      >
                                      > I don't know what the scan rate is for the multiplexed keyboard but I would imagine that there is enough CPU available to handle inputs of some kind coming from encoders. However, the number of encoders that could be supported might be restricted to the hardware design along with the available CPU. And it is also important to consider that the scan rate is variable because the HAWK software has a simple "threading" scheme in place that gives priority to handling note on events when they occur. This reduces the Poly-800 note onset delay but does mean that keyboard, joystick and other "stuff" is scanned at a different and slower rate when note on events happen.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > I am hoping to post all of the assembly code on the sourceforge HAWK800 project site this year. Then anyone that wants to add new mod's can also modify the code too.
                                      >
                                      > From my perspective though, I use the "old" Novation Remote SL25 Midi controller which works well for me. If you read the HAWK MIDI implementation chart, and the HAWK owners manual, you will see that I set up a couple of different ways to modify HAWK parameters using MIDI control messages. This gives the HAWK quite a bit of flexibility so that it can work with all sorts of different types of controllers. And, adding additional MIDI controllers is always possible if and when someone comes up with a new, unique or better way of doing it.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > And since the cost of hardware MIDI controllers is so low, I don't really see the point in trying to put encoders into the HAWK itself. But if enough HAWK owners show interest, I could be convinced to look into it further. Or, if others do some/most of the heavy lifting, then I will be on hand to provide assistance and write code for an encoder mod too.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > For now though, I have several HAWK customers that are hanging out for the 1RU rack kit and a host of others who are hanging out for an arpeggiator. So those two projects stay firmly in the priority queue for now. And, as I am sure many of you have noticed by now, I am somewhat overwhelmed by many other projects at this time, so my work on the HAWK has slowed to a crawl.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > But, don't let me stop or discourage any of you from continuing the idea because I am hoping that by posting the assembly code and all of my documentation on the sourceforge site, then Poly-800 fans will continue the tradition on. The music industry has generally spurned the Poly-800 but it has a fan base with a passion that I share.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Mike
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > ________________________________
                                      > From: Ullrich Peter <peter.ullrich@...>
                                      > To: "korgpolyex@yahoogroups.com" <korgpolyex@yahoogroups.com>
                                      > Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2012 5:38 AM
                                      > Subject: Re: [korgpolyex] @ Ulrich--Re: rotary data dial +/-
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >  
                                      >
                                      > Hi Blaine!
                                      >
                                      > Of course it would be possible to add some more encoders, but you have to take care of them in the software.
                                      > The more you need to scan or poll the long it takes. What you really have to avoid is that teh scanning rate gets too low
                                      > so that there are remarkable delays in the musical keyboard section!
                                      >
                                      > I don't know if the editing buttons are in the same scanning thN the musical keyboard, maybe the scan rate for the buttons is lower and also the encoders could be scanned a little bit lower as they don't have to many pulses per revolution.
                                      >
                                      > For myself the effort in adding too many encoder for e Poly800 would be too much, for this this synthesizer is too poor in its features and sound possibilities - having said this I must add that I don't have the Hawk mod - maybe this mod offers some features that could lead to a better sound.
                                      > But for me that one for all VCF part is too limiting.
                                      >
                                      > Ciao
                                      > Peter
                                      > ________________________________________
                                      > Von: korgpolyex@yahoogroups.com [korgpolyex@yahoogroups.com] im Auftrag von bimmerfan222 [bperkins211@...]
                                      > Gesendet: Sonntag, 15. April 2012 04:22
                                      > An: korgpolyex@yahoogroups.com
                                      > Betreff: [korgpolyex] @ Ulrich--Re: rotary data dial +/-
                                      >
                                      > Hey Peter,
                                      >
                                      > I think this is what Mike (the creator of the Hawk800) was intending to do with the idea of adding some encoder dials to the Poly800.
                                      >
                                      > Couldnt there be a way to use a multiplexer/de-multiplexer to allow more than 4 knobs?
                                      > Isnt that what Korg did to cram an entire set of playing keys(switches) on the keyboard AND all the panel switches to be scanned by the 8 pins on the 80C85A CPU?
                                      > Refer to section 21 in the P800 schematics.. I think there you will find that both the keyboard and the panel switches all merge into a demultiplexer.. then are converted to a bit code that is dumped onto the bus... AD0-AD7 (pins 12-19 on the CPU).
                                      >
                                      > I read that there is a 3-to-8 demultiplexer on board (TC-40H138).. doesnt that mean three 8bit streams are from mostly the keyboard and the panel switch matrix's and used to share the CPU's data bus?
                                      > Couldnt the circuit be modded to integrate more 8bit streams?
                                      > I could be wrong.. lol. I understand very little about digital electronics, obviously.
                                      >
                                      > Another idea I had was to somehow have 4-6 knobs and with a momentary switch of sorts, make the knobs change from one series of controllers to another.
                                      > Say in one scene, the dials will control VCF parameters, then punch a button and the dials turn into Envelope Generator dials (preferably six for the "break point" and "slope" parameters of the EG). Punch it again and it becomes Depth control of each of the four LFO's... not necessarily in that order, but you get the idea.
                                      >
                                      > Keep in mind that the encoders can have a momentary switch on each of them.. push the knob/dial down and it activates a change..
                                      > There could be a simple series of LED's nearby to indicate what "scene" the knobs are in.. or use the encoders with LED's built into the encoder.. so when you switch scenes, the color of the knob changes! :)
                                      > You could even make the LED knobs be steady on, blink slowly, blink quickly.. and of course change colors.. heck, lets make them blink red, green, red, green... lol.
                                      >
                                      > I wish I could offer more assistance in this mod, but I admit I know little to none of digital circuits and assy. code. That's where Mike would come in with all his custom code already in place.
                                      > Chances are that many of the subroutines that these new dials would need may already be there in use by the extra MIDI access coding he's done.. he'd simply just need to point to those subroutines already in ROM.
                                      >
                                      > I really dont have any idea how much memory Mike has left to add in more features. I would think that 64K wouldnt all have been used up yet. Back in 1983, that was ALOT of memory for a home PC. I thought it was amazing when the Commodore 64 came out with it's 64K and all the fun things it did back then.
                                      >
                                      > Cheers
                                      > -Blaine
                                      >
                                      > --- In korgpolyex@yahoogroups.com, Ullrich Peter <peter.ullrich@> wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > Hi Blaine!
                                      > >
                                      > > If you are in the situation that you can change the source code then you have more features of course.
                                      > > I bet that it would be possible to add some encoders for interesting parameters if there is enough space in the eprom.
                                      > > In this case you can maybe complete bypass the keyboard matrix and could add maybe an 8 bit port for 4
                                      > > encoders on a free I/O address and the software does the encoding and parameter changes.
                                      > >
                                      > > In theory it would be possible but its work that has to be done, and of course some tesing.
                                      > >
                                      > > Ciao
                                      > > Peter
                                      > >
                                      >
                                      > ------------------------------------
                                      >
                                      > Feel free to upload into the files section any sysex dumps and tape dumps of patches that you may have but please discuss (with the entire group) the posting of other files *before* posting them. This helps us to keep redundant information from showing up everywhere and also allows us to constantly improve the format and structure of the documentation. We talk about the HAWK-800 quite a bit but we also discuss and help owners of the original Poly-800 models. So don't be shy if you haven't got the HAWK-800.Yahoo! Groups Links
                                      >
                                      > The information contained in this e-mail message is privileged and
                                      > confidential and is for the exclusive use of the addressee. The person
                                      > who receives this message and who is not the addressee, one of his
                                      > employees or an agent entitled to hand it over to the addressee, is
                                      > informed that he may not use, disclose or reproduce the contents
                                      > thereof, and is kindly asked to notify the sender and delete the e-mail
                                      > immediately.
                                      >
                                    • Michael Hawkins
                                      I could be wrong, but it seems that implementing the use of the 8259 chips would be a way to decrease the scanning requirements of the CPU. It s just all the
                                      Message 18 of 21 , Apr 15, 2012
                                        "I could be wrong, but it seems that implementing the use of the 8259 chips would be a way to decrease the scanning requirements of the CPU. It's just all the rewriten code to support the changes in the IRQ lines that may be troublesome."

                                        This is a nice idea but is much, much harder than you might think due to the way the Poly was designed. All three interrupts are already used. And although I think you could possibly intercept the IRQ used for MIDI in, I would recommend designing the encoder hardware so that it could just be polled. My suggestion would be to use two seven bit  binary counters (CMOS 4024 chips) and feed the "up" and "down" encoder output signals to those two counters. Then the CPU would read the counter chips each time it looped through the main line program. The counts would be held in memory and each time the CPU would read the counters it would compare last count to the current count of the 4024's. And would increment or decrement x y z parameters according to how much the count had changed.

                                        There are 6 IO select lines available on the HAWK board. So, three encoders could be supported. And, the eighth bit could be used for push buttons too. Supporting up to 6 news switches.

                                        Mike





                                        From: bimmerfan222 <bperkins211@...>
                                        To: korgpolyex@yahoogroups.com
                                        Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2012 12:44 PM
                                        Subject: [korgpolyex] @ Ulrich--Re: rotary data dial +/-

                                         


                                        Thank you Peter and Mike for the feedback of my inquiries to mod encoders onto a P800.

                                        I suppose I'm driven to do the mod because I just simply like the idea that my keyboard would have them on board and would not require the use of outside peripherals/MIDI to do on the fly changes/expressions..
                                        Another part is I just simply like the challenge and I have been learning quite a bit about how digital/computer circuits work in the process.

                                        I'm very eager to get a Hawk mod in the near future to tweak the P800 to places it's never gone before.. all the new features sound very exciting (pun purely by accident). First I have to fix the joystick on my recently acquired P800 (it wont modulate DCO/VCF correctly), purchase a MIDI controller, then get the Hawk800..
                                        The most exciting features I read about are the new waveforms, ability to invert the WF's, 3 additional LFOs, ability to assign the LFO's to any DCO or the VCF. There are many more, but those in themselves will make some very new and interesting patches I'm sure.

                                        I did have an idea on perhaps building an extra board that would use 8259-Programmable Interrupt Controllers to branch out the limited CPU IRQ lines.. I've read they can be cascaded up to 64 chips for a total 512 interrupt input request lines. Of course a handful of encoders may only require 3 of these chips at most.

                                        If I understand it correctly, this board could be hooked up to the encoders on the IRQ lines, then it would need the chips to all share paths on the data IO bus.. that bus would have to be merged in with the one inside the P800.. this is something I feel I could build/design, but tweaking the assy. code is where I fall into very dark areas of knowledge (but I'm eager to learn).
                                        I can see issues where one of the IRQ lines on board the P800 might have to be severed and relocated to the 8259's physically.. but then of course the code would have to be rewritten so the CPU will know where to look for that IRQ line.

                                        I could be wrong, but it seems that implementing the use of the 8259 chips would be a way to decrease the scanning requirements of the CPU. It's just all the rewriten code to support the changes in the IRQ lines that may be troublesome.

                                        Any input/opinions on my concepts will be greatly appreciated. And please have patience with my limited understanding of digital electronics/software.. I try to research and learn as much as possible before posting. I am going to make mistakes in terminology and application many times over, Im sure.

                                        And thank you Mike for breathing new life into an old favorite synth of mine.. this is the second time I've owned a P800.

                                        -Blaine

                                        --- In korgpolyex@yahoogroups.com, Michael Hawkins <korgpolyex800@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Hi all,
                                        >
                                        > There are several unused IO ports available on the HAWK board and it would be possible to create a new board that exploited those available IO ports. There is also plenty of space available in the flash ROM for adding new software features.
                                        >
                                        > I don't know what the scan rate is for the multiplexed keyboard but I would imagine that there is enough CPU available to handle inputs of some kind coming from encoders. However, the number of encoders that could be supported might be restricted to the hardware design along with the available CPU. And it is also important to consider that the scan rate is variable because the HAWK software has a simple "threading" scheme in place that gives priority to handling note on events when they occur. This reduces the Poly-800 note onset delay but does mean that keyboard, joystick and other "stuff" is scanned at a different and slower rate when note on events happen.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > I am hoping to post all of the assembly code on the sourceforge HAWK800 project site this year. Then anyone that wants to add new mod's can also modify the code too.
                                        >
                                        > From my perspective though, I use the "old" Novation Remote SL25 Midi controller which works well for me. If you read the HAWK MIDI implementation chart, and the HAWK owners manual, you will see that I set up a couple of different ways to modify HAWK parameters using MIDI control messages. This gives the HAWK quite a bit of flexibility so that it can work with all sorts of different types of controllers. And, adding additional MIDI controllers is always possible if and when someone comes up with a new, unique or better way of doing it.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > And since the cost of hardware MIDI controllers is so low, I don't really see the point in trying to put encoders into the HAWK itself. But if enough HAWK owners show interest, I could be convinced to look into it further. Or, if others do some/most of the heavy lifting, then I will be on hand to provide assistance and write code for an encoder mod too.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > For now though, I have several HAWK customers that are hanging out for the 1RU rack kit and a host of others who are hanging out for an arpeggiator. So those two projects stay firmly in the priority queue for now. And, as I am sure many of you have noticed by now, I am somewhat overwhelmed by many other projects at this time, so my work on the HAWK has slowed to a crawl.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > But, don't let me stop or discourage any of you from continuing the idea because I am hoping that by posting the assembly code and all of my documentation on the sourceforge site, then Poly-800 fans will continue the tradition on. The music industry has generally spurned the Poly-800 but it has a fan base with a passion that I share.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Mike
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > ________________________________
                                        > From: Ullrich Peter <peter.ullrich@...>
                                        > To: "korgpolyex@yahoogroups.com" <korgpolyex@yahoogroups.com>
                                        > Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2012 5:38 AM
                                        > Subject: Re: [korgpolyex] @ Ulrich--Re: rotary data dial +/-
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >  
                                        >
                                        > Hi Blaine!
                                        >
                                        > Of course it would be possible to add some more encoders, but you have to take care of them in the software.
                                        > The more you need to scan or poll the long it takes. What you really have to avoid is that teh scanning rate gets too low
                                        > so that there are remarkable delays in the musical keyboard section!
                                        >
                                        > I don't know if the editing buttons are in the same scanning thN the musical keyboard, maybe the scan rate for the buttons is lower and also the encoders could be scanned a little bit lower as they don't have to many pulses per revolution.
                                        >
                                        > For myself the effort in adding too many encoder for e Poly800 would be too much, for this this synthesizer is too poor in its features and sound possibilities - having said this I must add that I don't have the Hawk mod - maybe this mod offers some features that could lead to a better sound.
                                        > But for me that one for all VCF part is too limiting.
                                        >
                                        > Ciao
                                        > Peter
                                        > ________________________________________
                                        > Von: korgpolyex@yahoogroups.com [korgpolyex@yahoogroups.com] im Auftrag von bimmerfan222 [bperkins211@...]
                                        > Gesendet: Sonntag, 15. April 2012 04:22
                                        > An: korgpolyex@yahoogroups.com
                                        > Betreff: [korgpolyex] @ Ulrich--Re: rotary data dial +/-
                                        >
                                        > Hey Peter,
                                        >
                                        > I think this is what Mike (the creator of the Hawk800) was intending to do with the idea of adding some encoder dials to the Poly800.
                                        >
                                        > Couldnt there be a way to use a multiplexer/de-multiplexer to allow more than 4 knobs?
                                        > Isnt that what Korg did to cram an entire set of playing keys(switches) on the keyboard AND all the panel switches to be scanned by the 8 pins on the 80C85A CPU?
                                        > Refer to section 21 in the P800 schematics.. I think there you will find that both the keyboard and the panel switches all merge into a demultiplexer.. then are converted to a bit code that is dumped onto the bus... AD0-AD7 (pins 12-19 on the CPU).
                                        >
                                        > I read that there is a 3-to-8 demultiplexer on board (TC-40H138).. doesnt that mean three 8bit streams are from mostly the keyboard and the panel switch matrix's and used to share the CPU's data bus?
                                        > Couldnt the circuit be modded to integrate more 8bit streams?
                                        > I could be wrong.. lol. I understand very little about digital electronics, obviously.
                                        >
                                        > Another idea I had was to somehow have 4-6 knobs and with a momentary switch of sorts, make the knobs change from one series of controllers to another.
                                        > Say in one scene, the dials will control VCF parameters, then punch a button and the dials turn into Envelope Generator dials (preferably six for the "break point" and "slope" parameters of the EG). Punch it again and it becomes Depth control of each of the four LFO's... not necessarily in that order, but you get the idea.
                                        >
                                        > Keep in mind that the encoders can have a momentary switch on each of them.. push the knob/dial down and it activates a change..
                                        > There could be a simple series of LED's nearby to indicate what "scene" the knobs are in.. or use the encoders with LED's built into the encoder.. so when you switch scenes, the color of the knob changes! :)
                                        > You could even make the LED knobs be steady on, blink slowly, blink quickly.. and of course change colors.. heck, lets make them blink red, green, red, green... lol.
                                        >
                                        > I wish I could offer more assistance in this mod, but I admit I know little to none of digital circuits and assy. code. That's where Mike would come in with all his custom code already in place.
                                        > Chances are that many of the subroutines that these new dials would need may already be there in use by the extra MIDI access coding he's done.. he'd simply just need to point to those subroutines already in ROM.
                                        >
                                        > I really dont have any idea how much memory Mike has left to add in more features. I would think that 64K wouldnt all have been used up yet. Back in 1983, that was ALOT of memory for a home PC. I thought it was amazing when the Commodore 64 came out with it's 64K and all the fun things it did back then.
                                        >
                                        > Cheers
                                        > -Blaine
                                        >
                                        > --- In korgpolyex@yahoogroups.com, Ullrich Peter <peter.ullrich@> wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > Hi Blaine!
                                        > >
                                        > > If you are in the situation that you can change the source code then you have more features of course.
                                        > > I bet that it would be possible to add some encoders for interesting parameters if there is enough space in the eprom.
                                        > > In this case you can maybe complete bypass the keyboard matrix and could add maybe an 8 bit port for 4
                                        > > encoders on a free I/O address and the software does the encoding and parameter changes.
                                        > >
                                        > > In theory it would be possible but its work that has to be done, and of course some tesing.
                                        > >
                                        > > Ciao
                                        > > Peter
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        > ------------------------------------
                                        >
                                        > Feel free to upload into the files section any sysex dumps and tape dumps of patches that you may have but please discuss (with the entire group) the posting of other files *before* posting them. This helps us to keep redundant information from showing up everywhere and also allows us to constantly improve the format and structure of the documentation. We talk about the HAWK-800 quite a bit but we also discuss and help owners of the original Poly-800 models. So don't be shy if you haven't got the HAWK-800.Yahoo! Groups Links
                                        >
                                        > The information contained in this e-mail message is privileged and
                                        > confidential and is for the exclusive use of the addressee. The person
                                        > who receives this message and who is not the addressee, one of his
                                        > employees or an agent entitled to hand it over to the addressee, is
                                        > informed that he may not use, disclose or reproduce the contents
                                        > thereof, and is kindly asked to notify the sender and delete the e-mail
                                        > immediately.
                                        >



                                      • Michael Hawkins
                                        and I could add that the counters would be read by the CPU through a 74HC244. One for each. So the parts list so far is the encoder itself, two 74HC244 s and
                                        Message 19 of 21 , Apr 15, 2012
                                          and I could add that the counters would be read by the CPU through a 74HC244. One for each.

                                          So the parts list so far is the encoder itself, two 74HC244's and two 40HC24 counters plus the circuit to convert the encoder to a clock up and clock down signal.

                                          I think we could design a board that supported three encoders for less than 10 bucks each.

                                          Mike


                                          From: Michael Hawkins <korgpolyex800@...>
                                          To: "korgpolyex@yahoogroups.com" <korgpolyex@yahoogroups.com>
                                          Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2012 2:41 PM
                                          Subject: [korgpolyex] using interrupts instead of polling...

                                           
                                          "I could be wrong, but it seems that implementing the use of the 8259 chips would be a way to decrease the scanning requirements of the CPU. It's just all the rewriten code to support the changes in the IRQ lines that may be troublesome."

                                          This is a nice idea but is much, much harder than you might think due to the way the Poly was designed. All three interrupts are already used. And although I think you could possibly intercept the IRQ used for MIDI in, I would recommend designing the encoder hardware so that it could just be polled. My suggestion would be to use two seven bit  binary counters (CMOS 4024 chips) and feed the "up" and "down" encoder output signals to those two counters. Then the CPU would read the counter chips each time it looped through the main line program. The counts would be held in memory and each time the CPU would read the counters it would compare last count to the current count of the 4024's. And would increment or decrement x y z parameters according to how much the count had changed.

                                          There are 6 IO select lines available on the HAWK board. So, three encoders could be supported. And, the eighth bit could be used for push buttons too. Supporting up to 6 news switches.

                                          Mike





                                          From: bimmerfan222 <bperkins211@...>
                                          To: korgpolyex@yahoogroups.com
                                          Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2012 12:44 PM
                                          Subject: [korgpolyex] @ Ulrich--Re: rotary data dial +/-

                                           


                                          Thank you Peter and Mike for the feedback of my inquiries to mod encoders onto a P800.

                                          I suppose I'm driven to do the mod because I just simply like the idea that my keyboard would have them on board and would not require the use of outside peripherals/MIDI to do on the fly changes/expressions..
                                          Another part is I just simply like the challenge and I have been learning quite a bit about how digital/computer circuits work in the process.

                                          I'm very eager to get a Hawk mod in the near future to tweak the P800 to places it's never gone before.. all the new features sound very exciting (pun purely by accident). First I have to fix the joystick on my recently acquired P800 (it wont modulate DCO/VCF correctly), purchase a MIDI controller, then get the Hawk800..
                                          The most exciting features I read about are the new waveforms, ability to invert the WF's, 3 additional LFOs, ability to assign the LFO's to any DCO or the VCF. There are many more, but those in themselves will make some very new and interesting patches I'm sure.

                                          I did have an idea on perhaps building an extra board that would use 8259-Programmable Interrupt Controllers to branch out the limited CPU IRQ lines.. I've read they can be cascaded up to 64 chips for a total 512 interrupt input request lines. Of course a handful of encoders may only require 3 of these chips at most.

                                          If I understand it correctly, this board could be hooked up to the encoders on the IRQ lines, then it would need the chips to all share paths on the data IO bus.. that bus would have to be merged in with the one inside the P800.. this is something I feel I could build/design, but tweaking the assy. code is where I fall into very dark areas of knowledge (but I'm eager to learn).
                                          I can see issues where one of the IRQ lines on board the P800 might have to be severed and relocated to the 8259's physically.. but then of course the code would have to be rewritten so the CPU will know where to look for that IRQ line.

                                          I could be wrong, but it seems that implementing the use of the 8259 chips would be a way to decrease the scanning requirements of the CPU. It's just all the rewriten code to support the changes in the IRQ lines that may be troublesome.

                                          Any input/opinions on my concepts will be greatly appreciated. And please have patience with my limited understanding of digital electronics/software.. I try to research and learn as much as possible before posting. I am going to make mistakes in terminology and application many times over, Im sure.

                                          And thank you Mike for breathing new life into an old favorite synth of mine.. this is the second time I've owned a P800.

                                          -Blaine

                                          --- In korgpolyex@yahoogroups.com, Michael Hawkins <korgpolyex800@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Hi all,
                                          >
                                          > There are several unused IO ports available on the HAWK board and it would be possible to create a new board that exploited those available IO ports. There is also plenty of space available in the flash ROM for adding new software features.
                                          >
                                          > I don't know what the scan rate is for the multiplexed keyboard but I would imagine that there is enough CPU available to handle inputs of some kind coming from encoders. However, the number of encoders that could be supported might be restricted to the hardware design along with the available CPU. And it is also important to consider that the scan rate is variable because the HAWK software has a simple "threading" scheme in place that gives priority to handling note on events when they occur. This reduces the Poly-800 note onset delay but does mean that keyboard, joystick and other "stuff" is scanned at a different and slower rate when note on events happen.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > I am hoping to post all of the assembly code on the sourceforge HAWK800 project site this year. Then anyone that wants to add new mod's can also modify the code too.
                                          >
                                          > From my perspective though, I use the "old" Novation Remote SL25 Midi controller which works well for me. If you read the HAWK MIDI implementation chart, and the HAWK owners manual, you will see that I set up a couple of different ways to modify HAWK parameters using MIDI control messages. This gives the HAWK quite a bit of flexibility so that it can work with all sorts of different types of controllers. And, adding additional MIDI controllers is always possible if and when someone comes up with a new, unique or better way of doing it.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > And since the cost of hardware MIDI controllers is so low, I don't really see the point in trying to put encoders into the HAWK itself. But if enough HAWK owners show interest, I could be convinced to look into it further. Or, if others do some/most of the heavy lifting, then I will be on hand to provide assistance and write code for an encoder mod too.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > For now though, I have several HAWK customers that are hanging out for the 1RU rack kit and a host of others who are hanging out for an arpeggiator. So those two projects stay firmly in the priority queue for now. And, as I am sure many of you have noticed by now, I am somewhat overwhelmed by many other projects at this time, so my work on the HAWK has slowed to a crawl.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > But, don't let me stop or discourage any of you from continuing the idea because I am hoping that by posting the assembly code and all of my documentation on the sourceforge site, then Poly-800 fans will continue the tradition on. The music industry has generally spurned the Poly-800 but it has a fan base with a passion that I share.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Mike
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > ________________________________
                                          > From: Ullrich Peter <peter.ullrich@...>
                                          > To: "korgpolyex@yahoogroups.com" <korgpolyex@yahoogroups.com>
                                          > Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2012 5:38 AM
                                          > Subject: Re: [korgpolyex] @ Ulrich--Re: rotary data dial +/-
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >  
                                          >
                                          > Hi Blaine!
                                          >
                                          > Of course it would be possible to add some more encoders, but you have to take care of them in the software.
                                          > The more you need to scan or poll the long it takes. What you really have to avoid is that teh scanning rate gets too low
                                          > so that there are remarkable delays in the musical keyboard section!
                                          >
                                          > I don't know if the editing buttons are in the same scanning thN the musical keyboard, maybe the scan rate for the buttons is lower and also the encoders could be scanned a little bit lower as they don't have to many pulses per revolution.
                                          >
                                          > For myself the effort in adding too many encoder for e Poly800 would be too much, for this this synthesizer is too poor in its features and sound possibilities - having said this I must add that I don't have the Hawk mod - maybe this mod offers some features that could lead to a better sound.
                                          > But for me that one for all VCF part is too limiting.
                                          >
                                          > Ciao
                                          > Peter
                                          > ________________________________________
                                          > Von: korgpolyex@yahoogroups.com [korgpolyex@yahoogroups.com] im Auftrag von bimmerfan222 [bperkins211@...]
                                          > Gesendet: Sonntag, 15. April 2012 04:22
                                          > An: korgpolyex@yahoogroups.com
                                          > Betreff: [korgpolyex] @ Ulrich--Re: rotary data dial +/-
                                          >
                                          > Hey Peter,
                                          >
                                          > I think this is what Mike (the creator of the Hawk800) was intending to do with the idea of adding some encoder dials to the Poly800.
                                          >
                                          > Couldnt there be a way to use a multiplexer/de-multiplexer to allow more than 4 knobs?
                                          > Isnt that what Korg did to cram an entire set of playing keys(switches) on the keyboard AND all the panel switches to be scanned by the 8 pins on the 80C85A CPU?
                                          > Refer to section 21 in the P800 schematics.. I think there you will find that both the keyboard and the panel switches all merge into a demultiplexer.. then are converted to a bit code that is dumped onto the bus... AD0-AD7 (pins 12-19 on the CPU).
                                          >
                                          > I read that there is a 3-to-8 demultiplexer on board (TC-40H138).. doesnt that mean three 8bit streams are from mostly the keyboard and the panel switch matrix's and used to share the CPU's data bus?
                                          > Couldnt the circuit be modded to integrate more 8bit streams?
                                          > I could be wrong.. lol. I understand very little about digital electronics, obviously.
                                          >
                                          > Another idea I had was to somehow have 4-6 knobs and with a momentary switch of sorts, make the knobs change from one series of controllers to another.
                                          > Say in one scene, the dials will control VCF parameters, then punch a button and the dials turn into Envelope Generator dials (preferably six for the "break point" and "slope" parameters of the EG). Punch it again and it becomes Depth control of each of the four LFO's... not necessarily in that order, but you get the idea.
                                          >
                                          > Keep in mind that the encoders can have a momentary switch on each of them.. push the knob/dial down and it activates a change..
                                          > There could be a simple series of LED's nearby to indicate what "scene" the knobs are in.. or use the encoders with LED's built into the encoder.. so when you switch scenes, the color of the knob changes! :)
                                          > You could even make the LED knobs be steady on, blink slowly, blink quickly.. and of course change colors.. heck, lets make them blink red, green, red, green... lol.
                                          >
                                          > I wish I could offer more assistance in this mod, but I admit I know little to none of digital circuits and assy. code. That's where Mike would come in with all his custom code already in place.
                                          > Chances are that many of the subroutines that these new dials would need may already be there in use by the extra MIDI access coding he's done.. he'd simply just need to point to those subroutines already in ROM.
                                          >
                                          > I really dont have any idea how much memory Mike has left to add in more features. I would think that 64K wouldnt all have been used up yet. Back in 1983, that was ALOT of memory for a home PC. I thought it was amazing when the Commodore 64 came out with it's 64K and all the fun things it did back then.
                                          >
                                          > Cheers
                                          > -Blaine
                                          >
                                          > --- In korgpolyex@yahoogroups.com, Ullrich Peter <peter.ullrich@> wrote:
                                          > >
                                          > > Hi Blaine!
                                          > >
                                          > > If you are in the situation that you can change the source code then you have more features of course.
                                          > > I bet that it would be possible to add some encoders for interesting parameters if there is enough space in the eprom.
                                          > > In this case you can maybe complete bypass the keyboard matrix and could add maybe an 8 bit port for 4
                                          > > encoders on a free I/O address and the software does the encoding and parameter changes.
                                          > >
                                          > > In theory it would be possible but its work that has to be done, and of course some tesing.
                                          > >
                                          > > Ciao
                                          > > Peter
                                          > >
                                          >
                                          > ------------------------------------
                                          >
                                          > Feel free to upload into the files section any sysex dumps and tape dumps of patches that you may have but please discuss (with the entire group) the posting of other files *before* posting them. This helps us to keep redundant information from showing up everywhere and also allows us to constantly improve the format and structure of the documentation. We talk about the HAWK-800 quite a bit but we also discuss and help owners of the original Poly-800 models. So don't be shy if you haven't got the HAWK-800.Yahoo! Groups Links
                                          >
                                          > The information contained in this e-mail message is privileged and
                                          > confidential and is for the exclusive use of the addressee. The person
                                          > who receives this message and who is not the addressee, one of his
                                          > employees or an agent entitled to hand it over to the addressee, is
                                          > informed that he may not use, disclose or reproduce the contents
                                          > thereof, and is kindly asked to notify the sender and delete the e-mail
                                          > immediately.
                                          >





                                        • bimmerfan222
                                          Thanks for the info and help Mike. You said: plus the circuit to convert the encoder to a clock up and clock down signal. Do you mean a decoder circuit to
                                          Message 20 of 21 , Apr 16, 2012
                                            Thanks for the info and help Mike.


                                            You said:
                                            "plus the circuit to convert the encoder to a clock up and clock down signal."

                                            Do you mean a decoder circuit to create a clean pulse output? Say a .02 or 2ms pulse? Like a debouncer/decoder chip I posted about earlier?


                                            You also mentioned that there are 6 IO lines available on your H800 board. Are those lines readily available as predrilled holes in the board itself so a group of wires could be soldered in, or would there need to be some modifications done to the board?

                                            I also was curious if there was any room left to create a new group of LED drivers.. say to control 6-8 LED's.. I'm really liking the idea of encoders with LEDs in them that could change colors to indicate function.. I assume we could make the encoders change what they control.. say if one is red, it's controlling the VCF level, push the encoder down and it changes to green to indicate it now is controlling a LFO.

                                            I'm also curious if you have access to a circuit board manufacturer to create the new board relatively cheap.. I assume you do since you had the H800 board done relatively cheap and at low quantity.
                                            I've got a decent bread board to build a prototype, just would need help in getting an actual PC board made.

                                            I will research the devices you mentioned and see if I can start to come up with some designs.. it would be helpful if I could see the schematic for your board to physically note where the IO lines would be located at.

                                            Thanks again,

                                            -Blaine




                                            --- In korgpolyex@yahoogroups.com, Michael Hawkins <korgpolyex800@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > and I could add that the counters would be read by the CPU through a 74HC244. One for each.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > So the parts list so far is the encoder itself, two 74HC244's and two 40HC24 counters plus the circuit to convert the encoder to a clock up and clock down signal.
                                            >
                                            > I think we could design a board that supported three encoders for less than 10 bucks each.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Mike
                                            >
                                            >
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