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MIDI clock adders? (was: Re: OT: Akai arpeggiator

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  • zoinky420
    hmm I have several mergers but never thought of using them that way. Theoretically it should work but I ve never seen it mentioned in any manuals as an
    Message 1 of 26 , Jan 2, 2011
      hmm I have several mergers but never thought of using them that way. Theoretically it should work but I've never seen it mentioned in any manuals as an option. I've got a three-processor merger with midi filtering, so I could conceivably merge two different sequences at any tempo to one MIDI out, and control the tempo to both of them by merging a third channel of nothing but clock data?

      --- In korgpolyex@yahoogroups.com, Atom Smasher <atom@...> wrote:
      >
      > On Fri, 31 Dec 2010, zoinky420 wrote:
      >
      > > BTW, does anyone know if any device that will take a sequence fed into
      > > its MIDI-In, and spit it back out its MIDI-Out with a MIDI clock signal
      > > added to it? If such a device exists I'd like to get one, and if not
      > > I'd encourage someone to design one, as it would be more flexible than
      > > adding clock circuits to hardware that don't output clock signals. I
      > > don't know anything about the technical challenges, but maybe it would
      > > be easiest if the device had you dial in the tempo and time signature of
      > > the sequence you're feeding it?
      > ================
      >
      > i think you're describing a MIDI-merger... two (or more) inputs merged
      > into one output. just make sure one of the inputs is a clock.
      >
      > some sequencers merge a MIDI input with internal clock.
      >
      >
      > --
      > ...atom
      >
      > ________________________
      > http://atom.smasher.org/
      > 762A 3B98 A3C3 96C9 C6B7 582A B88D 52E4 D9F5 7808
      > -------------------------------------------------
      >
      > "I made a pilgrimage to save this human race
      > Never comprehending the race that's long gone by"
      > -- Modern English
      >
    • Atom Smasher
      ... =============== let us know how it works. just make sure that one input has a clock that s not filtered, and that clock is filtered on any other input(s)
      Message 2 of 26 , Jan 2, 2011
        On Sun, 2 Jan 2011, zoinky420 wrote:

        > hmm I have several mergers but never thought of using them that way.
        > Theoretically it should work but I've never seen it mentioned in any
        > manuals as an option. I've got a three-processor merger with midi
        > filtering, so I could conceivably merge two different sequences at any
        > tempo to one MIDI out, and control the tempo to both of them by merging
        > a third channel of nothing but clock data?
        ===============

        let us know how it works.

        just make sure that one input has a clock that's not filtered, and that
        clock is filtered on any other input(s) that may have clock.


        --
        ...atom

        ________________________
        http://atom.smasher.org/
        762A 3B98 A3C3 96C9 C6B7 582A B88D 52E4 D9F5 7808
        -------------------------------------------------

        "They have computers, and they may have
        other weapons of mass destruction."
        -- Janet Reno, US Attorney General,
        27 Feb 1998
      • ASSI
        ... Most mergers don t handle real-time data well. Some do a reasonably good job, but you may have to use a designated input (often port 1) for the clock
        Message 3 of 26 , Jan 3, 2011
          On Sunday 02 January 2011, zoinky420 wrote:
          > hmm I have several mergers but never thought of using them that way.

          Most mergers don't handle real-time data well. Some do a reasonably good
          job, but you may have to use a designated input (often port 1) for the clock
          source to get a stable timing.

          > Theoretically it should work but I've never seen it mentioned in any
          > manuals as an option. I've got a three-processor merger with midi
          > filtering, so I could conceivably merge two different sequences at any
          > tempo to one MIDI out, and control the tempo to both of them by merging
          > a third channel of nothing but clock data?

          No, that's not how MIDI clock works. You'd get the two sequences at their
          original tempo plus an unrelated MIDI clock that is only seen downstream of
          the merger.


          Achim.
          --
          +<[Q+ Matrix-12 WAVE#46+305 Neuron microQkb Andromeda XTk Blofeld]>+

          Factory and User Sound Singles for Waldorf rackAttack:
          http://Synth.Stromeko.net/Downloads.html#WaldorfSounds
        • zoinky420
          ... The manual doesn t say anything about having to use a specific input for clock sources, but it does say that if you go overboard with midi data you can get
          Message 4 of 26 , Jan 3, 2011
            --- In korgpolyex@yahoogroups.com, ASSI <Stromeko@...> wrote:
            >
            > On Sunday 02 January 2011, zoinky420 wrote:
            > > hmm I have several mergers but never thought of using them that way.
            >
            > Most mergers don't handle real-time data well. Some do a reasonably good
            > job, but you may have to use a designated input (often port 1) for the clock
            > source to get a stable timing.

            The manual doesn't say anything about having to use a specific input for clock sources, but it does say that if you go overboard with midi data you can get buffer underruns.

            >
            > > Theoretically it should work but I've never seen it mentioned in any
            > > manuals as an option. I've got a three-processor merger with midi
            > > filtering, so I could conceivably merge two different sequences at any
            > > tempo to one MIDI out, and control the tempo to both of them by merging
            > > a third channel of nothing but clock data?
            >
            > No, that's not how MIDI clock works. You'd get the two sequences at their
            > original tempo plus an unrelated MIDI clock that is only seen downstream of
            > the merger.
            >
            >

            MIDI clock does control tempo, so I'm not sure what you're getting at.
          • Daniel Forró
            There can be only one MIDI clock stream on one MIDI circuit, it s not possible to mix two. Of course it s possible to mix outputs of musical (e.g. channel)
            Message 5 of 26 , Jan 3, 2011
              There can be only one MIDI clock stream on one MIDI circuit, it's not
              possible to mix two.

              Of course it's possible to mix outputs of musical (e.g. channel) data
              from two sequencers or MIDI players running at two different tempos.
              It has sense in the case when each sequence uses different MIDI
              channels as then there can't be any data confict (like Note On/Off,
              controllers, PB, AT and so). Rather experimental attitudes, those
              polytempi...

              I got the same result - polytempi - when I multiplied or divided
              position of notes by some constant different from 1 in old good
              Notator on Atari (= time compression or expansion with MIDI data).
              Then each track got different tempo despite the fact there only one
              clock with main tempo.

              Daniel Forro


              On 4 Jan 2011, at 3:23 AM, ASSI wrote:

              > On Sunday 02 January 2011, zoinky420 wrote:
              >> hmm I have several mergers but never thought of using them that way.
              >
              > Most mergers don't handle real-time data well. Some do a
              > reasonably good
              > job, but you may have to use a designated input (often port 1) for
              > the clock
              > source to get a stable timing.
              >
              >> Theoretically it should work but I've never seen it mentioned in any
              >> manuals as an option. I've got a three-processor merger with midi
              >> filtering, so I could conceivably merge two different sequences at
              >> any
              >> tempo to one MIDI out, and control the tempo to both of them by
              >> merging
              >> a third channel of nothing but clock data?
              >
              > No, that's not how MIDI clock works. You'd get the two sequences
              > at their
              > original tempo plus an unrelated MIDI clock that is only seen
              > downstream of
              > the merger.
              >
              >
              > Achim.
            • zoinky420
              ... Of course, who said anything about mixing clocks? ... So you were not mixing clocks and it didn t work, and therefore Atom Smasher is wrong?
              Message 6 of 26 , Jan 4, 2011
                --- In korgpolyex@yahoogroups.com, Daniel Forró <dan.for@...> wrote:
                >
                > There can be only one MIDI clock stream on one MIDI circuit, it's not
                > possible to mix two.

                Of course, who said anything about mixing clocks?

                >
                > Of course it's possible to mix outputs of musical (e.g. channel) data
                > from two sequencers or MIDI players running at two different tempos.
                > It has sense in the case when each sequence uses different MIDI
                > channels as then there can't be any data confict (like Note On/Off,
                > controllers, PB, AT and so). Rather experimental attitudes, those
                > polytempi...
                >
                > I got the same result - polytempi - when I multiplied or divided
                > position of notes by some constant different from 1 in old good
                > Notator on Atari (= time compression or expansion with MIDI data).
                > Then each track got different tempo despite the fact there only one
                > clock with main tempo.
                >

                So you were not mixing clocks and it didn't work, and therefore Atom Smasher is wrong?
              • Daniel Forró
                ??? No idea what are you talking about. Looks like some problem in communication. Maybe my wrong non native English :-) Sorry to bother, next time I will keep
                Message 7 of 26 , Jan 4, 2011
                  ??? No idea what are you talking about.

                  Looks like some problem in communication. Maybe my wrong non native
                  English :-) Sorry to bother, next time I will keep silence.

                  Daniel Forro

                  On 4 Jan 2011, at 8:59 PM, zoinky420 wrote:

                  >
                  >
                  > --- In korgpolyex@yahoogroups.com, Daniel Forró <dan.for@...> wrote:
                  >>
                  >> There can be only one MIDI clock stream on one MIDI circuit, it's not
                  >> possible to mix two.
                  >
                  > Of course, who said anything about mixing clocks?
                  >
                  >>
                  >> Of course it's possible to mix outputs of musical (e.g. channel) data
                  >> from two sequencers or MIDI players running at two different tempos.
                  >> It has sense in the case when each sequence uses different MIDI
                  >> channels as then there can't be any data confict (like Note On/Off,
                  >> controllers, PB, AT and so). Rather experimental attitudes, those
                  >> polytempi...
                  >>
                  >> I got the same result - polytempi - when I multiplied or divided
                  >> position of notes by some constant different from 1 in old good
                  >> Notator on Atari (= time compression or expansion with MIDI data).
                  >> Then each track got different tempo despite the fact there only one
                  >> clock with main tempo.
                  >>
                  >
                  > So you were not mixing clocks and it didn't work, and therefore
                  > Atom Smasher is wrong?
                • zoinky420
                  ... Yeah I think somehow we got our wires crossed.. when they should have been merged. Or something. Anyway, I will try to simplify once just in case it
                  Message 8 of 26 , Jan 5, 2011
                    --- In korgpolyex@yahoogroups.com, Daniel Forró <dan.for@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > ??? No idea what are you talking about.
                    >
                    > Looks like some problem in communication. Maybe my wrong non native
                    > English :-) Sorry to bother, next time I will keep silence.
                    >

                    Yeah I think somehow we got our wires crossed.. when they should have been merged. Or something. Anyway, I will try to simplify once just in case it helps. I have a rackmount merger/patchbay that has three processors in it, therefore it can merge three inputs to one output, so what I'd like to do, would be for example to send a sequence on channel 5 to one input, and another sequence to channel 6 to another input, and neither of those sequences would contain a clock signal, so I want to send a third sequence WITH a clock signal to a third input, but on that input I filter out all but the MIDI clock signal, and I use the channel bump function to send the clock to both channels 5 and 6, and merge that input to the same output I'm merging the other two sequences on the other two inputs to. Then I send that output to a multi-timbral MIDI tone generator/synth to see what it all sounds like.

                    Again, I don't know if this would work but I don't see why not, and Atom Smasher seemed to think it should work. Unfortunately my patchbays aren't wired up right now otherwise I would find out if it works rather than just philosophizing about it here...
                  • Daniel Forró
                    No problem :-) But still I don t understand what you want to get. MIDI clock stream is just a part of complex MIDI data on MIDI output (containing System and
                    Message 9 of 26 , Jan 5, 2011
                      No problem :-) But still I don't understand what you want to get.

                      MIDI clock stream is just a part of complex MIDI data on MIDI output
                      (containing System and Channel data), and it has nothing to do with
                      channels - MIDI clock doesn't include any information about MIDI
                      channels. Of course you can mix those three signals as you plan, and
                      when both sequences will play from two different sequencers, they can
                      even have different tempos. That MIDI clock from the third input will
                      become part of mixed MIDI signal on output and can't have any
                      influence on channel data - they both will be controlled by their
                      respective tempo setting in their respective sequencers from which
                      they are transmitted.

                      So this new added MIDI clock will do nothing in receiving
                      multitimbral instrument, but when this instrument has internal
                      sequencer, and it will have loaded some music data, you can control
                      its tempo (and Start/Stop/Continue) when you set it for receiving
                      external MIDI clock. That's all.

                      At least how I understand it now after your second explanation.... My
                      answer is in full agreement with Achim, he wrote the same. You will
                      get two sequences in their own tempos, plus unrelated new MIDI clock
                      stream. What this MIDI clock stream will do, depends only on the MIDI
                      implementation and setting of the receiving unit.

                      Daniel Forro

                      On 6 Jan 2011, at 2:56 PM, zoinky420 wrote:

                      >
                      >
                      > --- In korgpolyex@yahoogroups.com, Daniel Forró <dan.for@...> wrote:
                      >>
                      >> ??? No idea what are you talking about.
                      >>
                      >> Looks like some problem in communication. Maybe my wrong non native
                      >> English :-) Sorry to bother, next time I will keep silence.
                      >>
                      >
                      > Yeah I think somehow we got our wires crossed.. when they should
                      > have been merged. Or something. Anyway, I will try to simplify
                      > once just in case it helps. I have a rackmount merger/patchbay
                      > that has three processors in it, therefore it can merge three
                      > inputs to one output, so what I'd like to do, would be for example
                      > to send a sequence on channel 5 to one input, and another sequence
                      > to channel 6 to another input, and neither of those sequences would
                      > contain a clock signal, so I want to send a third sequence WITH a
                      > clock signal to a third input, but on that input I filter out all
                      > but the MIDI clock signal, and I use the channel bump function to
                      > send the clock to both channels 5 and 6, and merge that input to
                      > the same output I'm merging the other two sequences on the other
                      > two inputs to. Then I send that output to a multi-timbral MIDI
                      > tone generator/synth to see what it all sounds like.
                      >
                      > Again, I don't know if this would work but I don't see why not, and
                      > Atom Smasher seemed to think it should work. Unfortunately my
                      > patchbays aren't wired up right now otherwise I would find out if
                      > it works rather than just philosophizing about it here...
                    • Gordon JC Pearce
                      ... Actually, one other thing it would do is control clock-synced LFOs according to the MIDI clock tempo. It won t pull the sequences into time with each
                      Message 10 of 26 , Jan 6, 2011
                        On Thu, 2011-01-06 at 15:49 +0900, Daniel Forró wrote:

                        >
                        > So this new added MIDI clock will do nothing in receiving
                        > multitimbral instrument, but when this instrument has internal
                        > sequencer, and it will have loaded some music data, you can control
                        > its tempo (and Start/Stop/Continue) when you set it for receiving
                        > external MIDI clock. That's all.

                        Actually, one other thing it would do is control clock-synced LFOs
                        according to the MIDI clock tempo.

                        It won't pull the sequences into time with each other, if that's what
                        the idea is.

                        Gordon MM0YEQ
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