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RE: [korgpolyex] Code update

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  • Jose Curvo
    Hi Mike, I m glad you took this route. Even loving my Poly800 as much as I do it was a bit unconfortable seeing someone who could actually understand what
    Message 1 of 8 , Dec 2, 2006
      Hi Mike,

      I'm glad you took this route. Even loving my Poly800 as much as I do it was
      a bit unconfortable seeing someone who could actually understand what makes
      the beast tick to settle for it's twenty years old technology. Many of it's
      features were compromises to keep prices down. No syx on the original Poly,
      no velocity, no calibration of the joystick (mine sends cc with low values
      all the time), only on or off for each waveform, only one filter...

      I choose one instead of a Synclavier, Fairlight or PPG, guess why? ;-)

      Twenty years after I think you can do it better than it ever was. I would
      love a ROM OS on a piggyback card with a socket for the old one and a soft
      switch that allowed me to choose wich to enable. So a could have the stock
      I'm used to and the small things I wish it to do, like syx.

      I'm a dumb when it comes to programming. But you are right on the spot when
      you feel free to create *from* what was a good thing. I don't know what can
      be done, midi delays? arppegiators? harmonizers? Most hardware itens weren't
      good sellers but what would they cost today?

      Just think of sockets. So we don't ruin our belove printed circuits trying
      the new season's OS. If it's simple to be done and cheap, maybe we all get
      as hooked as guitarrists are to pedals (just this last one). May be not. But
      easy and cheap are allways good selling points.

      Maybe in the near future you could even get rid of hardware limitations, I
      mean there must be chips that can make better DCOs than those on the Poly.
      Why not? They were chosen with both eyes on the bottom line. Time has
      changed and the makers of those days' best ones must be happy to sell a few
      more units before declaring them obsolete. Maybe a open plataform hardware -
      need more voices? add a card.

      I don't know what can be done. Or how much it would cost. Just wish it could
      be done.

      Just think that as much as we all loved the poly it doesn't need to be the
      stick any synthesizer should be measured with. It was just the best synth we
      could buy, and maybe that's what made them a great synth.

      You are doing great. There are at least 600 of us crossing our fingers and
      waiting for the 800III. Sometimes the only help we can give is spare you
      from long useless e-mails.

      Thank you,

      Jose Curvo


      >From: "korgpolyex800" <korgpolyex800@...>
      >Reply-To: korgpolyex@yahoogroups.com
      >To: korgpolyex@yahoogroups.com
      >Subject: [korgpolyex] Code update
      >Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 02:24:02 -0000
      >
      >A few weeks ago I decided to just rewrite the code from scratch. I
      >mean, there might be some Korg lurker on this list just waiting to
      >take a law suit out against me so I figured it better to just rewrite
      >the code.
      >
      >OK, at this point, I've got a ROM ready that allows me to send a SYSEX
      >to the EX800 that pokes a byte (or bytes) into any RAM location/s I
      >want to.
      >
      >Very nice!
      >
      >So far, I've identified several performance parameters that can be
      >adjusted through the sysex command that I've inserted into the code.
      >Only drawback is that you no longer have the tape functions.
      >
      >If anyone would be interested in using such a ROM in their EX800's,
      >just let me know. Depending on the response I will post my new ROM
      >onto ebay at a price around 20 bucks or so.
      >
      >This is just the beginning!
      >
      >Mike.
      >
      >PS: Excuse my previous rant, I was feeling a Clash of
      >Civilizsynthesizations!
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >

      _________________________________________________________________
      Descubra como mandar Torpedos SMS do seu Messenger para o celular dos seus
      amigos. http://mobile.msn.com/
    • Michael Hawkins
      Hi Jose and Poly fans, Well, let me just first say that I really, really appreciate these sorts of emails because this is really a project that is going to
      Message 2 of 8 , Dec 5, 2006
        Hi Jose and Poly fans,

        Well, let me just first say that I really, really appreciate these sorts of emails because this is really a project that is going to take a huge effort and has little chance of making a buck. So I need all the encouragement you can give me to keep this up. I don't really have much "free time" on my hands so I sneak time into this project only after having looked after everything else in my life and that is family, work etc.

        This is truly a labor of love for me. Looking at ebay we could all just go and buy a Korg DW-8000 or EX-8000 for maybe $300 or so bucks and we would have more functions than the Poly 800 ever will. In particular, you cannot beat the eight VCF's that are used in the 8000. I am hoping there will be a day in the future where we'll be able to replace the DCO's and the filter on the Poly entirely. If anyone has an 8000, I would like to know what processor is used in it. I find it difficult to believe that a 80C85 CPU could be in there but it would be really nice to know that it was using an 80C85.

        Anyway it really is a lot of fun to be poking right inside the guts of a keyboard like I am able to. The Poly design itself is very clever and Korg really squeezed a great deal out of a bunch of multiplexors, digitally controlled switches and a single Digital to Analog convertor.

        And now having spent some time working on rebuilding the entire keyboard functions myself, I have even more respect for the engineers who developed the software that fits into that little 8Kbps ROM.

        At this point in the project, I am still contemplating the situation where I have learned so much about the existing code that is in the keyboard, it seems a bit of a shame to have to rewrite so much of it. But the more time I spend learning how Korg wrote all of the functions, the more I think it could become completely impossible to patch new functions into the existing code.I already have a nice way to boot up the keyboard in two different modes. But using that method requires that I rewrite the entire code base from scratch and then add new functions into that base. At my rate of progress it could take a year or two just to do that alone. So I am thinking that the upgrade board will use EEPROM and we will provide a mechanism to upgrade the EEPROM with new firmware via SYSEX. Then, I could write some of the primitive functions and get us all up and running on them with the option to continue to upgrade the firmware when new functionality comes out of the works.

        So my focus right now is on writing my own SYSEX functions that will allow me to dump the code into the new EEPROM and RAM.

        Anyway, enough for now. I'll keep you all up to date as we progress.

        Mike H.



        Jose Curvo <homem_eletronico@...> wrote:
        Hi Mike,

        I'm glad you took this route. Even loving my Poly800 as much as I do it was
        a bit unconfortable seeing someone who could actually understand what makes
        the beast tick to settle for it's twenty years old technology. Many of it's
        features were compromises to keep prices down. No syx on the original Poly,
        no velocity, no calibration of the joystick (mine sends cc with low values
        all the time), only on or off for each waveform, only one filter...

        I choose one instead of a Synclavier, Fairlight or PPG, guess why? ;-)

        Twenty years after I think you can do it better than it ever was. I would
        love a ROM OS on a piggyback card with a socket for the old one and a soft
        switch that allowed me to choose wich to enable. So a could have the stock
        I'm used to and the small things I wish it to do, like syx.

        I'm a dumb when it comes to programming. But you are right on the spot when
        you feel free to create *from* what was a good thing. I don't know what can
        be done, midi delays? arppegiators? harmonizers? Most hardware itens weren't
        good sellers but what would they cost today?

        Just think of sockets. So we don't ruin our belove printed circuits trying
        the new season's OS. If it's simple to be done and cheap, maybe we all get
        as hooked as guitarrists are to pedals (just this last one). May be not. But
        easy and cheap are allways good selling points.

        Maybe in the near future you could even get rid of hardware limitations, I
        mean there must be chips that can make better DCOs than those on the Poly.
        Why not? They were chosen with both eyes on the bottom line. Time has
        changed and the makers of those days' best ones must be happy to sell a few
        more units before declaring them obsolete. Maybe a open plataform hardware -
        need more voices? add a card.

        I don't know what can be done. Or how much it would cost. Just wish it could
        be done.

        Just think that as much as we all loved the poly it doesn't need to be the
        stick any synthesizer should be measured with. It was just the best synth we
        could buy, and maybe that's what made them a great synth.

        You are doing great. There are at least 600 of us crossing our fingers and
        waiting for the 800III. Sometimes the only help we can give is spare you
        from long useless e-mails.

        Thank you,

        Jose Curvo

        >From: "korgpolyex800" <korgpolyex800@ yahoo.com>
        >Reply-To: korgpolyex@yahoogro ups.com
        >To: korgpolyex@yahoogro ups.com
        >Subject: [korgpolyex] Code update
        >Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 02:24:02 -0000
        >
        >A few weeks ago I decided to just rewrite the code from scratch. I
        >mean, there might be some Korg lurker on this list just waiting to
        >take a law suit out against me so I figured it better to just rewrite
        >the code.
        >
        >OK, at this point, I've got a ROM ready that allows me to send a SYSEX
        >to the EX800 that pokes a byte (or bytes) into any RAM location/s I
        >want to.
        >
        >Very nice!
        >
        >So far, I've identified several performance parameters that can be
        >adjusted through the sysex command that I've inserted into the code.
        >Only drawback is that you no longer have the tape functions.
        >
        >If anyone would be interested in using such a ROM in their EX800's,
        >just let me know. Depending on the response I will post my new ROM
        >onto ebay at a price around 20 bucks or so.
        >
        >This is just the beginning!
        >
        >Mike.
        >
        >PS: Excuse my previous rant, I was feeling a Clash of
        >Civilizsynthesizat ions!
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >

        ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
        Descubra como mandar Torpedos SMS do seu Messenger para o celular dos seus
        amigos. http://mobile. msn.com/



        Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.

      • Manu
        It s really fun to know about your progress :) Keep up the good work ;) Manu
        Message 3 of 8 , Dec 5, 2006
          It's really fun to know about your progress :) Keep up the good work ;)

          Manu
        • Michael Hawkins
          Thanks for that. Marcin Sztucki wrote: Hi Mike, It looks like Mr Bryan Ressler could be of some help on the type of the DW 8000’s CPU.
          Message 4 of 8 , Dec 6, 2006
            Thanks for that.

            Marcin Sztucki <sztucki@...> wrote:
            Hi Mike,
            It looks like Mr Bryan Ressler could be of some help on the type of the DW 8000’s CPU. Just check his site, and maybe try to e-mail him.
            I wish you good luck with your project.
             
            Marcin
             
             

            From: korgpolyex@yahoogro ups.com [mailto:korgpolyex@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Michael Hawkins
            Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2006 10:45 PM
            To: korgpolyex@yahoogro ups.com
            Subject: RE: [korgpolyex] Code update
             
            Hi Jose and Poly fans,

            Well, let me just first say that I really, really appreciate these sorts of emails because this is really a project that is going to take a huge effort and has little chance of making a buck. So I need all the encouragement you can give me to keep this up. I don't really have much "free time" on my hands so I sneak time into this project only after having looked after everything else in my life and that is family, work etc.

            This is truly a labor of love for me. Looking at ebay we could all just go and buy a Korg DW-8000 or EX-8000 for maybe $300 or so bucks and we would have more functions than the Poly 800 ever will. In particular, you cannot beat the eight VCF's that are used in the 8000. I am hoping there will be a day in the future where we'll be able to replace the DCO's and the filter on the Poly entirely. If anyone has an 8000, I would like to know what processor is used in it. I find it difficult to believe that a 80C85 CPU could be in there but it would be really nice to know that it was using an 80C85.

            Anyway it really is a lot of fun to be poking right inside the guts of a keyboard like I am able to. The Poly design itself is very clever and Korg really squeezed a great deal out of a bunch of multiplexors, digitally controlled switches and a single Digital to Analog convertor.

            And now having spent some time working on rebuilding the entire keyboard functions myself, I have even more respect for the engineers who developed the software that fits into that little 8Kbps ROM.

            At this point in the project, I am still contemplating the situation where I have learned so much about the existing code that is in the keyboard, it seems a bit of a shame to have to rewrite so much of it. But the more time I spend learning how Korg wrote all of the functions, the more I think it could become completely impossible to patch new functions into the existing code.I already have a nice way to boot up the keyboard in two different modes. But using that method requires that I rewrite the entire code base from scratch and then add new functions into that base. At my rate of progress it could take a year or two just to do that alone. So I am thinking that the upgrade board will use EEPROM and we will provide a mechanism to upgrade the EEPROM with new firmware via SYSEX. Then, I could write some of the primitive functions and get us all up and running on them with the option to continue to upgrade the firmware when new functionality comes out of the works.

            So my focus right now is on writing my own SYSEX functions that will allow me to dump the code into the new EEPROM and RAM.

            Anyway, enough for now. I'll keep you all up to date as we progress.

            Mike H.



            Jose Curvo <homem_eletronico@ hotmail.com> wrote:
            Hi Mike,

            I'm glad you took this route. Even loving my Poly800 as much as I do it was
            a bit unconfortable seeing someone who could actually understand what makes
            the beast tick to settle for it's twenty years old technology. Many of it's
            features were compromises to keep prices down. No syx on the original Poly,
            no velocity, no calibration of the joystick (mine sends cc with low values
            all the time), only on or off for each waveform, only one filter...

            I choose one instead of a Synclavier, Fairlight or PPG, guess why? ;-)

            Twenty years after I think you can do it better than it ever was. I would
            love a ROM OS on a piggyback card with a socket for the old one and a soft
            switch that allowed me to choose wich to enable. So a could have the stock
            I'm used to and the small things I wish it to do, like syx.

            I'm a dumb when it comes to programming. But you are right on the spot when
            you feel free to create *from* what was a good thing. I don't know what can
            be done, midi delays? arppegiators? harmonizers? Most hardware itens weren't
            good sellers but what would they cost today?

            Just think of sockets. So we don't ruin our belove printed circuits trying
            the new season's OS. If it's simple to be done and cheap, maybe we all get
            as hooked as guitarrists are to pedals (just this last one). May be not. But
            easy and cheap are allways good selling points.

            Maybe in the near future you could even get rid of hardware limitations, I
            mean there must be chips that can make better DCOs than those on the Poly.
            Why not? They were chosen with both eyes on the bottom line. Time has
            changed and the makers of those days' best ones must be happy to sell a few
            more units before declaring them obsolete. Maybe a open plataform hardware -
            need more voices? add a card.

            I don't know what can be done. Or how much it would cost. Just wish it could
            be done.

            Just think that as much as we all loved the poly it doesn't need to be the
            stick any synthesizer should be measured with. It was just the best synth we
            could buy, and maybe that's what made them a great synth.

            You are doing great. There are at least 600 of us crossing our fingers and
            waiting for the 800III. Sometimes the only help we can give is spare you
            from long useless e-mails.

            Thank you,

            Jose Curvo

            >From: "korgpolyex800" <korgpolyex800@ yahoo.com>
            >Reply-To: korgpolyex@yahoogro ups.com
            >To: korgpolyex@yahoogro ups.com
            >Subject: [korgpolyex] Code update
            >Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 02:24:02 -0000
            >
            >A few weeks ago I decided to just rewrite the code from scratch. I
            >mean, there might be some Korg lurker on this list just waiting to
            >take a law suit out against me so I figured it better to just rewrite
            >the code.
            >
            >OK, at this point, I've got a ROM ready that allows me to send a SYSEX
            >to the EX800 that pokes a byte (or bytes) into any RAM location/s I
            >want to.
            >
            >Very nice!
            >
            >So far, I've identified several performance parameters that can be
            >adjusted through the sysex command that I've inserted into the code.
            >Only drawback is that you no longer have the tape functions.
            >
            >If anyone would be interested in using such a ROM in their EX800's,
            >just let me know. Depending on the response I will post my new ROM
            >onto ebay at a price around 20 bucks or so.
            >
            >This is just the beginning!
            >
            >Mike.
            >
            >PS: Excuse my previous rant, I was feeling a Clash of
            >Civilizsynthesizat ions!
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >

            ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
            Descubra como mandar Torpedos SMS do seu Messenger para o celular dos seus
            amigos. http://mobile. msn.com/
             
             

            Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.


            Want to start your own business? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business.

          • russ
            I actually LIKE that it has only one vcf. It gets almost a monosynth sound that way ... Any questions? Get answers on any topic at Yahoo! Answers. Try it now.
            Message 5 of 8 , Dec 6, 2006
              I actually LIKE that it has only one vcf. It gets almost a monosynth sound that way


              Any questions? Get answers on any topic at Yahoo! Answers. Try it now.
            • Tim Bieniosek
              Or the way dance music producers run a filter over samples.
              Message 6 of 8 , Dec 6, 2006
                Or the way dance music producers run a filter over samples.


                On Wed, 6 Dec 2006, russ wrote:

                > I actually LIKE that it has only one vcf. It gets almost a monosynth sound that way
                >
                > ---------------------------------
                > Any questions? Get answers on any topic at Yahoo! Answers. Try it now.
              • gupidziadek
                Hi, the DW8000 I own has HD63B03XP of Hitachi. And altough the beast (8000) seems to be one of the firsts ever made - ROM version 850709 I do not think that
                Message 7 of 8 , Dec 19, 2006
                  Hi,
                  the DW8000 I own has HD63B03XP of Hitachi. And altough the beast
                  (8000) seems to be one of the firsts ever made - ROM version 850709
                  I do not think that those guys were using 80C8x ever. Anyway, I hope
                  the info is helpful to you.
                  Regarding the work you do, as far as I am concerned (not following
                  strictly the progress) I can imagine how huge work you are about to
                  do. I am thinking of doing a modification which came into my mind
                  right after I get my Poly into my hands for the first time - less
                  buttons (switches) and more knobs (POTs) and LEDs for more
                  comfortable programing and maybe for changing parameters in
                  realtime. I do not know if it's possible at all - in fact everything
                  is possible if you try hard enough. But is it worth the effort,
                  that's another question.
                  Anyway, I wish you good luck in your project. The most important is
                  there are people who care and waiting for the result.

                  All the best to you

                  gupidziadek


                  --- In korgpolyex@yahoogroups.com, Michael Hawkins
                  <korgpolyex800@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Hi Jose and Poly fans,
                  >
                  > Well, let me just first say that I really, really appreciate these
                  sorts of emails because this is really a project that is going to
                  take a huge effort and has little chance of making a buck. So I need
                  all the encouragement you can give me to keep this up. I don't
                  really have much "free time" on my hands so I sneak time into this
                  project only after having looked after everything else in my life
                  and that is family, work etc.
                  >
                  > This is truly a labor of love for me. Looking at ebay we could all
                  just go and buy a Korg DW-8000 or EX-8000 for maybe $300 or so bucks
                  and we would have more functions than the Poly 800 ever will. In
                  particular, you cannot beat the eight VCF's that are used in the
                  8000. I am hoping there will be a day in the future where we'll be
                  able to replace the DCO's and the filter on the Poly entirely. If
                  anyone has an 8000, I would like to know what processor is used in
                  it. I find it difficult to believe that a 80C85 CPU could be in
                  there but it would be really nice to know that it was using an 80C85.
                  >
                  > Anyway it really is a lot of fun to be poking right inside the
                  guts of a keyboard like I am able to. The Poly design itself is very
                  clever and Korg really squeezed a great deal out of a bunch of
                  multiplexors, digitally controlled switches and a single Digital to
                  Analog convertor.
                  >
                  > And now having spent some time working on rebuilding the entire
                  keyboard functions myself, I have even more respect for the
                  engineers who developed the software that fits into that little
                  8Kbps ROM.
                  >
                  > At this point in the project, I am still contemplating the
                  situation where I have learned so much about the existing code that
                  is in the keyboard, it seems a bit of a shame to have to rewrite so
                  much of it. But the more time I spend learning how Korg wrote all of
                  the functions, the more I think it could become completely
                  impossible to patch new functions into the existing code.I already
                  have a nice way to boot up the keyboard in two different modes. But
                  using that method requires that I rewrite the entire code base from
                  scratch and then add new functions into that base. At my rate of
                  progress it could take a year or two just to do that alone. So I am
                  thinking that the upgrade board will use EEPROM and we will provide
                  a mechanism to upgrade the EEPROM with new firmware via SYSEX. Then,
                  I could write some of the primitive functions and get us all up and
                  running on them with the option to continue to upgrade the firmware
                  when new functionality comes out of the works.
                  >
                  > So my focus right now is on writing my own SYSEX functions that
                  will allow me to dump the code into the new EEPROM and RAM.
                  >
                  > Anyway, enough for now. I'll keep you all up to date as we
                  progress.
                  >
                  > Mike H.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Jose Curvo <homem_eletronico@...>
                  wrote: Hi Mike,
                  >
                  > I'm glad you took this route. Even loving my Poly800 as much as I
                  do it was
                  > a bit unconfortable seeing someone who could actually understand
                  what makes
                  > the beast tick to settle for it's twenty years old technology.
                  Many of it's
                  > features were compromises to keep prices down. No syx on the
                  original Poly,
                  > no velocity, no calibration of the joystick (mine sends cc with
                  low values
                  > all the time), only on or off for each waveform, only one
                  filter...
                  >
                  > I choose one instead of a Synclavier, Fairlight or PPG, guess
                  why? ;-)
                  >
                  > Twenty years after I think you can do it better than it ever was.
                  I would
                  > love a ROM OS on a piggyback card with a socket for the old one
                  and a soft
                  > switch that allowed me to choose wich to enable. So a could have
                  the stock
                  > I'm used to and the small things I wish it to do, like syx.
                  >
                  > I'm a dumb when it comes to programming. But you are right on the
                  spot when
                  > you feel free to create *from* what was a good thing. I don't
                  know what can
                  > be done, midi delays? arppegiators? harmonizers? Most hardware
                  itens weren't
                  > good sellers but what would they cost today?
                  >
                  > Just think of sockets. So we don't ruin our belove printed
                  circuits trying
                  > the new season's OS. If it's simple to be done and cheap, maybe
                  we all get
                  > as hooked as guitarrists are to pedals (just this last one). May
                  be not. But
                  > easy and cheap are allways good selling points.
                  >
                  > Maybe in the near future you could even get rid of hardware
                  limitations, I
                  > mean there must be chips that can make better DCOs than those on
                  the Poly.
                  > Why not? They were chosen with both eyes on the bottom line. Time
                  has
                  > changed and the makers of those days' best ones must be happy to
                  sell a few
                  > more units before declaring them obsolete. Maybe a open plataform
                  hardware -
                  > need more voices? add a card.
                  >
                  > I don't know what can be done. Or how much it would cost. Just
                  wish it could
                  > be done.
                  >
                  > Just think that as much as we all loved the poly it doesn't need
                  to be the
                  > stick any synthesizer should be measured with. It was just the
                  best synth we
                  > could buy, and maybe that's what made them a great synth.
                  >
                  > You are doing great. There are at least 600 of us crossing our
                  fingers and
                  > waiting for the 800III. Sometimes the only help we can give is
                  spare you
                  > from long useless e-mails.
                  >
                  > Thank you,
                  >
                  > Jose Curvo
                  >
                  > >From: "korgpolyex800" <korgpolyex800@...>
                  > >Reply-To: korgpolyex@yahoogroups.com
                  > >To: korgpolyex@yahoogroups.com
                  > >Subject: [korgpolyex] Code update
                  > >Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 02:24:02 -0000
                  > >
                  > >A few weeks ago I decided to just rewrite the code from scratch.
                  I
                  > >mean, there might be some Korg lurker on this list just waiting
                  to
                  > >take a law suit out against me so I figured it better to just
                  rewrite
                  > >the code.
                  > >
                  > >OK, at this point, I've got a ROM ready that allows me to send a
                  SYSEX
                  > >to the EX800 that pokes a byte (or bytes) into any RAM
                  location/s I
                  > >want to.
                  > >
                  > >Very nice!
                  > >
                  > >So far, I've identified several performance parameters that can
                  be
                  > >adjusted through the sysex command that I've inserted into the
                  code.
                  > >Only drawback is that you no longer have the tape functions.
                  > >
                  > >If anyone would be interested in using such a ROM in their
                  EX800's,
                  > >just let me know. Depending on the response I will post my new
                  ROM
                  > >onto ebay at a price around 20 bucks or so.
                  > >
                  > >This is just the beginning!
                  > >
                  > >Mike.
                  > >
                  > >PS: Excuse my previous rant, I was feeling a Clash of
                  > >Civilizsynthesizations!
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >Yahoo! Groups Links
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  > __________________________________________________________
                  > Descubra como mandar Torpedos SMS do seu Messenger para o celular
                  dos seus
                  > amigos. http://mobile.msn.com/
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ---------------------------------
                  > Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.
                  >
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