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Re: The War On Terror

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  • iizthatiiz
    The U.S did nt blow up the U.N., nor did the French. The charter of the U.N. wasn t designed to deal with today s world. Global stateless terrorism didn t
    Message 1 of 24 , Apr 1, 2003
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      The U.S did'nt 'blow up' the U.N., nor did the French. The charter
      of the U.N. wasn't designed to deal with today's world. Global
      stateless terrorism didn't exist in the 1940's.(yes, I realize Iraq
      is a 'state', but I believe I've already iterated why, and how Iraq
      is a key part of the war against terror. The U.N. isn't dead, it
      just needs a little retooling. Our own U.S. constitution has 27
      amendments to it, and I've no doubt, the future will see more. I can
      think of many, many possible reasons why Germany and France broke
      away from the U.S and the U.K over Iraq, but I won't go into them
      here. I still consider both France, and Germany strong, and valuable
      allies. They both continue to provide heavy assistance in the war on
      terror in many ways. The Western world has its differences, but none
      of us want a world where 5 billion people are forced to bow towards
      Mecca.

      > What if a large percentage of a population wants "strict and narrow
      beliefs" <

      I don't think your seriously advocating the rights of majorities
      over minorities, are you? Your defending intolerance, and I don't
      believe thats you Jaap. We live in a world where every country hosts
      many different cultures. People have a right to live in dignity, no
      matter where they are born.

      Re: Algeria, your synopsis neatly sums up much of recent Algerian
      history. The Algerian military did indeed overturn the results of
      the 91 election. Whether it was a free a fair election is certainly
      open to debate. When Islamicists tell village elders that their
      village may be wiped out if the vote doesn't go their way, that may
      influence some voters. Islamicist violence in Algeria started long
      before 1991. Nor can anyone claim that Algerian Islamicists limit
      their terror to their home soil. Algerian terror groups have been
      involved in European terror for decades. It's guess-timated that at
      least 25% of Al Qaeda terror cells are Algerian. The terrorist
      caught carrying explosives over the U.S.-Canadian border on his way
      to take out Los Angeles International Airport was an Algerian. The
      recent Ricin terror cells found through Europe were Algerians. This
      is no domestic squabble on their part. Algerian Islamicists are up
      to their neck in global plots. There are some leaders in the Islamic
      world resisting against the spread of Islamicism. I'm glad the
      Algerian military is part of it.

      , "Jos" <kramer@d...> wrote:
      > YankeeDog... I have a few comments.
      >
      > Interesting. "To impose democracy, and give the U.S. a permanent
      > foothold in the Middle East." In that case, may I suggest Bush not
      to
      > abuse - and blow up - the UN (and blaming the French for it) and
      > pretend it's about illegal weapons of mass destruction?
      >
      > Another thing, "imposing democracy" can be quite hard. What if a
      > large percentage of a population wants "strict and narrow beliefs",
      > as you put it? You mentioned the GIA. Here's some background
      > information on the GIA:
      >
      > "The GIA was formed out of a bitter struggle for control of Algeria
      > between Islamists and the country's authoritarian leadership. After
      > winning independence from France in 1962, the country was governed
      by
      > a socialist party called the National Liberation Front (FLN).
      > Following a series of youth riots in the late 1980s, the FLN
      allowed
      > the country's first multiparty elections. When a party of moderate
      > and radical Islamists called the Islamic Salvation Front (FIS) won
      a
      > round of parliamentary elections in 1991, the FLN nullified the
      > victory and banned the FIS. The resultant public outcry turned
      > violent, and the paramilitary wing of the FIS began targeting
      > security forces. The GIA emerged as one of several radical FIS
      > splinter factions that have continued to fight against Algeria's
      FLN-
      > supported, military-dominated regimes, from the government that
      ruled
      > the country until 1999 to the current, more conciliatory
      leadership."
      >
      > You see, actually the FIS won the elections, but that result was
      not
      > desirable, so it was nullified. Is democracy only desirable when
      > moderate parties are victorious? Is that democracy? I think that's
      a
      > tough question.
    • yearight
      is it me...or does jos just not understand whats goin on iizthatiiz wrote:The U.S did nt blow up the U.N., nor did the French. The
      Message 2 of 24 , Apr 1, 2003
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        is it me...or does jos just not understand whats goin on

         iizthatiiz <iizthatiiz@...> wrote:

        The U.S did'nt 'blow up' the U.N., nor did the French.  The charter
        of the U.N. wasn't designed to deal with today's world.  Global
        stateless terrorism didn't exist in the 1940's.(yes, I realize Iraq
        is a 'state', but I believe I've already iterated why, and how Iraq
        is a key part of the war against terror.  The U.N. isn't dead, it
        just needs a little retooling.  Our own U.S. constitution has 27
        amendments to it, and I've no doubt, the future will see more.  I can
        think of many, many possible reasons why Germany and France broke
        away from the U.S and the U.K over Iraq, but I won't go into them
        here.  I still consider both France, and Germany strong, and valuable
        allies.  They both continue to provide heavy assistance in the war on
        terror in many ways.  The Western world has its differences, but none
        of us want a world where 5 billion people are forced to bow towards
        Mecca.

        > What if a large percentage of a population wants "strict and narrow
        beliefs" <

           I don't think your seriously advocating the rights of majorities
        over minorities, are you?  Your defending intolerance, and I don't
        believe thats you Jaap.  We live in a world where every country hosts
        many different cultures.  People have a right to live in dignity, no
        matter where they are born.

        Re: Algeria, your synopsis neatly sums up much of recent Algerian
        history.  The Algerian military did indeed overturn the results of
        the 91 election.  Whether it was a free a fair election is certainly
        open to debate.  When Islamicists tell village elders that their
        village may be wiped out if the vote doesn't go their way, that may
        influence some voters.  Islamicist violence in Algeria started long
        before 1991.  Nor can anyone claim that Algerian Islamicists limit
        their terror to their home soil.  Algerian terror groups have been
        involved in European terror for decades.  It's guess-timated that at
        least 25% of Al Qaeda terror cells are Algerian.  The terrorist
        caught carrying explosives over the U.S.-Canadian border on his way
        to take out Los Angeles International Airport was an Algerian.  The
        recent Ricin terror cells found through Europe were Algerians.  This
        is no domestic squabble on their part.  Algerian Islamicists are up
        to their neck in global plots.  There are some leaders in the Islamic
        world resisting against the spread of Islamicism.  I'm glad the
        Algerian military is part of it.

        , "Jos" <kramer@d...> wrote:
        > YankeeDog... I have a few comments.
        >
        > Interesting. "To impose democracy, and give the U.S. a permanent
        > foothold in the Middle East." In that case, may I suggest Bush not
        to
        > abuse - and blow up - the UN (and blaming the French for it) and
        > pretend it's about illegal weapons of mass destruction?
        >
        > Another thing, "imposing democracy" can be quite hard. What if a
        > large percentage of a population wants "strict and narrow beliefs",
        > as you put it? You mentioned the GIA. Here's some background
        > information on the GIA:
        >
        > "The GIA was formed out of a bitter struggle for control of Algeria
        > between Islamists and the country's authoritarian leadership. After
        > winning independence from France in 1962, the country was governed
        by
        > a socialist party called the National Liberation Front (FLN).
        > Following a series of youth riots in the late 1980s, the FLN
        allowed
        > the country's first multiparty elections. When a party of moderate
        > and radical Islamists called the Islamic Salvation Front (FIS) won
        a
        > round of parliamentary elections in 1991, the FLN nullified the
        > victory and banned the FIS. The resultant public outcry turned
        > violent, and the paramilitary wing of the FIS began targeting
        > security forces. The GIA emerged as one of several radical FIS
        > splinter factions that have continued to fight against Algeria's
        FLN-
        > supported, military-dominated regimes, from the government that
        ruled
        > the country until 1999 to the current, more conciliatory
        leadership."
        >
        > You see, actually the FIS won the elections, but that result was
        not
        > desirable, so it was nullified. Is democracy only desirable when
        > moderate parties are victorious? Is that democracy? I think that's
        a
        > tough question.



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      • Jos
        I think it s you. And I think you should stop blaming France for using their veto right (yes, veto RIGHT). In fact they didn t even use it, they just indicated
        Message 3 of 24 , Apr 1, 2003
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          I think it's you. And I think you should stop blaming France for
          using their veto right (yes, veto RIGHT). In fact they didn't even
          use it, they just indicated that they probably would.

          By the way, nice limericks and poems. But if that's all you got to
          prove you're right, then, well... let's say I'm not impressed. For
          the record:

          WWII: France (and Great Britain, India, Australia, South Africa and
          New Zealand) declared war on Germany in September 1939, immediately
          after Hitler's Germany invaded Poland. The USA did not follow. In
          fact the USA did not declare war on Germany at all, but Germany
          eventually declared war on the USA. In December 1941, over two years
          after the war had started, Japan attacked Pearl Harbor. As a result,
          the US Congress declared a state of war with Japan. Germany and Italy
          were Japan's allies, and they declared war on the USA three days
          later.

          WWI: This war started in July 1914 with the assassination of the
          Austrian Archduke Franz Ferdinand. It quickly developed into a World
          War. The USA, however, decided to be neutral. Then, in January 1917,
          when Germany announced a policy of unrestricted submarine warfare,
          the United States cut diplomatic ties with Germany. And it was only
          after the sinking of five U.S. vessels that Woodrow Wilson formally
          declared war on Germany, on April 6, 1917 (again, over two years,
          almost three years in fact, after the start of the war).

          Again, these poems don't impress me at all. As I said in previous
          posts, I'm talking about here and now. If you want to talk about WWI
          or WWII, fine, but don't think you can you can somehow justify
          today's US policy by doing so.

          Another thing: I don't think YankeeDog needs your help.

          Jos

          --- In know-it-all@yahoogroups.com, yearight <yearight6913@y...>
          wrote:
          >
          > is it me...or does jos just not understand whats goin on
        • Jos
          I don t think your seriously advocating the rights of majorities over minorities, are you? Your defending intolerance, and I don t believe thats you Jaap.
          Message 4 of 24 , Apr 1, 2003
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            "I don't think your seriously advocating the rights of majorities
            over minorities, are you? Your defending intolerance, and I don't
            believe thats you Jaap."

            You're right, I'm not defending intolerance, and I'm not Jaap. All I
            said was that "imposing democracy" is difficult in a country where a
            large percentage of the people wants "strict and narrow beliefs". I
            just wanted to know your views on that. It seems democracy has its
            limits. Like what happens when 80 or 90 percent of a population vote
            for a rather extremist party?

            Oh, one more question: when wil the USA attack Algeria?


            --- In know-it-all@yahoogroups.com, "iizthatiiz" <iizthatiiz@y...>
            wrote:
            The U.S did'nt 'blow up' the U.N., nor did the French. The charter
            of the U.N. wasn't designed to deal with today's world. Global
            stateless terrorism didn't exist in the 1940's.(yes, I realize Iraq
            is a 'state', but I believe I've already iterated why, and how Iraq
            is a key part of the war against terror. The U.N. isn't dead, it
            just needs a little retooling. Our own U.S. constitution has 27
            amendments to it, and I've no doubt, the future will see more. I can
            think of many, many possible reasons why Germany and France broke
            away from the U.S and the U.K over Iraq, but I won't go into them
            here. I still consider both France, and Germany strong, and valuable
            allies. They both continue to provide heavy assistance in the war on
            terror in many ways. The Western world has its differences, but none
            of us want a world where 5 billion people are forced to bow towards
            Mecca.

            > What if a large percentage of a population wants "strict and narrow
            beliefs" <

            I don't think your seriously advocating the rights of majorities
            over minorities, are you? Your defending intolerance, and I don't
            believe thats you Jaap. We live in a world where every country hosts
            many different cultures. People have a right to live in dignity, no
            matter where they are born.

            Re: Algeria, your synopsis neatly sums up much of recent Algerian
            history. The Algerian military did indeed overturn the results of
            the 91 election. Whether it was a free a fair election is certainly
            open to debate. When Islamicists tell village elders that their
            village may be wiped out if the vote doesn't go their way, that may
            influence some voters. Islamicist violence in Algeria started long
            before 1991. Nor can anyone claim that Algerian Islamicists limit
            their terror to their home soil. Algerian terror groups have been
            involved in European terror for decades. It's guess-timated that at
            least 25% of Al Qaeda terror cells are Algerian. The terrorist
            caught carrying explosives over the U.S.-Canadian border on his way
            to take out Los Angeles International Airport was an Algerian. The
            recent Ricin terror cells found through Europe were Algerians. This
            is no domestic squabble on their part. Algerian Islamicists are up
            to their neck in global plots. There are some leaders in the Islamic
            world resisting against the spread of Islamicism. I'm glad the
            Algerian military is part of it.

            , "Jos" <kramer@d...> wrote:
            > YankeeDog... I have a few comments.
            >
            > Interesting. "To impose democracy, and give the U.S. a permanent
            > foothold in the Middle East." In that case, may I suggest Bush not
            to
            > abuse - and blow up - the UN (and blaming the French for it) and
            > pretend it's about illegal weapons of mass destruction?
            >
            > Another thing, "imposing democracy" can be quite hard. What if a
            > large percentage of a population wants "strict and narrow beliefs",
            > as you put it? You mentioned the GIA. Here's some background
            > information on the GIA:
            >
            > "The GIA was formed out of a bitter struggle for control of Algeria
            > between Islamists and the country's authoritarian leadership. After
            > winning independence from France in 1962, the country was governed
            by
            > a socialist party called the National Liberation Front (FLN).
            > Following a series of youth riots in the late 1980s, the FLN
            allowed
            > the country's first multiparty elections. When a party of moderate
            > and radical Islamists called the Islamic Salvation Front (FIS) won
            a
            > round of parliamentary elections in 1991, the FLN nullified the
            > victory and banned the FIS. The resultant public outcry turned
            > violent, and the paramilitary wing of the FIS began targeting
            > security forces. The GIA emerged as one of several radical FIS
            > splinter factions that have continued to fight against Algeria's
            FLN-
            > supported, military-dominated regimes, from the government that
            ruled
            > the country until 1999 to the current, more conciliatory
            leadership."
            >
            > You see, actually the FIS won the elections, but that result was
            not
            > desirable, so it was nullified. Is democracy only desirable when
            > moderate parties are victorious? Is that democracy? I think that's
            a
            > tough question.
          • Samson
            A better question is when will the USA attack france? Got any french travel plans Jos? ... From: Jos To: know-it-all@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, April 01,
            Message 5 of 24 , Apr 1, 2003
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              A better question is when will the USA attack france? Got any french travel plans Jos?
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Jos
              Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2003 11:08 PM
              Subject: [#knowitall] Re: The War On Terror

              "I don't think your seriously advocating the rights of majorities
              over minorities, are you? Your defending intolerance, and I don't
              believe thats you Jaap."

              You're right, I'm not defending intolerance, and I'm not Jaap. All I
              said was that "imposing democracy" is difficult in a country where a
              large percentage of the people wants "strict and narrow beliefs". I
              just wanted to know your views on that. It seems democracy has its
              limits. Like what happens when 80 or 90 percent of a population vote
              for a rather extremist party?

              Oh, one more question: when wil the USA attack Algeria?


              --- In know-it-all@yahoogroups.com, "iizthatiiz" <iizthatiiz@y...>
              wrote:
              The U.S did'nt 'blow up' the U.N., nor did the French. The charter
              of the U.N. wasn't designed to deal with today's world. Global
              stateless terrorism didn't exist in the 1940's.(yes, I realize Iraq
              is a 'state', but I believe I've already iterated why, and how Iraq
              is a key part of the war against terror. The U.N. isn't dead, it
              just needs a little retooling. Our own U.S. constitution has 27
              amendments to it, and I've no doubt, the future will see more. I can
              think of many, many possible reasons why Germany and France broke
              away from the U.S and the U.K over Iraq, but I won't go into them
              here. I still consider both France, and Germany strong, and valuable
              allies. They both continue to provide heavy assistance in the war on
              terror in many ways. The Western world has its differences, but none
              of us want a world where 5 billion people are forced to bow towards
              Mecca.

              > What if a large percentage of a population wants "strict and narrow
              beliefs" <

              I don't think your seriously advocating the rights of majorities
              over minorities, are you? Your defending intolerance, and I don't
              believe thats you Jaap. We live in a world where every country hosts
              many different cultures. People have a right to live in dignity, no
              matter where they are born.

              Re: Algeria, your synopsis neatly sums up much of recent Algerian
              history. The Algerian military did indeed overturn the results of
              the 91 election. Whether it was a free a fair election is certainly
              open to debate. When Islamicists tell village elders that their
              village may be wiped out if the vote doesn't go their way, that may
              influence some voters. Islamicist violence in Algeria started long
              before 1991. Nor can anyone claim that Algerian Islamicists limit
              their terror to their home soil. Algerian terror groups have been
              involved in European terror for decades. It's guess-timated that at
              least 25% of Al Qaeda terror cells are Algerian. The terrorist
              caught carrying explosives over the U.S.-Canadian border on his way
              to take out Los Angeles International Airport was an Algerian. The
              recent Ricin terror cells found through Europe were Algerians. This
              is no domestic squabble on their part. Algerian Islamicists are up
              to their neck in global plots. There are some leaders in the Islamic
              world resisting against the spread of Islamicism. I'm glad the
              Algerian military is part of it.

              , "Jos" <kramer@d...> wrote:
              > YankeeDog... I have a few comments.
              >
              > Interesting. "To impose democracy, and give the U.S. a permanent
              > foothold in the Middle East." In that case, may I suggest Bush not
              to
              > abuse - and blow up - the UN (and blaming the French for it) and
              > pretend it's about illegal weapons of mass destruction?
              >
              > Another thing, "imposing democracy" can be quite hard. What if a
              > large percentage of a population wants "strict and narrow beliefs",
              > as you put it? You mentioned the GIA. Here's some background
              > information on the GIA:
              >
              > "The GIA was formed out of a bitter struggle for control of Algeria
              > between Islamists and the country's authoritarian leadership. After
              > winning independence from France in 1962, the country was governed
              by
              > a socialist party called the National Liberation Front (FLN).
              > Following a series of youth riots in the late 1980s, the FLN
              allowed
              > the country's first multiparty elections. When a party of moderate
              > and radical Islamists called the Islamic Salvation Front (FIS) won
              a
              > round of parliamentary elections in 1991, the FLN nullified the
              > victory and banned the FIS. The resultant public outcry turned
              > violent, and the paramilitary wing of the FIS began targeting
              > security forces. The GIA emerged as one of several radical FIS
              > splinter factions that have continued to fight against Algeria's
              FLN-
              > supported, military-dominated regimes, from the government that
              ruled
              > the country until 1999 to the current, more conciliatory
              leadership."
              >
              > You see, actually the FIS won the elections, but that result was
              not
              > desirable, so it was nullified. Is democracy only desirable when
              > moderate parties are victorious? Is that democracy? I think that's
              a
              > tough question.




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            • iizthatiiz
              More on WWI: In 1914, as war erupted in Europe, Woodrow Wilson made an official proclaimation of American neutrality. None of the nations involved was our
              Message 6 of 24 , Apr 2, 2003
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                More on WWI: In 1914, as war erupted in Europe, Woodrow Wilson made
                an official proclaimation of American neutrality. None of the
                nations involved was our enemy. To be blunt, we did not much
                understand, or admire your world of Archdukes, Kings and Kaisers. In
                fact, just 140 years prior, we fought a war to rid ourselves of
                them. After the American Revolution, the people wanted to make
                George Washington a king. But he said no. We had just fought a war
                to free ourselves of that out-moded system of government. Wiser
                minds prevailed. You might say that democracy was 'imposed' upon
                America by a very, very small group of people we call "Our Founding
                Fathers".

                In 1914, the United States did not have great fleets of iron
                warships. New technologies and methods of war were upon the world.
                Artillery instead of cannon. Gases and chemicals. Trench warfare.
                Things we knew little of. An ocean divided the continents, connected
                only by dits and dashes of morse code. Secure communications between
                the continents took weeks to deliver by hand. Conversations took
                months. In 1914 the United States was hardly a super-power. We were
                a growing nation without the wealth of Europe. It was a war we had
                no interest in, nor enemies.

                As the European war raged on, Germany did not much like our policies
                of free trade with their enemies, and ships were sunk. Still -
                neutrality. Diplomatic absurdities developed. German warships would
                patiently for crews and passengers to unload before the ships were
                sunk. But as you stated, eventually the Germans lost all restraint,
                and began killing without mercy, or warning. In 1917, Woodrow Wilson
                delivered a "message of war" to Congress. Days later, Congress
                declared war. We did not enter World War I to fight for your kings.
                We entered World War I for our right to trade freely.

                More on WWII: After the 'Great War', the victorious powers of Europe
                enacted a terrible economic vengence upon Germany. A policy that led
                to hatred and fascism. The Europeans did not have the foresight of a
                man like Abraham Lincoln. It was Lincoln's intention after the
                American Civil War to be very generous with the South, full amnesty,
                reconstruction, in order to form a "more perfect union". In 1865 Lee
                surrendered to Grant, but Lincoln was assassinated days later. His
                successor, Andrew Johnson had different ideas. He intended to rule
                the South more firmly than Lincoln had intended. It took a
                congressional override of a presidental veto to pass the first
                reconstruction act in 1867. By 1868, Grant was president. By 1870,
                all of the southern states had been readmitted to the Union of the
                United States of America. Reconstruction wasn't done well, and it
                wasn't done perfectly, but it was done. And it saved this country.

                In 1939, the United States was into its second decade of the great
                depression. Americans again, had little interest in a European war.
                We had fought the Great War, to preserve our trade rights. It seemed
                for nothing. The Europeans were at it again. Wilson's League of
                Nations had failed. War spread through Europe. Not only were the
                American people opposed to involvement, the United States didn't have
                the capacity for another war. In 1939, the U.S. had essentially the
                same navy it ended World War I with. No shiny new fleets. No modern
                tanks. No squadrons of aircraft. All the United States had was a
                man named Franklin Roosevelt. A man who saw the dangers of fascism
                and imperialism. Roosevelt and Churchill developed a plan to prepare
                the United States for war. It was called Lend-Lease. The United
                States would arm itself by selling arms to England and her allies, on
                credit. An economic engine went to work, pulling the United States
                out of its depression. Ships were built. Tanks. Planes. And they
                were sent to Europe, all on credit.

                By 1941, the economy of the United States was prepared for war. It's
                people weren't. Oh, Hitler was a bastard all right, but he wasn't
                our bastard. One of more interesting 'conspiracy' theories of the
                20th century revolves around Pearl Harbor. Germany and Japan were
                allies. In July of 1941 the United States threatened Japan with an
                oil embargo unless Japan withdrew from China. America knew that
                without oil, Japanese agression in the Pacific would falter. The
                Japanese practically told America that an embargo would lead to war.
                On December 7th of that same year, Pearl Harbor was attacked.
                Americans don't like to be killed. When 3000 Americans died on
                September 11th, that lesson was lost on the Islamicists.

                The mood of the country changed overnight. Americans by the tens of
                thousands eagerly enlisted. My own grandfather at the age of 15, ran
                away from home, lied about his age, and joined up. Roosevelt and
                Churchill had prevailed. Lend-Lease had worked. By the end of the
                war, the United States had given its allies over 49 billion dollars
                in credits (in 1940's dollars). And the war was won. After the war,
                the Marshall Plan was instituted. Over twelve billion dollars in aid
                was given to Europe. Given. And money well spent by us too. The
                economy of Europe was rebuilt, democratic institutions were
                preserved, and the threat of Soviet expansion through a weakened
                Europe was prevented. A lasting peace ensued. Western Europe hasn't
                had a war since.

                I mention things like Southern reconstruction, and the Marshall plan
                for a reason. The United States doesn't only know how to wage war.
                We know a thing or two about waging peace as well.

                One last thought if I may Jos. I don't take the time to write this
                stuff because I'm against you. It's because I'm with you.

                YankeeDog


                --- In know-it-all@yahoogroups.com, "Jos" <kramer@d...> wrote:
                > I think it's you. And I think you should stop blaming France for
                > using their veto right (yes, veto RIGHT). In fact they didn't even
                > use it, they just indicated that they probably would.
                >
                > By the way, nice limericks and poems. But if that's all you got to
                > prove you're right, then, well... let's say I'm not impressed. For
                > the record:
                >
                > WWII: France (and Great Britain, India, Australia, South Africa and
                > New Zealand) declared war on Germany in September 1939, immediately
                > after Hitler's Germany invaded Poland. The USA did not follow. In
                > fact the USA did not declare war on Germany at all, but Germany
                > eventually declared war on the USA. In December 1941, over two
                years
                > after the war had started, Japan attacked Pearl Harbor. As a
                result,
                > the US Congress declared a state of war with Japan. Germany and
                Italy
                > were Japan's allies, and they declared war on the USA three days
                > later.
                >
                > WWI: This war started in July 1914 with the assassination of the
                > Austrian Archduke Franz Ferdinand. It quickly developed into a
                World
                > War. The USA, however, decided to be neutral. Then, in January
                1917,
                > when Germany announced a policy of unrestricted submarine warfare,
                > the United States cut diplomatic ties with Germany. And it was only
                > after the sinking of five U.S. vessels that Woodrow Wilson formally
                > declared war on Germany, on April 6, 1917 (again, over two years,
                > almost three years in fact, after the start of the war).
                >
                > Again, these poems don't impress me at all. As I said in previous
                > posts, I'm talking about here and now. If you want to talk about
                WWI
                > or WWII, fine, but don't think you can you can somehow justify
                > today's US policy by doing so.
                >
                > Another thing: I don't think YankeeDog needs your help.
                >
                > Jos
                >
                > --- In know-it-all@yahoogroups.com, yearight <yearight6913@y...>
                > wrote:
                > >
                > > is it me...or does jos just not understand whats goin on
              • Andrea Campbell
                My husbands uncle was Patton s personal physician (sic).. when he slapped that soldier.. head doctor turned down by Canada..under fit to serve.. went to the
                Message 7 of 24 , Apr 2, 2003
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                  My husbands uncle was Patton's personal physician (sic).. when he slapped
                  that soldier.. head doctor turned down by Canada..under fit to serve.. went
                  to the states and stayed there

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: iizthatiiz [mailto:iizthatiiz@...]
                  Sent: April 2, 2003 6:02 AM
                  To: know-it-all@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [#knowitall] Re: The mouse that snored

                  More on WWI: In 1914, as war erupted in Europe, Woodrow Wilson made
                  an official proclaimation of American neutrality. None of the
                  nations involved was our enemy. To be blunt, we did not much
                  understand, or admire your world of Archdukes, Kings and Kaisers. In
                  fact, just 140 years prior, we fought a war to rid ourselves of
                  them. After the American Revolution, the people wanted to make
                  George Washington a king. But he said no. We had just fought a war
                  to free ourselves of that out-moded system of government. Wiser
                  minds prevailed. You might say that democracy was 'imposed' upon
                  America by a very, very small group of people we call "Our Founding
                  Fathers".

                  In 1914, the United States did not have great fleets of iron
                  warships. New technologies and methods of war were upon the world.
                  Artillery instead of cannon. Gases and chemicals. Trench warfare.
                  Things we knew little of. An ocean divided the continents, connected
                  only by dits and dashes of morse code. Secure communications between
                  the continents took weeks to deliver by hand. Conversations took
                  months. In 1914 the United States was hardly a super-power. We were
                  a growing nation without the wealth of Europe. It was a war we had
                  no interest in, nor enemies.

                  As the European war raged on, Germany did not much like our policies
                  of free trade with their enemies, and ships were sunk. Still -
                  neutrality. Diplomatic absurdities developed. German warships would
                  patiently for crews and passengers to unload before the ships were
                  sunk. But as you stated, eventually the Germans lost all restraint,
                  and began killing without mercy, or warning. In 1917, Woodrow Wilson
                  delivered a "message of war" to Congress. Days later, Congress
                  declared war. We did not enter World War I to fight for your kings.
                  We entered World War I for our right to trade freely.

                  More on WWII: After the 'Great War', the victorious powers of Europe
                  enacted a terrible economic vengence upon Germany. A policy that led
                  to hatred and fascism. The Europeans did not have the foresight of a
                  man like Abraham Lincoln. It was Lincoln's intention after the
                  American Civil War to be very generous with the South, full amnesty,
                  reconstruction, in order to form a "more perfect union". In 1865 Lee
                  surrendered to Grant, but Lincoln was assassinated days later. His
                  successor, Andrew Johnson had different ideas. He intended to rule
                  the South more firmly than Lincoln had intended. It took a
                  congressional override of a presidental veto to pass the first
                  reconstruction act in 1867. By 1868, Grant was president. By 1870,
                  all of the southern states had been readmitted to the Union of the
                  United States of America. Reconstruction wasn't done well, and it
                  wasn't done perfectly, but it was done. And it saved this country.

                  In 1939, the United States was into its second decade of the great
                  depression. Americans again, had little interest in a European war.
                  We had fought the Great War, to preserve our trade rights. It seemed
                  for nothing. The Europeans were at it again. Wilson's League of
                  Nations had failed. War spread through Europe. Not only were the
                  American people opposed to involvement, the United States didn't have
                  the capacity for another war. In 1939, the U.S. had essentially the
                  same navy it ended World War I with. No shiny new fleets. No modern
                  tanks. No squadrons of aircraft. All the United States had was a
                  man named Franklin Roosevelt. A man who saw the dangers of fascism
                  and imperialism. Roosevelt and Churchill developed a plan to prepare
                  the United States for war. It was called Lend-Lease. The United
                  States would arm itself by selling arms to England and her allies, on
                  credit. An economic engine went to work, pulling the United States
                  out of its depression. Ships were built. Tanks. Planes. And they
                  were sent to Europe, all on credit.

                  By 1941, the economy of the United States was prepared for war. It's
                  people weren't. Oh, Hitler was a bastard all right, but he wasn't
                  our bastard. One of more interesting 'conspiracy' theories of the
                  20th century revolves around Pearl Harbor. Germany and Japan were
                  allies. In July of 1941 the United States threatened Japan with an
                  oil embargo unless Japan withdrew from China. America knew that
                  without oil, Japanese agression in the Pacific would falter. The
                  Japanese practically told America that an embargo would lead to war.
                  On December 7th of that same year, Pearl Harbor was attacked.
                  Americans don't like to be killed. When 3000 Americans died on
                  September 11th, that lesson was lost on the Islamicists.

                  The mood of the country changed overnight. Americans by the tens of
                  thousands eagerly enlisted. My own grandfather at the age of 15, ran
                  away from home, lied about his age, and joined up. Roosevelt and
                  Churchill had prevailed. Lend-Lease had worked. By the end of the
                  war, the United States had given its allies over 49 billion dollars
                  in credits (in 1940's dollars). And the war was won. After the war,
                  the Marshall Plan was instituted. Over twelve billion dollars in aid
                  was given to Europe. Given. And money well spent by us too. The
                  economy of Europe was rebuilt, democratic institutions were
                  preserved, and the threat of Soviet expansion through a weakened
                  Europe was prevented. A lasting peace ensued. Western Europe hasn't
                  had a war since.

                  I mention things like Southern reconstruction, and the Marshall plan
                  for a reason. The United States doesn't only know how to wage war.
                  We know a thing or two about waging peace as well.

                  One last thought if I may Jos. I don't take the time to write this
                  stuff because I'm against you. It's because I'm with you.

                  YankeeDog


                  --- In know-it-all@yahoogroups.com, "Jos" <kramer@d...> wrote:
                  > I think it's you. And I think you should stop blaming France for
                  > using their veto right (yes, veto RIGHT). In fact they didn't even
                  > use it, they just indicated that they probably would.
                  >
                  > By the way, nice limericks and poems. But if that's all you got to
                  > prove you're right, then, well... let's say I'm not impressed. For
                  > the record:
                  >
                  > WWII: France (and Great Britain, India, Australia, South Africa and
                  > New Zealand) declared war on Germany in September 1939, immediately
                  > after Hitler's Germany invaded Poland. The USA did not follow. In
                  > fact the USA did not declare war on Germany at all, but Germany
                  > eventually declared war on the USA. In December 1941, over two
                  years
                  > after the war had started, Japan attacked Pearl Harbor. As a
                  result,
                  > the US Congress declared a state of war with Japan. Germany and
                  Italy
                  > were Japan's allies, and they declared war on the USA three days
                  > later.
                  >
                  > WWI: This war started in July 1914 with the assassination of the
                  > Austrian Archduke Franz Ferdinand. It quickly developed into a
                  World
                  > War. The USA, however, decided to be neutral. Then, in January
                  1917,
                  > when Germany announced a policy of unrestricted submarine warfare,
                  > the United States cut diplomatic ties with Germany. And it was only
                  > after the sinking of five U.S. vessels that Woodrow Wilson formally
                  > declared war on Germany, on April 6, 1917 (again, over two years,
                  > almost three years in fact, after the start of the war).
                  >
                  > Again, these poems don't impress me at all. As I said in previous
                  > posts, I'm talking about here and now. If you want to talk about
                  WWI
                  > or WWII, fine, but don't think you can you can somehow justify
                  > today's US policy by doing so.
                  >
                  > Another thing: I don't think YankeeDog needs your help.
                  >
                  > Jos
                  >
                  > --- In know-it-all@yahoogroups.com, yearight <yearight6913@y...>
                  > wrote:
                  > >
                  > > is it me...or does jos just not understand whats goin on



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                • daisy
                  I think they re about sixth on the list...right after Holland ;) just kidding :)) ... From: Jos To: Sent:
                  Message 8 of 24 , Apr 2, 2003
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                    I think they're about sixth on the list...right after Holland ;)
                    just kidding :))

                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "Jos" <kramer@...>
                    To: <know-it-all@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2003 1:08 AM
                    Subject: [#knowitall] Re: The War On Terror


                    "I don't think your seriously advocating the rights of majorities
                    over minorities, are you? Your defending intolerance, and I don't
                    believe thats you Jaap."

                    You're right, I'm not defending intolerance, and I'm not Jaap. All I
                    said was that "imposing democracy" is difficult in a country where a
                    large percentage of the people wants "strict and narrow beliefs". I
                    just wanted to know your views on that. It seems democracy has its
                    limits. Like what happens when 80 or 90 percent of a population vote
                    for a rather extremist party?

                    Oh, one more question: when wil the USA attack Algeria?


                    --- In know-it-all@yahoogroups.com, "iizthatiiz" <iizthatiiz@y...>
                    wrote:
                    The U.S did'nt 'blow up' the U.N., nor did the French. The charter
                    of the U.N. wasn't designed to deal with today's world. Global
                    stateless terrorism didn't exist in the 1940's.(yes, I realize Iraq
                    is a 'state', but I believe I've already iterated why, and how Iraq
                    is a key part of the war against terror. The U.N. isn't dead, it
                    just needs a little retooling. Our own U.S. constitution has 27
                    amendments to it, and I've no doubt, the future will see more. I can
                    think of many, many possible reasons why Germany and France broke
                    away from the U.S and the U.K over Iraq, but I won't go into them
                    here. I still consider both France, and Germany strong, and valuable
                    allies. They both continue to provide heavy assistance in the war on
                    terror in many ways. The Western world has its differences, but none
                    of us want a world where 5 billion people are forced to bow towards
                    Mecca.

                    > What if a large percentage of a population wants "strict and narrow
                    beliefs" <

                    I don't think your seriously advocating the rights of majorities
                    over minorities, are you? Your defending intolerance, and I don't
                    believe thats you Jaap. We live in a world where every country hosts
                    many different cultures. People have a right to live in dignity, no
                    matter where they are born.

                    Re: Algeria, your synopsis neatly sums up much of recent Algerian
                    history. The Algerian military did indeed overturn the results of
                    the 91 election. Whether it was a free a fair election is certainly
                    open to debate. When Islamicists tell village elders that their
                    village may be wiped out if the vote doesn't go their way, that may
                    influence some voters. Islamicist violence in Algeria started long
                    before 1991. Nor can anyone claim that Algerian Islamicists limit
                    their terror to their home soil. Algerian terror groups have been
                    involved in European terror for decades. It's guess-timated that at
                    least 25% of Al Qaeda terror cells are Algerian. The terrorist
                    caught carrying explosives over the U.S.-Canadian border on his way
                    to take out Los Angeles International Airport was an Algerian. The
                    recent Ricin terror cells found through Europe were Algerians. This
                    is no domestic squabble on their part. Algerian Islamicists are up
                    to their neck in global plots. There are some leaders in the Islamic
                    world resisting against the spread of Islamicism. I'm glad the
                    Algerian military is part of it.

                    , "Jos" <kramer@d...> wrote:
                    > YankeeDog... I have a few comments.
                    >
                    > Interesting. "To impose democracy, and give the U.S. a permanent
                    > foothold in the Middle East." In that case, may I suggest Bush not
                    to
                    > abuse - and blow up - the UN (and blaming the French for it) and
                    > pretend it's about illegal weapons of mass destruction?
                    >
                    > Another thing, "imposing democracy" can be quite hard. What if a
                    > large percentage of a population wants "strict and narrow beliefs",
                    > as you put it? You mentioned the GIA. Here's some background
                    > information on the GIA:
                    >
                    > "The GIA was formed out of a bitter struggle for control of Algeria
                    > between Islamists and the country's authoritarian leadership. After
                    > winning independence from France in 1962, the country was governed
                    by
                    > a socialist party called the National Liberation Front (FLN).
                    > Following a series of youth riots in the late 1980s, the FLN
                    allowed
                    > the country's first multiparty elections. When a party of moderate
                    > and radical Islamists called the Islamic Salvation Front (FIS) won
                    a
                    > round of parliamentary elections in 1991, the FLN nullified the
                    > victory and banned the FIS. The resultant public outcry turned
                    > violent, and the paramilitary wing of the FIS began targeting
                    > security forces. The GIA emerged as one of several radical FIS
                    > splinter factions that have continued to fight against Algeria's
                    FLN-
                    > supported, military-dominated regimes, from the government that
                    ruled
                    > the country until 1999 to the current, more conciliatory
                    leadership."
                    >
                    > You see, actually the FIS won the elections, but that result was
                    not
                    > desirable, so it was nullified. Is democracy only desirable when
                    > moderate parties are victorious? Is that democracy? I think that's
                    a
                    > tough question.




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                  • iizthatiiz
                    1st ... sorry for calling you Jaap. I was misinformed. I don t know your #kia name. I m having a hard time matching up group names with kia names..... and i
                    Message 9 of 24 , Apr 2, 2003
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                      1st ... sorry for calling you Jaap. I was misinformed. I don't
                      know your #kia name. I'm having a hard time matching up group names
                      with kia names..... and i don't want to learn both names for one
                      person. I'll go nuts. I try to sign post of my posts with my kia
                      name.

                      I believe one of the positions I advocated is that all cultures must
                      evolve. A large percentage of people do not get to impose their
                      culture on minorities. Not on my planet. Minorities have rights too.

                      Let me try an analogy. Here in America, strip bars are legal. The
                      majority of Americans do not want strip bars. But our constitution
                      guarantees us freedoms. How do Americans solve problems like that.
                      Through zoning laws. Cities pass statutes. No strip club next to
                      the school. No strip club in residential areas perhaps. Nor next to
                      a church. We create zones, within our culture, where everyones
                      rights are protected. We tolerate each other. Not kill each other
                      (at least not over that). The difference would be that. The
                      majority of Americans aren't trying to impose a ban on stripping on
                      this planet, even though thats what they believe is right.

                      I don't believe the U.S is planning any attack on Algeria. Algeria,
                      on the books, is a secular government. Believe it or not, their
                      government is fighting Islamicism too. Many in their government die
                      for that. Maybe trying to contain it would be a more apt term. We
                      attack Algeria, when the government of that country actively engages
                      in attacking us. I didn't say it would be easy. If it were easy, it
                      would have already been done. After the war, if I were Bush, I would
                      take Iraqi oil, and make everyone in that country happy in a way they
                      didn't know was possible. I would give their lives meaning on this
                      world, not promises of paradise in death. Islamicism is filling a
                      void in the muslim world. When people have nothing to eat, they will
                      eat anything. I would set a model for the muslim world. Show them
                      that societies don't need to have great disparages in wealth.
                      Hussein has taken the Iraqi peoples wealth, and spent a great deal of
                      it on death. I think we can do better.

                      YD

                      --- In know-it-all@yahoogroups.com, "Jos" <kramer@d...> wrote:
                      >
                      > You're right, I'm not defending intolerance, and I'm not Jaap. All
                      I
                      > said was that "imposing democracy" is difficult in a country where
                      a
                      > large percentage of the people wants "strict and narrow beliefs". I
                      > just wanted to know your views on that. It seems democracy has its
                      > limits. Like what happens when 80 or 90 percent of a population
                      vote
                      > for a rather extremist party?
                      >
                      > Oh, one more question: when wil the USA attack Algeria?
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In know-it-all@yahoogroups.com, "iizthatiiz" <iizthatiiz@y...>
                      > wrote:
                      > The U.S did'nt 'blow up' the U.N., nor did the French. The charter
                      > of the U.N. wasn't designed to deal with today's world. Global
                      > stateless terrorism didn't exist in the 1940's.(yes, I realize Iraq
                      > is a 'state', but I believe I've already iterated why, and how Iraq
                      > is a key part of the war against terror. The U.N. isn't dead, it
                      > just needs a little retooling. Our own U.S. constitution has 27
                      > amendments to it, and I've no doubt, the future will see more. I
                      can
                      > think of many, many possible reasons why Germany and France broke
                      > away from the U.S and the U.K over Iraq, but I won't go into them
                      > here. I still consider both France, and Germany strong, and
                      valuable
                      > allies. They both continue to provide heavy assistance in the war
                      on
                      > terror in many ways. The Western world has its differences, but
                      none
                      > of us want a world where 5 billion people are forced to bow towards
                      > Mecca.
                      >
                      > > What if a large percentage of a population wants "strict and
                      narrow
                      > beliefs" <
                      >
                      > I don't think your seriously advocating the rights of majorities
                      > over minorities, are you? Your defending intolerance, and I don't
                      > believe thats you Jaap. We live in a world where every country
                      hosts
                      > many different cultures. People have a right to live in dignity, no
                      > matter where they are born.
                      >
                      > Re: Algeria, your synopsis neatly sums up much of recent Algerian
                      > history. The Algerian military did indeed overturn the results of
                      > the 91 election. Whether it was a free a fair election is certainly
                      > open to debate. When Islamicists tell village elders that their
                      > village may be wiped out if the vote doesn't go their way, that may
                      > influence some voters. Islamicist violence in Algeria started long
                      > before 1991. Nor can anyone claim that Algerian Islamicists limit
                      > their terror to their home soil. Algerian terror groups have been
                      > involved in European terror for decades. It's guess-timated that at
                      > least 25% of Al Qaeda terror cells are Algerian. The terrorist
                      > caught carrying explosives over the U.S.-Canadian border on his way
                      > to take out Los Angeles International Airport was an Algerian. The
                      > recent Ricin terror cells found through Europe were Algerians. This
                      > is no domestic squabble on their part. Algerian Islamicists are up
                      > to their neck in global plots. There are some leaders in the
                      Islamic
                      > world resisting against the spread of Islamicism. I'm glad the
                      > Algerian military is part of it.
                      >
                      > , "Jos" <kramer@d...> wrote:
                      > > YankeeDog... I have a few comments.
                      > >
                      > > Interesting. "To impose democracy, and give the U.S. a permanent
                      > > foothold in the Middle East." In that case, may I suggest Bush
                      not
                      > to
                      > > abuse - and blow up - the UN (and blaming the French for it) and
                      > > pretend it's about illegal weapons of mass destruction?
                      > >
                      > > Another thing, "imposing democracy" can be quite hard. What if a
                      > > large percentage of a population wants "strict and narrow
                      beliefs",
                      > > as you put it? You mentioned the GIA. Here's some background
                      > > information on the GIA:
                      > >
                      > > "The GIA was formed out of a bitter struggle for control of
                      Algeria
                      > > between Islamists and the country's authoritarian leadership.
                      After
                      > > winning independence from France in 1962, the country was
                      governed
                      > by
                      > > a socialist party called the National Liberation Front (FLN).
                      > > Following a series of youth riots in the late 1980s, the FLN
                      > allowed
                      > > the country's first multiparty elections. When a party of
                      moderate
                      > > and radical Islamists called the Islamic Salvation Front (FIS)
                      won
                      > a
                      > > round of parliamentary elections in 1991, the FLN nullified the
                      > > victory and banned the FIS. The resultant public outcry turned
                      > > violent, and the paramilitary wing of the FIS began targeting
                      > > security forces. The GIA emerged as one of several radical FIS
                      > > splinter factions that have continued to fight against Algeria's
                      > FLN-
                      > > supported, military-dominated regimes, from the government that
                      > ruled
                      > > the country until 1999 to the current, more conciliatory
                      > leadership."
                      > >
                      > > You see, actually the FIS won the elections, but that result was
                      > not
                      > > desirable, so it was nullified. Is democracy only desirable when
                      > > moderate parties are victorious? Is that democracy? I think
                      that's
                      > a
                      > > tough question.
                    • Doktor Eisenbart
                      You are absolutely right in what you said about the 2 World Wars. And we learned our lesson about staying uninvolved for so long, which is why we aren t
                      Message 10 of 24 , Apr 2, 2003
                      • 0 Attachment
                        You are absolutely right in what you said about the 2 World Wars. And we
                        learned our lesson about staying uninvolved for so long, which is why we
                        aren't standing around with our thumbs up our asses about Iraq.

                        The situation is SO similar to the rise of Hitler, it's kind of scary. Yeah,
                        the first Gulf War was much smaller than WW1. But there are similarities.
                        After the first WW, Germany was supposed to stay disarmed, with strict
                        limits on its military power. Germany under Hitler started to violate that,
                        and people did nothing, not even after he took land (until Poland). Iraq is
                        supposed to be disarmed, with strict limits on its military. Over the last
                        decade+, they've played childish games, kicking inspectors out, whining
                        about stuff, threatening us, etc. Hitler had stated clearly (in "Mein
                        Kampf") that world domination was his goal. Saddam has said the same. Hitler
                        killed his own people, especially Jews. Saddam has killed his own people,
                        especially Kurds.

                        Do you expect the USA to make the same mistake twice, and sit on our ass
                        until Saddam becomes so powerful that nothing short of a war the scale of
                        WW2 can stop him?!






                        >From: "Jos" <kramer@...>
                        >Reply-To: know-it-all@yahoogroups.com
                        >To: know-it-all@yahoogroups.com
                        >Subject: [#knowitall] Re: The mouse that snored
                        >Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2003 06:41:30 -0000
                        >
                        >I think it's you. And I think you should stop blaming France for
                        >using their veto right (yes, veto RIGHT). In fact they didn't even
                        >use it, they just indicated that they probably would.
                        >
                        >By the way, nice limericks and poems. But if that's all you got to
                        >prove you're right, then, well... let's say I'm not impressed. For
                        >the record:
                        >
                        >WWII: France (and Great Britain, India, Australia, South Africa and
                        >New Zealand) declared war on Germany in September 1939, immediately
                        >after Hitler's Germany invaded Poland. The USA did not follow. In
                        >fact the USA did not declare war on Germany at all, but Germany
                        >eventually declared war on the USA. In December 1941, over two years
                        >after the war had started, Japan attacked Pearl Harbor. As a result,
                        >the US Congress declared a state of war with Japan. Germany and Italy
                        >were Japan's allies, and they declared war on the USA three days
                        >later.
                        >
                        >WWI: This war started in July 1914 with the assassination of the
                        >Austrian Archduke Franz Ferdinand. It quickly developed into a World
                        >War. The USA, however, decided to be neutral. Then, in January 1917,
                        >when Germany announced a policy of unrestricted submarine warfare,
                        >the United States cut diplomatic ties with Germany. And it was only
                        >after the sinking of five U.S. vessels that Woodrow Wilson formally
                        >declared war on Germany, on April 6, 1917 (again, over two years,
                        >almost three years in fact, after the start of the war).
                        >
                        >Again, these poems don't impress me at all. As I said in previous
                        >posts, I'm talking about here and now. If you want to talk about WWI
                        >or WWII, fine, but don't think you can you can somehow justify
                        >today's US policy by doing so.
                        >
                        >Another thing: I don't think YankeeDog needs your help.
                        >
                        >Jos
                        >
                        >--- In know-it-all@yahoogroups.com, yearight <yearight6913@y...>
                        >wrote:
                        > >
                        > > is it me...or does jos just not understand whats goin on
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >Post message: know-it-all@yahoogroups.com
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                        >
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                        >
                        >


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                      • Karen B
                        I wonder if anyone has considered a historical fact. Every empire falls eventually. Capitalism and democracy will fall and crumble eventually as have most
                        Message 11 of 24 , Apr 2, 2003
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                          I wonder if anyone has considered a historical fact.
                          Every empire falls eventually. Capitalism and
                          democracy will fall and crumble eventually as have
                          most systems before it. It seems to be happening now.
                          The UN, called lame and ineffective by those that
                          disagree with it, decided in a democratic fashion (if
                          my understanding is correct) not to go to war with
                          Iraq at this time. The majority did not vote for a war
                          at this time. Some nations (in the minority) did not
                          agree but, because they had the fire power decided
                          against democracy. Does anyone else see this as an
                          ironic fact?

                          ^kira

                          --- iizthatiiz <iizthatiiz@...> wrote:
                          > More on WWI: In 1914, as war erupted in Europe,
                          > Woodrow Wilson made
                          > an official proclaimation of American neutrality.
                          > None of the
                          > nations involved was our enemy. To be blunt, we did
                          > not much
                          > understand, or admire your world of Archdukes, Kings
                          > and Kaisers. In
                          > fact, just 140 years prior, we fought a war to rid
                          > ourselves of
                          > them. After the American Revolution, the people
                          > wanted to make
                          > George Washington a king. But he said no. We had
                          > just fought a war
                          > to free ourselves of that out-moded system of
                          > government. Wiser
                          > minds prevailed. You might say that democracy was
                          > 'imposed' upon
                          > America by a very, very small group of people we
                          > call "Our Founding
                          > Fathers".
                          >
                          > In 1914, the United States did not have great fleets
                          > of iron
                          > warships. New technologies and methods of war were
                          > upon the world.
                          > Artillery instead of cannon. Gases and chemicals.
                          > Trench warfare.
                          > Things we knew little of. An ocean divided the
                          > continents, connected
                          > only by dits and dashes of morse code. Secure
                          > communications between
                          > the continents took weeks to deliver by hand.
                          > Conversations took
                          > months. In 1914 the United States was hardly a
                          > super-power. We were
                          > a growing nation without the wealth of Europe. It
                          > was a war we had
                          > no interest in, nor enemies.
                          >
                          > As the European war raged on, Germany did not much
                          > like our policies
                          > of free trade with their enemies, and ships were
                          > sunk. Still -
                          > neutrality. Diplomatic absurdities developed.
                          > German warships would
                          > patiently for crews and passengers to unload before
                          > the ships were
                          > sunk. But as you stated, eventually the Germans
                          > lost all restraint,
                          > and began killing without mercy, or warning. In
                          > 1917, Woodrow Wilson
                          > delivered a "message of war" to Congress. Days
                          > later, Congress
                          > declared war. We did not enter World War I to fight
                          > for your kings.
                          > We entered World War I for our right to trade
                          > freely.
                          >
                          > More on WWII: After the 'Great War', the victorious
                          > powers of Europe
                          > enacted a terrible economic vengence upon Germany.
                          > A policy that led
                          > to hatred and fascism. The Europeans did not have
                          > the foresight of a
                          > man like Abraham Lincoln. It was Lincoln's
                          > intention after the
                          > American Civil War to be very generous with the
                          > South, full amnesty,
                          > reconstruction, in order to form a "more perfect
                          > union". In 1865 Lee
                          > surrendered to Grant, but Lincoln was assassinated
                          > days later. His
                          > successor, Andrew Johnson had different ideas. He
                          > intended to rule
                          > the South more firmly than Lincoln had intended. It
                          > took a
                          > congressional override of a presidental veto to pass
                          > the first
                          > reconstruction act in 1867. By 1868, Grant was
                          > president. By 1870,
                          > all of the southern states had been readmitted to
                          > the Union of the
                          > United States of America. Reconstruction wasn't
                          > done well, and it
                          > wasn't done perfectly, but it was done. And it
                          > saved this country.
                          >
                          > In 1939, the United States was into its second
                          > decade of the great
                          > depression. Americans again, had little interest in
                          > a European war.
                          > We had fought the Great War, to preserve our trade
                          > rights. It seemed
                          > for nothing. The Europeans were at it again.
                          > Wilson's League of
                          > Nations had failed. War spread through Europe. Not
                          > only were the
                          > American people opposed to involvement, the United
                          > States didn't have
                          > the capacity for another war. In 1939, the U.S. had
                          > essentially the
                          > same navy it ended World War I with. No shiny new
                          > fleets. No modern
                          > tanks. No squadrons of aircraft. All the United
                          > States had was a
                          > man named Franklin Roosevelt. A man who saw the
                          > dangers of fascism
                          > and imperialism. Roosevelt and Churchill developed
                          > a plan to prepare
                          > the United States for war. It was called
                          > Lend-Lease. The United
                          > States would arm itself by selling arms to England
                          > and her allies, on
                          > credit. An economic engine went to work, pulling
                          > the United States
                          > out of its depression. Ships were built. Tanks.
                          > Planes. And they
                          > were sent to Europe, all on credit.
                          >
                          > By 1941, the economy of the United States was
                          > prepared for war. It's
                          > people weren't. Oh, Hitler was a bastard all right,
                          > but he wasn't
                          > our bastard. One of more interesting 'conspiracy'
                          > theories of the
                          > 20th century revolves around Pearl Harbor. Germany
                          > and Japan were
                          > allies. In July of 1941 the United States
                          > threatened Japan with an
                          > oil embargo unless Japan withdrew from China.
                          > America knew that
                          > without oil, Japanese agression in the Pacific would
                          > falter. The
                          > Japanese practically told America that an embargo
                          > would lead to war.
                          > On December 7th of that same year, Pearl Harbor was
                          > attacked.
                          > Americans don't like to be killed. When 3000
                          > Americans died on
                          > September 11th, that lesson was lost on the
                          > Islamicists.
                          >
                          > The mood of the country changed overnight.
                          > Americans by the tens of
                          > thousands eagerly enlisted. My own grandfather at
                          > the age of 15, ran
                          > away from home, lied about his age, and joined up.
                          > Roosevelt and
                          > Churchill had prevailed. Lend-Lease had worked. By
                          > the end of the
                          > war, the United States had given its allies over 49
                          > billion dollars
                          > in credits (in 1940's dollars). And the war was
                          > won. After the war,
                          > the Marshall Plan was instituted. Over twelve
                          > billion dollars in aid
                          > was given to Europe. Given. And money well spent
                          > by us too. The
                          > economy of Europe was rebuilt, democratic
                          > institutions were
                          > preserved, and the threat of Soviet expansion
                          > through a weakened
                          > Europe was prevented. A lasting peace ensued.
                          > Western Europe hasn't
                          > had a war since.
                          >
                          > I mention things like Southern reconstruction, and
                          > the Marshall plan
                          > for a reason. The United States doesn't only know
                          > how to wage war.
                          > We know a thing or two about waging peace as well.
                          >
                          > One last thought if I may Jos. I don't take the
                          > time to write this
                          > stuff because I'm against you. It's because I'm
                          > with you.
                          >
                          > YankeeDog
                          >
                          >
                          > --- In know-it-all@yahoogroups.com, "Jos"
                          > <kramer@d...> wrote:
                          > > I think it's you. And I think you should stop
                          > blaming France for
                          > > using their veto right (yes, veto RIGHT). In fact
                          > they didn't even
                          > > use it, they just indicated that they probably
                          > would.
                          > >
                          > > By the way, nice limericks and poems. But if
                          > that's all you got to
                          > > prove you're right, then, well... let's say I'm
                          > not impressed. For
                          > > the record:
                          > >
                          > > WWII: France (and Great Britain, India, Australia,
                          > South Africa and
                          > > New Zealand) declared war on Germany in September
                          > 1939, immediately
                          > > after Hitler's Germany invaded Poland. The USA did
                          > not
                          === message truncated ===


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                        • yearight
                          it sure is a good thing we dont judge a country by some of the comments its residents make..instead of criticizing..why dont we support our people that are
                          Message 12 of 24 , Apr 2, 2003
                          • 0 Attachment

                            it sure is a good thing we dont judge a country by some of the comments its residents
                            make..instead of criticizing..why dont we support our people that are putting their lives on the line for what they believe in..it sure would make them feel alot better than hearing people whine about right or wrong...i support all the troops and am very proud of them.If you want to be a tree hugger then thats fine...but support your troops with all your heart..their fighting for your freedoms also.Be proud of your country for having the guts to do whats right.Be ashamed
                            for not supporting it,remember a country is made of millions,not just one,You may not agree with the head,but support the heart.

                             Karen B <lilpos@...> wrote:

                            I wonder if anyone has considered a historical fact.
                            Every empire falls eventually. Capitalism and
                            democracy will fall and crumble eventually as have
                            most systems before it. It seems to be happening now.
                            The UN, called lame and ineffective by those that
                            disagree with it, decided in a democratic fashion (if
                            my understanding is correct) not to go to war with
                            Iraq at this time. The majority did not vote for a war
                            at this time. Some nations (in the minority) did not
                            agree but, because they had the fire power decided
                            against democracy. Does anyone else see this as an
                            ironic fact?

                            ^kira

                            --- iizthatiiz <iizthatiiz@...> wrote:
                            > More on WWI:  In 1914, as war erupted in Europe,
                            > Woodrow Wilson made
                            > an official proclaimation of American neutrality.
                            > None of the
                            > nations involved was our enemy.  To be blunt, we did
                            > not much
                            > understand, or admire your world of Archdukes, Kings
                            > and Kaisers.  In
                            > fact, just 140 years prior, we fought a war to rid
                            > ourselves of
                            > them.  After the American Revolution, the people
                            > wanted to make
                            > George Washington a king.  But he said no.  We had
                            > just fought a war
                            > to free ourselves of that out-moded system of
                            > government.  Wiser
                            > minds prevailed.  You might say that democracy was
                            > 'imposed' upon
                            > America by a very, very small group of people we
                            > call "Our Founding
                            > Fathers".
                            >
                            > In 1914, the United States did not have great fleets
                            > of iron
                            > warships.  New technologies and methods of war were
                            > upon the world. 
                            > Artillery instead of cannon.  Gases and chemicals.
                            > Trench warfare. 
                            > Things we knew little of.  An ocean divided the
                            > continents, connected
                            > only by dits and dashes of morse code.  Secure
                            > communications between
                            > the continents took weeks to deliver by hand.
                            > Conversations took
                            > months.  In 1914 the United States was hardly a
                            > super-power.  We were
                            > a growing nation without the wealth of Europe.  It
                            > was a war we had
                            > no interest in, nor enemies.
                            >
                            > As the European war raged on, Germany did not much
                            > like our policies
                            > of free trade with their enemies, and ships were
                            > sunk.  Still -
                            > neutrality.  Diplomatic absurdities developed.
                            > German warships would
                            > patiently for crews and passengers to unload before
                            > the ships were
                            > sunk.  But as you stated, eventually the Germans
                            > lost all restraint,
                            > and began killing without mercy, or warning.  In
                            > 1917, Woodrow Wilson
                            > delivered a "message of war" to Congress.  Days
                            > later, Congress
                            > declared war.  We did not enter World War I to fight
                            > for your kings. 
                            > We entered World War I for our right to trade
                            > freely.
                            >
                            > More on WWII:  After the 'Great War', the victorious
                            > powers of Europe
                            > enacted a terrible economic vengence upon Germany.
                            > A policy that led
                            > to hatred and fascism.  The Europeans did not have
                            > the foresight of a
                            > man like Abraham Lincoln.  It was Lincoln's
                            > intention after the
                            > American Civil War to be very generous with the
                            > South, full amnesty,
                            > reconstruction, in order to form a "more perfect
                            > union".  In 1865 Lee
                            > surrendered to Grant, but Lincoln was assassinated
                            > days later.  His
                            > successor, Andrew Johnson had different ideas.  He
                            > intended to rule
                            > the South more firmly than Lincoln had intended.  It
                            > took a
                            > congressional override of a presidental veto to pass
                            > the first
                            > reconstruction act in 1867.  By 1868, Grant was
                            > president.  By 1870,
                            > all of the southern states had been readmitted to
                            > the Union of the
                            > United States of America.  Reconstruction wasn't
                            > done well, and it
                            > wasn't done perfectly, but it was done.  And it
                            > saved this country.
                            >
                            > In 1939, the United States was into its second
                            > decade of the great
                            > depression.  Americans again, had little interest in
                            > a European war. 
                            > We had fought the Great War, to preserve our trade
                            > rights.  It seemed
                            > for nothing.  The Europeans were at it again.
                            > Wilson's League of
                            > Nations had failed.  War spread through Europe.  Not
                            > only were the
                            > American people opposed to involvement, the United
                            > States didn't have
                            > the capacity for another war.  In 1939, the U.S. had
                            > essentially the
                            > same navy it ended World War I with.  No shiny new
                            > fleets.  No modern
                            > tanks.  No squadrons of aircraft.  All the United
                            > States had was a
                            > man named Franklin Roosevelt.  A man who saw the
                            > dangers of fascism
                            > and imperialism.  Roosevelt and Churchill developed
                            > a plan to prepare
                            > the United States for war.  It was called
                            > Lend-Lease.  The United
                            > States would arm itself by selling arms to England
                            > and her allies, on
                            > credit.  An economic engine went to work, pulling
                            > the United States
                            > out of its depression.  Ships were built.  Tanks.
                            > Planes.  And they
                            > were sent to Europe, all on credit.
                            >
                            > By 1941, the economy of the United States was
                            > prepared for war.  It's
                            > people weren't.  Oh, Hitler was a bastard all right,
                            > but he wasn't
                            > our bastard.  One of more interesting 'conspiracy'
                            > theories of the
                            > 20th century revolves around Pearl Harbor.  Germany
                            > and Japan were
                            > allies.  In July of 1941 the United States
                            > threatened Japan with an
                            > oil embargo unless Japan withdrew from China.
                            > America knew that
                            > without oil, Japanese agression in the Pacific would
                            > falter.  The
                            > Japanese practically told America that an embargo
                            > would lead to war. 
                            > On December 7th of that same year, Pearl Harbor was
                            > attacked. 
                            > Americans don't like to be killed.  When 3000
                            > Americans died on
                            > September 11th, that lesson was lost on the
                            > Islamicists.
                            >
                            > The mood of the country changed overnight.
                            > Americans by the tens of
                            > thousands eagerly enlisted.  My own grandfather at
                            > the age of 15, ran
                            > away from home, lied about his age, and joined up.
                            > Roosevelt and
                            > Churchill had prevailed.  Lend-Lease had worked.  By
                            > the end of the
                            > war, the United States had given its allies over 49
                            > billion dollars
                            > in credits (in 1940's dollars).  And the war was
                            > won.  After the war,
                            > the Marshall Plan was instituted.  Over twelve
                            > billion dollars in aid
                            > was given to Europe.  Given.  And money well spent
                            > by us too.  The
                            > economy of Europe was rebuilt, democratic
                            > institutions were
                            > preserved, and the threat of Soviet expansion
                            > through a weakened
                            > Europe was prevented.  A lasting peace ensued.
                            > Western Europe hasn't
                            > had a war since.
                            >
                            > I mention things like Southern reconstruction, and
                            > the Marshall plan
                            > for a reason.  The United States doesn't only know
                            > how to wage war. 
                            > We know a thing or two about waging peace as well.
                            >
                            > One last thought if I may Jos.  I don't take the
                            > time to write this
                            > stuff because I'm against you.  It's because I'm
                            > with you.
                            >
                            > YankeeDog
                            >
                            >
                            > --- In know-it-all@yahoogroups.com, "Jos"
                            > <kramer@d...> wrote:
                            > > I think it's you. And I think you should stop
                            > blaming France for
                            > > using their veto right (yes, veto RIGHT). In fact
                            > they didn't even
                            > > use it, they just indicated that they probably
                            > would.
                            > >
                            > > By the way, nice limericks and poems. But if
                            > that's all you got to
                            > > prove you're right, then, well... let's say I'm
                            > not impressed. For
                            > > the record:
                            > >
                            > > WWII: France (and Great Britain, India, Australia,
                            > South Africa and
                            > > New Zealand) declared war on Germany in September
                            > 1939, immediately
                            > > after Hitler's Germany invaded Poland. The USA did
                            > not
                            === message truncated ===


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                          • Doktor Eisenbart
                            actually, it was a MINORITY that was against the war. ... _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8
                            Message 13 of 24 , Apr 2, 2003
                            • 0 Attachment
                              actually, it was a MINORITY that was against the war.






                              >From: Karen B <lilpos@...>
                              >Reply-To: know-it-all@yahoogroups.com
                              >To: know-it-all@yahoogroups.com
                              >Subject: Re: [#knowitall] Re: The mouse that snored
                              >Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 09:29:38 -0800 (PST)
                              >
                              >I wonder if anyone has considered a historical fact.
                              >Every empire falls eventually. Capitalism and
                              >democracy will fall and crumble eventually as have
                              >most systems before it. It seems to be happening now.
                              >The UN, called lame and ineffective by those that
                              >disagree with it, decided in a democratic fashion (if
                              >my understanding is correct) not to go to war with
                              >Iraq at this time. The majority did not vote for a war
                              >at this time. Some nations (in the minority) did not
                              >agree but, because they had the fire power decided
                              >against democracy. Does anyone else see this as an
                              >ironic fact?
                              >
                              >^kira
                              >
                              >--- iizthatiiz <iizthatiiz@...> wrote:
                              > > More on WWI: In 1914, as war erupted in Europe,
                              > > Woodrow Wilson made
                              > > an official proclaimation of American neutrality.
                              > > None of the
                              > > nations involved was our enemy. To be blunt, we did
                              > > not much
                              > > understand, or admire your world of Archdukes, Kings
                              > > and Kaisers. In
                              > > fact, just 140 years prior, we fought a war to rid
                              > > ourselves of
                              > > them. After the American Revolution, the people
                              > > wanted to make
                              > > George Washington a king. But he said no. We had
                              > > just fought a war
                              > > to free ourselves of that out-moded system of
                              > > government. Wiser
                              > > minds prevailed. You might say that democracy was
                              > > 'imposed' upon
                              > > America by a very, very small group of people we
                              > > call "Our Founding
                              > > Fathers".
                              > >
                              > > In 1914, the United States did not have great fleets
                              > > of iron
                              > > warships. New technologies and methods of war were
                              > > upon the world.
                              > > Artillery instead of cannon. Gases and chemicals.
                              > > Trench warfare.
                              > > Things we knew little of. An ocean divided the
                              > > continents, connected
                              > > only by dits and dashes of morse code. Secure
                              > > communications between
                              > > the continents took weeks to deliver by hand.
                              > > Conversations took
                              > > months. In 1914 the United States was hardly a
                              > > super-power. We were
                              > > a growing nation without the wealth of Europe. It
                              > > was a war we had
                              > > no interest in, nor enemies.
                              > >
                              > > As the European war raged on, Germany did not much
                              > > like our policies
                              > > of free trade with their enemies, and ships were
                              > > sunk. Still -
                              > > neutrality. Diplomatic absurdities developed.
                              > > German warships would
                              > > patiently for crews and passengers to unload before
                              > > the ships were
                              > > sunk. But as you stated, eventually the Germans
                              > > lost all restraint,
                              > > and began killing without mercy, or warning. In
                              > > 1917, Woodrow Wilson
                              > > delivered a "message of war" to Congress. Days
                              > > later, Congress
                              > > declared war. We did not enter World War I to fight
                              > > for your kings.
                              > > We entered World War I for our right to trade
                              > > freely.
                              > >
                              > > More on WWII: After the 'Great War', the victorious
                              > > powers of Europe
                              > > enacted a terrible economic vengence upon Germany.
                              > > A policy that led
                              > > to hatred and fascism. The Europeans did not have
                              > > the foresight of a
                              > > man like Abraham Lincoln. It was Lincoln's
                              > > intention after the
                              > > American Civil War to be very generous with the
                              > > South, full amnesty,
                              > > reconstruction, in order to form a "more perfect
                              > > union". In 1865 Lee
                              > > surrendered to Grant, but Lincoln was assassinated
                              > > days later. His
                              > > successor, Andrew Johnson had different ideas. He
                              > > intended to rule
                              > > the South more firmly than Lincoln had intended. It
                              > > took a
                              > > congressional override of a presidental veto to pass
                              > > the first
                              > > reconstruction act in 1867. By 1868, Grant was
                              > > president. By 1870,
                              > > all of the southern states had been readmitted to
                              > > the Union of the
                              > > United States of America. Reconstruction wasn't
                              > > done well, and it
                              > > wasn't done perfectly, but it was done. And it
                              > > saved this country.
                              > >
                              > > In 1939, the United States was into its second
                              > > decade of the great
                              > > depression. Americans again, had little interest in
                              > > a European war.
                              > > We had fought the Great War, to preserve our trade
                              > > rights. It seemed
                              > > for nothing. The Europeans were at it again.
                              > > Wilson's League of
                              > > Nations had failed. War spread through Europe. Not
                              > > only were the
                              > > American people opposed to involvement, the United
                              > > States didn't have
                              > > the capacity for another war. In 1939, the U.S. had
                              > > essentially the
                              > > same navy it ended World War I with. No shiny new
                              > > fleets. No modern
                              > > tanks. No squadrons of aircraft. All the United
                              > > States had was a
                              > > man named Franklin Roosevelt. A man who saw the
                              > > dangers of fascism
                              > > and imperialism. Roosevelt and Churchill developed
                              > > a plan to prepare
                              > > the United States for war. It was called
                              > > Lend-Lease. The United
                              > > States would arm itself by selling arms to England
                              > > and her allies, on
                              > > credit. An economic engine went to work, pulling
                              > > the United States
                              > > out of its depression. Ships were built. Tanks.
                              > > Planes. And they
                              > > were sent to Europe, all on credit.
                              > >
                              > > By 1941, the economy of the United States was
                              > > prepared for war. It's
                              > > people weren't. Oh, Hitler was a bastard all right,
                              > > but he wasn't
                              > > our bastard. One of more interesting 'conspiracy'
                              > > theories of the
                              > > 20th century revolves around Pearl Harbor. Germany
                              > > and Japan were
                              > > allies. In July of 1941 the United States
                              > > threatened Japan with an
                              > > oil embargo unless Japan withdrew from China.
                              > > America knew that
                              > > without oil, Japanese agression in the Pacific would
                              > > falter. The
                              > > Japanese practically told America that an embargo
                              > > would lead to war.
                              > > On December 7th of that same year, Pearl Harbor was
                              > > attacked.
                              > > Americans don't like to be killed. When 3000
                              > > Americans died on
                              > > September 11th, that lesson was lost on the
                              > > Islamicists.
                              > >
                              > > The mood of the country changed overnight.
                              > > Americans by the tens of
                              > > thousands eagerly enlisted. My own grandfather at
                              > > the age of 15, ran
                              > > away from home, lied about his age, and joined up.
                              > > Roosevelt and
                              > > Churchill had prevailed. Lend-Lease had worked. By
                              > > the end of the
                              > > war, the United States had given its allies over 49
                              > > billion dollars
                              > > in credits (in 1940's dollars). And the war was
                              > > won. After the war,
                              > > the Marshall Plan was instituted. Over twelve
                              > > billion dollars in aid
                              > > was given to Europe. Given. And money well spent
                              > > by us too. The
                              > > economy of Europe was rebuilt, democratic
                              > > institutions were
                              > > preserved, and the threat of Soviet expansion
                              > > through a weakened
                              > > Europe was prevented. A lasting peace ensued.
                              > > Western Europe hasn't
                              > > had a war since.
                              > >
                              > > I mention things like Southern reconstruction, and
                              > > the Marshall plan
                              > > for a reason. The United States doesn't only know
                              > > how to wage war.
                              > > We know a thing or two about waging peace as well.
                              > >
                              > > One last thought if I may Jos. I don't take the
                              > > time to write this
                              > > stuff because I'm against you. It's because I'm
                              > > with you.
                              > >
                              > > YankeeDog
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > --- In know-it-all@yahoogroups.com, "Jos"
                              > > <kramer@d...> wrote:
                              > > > I think it's you. And I think you should stop
                              > > blaming France for
                              > > > using their veto right (yes, veto RIGHT). In fact
                              > > they didn't even
                              > > > use it, they just indicated that they probably
                              > > would.
                              > > >
                              > > > By the way, nice limericks and poems. But if
                              > > that's all you got to
                              > > > prove you're right, then, well... let's say I'm
                              > > not impressed. For
                              > > > the record:
                              > > >
                              > > > WWII: France (and Great Britain, India, Australia,
                              > > South Africa and
                              > > > New Zealand) declared war on Germany in September
                              > > 1939, immediately
                              > > > after Hitler's Germany invaded Poland. The USA did
                              > > not
                              >=== message truncated ===
                              >
                              >
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                            • Karen B
                              Are you responding to me? Did I say I am ashamed of my country? I m not keen on my government, this is my right. I love my country and think it s the only
                              Message 14 of 24 , Apr 2, 2003
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                                Are you responding to me? Did I say I am ashamed of my
                                country? I'm not keen on my government, this is my
                                right. I love my country and think it's the only place
                                in the world to live. I have never said I don't care
                                about our troops. I wish they weren't there. That is
                                also my right.

                                ^kira

                                --- yearight <yearight6913@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > it sure is a good thing we dont judge a country by
                                > some of the comments its residents
                                > make..instead of criticizing..why dont we support
                                > our people that are putting their lives on the line
                                > for what they believe in..it sure would make them
                                > feel alot better than hearing people whine about
                                > right or wrong...i support all the troops and am
                                > very proud of them.If you want to be a tree hugger
                                > then thats fine...but support your troops with all
                                > your heart..their fighting for your freedoms also.Be
                                > proud of your country for having the guts to do
                                > whats right.Be ashamed
                                > for not supporting it,remember a country is made of
                                > millions,not just one,You may not agree with the
                                > head,but support the heart.
                                > Karen B <lilpos@...> wrote:I wonder if
                                > anyone has considered a historical fact.
                                > Every empire falls eventually. Capitalism and
                                > democracy will fall and crumble eventually as have
                                > most systems before it. It seems to be happening
                                > now.
                                > The UN, called lame and ineffective by those that
                                > disagree with it, decided in a democratic fashion
                                > (if
                                > my understanding is correct) not to go to war with
                                > Iraq at this time. The majority did not vote for a
                                > war
                                > at this time. Some nations (in the minority) did not
                                > agree but, because they had the fire power decided
                                > against democracy. Does anyone else see this as an
                                > ironic fact?
                                >
                                > ^kira
                                >
                                > --- iizthatiiz <iizthatiiz@...> wrote:
                                > > More on WWI: In 1914, as war erupted in Europe,
                                > > Woodrow Wilson made
                                > > an official proclaimation of American neutrality.
                                > > None of the
                                > > nations involved was our enemy. To be blunt, we
                                > did
                                > > not much
                                > > understand, or admire your world of Archdukes,
                                > Kings
                                > > and Kaisers. In
                                > > fact, just 140 years prior, we fought a war to rid
                                > > ourselves of
                                > > them. After the American Revolution, the people
                                > > wanted to make
                                > > George Washington a king. But he said no. We had
                                > > just fought a war
                                > > to free ourselves of that out-moded system of
                                > > government. Wiser
                                > > minds prevailed. You might say that democracy was
                                > > 'imposed' upon
                                > > America by a very, very small group of people we
                                > > call "Our Founding
                                > > Fathers".
                                > >
                                > > In 1914, the United States did not have great
                                > fleets
                                > > of iron
                                > > warships. New technologies and methods of war
                                > were
                                > > upon the world.
                                > > Artillery instead of cannon. Gases and chemicals.
                                >
                                > > Trench warfare.
                                > > Things we knew little of. An ocean divided the
                                > > continents, connected
                                > > only by dits and dashes of morse code. Secure
                                > > communications between
                                > > the continents took weeks to deliver by hand.
                                > > Conversations took
                                > > months. In 1914 the United States was hardly a
                                > > super-power. We were
                                > > a growing nation without the wealth of Europe. It
                                > > was a war we had
                                > > no interest in, nor enemies.
                                > >
                                > > As the European war raged on, Germany did not much
                                > > like our policies
                                > > of free trade with their enemies, and ships were
                                > > sunk. Still -
                                > > neutrality. Diplomatic absurdities developed.
                                > > German warships would
                                > > patiently for crews and passengers to unload
                                > before
                                > > the ships were
                                > > sunk. But as you stated, eventually the Germans
                                > > lost all restraint,
                                > > and began killing without mercy, or warning. In
                                > > 1917, Woodrow Wilson
                                > > delivered a "message of war" to Congress. Days
                                > > later, Congress
                                > > declared war. We did not enter World War I to
                                > fight
                                > > for your kings.
                                > > We entered World War I for our right to trade
                                > > freely.
                                > >
                                > > More on WWII: After the 'Great War', the
                                > victorious
                                > > powers of Europe
                                > > enacted a terrible economic vengence upon Germany.
                                >
                                > > A policy that led
                                > > to hatred and fascism. The Europeans did not have
                                > > the foresight of a
                                > > man like Abraham Lincoln. It was Lincoln's
                                > > intention after the
                                > > American Civil War to be very generous with the
                                > > South, full amnesty,
                                > > reconstruction, in order to form a "more perfect
                                > > union". In 1865 Lee
                                > > surrendered to Grant, but Lincoln was assassinated
                                > > days later. His
                                > > successor, Andrew Johnson had different ideas. He
                                > > intended to rule
                                > > the South more firmly than Lincoln had intended.
                                > It
                                > > took a
                                > > congressional override of a presidental veto to
                                > pass
                                > > the first
                                > > reconstruction act in 1867. By 1868, Grant was
                                > > president. By 1870,
                                > > all of the southern states had been readmitted to
                                > > the Union of the
                                > > United States of America. Reconstruction wasn't
                                > > done well, and it
                                > > wasn't done perfectly, but it was done. And it
                                > > saved this country.
                                > >
                                > > In 1939, the United States was into its second
                                > > decade of the great
                                > > depression. Americans again, had little interest
                                > in
                                > > a European war.
                                > > We had fought the Great War, to preserve our trade
                                > > rights. It seemed
                                > > for nothing. The Europeans were at it again.
                                > > Wilson's League of
                                > > Nations had failed. War spread through Europe.
                                > Not
                                > > only were the
                                > > American people opposed to involvement, the United
                                > > States didn't have
                                > > the capacity for another war. In 1939, the U.S.
                                > had
                                > > essentially the
                                > > same navy it ended World War I with. No shiny new
                                > > fleets. No modern
                                > > tanks. No squadrons of aircraft. All the United
                                > > States had was a
                                > > man named Franklin Roosevelt. A man who saw the
                                > > dangers of fascism
                                > > and imperialism. Roosevelt and Churchill
                                > developed
                                > > a plan to prepare
                                > > the United States for war. It was called
                                > > Lend-Lease. The United
                                > > States would arm itself by selling arms to England
                                > > and her allies, on
                                > > credit. An economic engine went to work, pulling
                                > > the United States
                                > > out of its depression. Ships were built. Tanks.
                                > > Planes. And they
                                > > were sent to Europe, all on credit.
                                > >
                                > > By 1941, the economy of the United States was
                                > > prepared for war. It's
                                > > people weren't. Oh, Hitler was a bastard all
                                > right,
                                > > but he wasn't
                                > > our bastard. One of more interesting 'conspiracy'
                                > > theories of the
                                > > 20th century revolves around Pearl Harbor.
                                > Germany
                                > > and Japan were
                                > > allies. In July of 1941 the United States
                                > > threatened Japan with an
                                > > oil embargo unless Japan withdrew from China.
                                > > America knew that
                                > > without oil, Japanese agression in the Pacific
                                > would
                                > > falter. The
                                > > Japanese practically told America that an embargo
                                > > would lead to war.
                                > > On December 7th of that same year, Pearl Harbor
                                > was
                                > > attacked.
                                > > Americans don't like to be killed. When 3000
                                > > Americans died on
                                > > September 11th, that lesson was lost on the
                                > > Islamicists.
                                > >
                                > > The mood of the country changed overnight.
                                > > Americans by the tens of
                                > > thousands eagerly enlisted. My own grandfather at
                                >
                                === message truncated ===


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                              • iizthatiiz
                                I agree Kira ... I don t expect capitalism, and democracy in its current form to last forever. History is all about change. I had a social studies teacher in
                                Message 15 of 24 , Apr 3, 2003
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                                  I agree Kira ... I don't expect capitalism, and democracy in its
                                  current form to last forever. History is all about change. I had a
                                  social studies teacher in high school that said something I've never
                                  forgotten (though I can't remember anything else he said). It was
                                  something about how human history is a geometric progression.

                                  The thrust was, that ways of life change, at a faster, and faster
                                  pace. How the neolithic age of hunting and gathering groups of
                                  humans lasted for tens of thousands of years. Until agriculture was
                                  invented, and we humans banded into communities to protect our
                                  crops. How the agriculture age lasted longer than the bronze age.
                                  The iron age, industrial age, to our present information age.

                                  There are parallels in forms of government. How the age of
                                  empires, from the Egyptians, to Greeks and Romans changed into an age
                                  of kings. To our own age of nation-states of today. So no, I don't
                                  expect our own present form of government to last forever.

                                  I think it was Churchill who said something to the effect,
                                  that 'democracy was the worst form of government, except for all the
                                  other forms of government that we've tried'.

                                  I'd differ a bit with your description of the U.N. The U.N. is
                                  not a world government. I think its more of a forum. A place for
                                  nations to TRY and work out their differences peacefully. There have
                                  been many wars around the world since the U.N. was founded. I can't
                                  think of to many that the U.N. voted for.

                                  YD

                                  --- In know-it-all@yahoogroups.com, Karen B <lilpos@y...> wrote:
                                  > I wonder if anyone has considered a historical fact.
                                  > Every empire falls eventually. Capitalism and
                                  > democracy will fall and crumble eventually as have
                                  > most systems before it. It seems to be happening now.
                                  > The UN, called lame and ineffective by those that
                                  > disagree with it, decided in a democratic fashion (if
                                  > my understanding is correct) not to go to war with
                                  > Iraq at this time. The majority did not vote for a war
                                  > at this time. Some nations (in the minority) did not
                                  > agree but, because they had the fire power decided
                                  > against democracy. Does anyone else see this as an
                                  > ironic fact?
                                  >
                                  > ^kira
                                  >
                                • daisy
                                  yankee..sounds like you re trying to come up with a new microsoft ages of nations/states game :) lol bill gates is gonna steal that one from ya ya know you
                                  Message 16 of 24 , Apr 3, 2003
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                                    yankee..sounds like you're trying to come up with a new microsoft ages of
                                    nations/states game :)
                                    lol
                                    bill gates is gonna steal that one from ya ya know
                                    you better patent it fast :)

                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    From: "iizthatiiz" <iizthatiiz@...>
                                    To: <know-it-all@yahoogroups.com>
                                    Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2003 11:03 PM
                                    Subject: [#knowitall] Re: The mouse that snored


                                    I agree Kira ... I don't expect capitalism, and democracy in its
                                    current form to last forever. History is all about change. I had a
                                    social studies teacher in high school that said something I've never
                                    forgotten (though I can't remember anything else he said). It was
                                    something about how human history is a geometric progression.

                                    The thrust was, that ways of life change, at a faster, and faster
                                    pace. How the neolithic age of hunting and gathering groups of
                                    humans lasted for tens of thousands of years. Until agriculture was
                                    invented, and we humans banded into communities to protect our
                                    crops. How the agriculture age lasted longer than the bronze age.
                                    The iron age, industrial age, to our present information age.

                                    There are parallels in forms of government. How the age of
                                    empires, from the Egyptians, to Greeks and Romans changed into an age
                                    of kings. To our own age of nation-states of today. So no, I don't
                                    expect our own present form of government to last forever.

                                    I think it was Churchill who said something to the effect,
                                    that 'democracy was the worst form of government, except for all the
                                    other forms of government that we've tried'.

                                    I'd differ a bit with your description of the U.N. The U.N. is
                                    not a world government. I think its more of a forum. A place for
                                    nations to TRY and work out their differences peacefully. There have
                                    been many wars around the world since the U.N. was founded. I can't
                                    think of to many that the U.N. voted for.

                                    YD

                                    --- In know-it-all@yahoogroups.com, Karen B <lilpos@y...> wrote:
                                    > I wonder if anyone has considered a historical fact.
                                    > Every empire falls eventually. Capitalism and
                                    > democracy will fall and crumble eventually as have
                                    > most systems before it. It seems to be happening now.
                                    > The UN, called lame and ineffective by those that
                                    > disagree with it, decided in a democratic fashion (if
                                    > my understanding is correct) not to go to war with
                                    > Iraq at this time. The majority did not vote for a war
                                    > at this time. Some nations (in the minority) did not
                                    > agree but, because they had the fire power decided
                                    > against democracy. Does anyone else see this as an
                                    > ironic fact?
                                    >
                                    > ^kira
                                    >




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