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Expanding Turks Head Knots ( makes my head explode)

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  • Levan, Jerry
    Hi, I have been using Don Burrhus Turks Head Tool for building Turks Head Knots.... ( works fine). I have also been reading Ron Edward s Turks Head pamphlets
    Message 1 of 17 , Mar 13 8:15 AM
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      Hi,

      I have been using Don Burrhus' Turks Head Tool for building
      Turks Head Knots.... ( works fine).

      I have also been reading Ron Edward's Turks Head pamphlets
      where he talks about "splitting pairs" as a way to expand turks
      head knots and also peering at the turks head tutorial located
      at the Alaska Museum of Fancy Knots where a "mule" is used
      to expand the turks head...

      The Problem:

      I construct a 3 lead 5 bight turks head around a wood or
      cardboard mandrel.

      When I start either method of expansion "stuff" starts shifting
      around on the mandrel and madness soon ensues... ( this
      is true even for a simple 5lx4b turks head).

      Does anyone have any suggestions?

      It seems to me that the two above methods are
      basically the same...

      The Edwards' method simply says
      1) Consturct a parallel run from where
      the standing end enters the knot and
      "cross over" the strand doing the parallel
      run when a bight is reached ( so the running
      end is on the other side of the strand that is
      being paralleled .
      2) when the start is reached, take the running end
      and do the actual splitting....

      At AMFK I have difficulty using the 'mule', I don't see
      to be able to keep my pictures looking like the illustrations...

      It appears that most authors use a mysterious substance that
      keeps all of the pieces in the appropriate order as the knots
      are constructed and the mandrels are turned...

      Any suggestions on how to manage my problems would
      be greatly appreciated :)

      Jerry
    • AndrĂ©
      Hi, A 5x4 TH is a good one to practise with. It helps to tie the initianal knot not too tight around the mandrel so you have room left for the leads you re
      Message 2 of 17 , Mar 13 9:27 AM
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        Hi,

        A 5x4 TH is a good one to practise with. It helps to tie the
        initianal knot not too tight around the mandrel so you have room left
        for the leads you're adding. To keep things neat it's handy to pin
        down the bights .

        hope this helps

        André

        --- In knottyers@yahoogroups.com, "Levan, Jerry" <jerry.levan@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > Hi,
        >
        > I have been using Don Burrhus' Turks Head Tool for building
        > Turks Head Knots.... ( works fine).
        >
        > I have also been reading Ron Edward's Turks Head pamphlets
        > where he talks about "splitting pairs" as a way to expand turks
        > head knots and also peering at the turks head tutorial located
        > at the Alaska Museum of Fancy Knots where a "mule" is used
        > to expand the turks head...
        >
        > The Problem:
        >
        > I construct a 3 lead 5 bight turks head around a wood or
        > cardboard mandrel.
        >
        > When I start either method of expansion "stuff" starts shifting
        > around on the mandrel and madness soon ensues... ( this
        > is true even for a simple 5lx4b turks head).
        >
        > Does anyone have any suggestions?
        >
        > It seems to me that the two above methods are
        > basically the same...
        >
        > The Edwards' method simply says
        > 1) Consturct a parallel run from where
        > the standing end enters the knot and
        > "cross over" the strand doing the parallel
        > run when a bight is reached ( so the running
        > end is on the other side of the strand that is
        > being paralleled .
        > 2) when the start is reached, take the running end
        > and do the actual splitting....
        >
        > At AMFK I have difficulty using the 'mule', I don't see
        > to be able to keep my pictures looking like the illustrations...
        >
        > It appears that most authors use a mysterious substance that
        > keeps all of the pieces in the appropriate order as the knots
        > are constructed and the mandrels are turned...
        >
        > Any suggestions on how to manage my problems would
        > be greatly appreciated :)
        >
        > Jerry
        >
      • Beth Hilborn
        Jerry Not to make light of your problems, but, if you take pictures and write tutorials, knots will behave. *grin* Seriously - when I tie, I use the pin
        Message 3 of 17 , Mar 13 10:35 AM
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          Jerry
          Not to make light of your problems, but, if you take pictures and write
          tutorials, knots will behave. *grin*
          Seriously - when I tie, I use the pin method and tend to tie tighter than I
          probably should to start with, as it helps keep things where they belong.
          Having a rougher surface will help hold things in place - I originally tied
          on mandrels made of concrete insulation foam (round stuff that looks like
          the inside of a curler). I've even gone to the extreme of using masking
          tape - sticky side out - to help keep things where I want them.

          Good luck - one day it will all hit like a bolt of lightening, and you will
          wonder why you had any issues to start with!
          ***
          Beth Hilborn
          http://www.kangaroolead.com
          http://www.bethhilborn.ca


          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Levan, Jerry" <jerry.levan@...>
          <snip>
          >
          > At AMFK I have difficulty using the 'mule', I don't see
          > to be able to keep my pictures looking like the illustrations...
          >
          > It appears that most authors use a mysterious substance that
          > keeps all of the pieces in the appropriate order as the knots
          > are constructed and the mandrels are turned...
          >
          > Any suggestions on how to manage my problems would
          > be greatly appreciated :)
          >
          > Jerry




          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Andrew J
          My mandrel is a cardboard tube with a thick wall. It holds the pins w/o me having to stuff newspaper in to it. I have also wrapped it in medical white adhesive
          Message 4 of 17 , Mar 13 11:00 AM
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            My mandrel is a cardboard tube with a thick wall. It holds the pins w/o me having to stuff newspaper in to it. I have also wrapped it in medical white adhesive tape to provide friction. If I need to change the # of pins for a project, I just slap on a new strip of tape in that area.
            It sounds like your is a slippery one. Can you add tape or tape a piece of construction paper to it to provide a bit more friction? Also, are you using a needle to do your work with? It really makes a huge difference for me in that I disturb the existing work less and work much faster with a needle.
            Good luck!
            Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

            -----Original Message-----
            From: Beth Hilborn <poodle@...>

            Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2008 10:35:12
            To:knottyers@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [KnotTyers] Expanding Turks Head Knots ( makes my head explode)


            Jerry
            Not to make light of your problems, but, if you take pictures and write
            tutorials, knots will behave. *grin*
            Seriously - when I tie, I use the pin method and tend to tie tighter than I
            probably should to start with, as it helps keep things where they belong.
            Having a rougher surface will help hold things in place - I originally tied
            on mandrels made of concrete insulation foam (round stuff that looks like
            the inside of a curler). I've even gone to the extreme of using masking
            tape - sticky side out - to help keep things where I want them.

            Good luck - one day it will all hit like a bolt of lightening, and you will
            wonder why you had any issues to start with!
            ***
            Beth Hilborn
            http://www.kangaroo <http://www.kangaroolead.com> lead.com
            http://www.bethhilb <http://www.bethhilborn.ca> orn.ca

            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "Levan, Jerry" <jerry.levan@ <mailto:jerry.levan%40eku.edu> eku.edu>
            <snip>
            >
            > At AMFK I have difficulty using the 'mule', I don't see
            > to be able to keep my pictures looking like the illustrations...
            >
            > It appears that most authors use a mysterious substance that
            > keeps all of the pieces in the appropriate order as the knots
            > are constructed and the mandrels are turned...
            >
            > Any suggestions on how to manage my problems would
            > be greatly appreciated :)
            >
            > Jerry


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Levan, Jerry
            Hi Dan, Beth and Andrew... I just got back from Wal-Mart where I purchased a couple of styrofoam disks and a bunch of quilting pins... This evening or
            Message 5 of 17 , Mar 13 11:46 AM
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              Hi Dan, Beth and Andrew...

              I just got back from Wal-Mart where I purchased a couple of
              styrofoam disks and a bunch of quilting pins...

              This evening or tomorrow I am going to try some slow
              motion expansion of the basic 3lx5b knot and see if I
              can better internalize what is going on during the expansion
              process.

              Hopefully pinning the bights will help make the steps
              a bit more clear :)

              Right now my focus is building bracelets. Luckily the first
              5x14 that I built barely made it past my hand and onto my
              wrist. ( It turned out that the osteo-biflex bottle I used on
              the last pass was just the right diameter.)

              Are there any "rules of thumb" for deciding the diameter that
              the bracelet should have for a given hand measurement?

              Thanks

              Jerry
            • Sidney Wood
              Message 6 of 17 , Mar 13 12:29 PM
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                Levan, Jerry wrote:

                > Hi,
                >
                > I have been using Don Burrhus' Turks Head Tool for building
                > Turks Head Knots.... ( works fine).
                >
                > The basic problem is that in expanding a knot on a mandrel or tool you
                > lose the advantage of properly spaced pins for the bight increment of
                > the larger knot. It is easier to just do the larger knot to start
                > with. I reserve the parrallel pair and splitting them for two pass
                > interweaves. the trick here is to leave space between pins on the
                > foundation knot so there is sspace for the interweave. See
                > taylortel.net/~stwood for a complete discussion. Sidney Wood
                >




                >
                >
              • Levan, Jerry
                Hi Sidney, ... It turns out that I found your site several days ago and have the site bookmarked :) Do you mind if people download the site? I would like to
                Message 7 of 17 , Mar 13 12:50 PM
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                  Hi Sidney,

                  > The basic problem is that in expanding a knot on a mandrel or tool you
                  > lose the advantage of properly spaced pins for the bight increment of
                  > the larger knot. It is easier to just do the larger knot to start
                  > with. I reserve the parrallel pair and splitting them for two pass
                  > interweaves. the trick here is to leave space between pins on the
                  > foundation knot so there is sspace for the interweave. See
                  > taylortel.net/~stwood for a complete discussion. Sidney Wood
                  >

                  It turns out that I found your site several days ago and have the
                  site bookmarked :)

                  Do you mind if people download the site?

                  I would like to keep a copy on my E Book reader...
                  You have wealth of interesting information :)

                  Jerry
                • Sidney Wood
                  Message 8 of 17 , Mar 13 1:25 PM
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                    Levan, Jerry wrote:

                    > Hi Sidney,
                    >
                    > You are most welcome to archive it any way you want. The only reason I
                    > haven't posted it as a big PDF is my ISP's free site has a restriction
                    > on file sizes.
                    >

                    > >Sidney Wood
                    >
                    > It turns out that I found your site several days ago and have the
                    > site bookmarked :)
                    >
                    > Do you mind if people download the site?
                    >
                    > I would like to keep a copy on my E Book reader...
                    > You have wealth of interesting information :)
                    >
                    > Jerry
                    >
                    >
                  • Beth Hilborn
                    Just an FYI for those that have the same problem as Sydney (space limits on free servers). In one of my other lives I do web design, and not being
                    Message 9 of 17 , Mar 13 1:50 PM
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                      Just an FYI for those that have the same problem as Sydney (space limits on
                      free servers). In one of my other lives I do web design, and not being
                      independently wealthy, have made it a priority to find inexpensive,
                      efficient hosting. I use a company called e-rice.net - which, for the huge
                      sum of $5.00 PER YEAR, you get 50 MB of space, with 5 GB per month of
                      transfer - which translates to a ton of room and downloads!
                      Add that to a domain registration of less than $15.00 with Go-daddy - and
                      you have an easy to remember site - such as sidneywood.com.

                      Just my .02 in this conversation.

                      ***
                      Beth Hilborn
                      http://www.kangaroolead.com
                      http://www.bethhilborn.ca


                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: "Sidney Wood" <stwood@...>
                      To: <knottyers@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2008 1:25 PM
                      Subject: Re: [KnotTyers] Expanding Turks Head Knots ( makes my head explode)


                      <snip>
                      >> You are most welcome to archive it any way you want. The only reason I
                      >> haven't posted it as a big PDF is my ISP's free site has a restriction
                      >> on file sizes.
                      <more snip>



                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Vince Brennan
                      For ANYONE who has done a tutorial or a pictorial on doing a type of knotting but who either is using a free server (limited downloads) or has no concept of
                      Message 10 of 17 , Mar 13 5:11 PM
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                        For ANYONE who has done a tutorial or a pictorial on doing a type of
                        knotting but who either is using a "free server" (limited downloads)
                        or has no concept of how to put something on the web, let me offer my
                        services for free.

                        I have a large site and can accommodate any size and any number of
                        tutorials.

                        Check out the tutorials pages at
                        http://www.frayedknotarts.com/tutor1.html and if interested in having
                        your tutorial/instructional hosted there, contact me at artisan (at)
                        frayedknotarts (dot) com. We already have several great tutorials by
                        Bud Brewer, Tod Bradshaw, Ed Hatherly, Jack Cross and Don Wright....
                        there's ALWAYS room for "Jello"!

                        If you have a site that you'd like liked, let me know that, too and
                        I'll put it up on the http://www.frayedknotarts.com/tutother.html page

                        Vince
                        (Wooden Boat Show in Mystic CT this JUNE! BE THERE!)




                        --- In knottyers@yahoogroups.com, Beth Hilborn <poodle@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Just an FYI for those that have the same problem as Sydney (space
                        limits on
                        > free servers). In one of my other lives I do web design, and not being
                        > independently wealthy, have made it a priority to find inexpensive,
                        > efficient hosting. I use a company called e-rice.net - which, for
                        the huge
                        > sum of $5.00 PER YEAR, you get 50 MB of space, with 5 GB per month of
                        > transfer - which translates to a ton of room and downloads!
                        > Add that to a domain registration of less than $15.00 with Go-daddy
                        - and
                        > you have an easy to remember site - such as sidneywood.com.
                        >
                        > Just my .02 in this conversation.
                        >
                        > ***
                        > Beth Hilborn
                        > http://www.kangaroolead.com
                        > http://www.bethhilborn.ca
                        >
                        >
                        > ----- Original Message -----
                        > From: "Sidney Wood" <stwood@...>
                        > To: <knottyers@yahoogroups.com>
                        > Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2008 1:25 PM
                        > Subject: Re: [KnotTyers] Expanding Turks Head Knots ( makes my head
                        explode)
                        >
                        >
                        > <snip>
                        > >> You are most welcome to archive it any way you want. The only
                        reason I
                        > >> haven't posted it as a big PDF is my ISP's free site has a
                        restriction
                        > >> on file sizes.
                        > <more snip>
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                      • Vince Brennan
                        Just a suggestion in addition to my last post: I find that when using Dan s excellent tutorial on e x p a n d i n g a nantucket , you WILL hit a point at
                        Message 11 of 17 , Mar 13 5:29 PM
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                          Just a suggestion in addition to my last post:

                          I find that when using Dan's excellent tutorial on "e x p a n d i n g"
                          a "nantucket", you WILL hit a point at which everything seems horribly
                          out of shape and not at all as it should look.... this is a natural
                          occurrence when using a fixed size mandrel and I solved it by going
                          with a 10" X 8" piece of nylon heavy mesh sold in crafts stores
                          (notably Michaels, but I'm sure all have this item) for doing
                          cross-stich embroidery work. The mesh is pretty stiff and will hod to
                          a tube fairly well if lashed, and I start with a large diameter and
                          allow the Nantucket to more-or-less reduce itself naturally,
                          collapsing the mesh into a smaller and smaller tube as this happens.
                          Once you've "Muled" and doubled up, treble the passes and then tighten
                          to the deaired diameter... the mesh tube will collapse to the desired
                          diameter and can be "tack sewn" to keep the dimension as you fair up
                          the bracelet/hatband/whatever.

                          Another question was how to size the bracelet to the wrist.

                          If it is NOT coming off, then make up the bracelet right on the
                          person's wrist and allow one full finger width under to allow for
                          shrinkage, half roll the work and seize-whip the ends. The only way
                          this one comes off is with a knife.

                          For removable bracelets, do it to the widest part of the hand and
                          allow a half-finger's width additional for shrinkage. It will take
                          some work to get it on and off over the widest part of the hand and it
                          will be loose on the wrist, but that's really the way it should be
                          worn so someone can hook their fingers under it when grabbing for
                          someone gone overboard, the original purpose of the bracelet.

                          I have one of George Haycraft's nantuckets out of tarred marline (wear
                          it every day) and it's become a part of my arm... I no longer notice
                          it and automatically adjust to not catch it on things. It is
                          interesting, however, to go into a store and have the salesclerk ask
                          if I've just been in a fire somewhere.
                        • Douglas Varney
                          To grasp the technique and method of expanding a Turk Head Knot by splitting the pairs us best done while tying the knot in hand. If you begin with a simple
                          Message 12 of 17 , Mar 14 2:14 PM
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                            To grasp the technique and method of expanding a Turk Head Knot by
                            splitting the pairs us best done while tying the knot in hand.

                            If you begin with a simple 3pX2b TH and do the splitting by initially
                            taking the working end (or "Mule") to the left of the standing part
                            as you begin to lay down the tracks. When you return back to the
                            start begin the splitting by intereweaving the next pass. This will
                            produce a 5pX4b TH . If you repeat the process again you will end
                            up with a 7pX6b TH. In this process each time you increase you
                            add "two parts" and "two bights" to the beginning Turk Head Kmot and
                            the process will be easy to see and get a feel for.

                            When you raise a 3pX5b TH by splitting the pairs you will end up
                            with a 5pX9b TH !!!! an increase of "two" in the "parts" but an
                            increase of "four" in the "bights". The problem is agrivated by
                            each additional AB cross-over or extra loop in the original
                            foundation knot. A 3pX8b TH will expand to a 5pX14b TH for an
                            increase of "six bights".
                            Doing this type of increasing using a pins and former is difficult
                            and you should probably have all the pins inserted for all the
                            bights you anticpate needing before you begin , but then why not just
                            plan to tie that topology from the start?

                            If you are just tying a TH around a mandrel without pins you should
                            have no problem using the splitting method to increase using the
                            method shown by Dan on his Alaska Museum of Fancy Knots web site.

                            I have additional iformation on expanding Turk Head Knots from basic
                            foundation topologies and information on using pins and formers on
                            my website if you have interest.

                            http://www.knotworkn.com/braid.html

                            Regards,
                            Douglas Varney aka knotworkn




                            --- In knottyers@yahoogroups.com, "Levan, Jerry" <jerry.levan@...>
                            wrote:
                            >
                            > Hi,
                            >
                            > I have been using Don Burrhus' Turks Head Tool for building
                            > Turks Head Knots.... ( works fine).
                            >
                            > I have also been reading Ron Edward's Turks Head pamphlets
                            > where he talks about "splitting pairs" as a way to expand turks
                            > head knots and also peering at the turks head tutorial located
                            > at the Alaska Museum of Fancy Knots where a "mule" is used
                            > to expand the turks head...
                            >
                            > The Problem:
                            >
                            > I construct a 3 lead 5 bight turks head around a wood or
                            > cardboard mandrel.
                            >
                            > When I start either method of expansion "stuff" starts shifting
                            > around on the mandrel and madness soon ensues... ( this
                            > is true even for a simple 5lx4b turks head).
                            >
                            > Does anyone have any suggestions?
                            >
                            > It seems to me that the two above methods are
                            > basically the same...
                            >
                            > The Edwards' method simply says
                            > 1) Consturct a parallel run from where
                            > the standing end enters the knot and
                            > "cross over" the strand doing the parallel
                            > run when a bight is reached ( so the running
                            > end is on the other side of the strand that is
                            > being paralleled .
                            > 2) when the start is reached, take the running end
                            > and do the actual splitting....
                            >
                            > At AMFK I have difficulty using the 'mule', I don't see
                            > to be able to keep my pictures looking like the illustrations...
                            >
                            > It appears that most authors use a mysterious substance that
                            > keeps all of the pieces in the appropriate order as the knots
                            > are constructed and the mandrels are turned...
                            >
                            > Any suggestions on how to manage my problems would
                            > be greatly appreciated :)
                            >
                            > Jerry
                            >
                          • Dan
                            hello knottyers... ...using the mule is really just Tom Hall s expansion process #1 .. (in his books Tom Hall does not use the mule but it s the same
                            Message 13 of 17 , Mar 14 3:05 PM
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                              hello knottyers...
                              ...using the "mule" is really just Tom Hall's "expansion process #1"..
                              (in his books Tom Hall does not use the "mule" but it's the same
                              process!)...i use the mule because it is that much easier for me to
                              expand smaller turk's heads into larger ones...using the "mule" you
                              can expand:
                              5x4 will expand to a 7x6
                              7x6 will expand to a 9x8
                              9x8 will expand to an 11x10 ...etc...
                              ..these are standard "square" turk's heads used as base knots for
                              heel knots and pineapple knots..etc...
                              ...but you also need to know Tom Hall's "expansion process #2"!!..
                              (you don't use the "mule" for "expansion process #2)
                              ...(for example if you try to expand a 7x4 using the "mule" you will
                              not be able to do it!...(a 9x6 th can't be made!)...so you have to
                              use Tom Hall's "expansion process #2" and that will turn the 7x4 into
                              an 11x6 turk's head...)
                              ...for me Tom Hall's methods are about the simplest ways i've found
                              to work with turk's heads!...(...Don B's knot-tools are pretty nice
                              too!!)
                              Dan-Alaska
                              ****************************************************************



                              --- In knottyers@yahoogroups.com, "Douglas Varney" <varney@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > To grasp the technique and method of expanding a Turk Head Knot by
                              > splitting the pairs us best done while tying the knot in hand.
                              >
                              > If you begin with a simple 3pX2b TH and do the splitting by
                              initially
                              > taking the working end (or "Mule") to the left of the standing part
                              > as you begin to lay down the tracks. When you return back to the
                              > start begin the splitting by intereweaving the next pass. This will
                              > produce a 5pX4b TH . If you repeat the process again you will end
                              > up with a 7pX6b TH. In this process each time you increase you
                              > add "two parts" and "two bights" to the beginning Turk Head Kmot
                              and
                              > the process will be easy to see and get a feel for.
                              >
                              > When you raise a 3pX5b TH by splitting the pairs you will end up
                              > with a 5pX9b TH !!!! an increase of "two" in the "parts" but an
                              > increase of "four" in the "bights". The problem is agrivated by
                              > each additional AB cross-over or extra loop in the original
                              > foundation knot. A 3pX8b TH will expand to a 5pX14b TH for an
                              > increase of "six bights".
                              > Doing this type of increasing using a pins and former is
                              difficult
                              > and you should probably have all the pins inserted for all the
                              > bights you anticpate needing before you begin , but then why not
                              just
                              > plan to tie that topology from the start?
                              >
                              > If you are just tying a TH around a mandrel without pins you should
                              > have no problem using the splitting method to increase using the
                              > method shown by Dan on his Alaska Museum of Fancy Knots web site.
                              >
                              > I have additional iformation on expanding Turk Head Knots from
                              basic
                              > foundation topologies and information on using pins and formers on
                              > my website if you have interest.
                              >
                              > http://www.knotworkn.com/braid.html
                              >
                              > Regards,
                              > Douglas Varney aka knotworkn
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > --- In knottyers@yahoogroups.com, "Levan, Jerry" <jerry.levan@>
                              > wrote:
                              > >
                              > > Hi,
                              > >
                              > > I have been using Don Burrhus' Turks Head Tool for building
                              > > Turks Head Knots.... ( works fine).
                              > >
                              > > I have also been reading Ron Edward's Turks Head pamphlets
                              > > where he talks about "splitting pairs" as a way to expand turks
                              > > head knots and also peering at the turks head tutorial located
                              > > at the Alaska Museum of Fancy Knots where a "mule" is used
                              > > to expand the turks head...
                              > >
                              > > The Problem:
                              > >
                              > > I construct a 3 lead 5 bight turks head around a wood or
                              > > cardboard mandrel.
                              > >
                              > > When I start either method of expansion "stuff" starts shifting
                              > > around on the mandrel and madness soon ensues... ( this
                              > > is true even for a simple 5lx4b turks head).
                              > >
                              > > Does anyone have any suggestions?
                              > >
                              > > It seems to me that the two above methods are
                              > > basically the same...
                              > >
                              > > The Edwards' method simply says
                              > > 1) Consturct a parallel run from where
                              > > the standing end enters the knot and
                              > > "cross over" the strand doing the parallel
                              > > run when a bight is reached ( so the running
                              > > end is on the other side of the strand that is
                              > > being paralleled .
                              > > 2) when the start is reached, take the running end
                              > > and do the actual splitting....
                              > >
                              > > At AMFK I have difficulty using the 'mule', I don't see
                              > > to be able to keep my pictures looking like the illustrations...
                              > >
                              > > It appears that most authors use a mysterious substance that
                              > > keeps all of the pieces in the appropriate order as the knots
                              > > are constructed and the mandrels are turned...
                              > >
                              > > Any suggestions on how to manage my problems would
                              > > be greatly appreciated :)
                              > >
                              > > Jerry
                              > >
                              >
                            • Levan, Jerry
                              Howdy, This weekend I tried two tasks: Starting from a 3lx8b turks head ( on a styrofoam mandrel). I expanded the knot to a 5lx14b knot by: 1) running the
                              Message 14 of 17 , Mar 16 3:56 PM
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                                Howdy,

                                This weekend I tried two tasks:

                                Starting from a 3lx8b turks head ( on a styrofoam mandrel).
                                I expanded the knot to a 5lx14b knot by:

                                1) running the working end in a parallel track completely around the knot
                                crossing the bight at the top/bottom of the original knot during the traversal and then "splitting"
                                the track with the working end. ie the working end would be on one side of the "tracked" thread
                                until the top or bottom of the knot was reached, "crossing" the bight would then move the
                                working end to the "other" side of the tracked thread.

                                This is how I interpreted Ron Edwards technique... This technique works but I found that
                                I had to use a lot of pins to hold the bights in position because when the working thread
                                thread on the parallel run crossed the top/bottom bight there was nothing to "hold" the
                                newly created bight.

                                2) Using the tutorial at the AMFN ( knot_tyers site) . This technique is like 1 except that
                                the parallel construction is done in sort of a two step operation. The parallel track is
                                built in multiple steps. Each step goes from one side of the knot to to other,
                                top to bottom, bottom to top, etc. After one step a "mule" thead is used to do the
                                split one step at a time.

                                It turns out that the "mule" *also* serves as a "pin" to prevent the accidental loss of the
                                bight created by the transition of the working end from one side of the tracked string to
                                the other side.

                                When the working end returns to the beginning of the knot, the mule is replaced by the
                                working end one run at a time.

                                Method one seems to require a large number of pins so it is not very flexible.


                                For reasons that are not perfectly clear to me...I seemed to have a great deal of
                                difficulty with Method 2....

                                I would lose track of which thead I was paralleling and would have trace from the
                                beginning of the knot... I also seemed to get easily confused when doing the
                                crossovers ie the tracking thead crossed the tracked thead at the top and bottom
                                bights..

                                Maybe more practice.... I was thinking that I might construct a model where
                                the mule, the strand making the parallel run, and the base knot are all
                                different colors. This might facilitate seeing how the new bights are constructed.

                                My only other observation is that Dan said to do the "A B" crossover only two
                                times, I have to do it three times.

                                Jerry
                              • Brian Kidd
                                I like the Tom Hall method the best. I adapted to it much quicker. I can make any size TH I need from the free run start. Brian. _____ From:
                                Message 15 of 17 , Mar 16 6:30 PM
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                                  I like the Tom Hall method the best. I adapted to it much quicker. I can
                                  make any size TH I need from the free run start.



                                  Brian.



                                  _____

                                  From: knottyers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:knottyers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                                  Of Levan, Jerry
                                  Sent: Sunday, March 16, 2008 3:56 PM
                                  To: knottyers@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: [KnotTyers] Re: Expanding Turks Head Knots ( makes my head explode)



                                  Howdy,

                                  This weekend I tried two tasks:

                                  Starting from a 3lx8b turks head ( on a styrofoam mandrel).
                                  I expanded the knot to a 5lx14b knot by:

                                  1) running the working end in a parallel track completely around the knot
                                  crossing the bight at the top/bottom of the original knot during the
                                  traversal and then "splitting"
                                  the track with the working end. ie the working end would be on one side of
                                  the "tracked" thread
                                  until the top or bottom of the knot was reached, "crossing" the bight would
                                  then move the
                                  working end to the "other" side of the tracked thread.

                                  This is how I interpreted Ron Edwards technique... This technique works but
                                  I found that
                                  I had to use a lot of pins to hold the bights in position because when the
                                  working thread
                                  thread on the parallel run crossed the top/bottom bight there was nothing to
                                  "hold" the
                                  newly created bight.

                                  2) Using the tutorial at the AMFN ( knot_tyers site) . This technique is
                                  like 1 except that
                                  the parallel construction is done in sort of a two step operation. The
                                  parallel track is
                                  built in multiple steps. Each step goes from one side of the knot to to
                                  other,
                                  top to bottom, bottom to top, etc. After one step a "mule" thead is used to
                                  do the
                                  split one step at a time.

                                  It turns out that the "mule" *also* serves as a "pin" to prevent the
                                  accidental loss of the
                                  bight created by the transition of the working end from one side of the
                                  tracked string to
                                  the other side.

                                  When the working end returns to the beginning of the knot, the mule is
                                  replaced by the
                                  working end one run at a time.

                                  Method one seems to require a large number of pins so it is not very
                                  flexible.

                                  For reasons that are not perfectly clear to me...I seemed to have a great
                                  deal of
                                  difficulty with Method 2....

                                  I would lose track of which thead I was paralleling and would have trace
                                  from the
                                  beginning of the knot... I also seemed to get easily confused when doing the
                                  crossovers ie the tracking thead crossed the tracked thead at the top and
                                  bottom
                                  bights..

                                  Maybe more practice.... I was thinking that I might construct a model where
                                  the mule, the strand making the parallel run, and the base knot are all
                                  different colors. This might facilitate seeing how the new bights are
                                  constructed.

                                  My only other observation is that Dan said to do the "A B" crossover only
                                  two
                                  times, I have to do it three times.

                                  Jerry





                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • gerald diamond
                                  Had a few days off and was trying my hand at some covering knots on some marbles I quickly discovered I either had too much cord or (k)not enough to give a
                                  Message 16 of 17 , Jul 27, 2011
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                                    Had a few days off and was trying my hand at some covering knots on some marbles
                                    I quickly discovered I either had too much cord or (k)not enough
                                    to give a pleasing effect - that is to evenly cover the various things I had with me

                                    Anybody know (other than just trial and error) how to get a fit between
                                    cord diameter, number of passes and core diameter ?

                                    tx
                                    Gerald


                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • Rev
                                    Gerald, Get Don Burruhs ( spelling probably wrong.) book on Globe Knots. He deals with all of that in great detail. He s a genius with line and computers.
                                    Message 17 of 17 , Jul 27, 2011
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                                      Gerald,
                                      Get Don Burruhs' ( spelling probably wrong.) book on Globe Knots. He deals with all of that in great detail. He's a genius with line and computers. You're shooting yourself in the foot if you don't buy it.

                                      You will Always have to play with cord diameter vs. core size but he gives enough examples and the actual math necessary to get it pretty close on the first try. Of course, NOTHING beats personal trial and error with lots of notes.

                                      Jerry



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