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Re: "Rescue" knots?

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  • Michael
    Re: Alpine Butterfly knot. The three loop method is illustrated in many basic knot books, such as Des Pawson s Knots and Splices . It is also shown as
    Message 1 of 30 , Dec 9, 2006
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      Re: Alpine Butterfly knot.

      The "three loop" method is illustrated in many basic knot books, such
      as Des Pawson's "Knots and Splices". It is also shown as method #2
      for tying the Alpine Butterfly at
      http://www.layhands.com/Knots/Knots_SingleLoops.htm
      (they show 4 methods for tying this knot!)

      It is essentially the same as what I think is being referred to as the
      "around the hand" method. It is easiest to make if you put the three
      round turns over something, like your hand, but that is not strictly
      neccesary. It cannot be tied in a rope under tension, but neither can
      a bowline nor any knot that requires a loose end (by definition).

      It's not really that hard to adjust the loop size, once you "get it"
      about which turn becomes the loop (the middle one). It is hard (for
      me) to make any fixed loop come out an exact size, unless you adjust
      it after it is placed around some object.

      Although it is clearly "intended" to be made in the middle of a rope,
      please tell me why you would not make it at the end of a rope, if you
      just want something quick and secure? It is certainly "ugly", since
      it sticks out the side. That probably makes it less "strong", since
      it is pulling the rope at an angle, but how often does this matter?
      (For rescue work, you should be using a rope that is plenty strong
      enough not to have to worry about the slight difference between knot
      strengths. Knot security is much more important).

      And sure, you also have an "ugly" tail sticking down, but long tails
      add security to knots. The "tail" of the bowline is generally inside
      the loop,fairly short, and therefore less visible, but a short,
      unsecured "tail" is partly responsible for the bowline's insecurity.

      Anyway, the Alpine Butterfly probably does not belong in a short list
      of rescue knots, except as a good way to hang a carabiner on a line. I
      like it because it is quick and secure, and easy to remember. Almost
      everybody teaches the bowline first among loops. I'm just not sure
      the bowline is that good, except if backed up. There have been
      several articles on this in "Knotting Matters", but as usual there is
      no real concensus. My opinion is that the bowline's reputation as
      "king of the fixed loop knots" is a historical artifact, not deserved.

      I would probably use a bowline if I were thrown a rope and had to use
      the "one handed" method to tie it. But, this is really hard to
      illustrate in a pamphlet - I presume you would be showing the "rabbit
      hole" method?

      By the way, in looking up this knot, I came across several websites
      with illustrated sections on "rescue knots". Might as well check
      those out.



      -- In knottyers@yahoogroups.com, Trevor Tutt <ttutt@...> wrote:
      >
      > On Fri, 08 Dec 2006 20:22:09 -0000, you wrote:
      >
      > > I also like the alpine buterfly,
      > >which is easy to remember if you teach the "three loops; back across
      > >middle; back over all and through the middle" method).
      >
      > I'd like to see that illustrated, because that doesn't sound anything
      > like the alpine butterfly that I know how to tie.
      > do you know where an illustration of that might be?
      >
      >
      > --
      >
      > "What is twisted cannot be straightened..."
      >
    • Albert Abril
      OK, that makes sense. Never heard it called that, thanks. ... From: John T Waidner To: knottyers@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, December 09, 2006 8:23 AM
      Message 2 of 30 , Dec 9, 2006
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        OK, that makes sense. Never heard it called that, thanks.

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: John T Waidner
        To: knottyers@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Saturday, December 09, 2006 8:23 AM
        Subject: Re: [KnotTyers] Re: "Rescue" knots?


        "Around the hand" refers to the method of tying the alpine butterfly,
        not how it's used.

        John Waidner

        Albert Abril wrote:
        >
        > The purpose of the butterfly is to hook into with a carabiner as part
        > of a safety line. At least in alpine use. The knot is also used in
        > securing items onto a line for other purposes. I'm not sure what you
        > mean by wrapping the line around one's hand, but that is not the
        > purpose of the butterfly.
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: Trevor Tutt
        > To: knottyers@yahoogroups.com <mailto:knottyers%40yahoogroups.com>
        > Sent: Friday, December 08, 2006 11:09 PM
        > Subject: Re: [KnotTyers] Re: "Rescue" knots?
        >
        > On Fri, 8 Dec 2006 16:24:37 -0700, you wrote:
        >
        > >The alpine butterfly is intended for a loop somewhere in the middle
        > of rope as opposed to a loop on the end of a rope.
        >
        > that's how I understood it, but it seems that if one is working in the
        > middle of a line, it would be most prudent to not wrap the line around
        > one's hand. depending on the actual situation of course.
        >
        > --
        >
        > "What is twisted cannot be straightened..."
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Trevor Tutt
        ... someone above described the process of making the knot as including wrapping the line around one s hand several times. ... -- What is twisted cannot be
        Message 3 of 30 , Dec 10, 2006
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          On Sat, 9 Dec 2006 06:37:31 -0700, you wrote:

          >The purpose of the butterfly is to hook into with a carabiner as part of a safety line. At least in alpine use. The knot is also used in securing items onto a line for other purposes. I'm not sure what you mean by wrapping the line around one's hand, but that is not the purpose of the butterfly.

          someone above described the process of making the knot as including
          wrapping the line around one's hand several times.



          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: Trevor Tutt
          > To: knottyers@yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: Friday, December 08, 2006 11:09 PM
          > Subject: Re: [KnotTyers] Re: "Rescue" knots?
          >
          >
          > On Fri, 8 Dec 2006 16:24:37 -0700, you wrote:
          >
          > >The alpine butterfly is intended for a loop somewhere in the middle of rope as opposed to a loop on the end of a rope.
          >
          > that's how I understood it, but it seems that if one is working in the
          > middle of a line, it would be most prudent to not wrap the line around
          > one's hand. depending on the actual situation of course.
          >
          > --
          >
          > "What is twisted cannot be straightened..."
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


          --

          "What is twisted cannot be straightened..."
        • John T Waidner
          Apparently the around the hand method for tying the alpine butterfly isn t as well known as I d thought. I find it the easiest to teach and much prefer that
          Message 4 of 30 , Dec 10, 2006
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            Apparently the "around the hand" method for tying the alpine butterfly
            isn't as well known as I'd thought. I find it the easiest to teach and
            much prefer that method myself. There are several "around the hand"
            methods. The following links show a few of them:

            1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpine_butterfly_knot
            2. http://www.layhands.com/Knots/Knots_SingleLoops.htm
            3.
            http://www.animatedknots.com/alpinebutterfly/index.php?LogoImage=&Website=

            Personally, I prefer method #3 and find it's easier to teach than the
            other methods.

            John Waidner


            Albert Abril wrote:
            >
            > OK, that makes sense. Never heard it called that, thanks.
            >
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: John T Waidner
            > To: knottyers@yahoogroups.com <mailto:knottyers%40yahoogroups.com>
            > Sent: Saturday, December 09, 2006 8:23 AM
            > Subject: Re: [KnotTyers] Re: "Rescue" knots?
            >
            > "Around the hand" refers to the method of tying the alpine butterfly,
            > not how it's used.
            >
            > John Waidner
            >
            > Albert Abril wrote:
            > >
            > > The purpose of the butterfly is to hook into with a carabiner as part
            > > of a safety line. At least in alpine use. The knot is also used in
            > > securing items onto a line for other purposes. I'm not sure what you
            > > mean by wrapping the line around one's hand, but that is not the
            > > purpose of the butterfly.
            > > ----- Original Message -----
            > > From: Trevor Tutt
            > > To: knottyers@yahoogroups.com <mailto:knottyers%40yahoogroups.com>
            > <mailto:knottyers%40yahoogroups.com>
            > > Sent: Friday, December 08, 2006 11:09 PM
            > > Subject: Re: [KnotTyers] Re: "Rescue" knots?
            > >
            > > On Fri, 8 Dec 2006 16:24:37 -0700, you wrote:
            > >
            > > >The alpine butterfly is intended for a loop somewhere in the middle
            > > of rope as opposed to a loop on the end of a rope.
            > >
            > > that's how I understood it, but it seems that if one is working in the
            > > middle of a line, it would be most prudent to not wrap the line around
            > > one's hand. depending on the actual situation of course.
            > >
            > > --
            > >
            > > "What is twisted cannot be straightened..."
            > >
            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > >
            > >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
          • Albert Abril
            Yes, they were all after I had asked what it meant. Thank you. ... From: Trevor Tutt To: knottyers@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, December 10, 2006 9:55 AM
            Message 5 of 30 , Dec 10, 2006
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              Yes, they were all after I had asked what it meant. Thank you.
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Trevor Tutt
              To: knottyers@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Sunday, December 10, 2006 9:55 AM
              Subject: Re: [KnotTyers] Re: "Rescue" knots?


              On Sat, 9 Dec 2006 06:37:31 -0700, you wrote:

              >The purpose of the butterfly is to hook into with a carabiner as part of a safety line. At least in alpine use. The knot is also used in securing items onto a line for other purposes. I'm not sure what you mean by wrapping the line around one's hand, but that is not the purpose of the butterfly.

              someone above described the process of making the knot as including
              wrapping the line around one's hand several times.

              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: Trevor Tutt
              > To: knottyers@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Friday, December 08, 2006 11:09 PM
              > Subject: Re: [KnotTyers] Re: "Rescue" knots?
              >
              >
              > On Fri, 8 Dec 2006 16:24:37 -0700, you wrote:
              >
              > >The alpine butterfly is intended for a loop somewhere in the middle of rope as opposed to a loop on the end of a rope.
              >
              > that's how I understood it, but it seems that if one is working in the
              > middle of a line, it would be most prudent to not wrap the line around
              > one's hand. depending on the actual situation of course.
              >
              > --
              >
              > "What is twisted cannot be straightened..."
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

              --

              "What is twisted cannot be straightened..."




              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • roo_two
              I ve never understood why they make such an easy loop to tie so difficult. The leapfrog stuff is completely unnecessary and just adds complexity. The
              Message 6 of 30 , Dec 11, 2006
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                I've never understood why they make such an easy loop to tie so
                difficult. The leapfrog stuff is completely unnecessary and just adds
                complexity. The Butterfly Loop (Lineman's Loop) can be described in
                one diagram:

                http://www.geocities.com/roo_two/butterflyloop.html

                Not only is it easier to remember, it'll fit better on your
                instruction cards.
              • Lindsey Philpott
                I would hazard a guess that one reason it is so easy to remember is because it is shown by a method that appears to you so hard to remember - and here I am
                Message 7 of 30 , Dec 11, 2006
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                  I would hazard a guess that one reason it is so "easy to remember" is because it is shown by a method that appears to you so hard to remember - and here I am thinking of the bring it over two and bring it over two again method, which happens to work for me - repetition of instruction - many humans work well with patterns rather than single actions. What makes the other methods so "difficult" for you apparently is that you think it is unnecessary to have to remember all those moves. Good for you that you have a method that makes it easy for you. Now how about the other 6 billion people in the world - how will they remember it? Your idea of putting a diagram as a link shows that it is really not that "easy to remember", because otherwise you could have described it in words? Easy to remember is a relative phrase and, if you are showing or teaching someone how to tie the knot (which is presumably what a competent trainer of emergency knots would do and appears to be the
                  purpose of the cards being put together) it is well to lose the word "easy" and substitute the phrase "here is one way that I have learned to tie it" making the choice of "easy" or "difficult" up to the person who is trying to recall what to do in an emergency situation with all he-doublehockeysticks breaking around. You have shown a great method of tying it - I agree that, for me and for you and possibly countless others, it is an "easy to remember" method of tying. Let's not forget that one person, who is trying to learn, by telling them "oh, this is easy" - how big a fool will they feel when they cannot understand the method you propose or they keep forgetting to pick the middle loop in your diagram and ... does it go over first or under and ... then what did they do with it? In an emergency, it is better to have a sufficient number of steps explained so that no mistakes are made.

                  Signed,
                  Been There, Done That, Got the T-shirt

                  roo_two <roo_two@...> wrote:
                  I've never understood why they make such an easy loop to tie so
                  difficult. The leapfrog stuff is completely unnecessary and just adds
                  complexity. The Butterfly Loop (Lineman's Loop) can be described in
                  one diagram:

                  http://www.geocities.com/roo_two/butterflyloop.html

                  Not only is it easier to remember, it'll fit better on your
                  instruction cards.






                  ---------------------------------
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                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • roo_two
                  How about this: I propose that the non-leapfrog method is easier to remember and easier to learn than the leapfrog method. Having said that, I am not so
                  Message 8 of 30 , Dec 11, 2006
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                    How about this: I propose that the non-leapfrog method is easier to
                    remember and easier to learn than the leapfrog method.

                    Having said that, I am not so interested in proving this assertion by
                    polling a hundred knot newbies on which method they had an easier
                    time learning and remembering.


                    --- In knottyers@yahoogroups.com, Lindsey Philpott
                    <pilgrimsailor@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > I would hazard a guess that one reason it is so "easy to remember"
                    is because it is shown by a method that appears to you so hard to
                    remember - and here I am thinking of the bring it over two and bring
                    it over two again method, which happens to work for me - repetition
                    of instruction - many humans work well with patterns rather than
                    single actions. What makes the other methods so "difficult" for you
                    apparently is that you think it is unnecessary to have to remember
                    all those moves. Good for you that you have a method that makes it
                    easy for you. Now how about the other 6 billion people in the world -
                    how will they remember it? Your idea of putting a diagram as a link
                    shows that it is really not that "easy to remember", because
                    otherwise you could have described it in words? Easy to remember is
                    a relative phrase and, if you are showing or teaching someone how to
                    tie the knot (which is presumably what a competent trainer of
                    emergency knots would do and appears to be the
                    > purpose of the cards being put together) it is well to lose the
                    word "easy" and substitute the phrase "here is one way that I have
                    learned to tie it" making the choice of "easy" or "difficult" up to
                    the person who is trying to recall what to do in an emergency
                    situation with all he-doublehockeysticks breaking around. You have
                    shown a great method of tying it - I agree that, for me and for you
                    and possibly countless others, it is an "easy to remember" method of
                    tying. Let's not forget that one person, who is trying to learn, by
                    telling them "oh, this is easy" - how big a fool will they feel when
                    they cannot understand the method you propose or they keep forgetting
                    to pick the middle loop in your diagram and ... does it go over first
                    or under and ... then what did they do with it? In an emergency, it
                    is better to have a sufficient number of steps explained so that no
                    mistakes are made.
                    >
                    > Signed,
                    > Been There, Done That, Got the T-shirt
                    >
                    > roo_two <roo_two@...> wrote:
                    > I've never understood why they make such an easy loop to
                    tie so
                    > difficult. The leapfrog stuff is completely unnecessary and just
                    adds
                    > complexity. The Butterfly Loop (Lineman's Loop) can be described in
                    > one diagram:
                    >
                    > http://www.geocities.com/roo_two/butterflyloop.html
                    >
                    > Not only is it easier to remember, it'll fit better on your
                    > instruction cards.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ---------------------------------
                    > Need a quick answer? Get one in minutes from people who know. Ask
                    your question on Yahoo! Answers.
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                  • roo_two
                    By the way, I was referring to the first diagrammed method, not the second one (with the embedded link). http://www.geocities.com/roo_two/butterflyloop.html
                    Message 9 of 30 , Dec 11, 2006
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                      By the way, I was referring to the first diagrammed method, not the
                      second one (with the embedded link).

                      http://www.geocities.com/roo_two/butterflyloop.html

                      It's vastly simpler than the leapfrog method.
                    • Lindsey Philpott
                      You must be right - thanks for the feedback roo_two wrote: By the way, I was referring to the first diagrammed method, not the
                      Message 10 of 30 , Dec 11, 2006
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                        You must be right - thanks for the feedback

                        roo_two <roo_two@...> wrote: By the way, I was referring to the first diagrammed method, not the
                        second one (with the embedded link).

                        http://www.geocities.com/roo_two/butterflyloop.html

                        It's vastly simpler than the leapfrog method.






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                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Kyle Shannon
                        I think Lindsay summed this thread up pretty well. Learn it how you want and tie it the way you are most comfortable with. ... -- Kyle Shannon
                        Message 11 of 30 , Dec 12, 2006
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                          I think Lindsay summed this thread up pretty well. Learn it how you want
                          and tie it the way you are most comfortable with.


                          On 12/11/06, roo_two <roo_two@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > By the way, I was referring to the first diagrammed method, not the
                          > second one (with the embedded link).
                          >
                          > http://www.geocities.com/roo_two/butterflyloop.html
                          >
                          > It's vastly simpler than the leapfrog method.
                          >
                          >
                          >



                          --
                          Kyle Shannon
                          ksshannon@...


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Michael
                          Whoa, Lindsay, chill, we re all knot-tyers here! Of course you are right, there is no one way to teach or learn knots that works for everyone. That s pretty
                          Message 12 of 30 , Dec 12, 2006
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                            Whoa, Lindsay, chill, we're all knot-tyers here!

                            Of course you are right, there is no one way to teach or learn knots
                            that works for everyone. That's pretty much true about all learning.
                            But, learning and remembering knots is pretty hard for us experienced
                            folk, and teaching newbies is even worse, so let's just appreciate any
                            comment, suggestion or opinion. Frankly, if an approach helps even
                            one person, I want to know about it.

                            Having said all that (holiday spirit etc etc), what exactly is the
                            difference between the picture and the "leapfrog" method? True, the
                            picture has only one arrow, but that arrow makes two moves - first,
                            the middle loop goes under a side loop, then it goes over everything
                            and through the center. Now, the second part of that is identical to
                            the "leapfrog" method. The first move differs only in that, in the
                            picture, the middle loop goes under an outer loop, whereas in the
                            "leapfrog" method, the outer loop goes over the middle loop. Aren't
                            these the same moves?

                            OK, I admit it may be easier to remember this picture. In any event,
                            I would certainly have to try teaching it both ways to have any strong
                            opinion. But I don't think it is a different method of tying.

                            So, am I just perpetuating the argument?

                            Happy Holidaze,
                            Michael



                            --- In knottyers@yahoogroups.com, Lindsey Philpott <pilgrimsailor@...>
                            wrote:
                            >
                            > I would hazard a guess that one reason it is so "easy to remember"
                            is because it is shown by a method that appears to you so hard to
                            remember -
                          • Lindsey Philpott
                            Hi Michael, Thanks for your response and how right you are also; I apologize to the group and to any individuals if I have upset the normal order - to answer
                            Message 13 of 30 , Dec 12, 2006
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                              Hi Michael,

                              Thanks for your response and how right you are also; I apologize to the group and to any individuals if I have upset the normal order - to answer your question - the leapfrog method only differs in one pictured maneuver and that is:

                              The loop nearest the thumb "leaps" over the other two loops, and then the "new" loop next the thumb "leaps" over both "new" loops again before diving under the two loops from the finger-ends towards the thumb

                              The improved method is as you say.

                              My point, which I am choosing now for the good of the group not to press, was that the word "easy" seemed to have been pressed into service a tad too much for my own comfort. I teach people how to tie knots every week and I like to hear about new methods also. I do not like to preface my remarks to newbies or anyone else with "this is easy" . 'Nuff said - thanks for spotting that they are essentially the same. Have you ever tried the twist and tuck method? It works for a large number of my students of all ages, because it allows them to "see" the formation of the loop.

                              Michael <nexialist02@...> wrote:
                              Whoa, Lindsay, chill, we're all knot-tyers here!

                              Of course you are right, there is no one way to teach or learn knots
                              that works for everyone. That's pretty much true about all learning.
                              But, learning and remembering knots is pretty hard for us experienced
                              folk, and teaching newbies is even worse, so let's just appreciate any
                              comment, suggestion or opinion. Frankly, if an approach helps even
                              one person, I want to know about it.

                              Having said all that (holiday spirit etc etc), what exactly is the
                              difference between the picture and the "leapfrog" method? True, the
                              picture has only one arrow, but that arrow makes two moves - first,
                              the middle loop goes under a side loop, then it goes over everything
                              and through the center. Now, the second part of that is identical to
                              the "leapfrog" method. The first move differs only in that, in the
                              picture, the middle loop goes under an outer loop, whereas in the
                              "leapfrog" method, the outer loop goes over the middle loop. Aren't
                              these the same moves?

                              OK, I admit it may be easier to remember this picture. In any event,
                              I would certainly have to try teaching it both ways to have any strong
                              opinion. But I don't think it is a different method of tying.

                              So, am I just perpetuating the argument?

                              Happy Holidaze,
                              Michael

                              --- In knottyers@yahoogroups.com, Lindsey Philpott <pilgrimsailor@...>
                              wrote:
                              >
                              > I would hazard a guess that one reason it is so "easy to remember"
                              is because it is shown by a method that appears to you so hard to
                              remember -






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