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RE: [KnotTyers] Knot Masters

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  • Jelle Tamminga
    John, I think this is a wonderful idea because knotting is a dying art :( The IGKT could maybe set up a uniform system of knots to be taught and in this case
    Message 1 of 29 , Oct 6, 2005
      John,

      I think this is a wonderful idea because knotting is a dying art :(
      The IGKT could maybe set up a uniform system of knots to be taught and in
      this case sensitive to the scouting requirements.
      I will ask around here locally at the district level to see if there is any
      interest in such a system.

      Jelle
      -----Original Message-----
      From: knottyers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:knottyers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
      Of radio_jacques
      Sent: Thursday, October 06, 2005 12:15 PM
      To: knottyers@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [KnotTyers] Knot Masters

      Hello,
      I have worked with a Cub Scout Den/Pack for a couple of years, and have
      noticed that most of the other leader can't even tie a square (Reef)
      knot, and the ones that can think it is wonderful for joining two ropes
      to make a longer Rope. I have Suggested a "Knot Masters" program
      similar to what Troop 708 (http://troop708.missouri.org/guidelines.pdf)
      is pursuing, but but feel a larger push toward knotting is warranted.
      My thought is; if a professional knotting group like the IGKT began
      such a program, they could possibly get National attention from the
      Boy/Cub Scouts organization. Do you gentlemen of knottyers think A)
      this is a reasonable idea, and B) we could work to start something like
      this?

      Thank you for your tim,
      John






      Yahoo! Groups Links
    • captdanny
      What about the Sea Scouts? danny Fred Dant wrote: Ken Since one of the major ideas behind the Guild is to promote knotcraft, what better way
      Message 2 of 29 , Oct 6, 2005
        What about the Sea Scouts?
        danny

        Fred Dant <bosn25@...> wrote:
        Ken
        Since one of the major ideas behind the Guild is to promote knotcraft, what better way than to make it exciting for young people ,especially Scouts. With their anniversary coming up soon it would be great if the Guild could propose a program for them. I'd love to help
        Fred Dant
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Gray, Ken E.
        To: knottyers@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Thursday, October 06, 2005 12:44 PM
        Subject: RE: [KnotTyers] Knot Masters


        What a very interesting program! I love the various levels and the
        breadth of the subject. Making them tell you what it is for is also
        very good.



        An idea that I have is that since there are a few dangerous applications
        for some knots (i.e. using the square knot for bending), you may require
        them to mention the dangerous uses as well (note: not all of them will
        have such notations necessary).



        I think this sort of thing is right up the IGKT's alley, however, I
        don't know how to start the ball rolling. My guess would be to have the
        Scouting authorities at at least the state level agree to talk with one
        of the officers in IGKT state-side branches to flesh out what the scouts
        would want on something like this and how the Guild could help (i.e.
        persons to judge when no suitable person for testing exists in the
        troop's particular area).



        I would love to help out on this in any way I could.



        http://www.igktpab.org/

        http://www.igktnab.org/

        http://texasknot.tripod.com/









        Ken







        -----Original Message-----
        From: knottyers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:knottyers@yahoogroups.com] On
        Behalf Of radio_jacques
        Sent: Thursday, October 06, 2005 11:15 AM
        To: knottyers@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [KnotTyers] Knot Masters



        Hello,

        I have worked with a Cub Scout Den/Pack for a couple of years, and have

        noticed that most of the other leader can't even tie a square (Reef)

        knot, and the ones that can think it is wonderful for joining two ropes

        to make a longer Rope. I have Suggested a "Knot Masters" program

        similar to what Troop 708 (http://troop708.missouri.org/guidelines.pdf)

        is pursuing, but but feel a larger push toward knotting is warranted.

        My thought is; if a professional knotting group like the IGKT began

        such a program, they could possibly get National attention from the

        Boy/Cub Scouts organization. Do you gentlemen of knottyers think A)

        this is a reasonable idea, and B) we could work to start something like

        this?



        Thank you for your tim,

        John














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      • larryhelber
        I like the idea of encouraging knot tying. Although I think this program would be a little too hard to get adopted by the BSA. The main reason is it borders
        Message 3 of 29 , Oct 6, 2005
          I like the idea of encouraging knot tying. Although I think this
          program would be a little too hard to get adopted by the BSA. The
          main reason is it borders too close along the lines of hazing. You are
          correct that many of the parents can't tie a proper knot. Your role
          as a knotthead is to encourage and show them how interesting, useful,
          and fun knot tying can be. Requiring them to learn knots just so they
          can wear a more masculen color is not going to gain many advocates.
          Also why is the green level exempt from challenges?

          --- In knottyers@yahoogroups.com, "radio_jacques" <nancyhoye@y...> wrote:
          > Hello,
          > I have worked with a Cub Scout Den/Pack for a couple of years, and have
          > noticed that most of the other leader can't even tie a square (Reef)
          > knot, and the ones that can think it is wonderful for joining two ropes
          > to make a longer Rope. I have Suggested a "Knot Masters" program
          > similar to what Troop 708 (http://troop708.missouri.org/guidelines.pdf)
          > is pursuing, but but feel a larger push toward knotting is warranted.
          > My thought is; if a professional knotting group like the IGKT began
          > such a program, they could possibly get National attention from the
          > Boy/Cub Scouts organization. Do you gentlemen of knottyers think A)
          > this is a reasonable idea, and B) we could work to start something like
          > this?
          >
          > Thank you for your tim,
          > John
        • LoopyLacer@aol.com
          In a message dated 10/6/2005 9:17:01 AM Pacific Daylight Time, nancyhoye@yahoo.com writes: Hello, I have worked with a Cub Scout Den/Pack for a couple of
          Message 4 of 29 , Oct 6, 2005
            In a message dated 10/6/2005 9:17:01 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
            nancyhoye@... writes:

            Hello,
            I have worked with a Cub Scout Den/Pack for a couple of years, and have
            noticed that most of the other leader can't even tie a square (Reef) knot, and
            the ones that can think it is wonderful for joining two ropes to make a longer
            Rope. I have Suggested a "Knot Masters" program similar to what Troop 708
            (http://troop708.missouri.org/guidelines.pdf) is pursuing, but feel a larger
            push toward knotting is warranted.
            My thought is; if a professional knotting group like the IGKT began such a
            program, they could possibly get National attention from the Boy/Cub Scouts
            organization. Do you gentlemen of knottyers think A) this is a reasonable
            idea, and B) we could work to start something like this?

            Thank you for your time,
            John

            I agree with Ken -- knowing how NOT to use a knot is at least as important
            as knowing how to use it. That aspect should definitely be incorporated into
            the program.

            Don't forget this great program for scoutmasters to learn knots and their
            uses:

            _Marlinspike Skills_ (http://www.marlinspikeskills.com/)

            < _http://www.marlinspikeskills.com_ (http://www.marlinspikeskills.com) >

            My brother got to go to this and I'm "boy-scout-green" with envy! Bill
            still talks about what a great time he had and how "Within the first hour the
            quality and quantity of training had already exceeded my expectations." Coming
            from Bill, that's saying quite a lot, as this is a man who has been on many a
            survival training trip and has even taught quite a few of his own!

            Okay, can't say THUD (THe Usual Disclaimers) for my brother, of course, but
            I can say it for the Marlinspike Skills weekend, as I have no affiliation
            whatsoever to that. : - )

            Perhaps the organizers of this event might be persuaded to contribute their
            expertise to the "knot masters" program, as well?

            Hope this helps,

            Lily


            Happily entangled in my own knots!
            Lily Qualls Morales
            Yucaipa, California, USA
            List Mom for _Tatting@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:Tatting@yahoogroups.com)
            List "Auntie" for _Rings_N_Chains@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:R
            ings_N_Chains@yahoogroups.com)
            Mail to: _LoopyLacer@..._ (mailto:LoopyLacer@...)
            Website: _http://www.loopylacer.com/_ (http://www.loopylacer.com/)
            Photo album: _http://photos.yahoo.com/LoopyLacer_
            (http://photos.yahoo.com/loopylacer)
            Exodus 35:35


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Eddie Climo
            It s a long time since I was in the Scouts, but the Scouts Handbook had a range of utilitarian knots that everyone had to learn as part of their Tenderfoot
            Message 5 of 29 , Oct 7, 2005
              It's a long time since I was in the Scouts, but the
              Scouts Handbook had a range of utilitarian knots that
              everyone had to learn as part of their Tenderfoot
              badge.
              Now it seems as if knots have become optional. Consarn
              it! Next they'll be making it optional to be a
              Christian, to lead a clean and abstemious life, and to
              swear personal allegiance to Her Majesty the Queen of
              England! Young people today ... I don't know what the
              world's coming to!!

              < btw ... lol ! >

              Eddie

              Eddie Climo
              eddie_climo@...



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            • Bill Paylor
              I am a scout master. We started an ALC (Advance Leadership Course), it is more then the Basic Leadership course, but less then the Woodbadge course. I use a
              Message 6 of 29 , Oct 7, 2005
                I am a scout master. We started an ALC (Advance Leadership Course), it is more then the Basic Leadership course, but less then the Woodbadge course. I use a handout with the basic BSA knots and lashing with the whipping, turkshead, and friendship knot. If you would like a copy to start training other you are more than welcome.

                LoopyLacer@... wrote:

                In a message dated 10/6/2005 9:17:01 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
                nancyhoye@... writes:

                Hello,
                I have worked with a Cub Scout Den/Pack for a couple of years, and have
                noticed that most of the other leader can't even tie a square (Reef) knot, and
                the ones that can think it is wonderful for joining two ropes to make a longer
                Rope. I have Suggested a "Knot Masters" program similar to what Troop 708
                (http://troop708.missouri.org/guidelines.pdf) is pursuing, but feel a larger
                push toward knotting is warranted.
                My thought is; if a professional knotting group like the IGKT began such a
                program, they could possibly get National attention from the Boy/Cub Scouts
                organization. Do you gentlemen of knottyers think A) this is a reasonable
                idea, and B) we could work to start something like this?

                Thank you for your time,
                John

                I agree with Ken -- knowing how NOT to use a knot is at least as important
                as knowing how to use it. That aspect should definitely be incorporated into
                the program.

                Don't forget this great program for scoutmasters to learn knots and their
                uses:

                _Marlinspike Skills_ (http://www.marlinspikeskills.com/)

                < _http://www.marlinspikeskills.com_ (http://www.marlinspikeskills.com) >

                My brother got to go to this and I'm "boy-scout-green" with envy! Bill
                still talks about what a great time he had and how "Within the first hour the
                quality and quantity of training had already exceeded my expectations." Coming
                from Bill, that's saying quite a lot, as this is a man who has been on many a
                survival training trip and has even taught quite a few of his own!

                Okay, can't say THUD (THe Usual Disclaimers) for my brother, of course, but
                I can say it for the Marlinspike Skills weekend, as I have no affiliation
                whatsoever to that. : - )

                Perhaps the organizers of this event might be persuaded to contribute their
                expertise to the "knot masters" program, as well?

                Hope this helps,

                Lily


                Happily entangled in my own knots!
                Lily Qualls Morales
                Yucaipa, California, USA
                List Mom for _Tatting@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:Tatting@yahoogroups.com)
                List "Auntie" for _Rings_N_Chains@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:R
                ings_N_Chains@yahoogroups.com)
                Mail to: _LoopyLacer@..._ (mailto:LoopyLacer@...)
                Website: _http://www.loopylacer.com/_ (http://www.loopylacer.com/)
                Photo album: _http://photos.yahoo.com/LoopyLacer_
                (http://photos.yahoo.com/loopylacer)
                Exodus 35:35


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                SPONSORED LINKS
                Hobby and craft supply Craft hobby Hobbies and crafts Knotting Knot tying

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                Visit your group "knottyers" on the web.

                To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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              • radio_jacques
                These are excellent points! The Color system would probably have to be changed. Paracord is available in 30 different colors. Some knot masters programs
                Message 7 of 29 , Oct 10, 2005
                  These are excellent points! The Color system would probably have to
                  be changed. Paracord is available in 30 different colors. Some knot
                  masters programs signify your knot tying level by a simple cord, with
                  a single knot denoting your rank: overhand for beginers, then figure
                  of eight, then Sheet Bend, and so forth. I just picked 708's
                  program becasuse it seemed a little mor organized thatn some of the
                  others.
                  And I agree that no one except beginers (and me of course) should be
                  exempt from challenges
                  Good input everyone!
                  --- In knottyers@yahoogroups.com, larryhelber <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                  >
                  > I like the idea of encouraging knot tying. Although I think this
                  > program would be a little too hard to get adopted by the BSA. The
                  > main reason is it borders too close along the lines of hazing. You
                  are
                  > correct that many of the parents can't tie a proper knot. Your role
                  > as a knotthead is to encourage and show them how interesting,
                  useful,
                  > and fun knot tying can be. Requiring them to learn knots just so
                  they
                  > can wear a more masculen color is not going to gain many advocates.
                  > Also why is the green level exempt from challenges?
                  >
                  > --- In knottyers@yahoogroups.com, "radio_jacques" <nancyhoye@y...>
                  wrote:
                  > > Hello,
                  > > I have worked with a Cub Scout Den/Pack for a couple of years,
                  and have
                  > > noticed that most of the other leader can't even tie a square
                  (Reef)
                  > > knot, and the ones that can think it is wonderful for joining two
                  ropes
                  > > to make a longer Rope. I have Suggested a "Knot Masters" program
                  > > similar to what Troop 708
                  (http://troop708.missouri.org/guidelines.pdf)
                  > > is pursuing, but but feel a larger push toward knotting is
                  warranted.
                  > > My thought is; if a professional knotting group like the IGKT
                  began
                  > > such a program, they could possibly get National attention from
                  the
                  > > Boy/Cub Scouts organization. Do you gentlemen of knottyers think
                  A)
                  > > this is a reasonable idea, and B) we could work to start
                  something like
                  > > this?
                  > >
                  > > Thank you for your tim,
                  > > John
                  >
                • Darin Carlson
                  I have worked at a Scout Camp in the Ore-Ida council a few years and I was given the task of teaching the Pioneering Merit Badge. Because this badge involves
                  Message 8 of 29 , Oct 10, 2005
                    I have worked at a Scout Camp in the Ore-Ida council a few years and I
                    was given the task of teaching the Pioneering Merit Badge. Because
                    this badge involves alot of rope work and lashing, I invented an
                    additional seminar held after classes called the "Knot Masters".

                    To become a 'Knot Master' you would attend the 1/2hr seminar every day
                    for 4 days. At the end, a test that involved:

                    1. Tying the 6 basic scout knots (Bowline, Clove Hitch, Sheet Bend,
                    Square Knot, Taught Line, Double Half Hitch) in less than 1 Minute.

                    2. Tie from memory the 10 additional knots that I taught during the
                    week. This would be different from week to week but would include
                    knots like the Carrick Bend, Timber Hitch, Zepplin and Water Knot etc.
                    (I would pull new ones out of this great book of knots I had.)

                    If you passed the test, an award was given that I had made personally.
                    It was a 6 foot toggle rope made of 1/2" Hemp with an ornate wooden
                    toggle that I had shaped from a lathe and wrapped in rawhide braid.
                    It took about an hour to make each one. The awards were handed out at
                    the final campfire in front of the rest of the camp. The scout could
                    then wear the toggle rope as part of his uniform and was usually
                    displayed proudly.

                    I did this for 3 years in a row and the seminar became very popular.
                    Sadly, after I went off to college, the 'Knot Masters' class was
                    forgotten. I still have my own toggle rope though that I wear as part
                    of my adult uniform.

                    (The toggle rope came into prominence in World War II with Commandos
                    who often in the course of duty had to scale walls, climb cliffs,
                    cross ravines. Instead of carrying long, bulky ropes, each Commando
                    had a 6-foot length of 1/2 inch rope, with an eye-splice in one end
                    and a toggle in the other, secured with an eye-splice. The open eye
                    splice was just large enough to allow the toggle to fit through and be
                    held firmly. The Commandos carried these ropes around their waists. To
                    make a long rope, several toggle ropes were simply interlocked.)
                  • Jelle Tamminga
                    The color system as displayed by troop 708 looks a lot like the belt system that they have within the various martial arts disciplines. I like the cord idea
                    Message 9 of 29 , Oct 10, 2005
                      The color system as displayed by troop 708 looks a lot like the belt system
                      that they have within the various martial arts disciplines.

                      I like the cord idea with a certain knot denoting your level expertise.
                      Maybe we can create a leather decal or so, with the IGKT and BSA logos on
                      it, and have the cord with knot hang from there, so the scout can display it
                      on his uniform.

                      I agree with the fact that everyone should be challenged no matter the level
                      of expertise.

                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: knottyers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:knottyers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                      Of radio_jacques
                      Sent: Monday, October 10, 2005 11:30 AM
                      To: knottyers@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: [KnotTyers] Re: Knot Masters

                      These are excellent points! The Color system would probably have to
                      be changed. Paracord is available in 30 different colors. Some knot
                      masters programs signify your knot tying level by a simple cord, with
                      a single knot denoting your rank: overhand for beginers, then figure
                      of eight, then Sheet Bend, and so forth. I just picked 708's
                      program becasuse it seemed a little mor organized thatn some of the
                      others.
                      And I agree that no one except beginers (and me of course) should be
                      exempt from challenges
                      Good input everyone!
                      --- In knottyers@yahoogroups.com, larryhelber <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                      >
                      > I like the idea of encouraging knot tying. Although I think this
                      > program would be a little too hard to get adopted by the BSA. The
                      > main reason is it borders too close along the lines of hazing. You
                      are
                      > correct that many of the parents can't tie a proper knot. Your role
                      > as a knotthead is to encourage and show them how interesting,
                      useful,
                      > and fun knot tying can be. Requiring them to learn knots just so
                      they
                      > can wear a more masculen color is not going to gain many advocates.
                      > Also why is the green level exempt from challenges?
                      >
                      > --- In knottyers@yahoogroups.com, "radio_jacques" <nancyhoye@y...>
                      wrote:
                      > > Hello,
                      > > I have worked with a Cub Scout Den/Pack for a couple of years,
                      and have
                      > > noticed that most of the other leader can't even tie a square
                      (Reef)
                      > > knot, and the ones that can think it is wonderful for joining two
                      ropes
                      > > to make a longer Rope. I have Suggested a "Knot Masters" program
                      > > similar to what Troop 708
                      (http://troop708.missouri.org/guidelines.pdf)
                      > > is pursuing, but but feel a larger push toward knotting is
                      warranted.
                      > > My thought is; if a professional knotting group like the IGKT
                      began
                      > > such a program, they could possibly get National attention from
                      the
                      > > Boy/Cub Scouts organization. Do you gentlemen of knottyers think
                      A)
                      > > this is a reasonable idea, and B) we could work to start
                      something like
                      > > this?
                      > >
                      > > Thank you for your tim,
                      > > John
                      >








                      Yahoo! Groups Links
                    • larryhelber
                      Acutally I wouldn t exempt myself from challenges. How can I be considered a knot master (actually they just call me The Knot Guy ) if I couldn t tie a named
                      Message 10 of 29 , Oct 10, 2005
                        Acutally I wouldn't exempt myself from challenges. How can I be
                        considered a knot master (actually they just call me "The Knot Guy")
                        if I couldn't tie a named knot. Might even be willing to give out a
                        prize if they could stump me. Right now I know I can tie all of the
                        First Class required knots and lashes with my eyes closed, plus and a
                        handful of commonly used knots that any sailor worth his spike should
                        know.

                        --- In knottyers@yahoogroups.com, "radio_jacques" <nancyhoye@y...>
                        > And I agree that no one except beginers (and me of course) should be
                        > exempt from challenges
                        > Good input everyone!
                      • radio_jacques
                        I am sure that I would not be exempt from testing, and would want to be. I get to tie more knots if I can be tested. Which is the real reason to do this, so
                        Message 11 of 29 , Oct 11, 2005
                          I am sure that I would not be exempt from testing, and would want to
                          be. I get to tie more knots if I can be tested. Which is the real
                          reason to do this, so I can tie more knots, and look like I know
                          something useful.

                          --- In knottyers@yahoogroups.com, larryhelber <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Acutally I wouldn't exempt myself from challenges. How can I be
                          > considered a knot master (actually they just call me "The Knot Guy")
                          > if I couldn't tie a named knot. Might even be willing to give out a
                          > prize if they could stump me. Right now I know I can tie all of the
                          > First Class required knots and lashes with my eyes closed, plus and
                          a
                          > handful of commonly used knots that any sailor worth his spike
                          should
                          > know.
                          >
                          > --- In knottyers@yahoogroups.com, "radio_jacques" <nancyhoye@y...>
                          > > And I agree that no one except beginers (and me of course) should
                          be
                          > > exempt from challenges
                          > > Good input everyone!
                          >
                        • Larry
                          I was a scout master for several years. I came up with an idea for teaching knots and leadership. I took one scout aside and taught him a knot. He had to
                          Message 12 of 29 , Oct 11, 2005
                            I was a scout master for several years.
                            I came up with an idea for teaching knots and leadership.
                            I took one scout aside and taught him a knot.
                            He had to direct another scout in tying it without scout 1 touching it. and so on through the troop
                            next was to tie it without looking at what the student scout was doing
                            They learn to give understandable directions and follow them


                            --------------------------------------------------------------------------------




                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Herman evers
                            Darin can you send a picture of this toggle rope? greetings Herman Evers Holland Darin Carlson wrote: I have worked at a Scout Camp in the
                            Message 13 of 29 , Oct 12, 2005
                              Darin
                              can you send a picture of this toggle rope?
                              greetings Herman Evers Holland

                              Darin Carlson <sp25841@...> wrote:
                              I have worked at a Scout Camp in the Ore-Ida council a few years and I
                              was given the task of teaching the Pioneering Merit Badge. Because
                              this badge involves alot of rope work and lashing, I invented an
                              additional seminar held after classes called the "Knot Masters".

                              To become a 'Knot Master' you would attend the 1/2hr seminar every day
                              for 4 days. At the end, a test that involved:

                              1. Tying the 6 basic scout knots (Bowline, Clove Hitch, Sheet Bend,
                              Square Knot, Taught Line, Double Half Hitch) in less than 1 Minute.

                              2. Tie from memory the 10 additional knots that I taught during the
                              week. This would be different from week to week but would include
                              knots like the Carrick Bend, Timber Hitch, Zepplin and Water Knot etc.
                              (I would pull new ones out of this great book of knots I had.)

                              If you passed the test, an award was given that I had made personally.
                              It was a 6 foot toggle rope made of 1/2" Hemp with an ornate wooden
                              toggle that I had shaped from a lathe and wrapped in rawhide braid.
                              It took about an hour to make each one. The awards were handed out at
                              the final campfire in front of the rest of the camp. The scout could
                              then wear the toggle rope as part of his uniform and was usually
                              displayed proudly.

                              I did this for 3 years in a row and the seminar became very popular.
                              Sadly, after I went off to college, the 'Knot Masters' class was
                              forgotten. I still have my own toggle rope though that I wear as part
                              of my adult uniform.

                              (The toggle rope came into prominence in World War II with Commandos
                              who often in the course of duty had to scale walls, climb cliffs,
                              cross ravines. Instead of carrying long, bulky ropes, each Commando
                              had a 6-foot length of 1/2 inch rope, with an eye-splice in one end
                              and a toggle in the other, secured with an eye-splice. The open eye
                              splice was just large enough to allow the toggle to fit through and be
                              held firmly. The Commandos carried these ropes around their waists. To
                              make a long rope, several toggle ropes were simply interlocked.)







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                            • Gray, Ken E.
                              I m of two minds on the challenge idea. I see that it is good in that it would keep everyone s skills touched up but having to put up with
                              Message 14 of 29 , Oct 12, 2005
                                I'm of two minds on the challenge idea. I see that it is good in that
                                it would keep everyone's skills touched up but having to put up with
                                challenge-after-challenge-after-challenge, why would I even want to test
                                up to that level when I can just learn the knots and not have to put up
                                with all the bs of dealing with having to be assigned remedial tasks
                                because I missed a tuck or loop and then have to retest to regain my
                                previous level (wow! William James would be proud of THAT sentence!).

                                Maybe if there was some sort of governor on the challenges/challenger,
                                it would be better but I haven't fleshed out that idea yet.

                                However, I really like the commando rope idea and think it would be a
                                great prize for the Knot Masters.

                                Ken


                                -----Original Message-----
                                From: knottyers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:knottyers@yahoogroups.com] On
                                Behalf Of radio_jacques
                                Sent: Monday, October 10, 2005 10:30 AM
                                To: knottyers@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: [KnotTyers] Re: Knot Masters

                                These are excellent points! The Color system would probably have to
                                be changed. Paracord is available in 30 different colors. Some knot
                                masters programs signify your knot tying level by a simple cord, with
                                a single knot denoting your rank: overhand for beginers, then figure
                                of eight, then Sheet Bend, and so forth. I just picked 708's
                                program becasuse it seemed a little mor organized thatn some of the
                                others.
                                And I agree that no one except beginers (and me of course) should be
                                exempt from challenges
                                Good input everyone!
                                --- In knottyers@yahoogroups.com, larryhelber <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                                >
                                > I like the idea of encouraging knot tying. Although I think this
                                > program would be a little too hard to get adopted by the BSA. The
                                > main reason is it borders too close along the lines of hazing. You
                                are
                                > correct that many of the parents can't tie a proper knot. Your role
                                > as a knotthead is to encourage and show them how interesting,
                                useful,
                                > and fun knot tying can be. Requiring them to learn knots just so
                                they
                                > can wear a more masculen color is not going to gain many advocates.
                                > Also why is the green level exempt from challenges?
                                >
                                > --- In knottyers@yahoogroups.com, "radio_jacques" <nancyhoye@y...>
                                wrote:
                                > > Hello,
                                > > I have worked with a Cub Scout Den/Pack for a couple of years,
                                and have
                                > > noticed that most of the other leader can't even tie a square
                                (Reef)
                                > > knot, and the ones that can think it is wonderful for joining two
                                ropes
                                > > to make a longer Rope. I have Suggested a "Knot Masters" program
                                > > similar to what Troop 708
                                (http://troop708.missouri.org/guidelines.pdf)
                                > > is pursuing, but but feel a larger push toward knotting is
                                warranted.
                                > > My thought is; if a professional knotting group like the IGKT
                                began
                                > > such a program, they could possibly get National attention from
                                the
                                > > Boy/Cub Scouts organization. Do you gentlemen of knottyers think
                                A)
                                > > this is a reasonable idea, and B) we could work to start
                                something like
                                > > this?
                                > >
                                > > Thank you for your tim,
                                > > John
                                >








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                              • Gerald L Findley
                                I have been involved in Scouts since 1951. During that time I have seen many so called experts teach knots incorrectly. Example: sheet bend with the ends on
                                Message 15 of 29 , Oct 12, 2005
                                  I have been involved in Scouts since 1951. During that time I have
                                  seen many so called experts teach knots incorrectly.

                                  Example:
                                  "sheet bend" with the ends on opposite sides of the knot. A sheet
                                  bend configured with the ends on opposite sides of the knot will
                                  spill if it repeatedly stressed. To be tied correctly the ends must
                                  be on the same side of the knot.

                                  "bowline" tied like a "sheet bend" by forming a bight in the
                                  standing end instead of an over hand loop. The configuration is the
                                  same but when the loop is loaded the bight straightens and the loop
                                  slides closed.

                                  "Overhand knot" tied against the lay of the rope.

                                  Knots being taught either right handed of left handed. Layed rope is
                                  right handed and knots should be taught in a right handed manor.
                                  Tying many knots in a left handed manor can results in the knot being
                                  tied against the lay of the rope. Tying a knot against the lay of the
                                  rope can place additional strain on the rope fiber. In some cases the
                                  entire strain on the knot is transferred to one of the three strands
                                  reducing the strength of the rope by 66%

                                  The ending "clove hitch" in lashings being tied by wrapping the rope
                                  around the spar rather than first tying a half hitch that can be
                                  worked tight against the lashing and finishing with a second half
                                  hitch that can be worked tight against the first. When the ending
                                  clove hitch is not worked tight against the lashing the clove hitch
                                  can rotate around the spar causing the entire lashing loosen and
                                  sometimes fail.

                                  When starting a lashing, the clove hitch is not secured by wrapping
                                  the end of the rope around the main part of the rope. If the end of
                                  the rope is not secured the clove hitch can rotate causing the
                                  lashing to loosen and fail.

                                  When starting a diagonal lashing the first turns around the spars
                                  should be on the opposite diagonal to the starting timber hitch. When
                                  the first turns are taken on the same diagonal as the starting timber
                                  hitch, the timber hitch and turns can rotate around the spars causing
                                  the lashing to loosen and fail.

                                  Teaching the square knot as a joining knot for ropes.The square knot
                                  is an excellent knot for tying packages and for first aid because of
                                  the ease with which it can be spilled to untie it. The ease with
                                  which the square knot can be spilled makes it a dangerous knot for
                                  joining ropes.

                                  These are just some of the things that I have been fighting for year.
                                  The worst of it is that many of these inaccuracies have worked their
                                  way into the Scouting literature, once they are there it is almost
                                  impossible to eradicate them.

                                  Unless a standard reference is established against which proficiency
                                  can be judged, dangerous and inaccurate information will continue to
                                  be taught. It will also require the willingness of the teacher to
                                  judge their own practices against this standard reference instead of
                                  saying this is the way I learned it and this is the way I am going to
                                  teach it.
                                • dan zercox
                                  When I taught 7th & 8th grade I taught an elective class in knot tying. Class was very popular and always full. Both boys and girls loved working with rope and
                                  Message 16 of 29 , Oct 12, 2005
                                    When I taught 7th & 8th grade I taught an elective class in knot tying. Class was very popular and always full. Both boys and girls loved working with rope and tying knots. Several thought the Handcuff knot was the coolest.


                                    Larry <maho47@...> wrote: I was a scout master for several years.
                                    I came up with an idea for teaching knots and leadership.
                                    I took one scout aside and taught him a knot.
                                    He had to direct another scout in tying it without scout 1 touching it. and so on through the troop
                                    next was to tie it without looking at what the student scout was doing
                                    They learn to give understandable directions and follow them


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                                  • James
                                    interesting that you made it an award, back when i was a scout. As an older scout or even Junior leader, our troop had adventure outings, many things
                                    Message 17 of 29 , Oct 12, 2005
                                      interesting that you made it an award, back when i was a scout. As
                                      an older scout or even Junior leader, our troop had adventure
                                      outings, many things covered knot tying being one of them( we made
                                      it pretty routine to learn and teach new knots to each other. We
                                      made the toggle rope ourselves on one of our survival outings. We
                                      also did commando war games as well at west piont as well as the
                                      camporee and jamboree, just FYI. so we were pretty active troop i
                                      guess. I still use the toggle rope today 25 years later in my
                                      camping gear to hang my coleman lantern on it. or for my bed role.

                                      On a separate note , I have since been a prof sailer for the last
                                      20years and fancy knot work has been one of my hobbies. many a
                                      monkey paw key chain for a friend or dormat or somthing.





                                      --- In knottyers@yahoogroups.com, "Darin Carlson" <sp25841@y...>
                                      wrote:
                                      >
                                      > I have worked at a Scout Camp in the Ore-Ida council a few years
                                      and I
                                      > was given the task of teaching the Pioneering Merit Badge. Because
                                      > this badge involves alot of rope work and lashing, I invented an
                                      > additional seminar held after classes called the "Knot Masters".
                                      >
                                      > To become a 'Knot Master' you would attend the 1/2hr seminar every
                                      day
                                      > for 4 days. At the end, a test that involved:
                                      >
                                      > 1. Tying the 6 basic scout knots (Bowline, Clove Hitch, Sheet Bend,
                                      > Square Knot, Taught Line, Double Half Hitch) in less than 1 Minute.
                                      >
                                      > 2. Tie from memory the 10 additional knots that I taught during the
                                      > week. This would be different from week to week but would include
                                      > knots like the Carrick Bend, Timber Hitch, Zepplin and Water Knot
                                      etc.
                                      > (I would pull new ones out of this great book of knots I had.)
                                      >
                                      > If you passed the test, an award was given that I had made
                                      personally.
                                      > It was a 6 foot toggle rope made of 1/2" Hemp with an ornate wooden
                                      > toggle that I had shaped from a lathe and wrapped in rawhide braid.
                                      > It took about an hour to make each one. The awards were handed out
                                      at
                                      > the final campfire in front of the rest of the camp. The scout could
                                      > then wear the toggle rope as part of his uniform and was usually
                                      > displayed proudly.
                                      >
                                      > I did this for 3 years in a row and the seminar became very
                                      popular.
                                      > Sadly, after I went off to college, the 'Knot Masters' class was
                                      > forgotten. I still have my own toggle rope though that I wear as
                                      part
                                      > of my adult uniform.
                                      >
                                      > (The toggle rope came into prominence in World War II with Commandos
                                      > who often in the course of duty had to scale walls, climb cliffs,
                                      > cross ravines. Instead of carrying long, bulky ropes, each Commando
                                      > had a 6-foot length of 1/2 inch rope, with an eye-splice in one end
                                      > and a toggle in the other, secured with an eye-splice. The open eye
                                      > splice was just large enough to allow the toggle to fit through and
                                      be
                                      > held firmly. The Commandos carried these ropes around their waists.
                                      To
                                      > make a long rope, several toggle ropes were simply interlocked.)
                                      >
                                    • Darin Carlson
                                      I ve thought about reinstating the Knot Masters program with the local troop my son just entered. There s a lot of boys though and I don t think I m up to
                                      Message 18 of 29 , Oct 19, 2005
                                        I've thought about reinstating the Knot Masters program with the local
                                        troop my son just entered. There's a lot of boys though and I don't
                                        think I'm up to making that many toggle ropes.

                                        So, I've altered the plan a little:

                                        Apprentice Knothead: Complete 6 basic knots in under 1 minute and
                                        identify and tie 10 additional knots. Those that complete apprentice
                                        level receive a 3/8" red nylon cord tied with a Boatswain's Whistle
                                        knot such that the loop is big enough to go over the head and the two
                                        working ends hang down about an inch. This is to be worn on the
                                        uniform under the neckerchief.

                                        Journeyman Knothead: Identify and tie an additional 24 knots of their
                                        choice. Those that complete journeyman level receive an orange Turks
                                        head tied with paracord above the whistle knot. The way I tied it, it
                                        slides up and down the loop like a bead.

                                        Master Knothead: Demonstrate 3 lashing techniques, 3 types of rope
                                        splicing and 5 decorative knots such as monkey fist, soloman's ladder,
                                        turks head, etc. Those completing master level will receive a dark
                                        green turks head added to their rope much like the journeyman.

                                        I chose the colors based on the colors that represent the three levels
                                        of scouting (Scout, Varsity, Explorer) and match the epilettes that
                                        are worn on the shoulder of the scout uniform. I have tied up a
                                        prototype with black paracord and it looks really nice. Once I get
                                        the real colors, I'll tie up the real deal and post a picture.

                                        Making it an award is just a motivational tool, because I have found
                                        that there isn't a lot of interest in learning knots. I explained to
                                        my son that knot tying is similar to playing with legos (he's a huge
                                        lego freak) Only you use rope instead of plastic blocks.

                                        --- In knottyers@yahoogroups.com, "James" <jeoiii@a...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > interesting that you made it an award, back when i was a scout. As
                                        > an older scout or even Junior leader, our troop had adventure
                                        > outings, many things covered knot tying being one of them( we made
                                        > it pretty routine to learn and teach new knots to each other. We
                                        > made the toggle rope ourselves on one of our survival outings. We
                                        > also did commando war games as well at west piont as well as the
                                        > camporee and jamboree, just FYI. so we were pretty active troop i
                                        > guess. I still use the toggle rope today 25 years later in my
                                        > camping gear to hang my coleman lantern on it. or for my bed role.
                                        >
                                        > On a separate note , I have since been a prof sailer for the last
                                        > 20years and fancy knot work has been one of my hobbies. many a
                                        > monkey paw key chain for a friend or dormat or somthing.
                                        >
                                      • M P
                                        Darin, Sounds like fun, and good motivation. However, I would not include the speed constraint in the Journeyman s level. Speed tying competitions are fun,
                                        Message 19 of 29 , Oct 20, 2005
                                          Darin,

                                          Sounds like fun, and good motivation. However, I would not include the speed constraint in the Journeyman's level. Speed tying competitions are fun, and may be useful at higher levels to demonstrate knowledge of alternate ways of tying basic knots, but taking all the time needed to dress and set a knot properly and carefully is an essential lesson in and of itself.

                                          In a knot tying video for rescue work, the teacher deliberately ties the knots efficiently but patiently and with care and attention at all times, even though it is supposedly a life-and-death situation. This is an important lesson for youngsters, much more important than speed of tying.

                                          Michael

                                          Darin Carlson <sp25841@...> wrote:
                                          I've thought about reinstating the Knot Masters program with the local
                                          troop my son just entered. There's a lot of boys though and I don't
                                          think I'm up to making that many toggle ropes.

                                          So, I've altered the plan a little:

                                          Apprentice Knothead: Complete 6 basic knots in under 1 minute and
                                          identify and tie 10 additional knots. Those that complete apprentice
                                          level receive a 3/8" red nylon cord tied with a Boatswain's Whistle
                                          knot such that the loop is big enough to go over the head and the two
                                          working ends hang down about an inch. This is to be worn on the
                                          uniform under the neckerchief.

                                          Journeyman Knothead: Identify and tie an additional 24 knots of their
                                          choice. Those that complete journeyman level receive an orange Turks
                                          head tied with paracord above the whistle knot. The way I tied it, it
                                          slides up and down the loop like a bead.

                                          Master Knothead: Demonstrate 3 lashing techniques, 3 types of rope
                                          splicing and 5 decorative knots such as monkey fist, soloman's ladder,
                                          turks head, etc. Those completing master level will receive a dark
                                          green turks head added to their rope much like the journeyman.

                                          I chose the colors based on the colors that represent the three levels
                                          of scouting (Scout, Varsity, Explorer) and match the epilettes that
                                          are worn on the shoulder of the scout uniform. I have tied up a
                                          prototype with black paracord and it looks really nice. Once I get
                                          the real colors, I'll tie up the real deal and post a picture.

                                          Making it an award is just a motivational tool, because I have found
                                          that there isn't a lot of interest in learning knots. I explained to
                                          my son that knot tying is similar to playing with legos (he's a huge
                                          lego freak) Only you use rope instead of plastic blocks.

                                          --- In knottyers@yahoogroups.com, "James" <jeoiii@a...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > interesting that you made it an award, back when i was a scout. As
                                          > an older scout or even Junior leader, our troop had adventure
                                          > outings, many things covered knot tying being one of them( we made
                                          > it pretty routine to learn and teach new knots to each other. We
                                          > made the toggle rope ourselves on one of our survival outings. We
                                          > also did commando war games as well at west piont as well as the
                                          > camporee and jamboree, just FYI. so we were pretty active troop i
                                          > guess. I still use the toggle rope today 25 years later in my
                                          > camping gear to hang my coleman lantern on it. or for my bed role.
                                          >
                                          > On a separate note , I have since been a prof sailer for the last
                                          > 20years and fancy knot work has been one of my hobbies. many a
                                          > monkey paw key chain for a friend or dormat or somthing.
                                          >







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                                          Hobby and craft supply Craft hobby Hobbies and crafts Knotting Knot tying

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                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • Darin Carlson
                                          The time constraint is only for the 6 basic knots at apprentice level. All other knots you can tie at your own pace. You re absolutely right that some of the
                                          Message 20 of 29 , Oct 21, 2005
                                            The time constraint is only for the 6 basic knots at apprentice level.
                                            All other knots you can tie at your own pace. You're absolutely
                                            right that some of the more complex knots take time to properly set.
                                            Anything that requires some kind of weave needs to be tightened just
                                            right.


                                            --- In knottyers@yahoogroups.com, M P <nexialist02@y...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > Darin,
                                            >
                                            > Sounds like fun, and good motivation. However, I would not include
                                            the speed constraint in the Journeyman's level. Speed tying
                                            competitions are fun, and may be useful at higher levels to
                                            demonstrate knowledge of alternate ways of tying basic knots, but
                                            taking all the time needed to dress and set a knot properly and
                                            carefully is an essential lesson in and of itself.
                                            >
                                            > In a knot tying video for rescue work, the teacher deliberately ties
                                            the knots efficiently but patiently and with care and attention at all
                                            times, even though it is supposedly a life-and-death situation. This
                                            is an important lesson for youngsters, much more important than speed
                                            of tying.
                                            >
                                            > Michael
                                            >
                                          • Steve Lawrence
                                            Darin, Have you considered the challenge aspect of the program that began this discussion? Part of my interest in perhaps doing something like Knot Master
                                            Message 21 of 29 , Oct 21, 2005
                                              Darin,
                                              Have you considered the challenge aspect of the program that began this
                                              discussion? Part of my interest in perhaps doing something like "Knot
                                              Master" is to have my scouts _retain_ their knot skills. Having been to
                                              the National Jamboree this summer, and watching the troop of older scouts
                                              I had struggle with some basics (bowline, taught line hitch), it is
                                              retention of how to tie that intrigued me. Yet, I haven't quite worked
                                              out in my mind the proper way to incentive the participants to remember
                                              the knots they've learned. I'm not particularly comfortable with the
                                              original threat of having to wash dishes on the next campout after loosing
                                              a challenge... too much to manage and borders on hazing.

                                              I really like your idea of an award neck cord. Perhaps a little more
                                              decorative than a piece of colored rope worn on the waist. Will you
                                              implement a way to loose the neck cord by failing a challenge? What are
                                              your thoughts about building in retention of the knot skills into a
                                              program?

                                              BTW at the Jamboree some troop from the NW US (Washington?) made some
                                              40,000 "woggles" (turks head neckerchief slides) from colored parachute
                                              cord and distributed them to all the scouts in attendance. There were
                                              something like 20 variations, with each troop receiving a random
                                              selection. The idea was for your troop to choose a particular color/style
                                              and then trade other troops until everyone in your troop had a matching
                                              woggle. It was a good idea - but the distribution was late in the week,
                                              so I didn't see the frantic trading. Also, I can't imagine producing some
                                              40,000 of them. Some were quite intricate - changing color several times
                                              mid-way through the woggle. This was done by joining different colored
                                              cord segments by fusing prior to making the turks head.

                                              Steve
                                            • Darin Carlson
                                              Steve, You make a good point about the retention aspect of it. The old addage Use it or loose it come to mind. I think the 3 best ways methods that encourage
                                              Message 22 of 29 , Oct 24, 2005
                                                Steve,

                                                You make a good point about the retention aspect of it.
                                                The old addage "Use it or loose it" come to mind.

                                                I think the 3 best ways methods that encourage repetition are to teach
                                                others, repetition, and using in a real application. I like the last
                                                one best of all. But how to retain 40 knots? I myself find this a
                                                little difficult. Some of the more abstract knots are not very useful
                                                or can be replaced by a better suited knot.

                                                When I teach a knot to someone, I always tell them what it is used
                                                for. But when is anyone going to run into the situation where they
                                                need to tie two 4 inch mooring cables together?

                                                I can see how speed tying encourages the individual to really analyze
                                                the knot to see if there are any shortcuts that will save time. This
                                                is why I know the 6 basic knots so well and can tie them blind.

                                                I'm not sure taking away a neckcord for not completing a challenge
                                                would be very constructive, and maybe a bit humiliating. In that case
                                                I would just suggest a little brush up on the basics. Perhaps he was
                                                just a little unprepared to be tested on old material.

                                                If someone asked you to tie a zepplin knot right now, could you? I
                                                know I've heard of a zepplin knot, and that I've tied it before, and
                                                that it's similar to a water knot. I probably wouldn't get it right
                                                though.
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