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Re: Gripe, gripe, gripe

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  • Hugo
    If there is an anticipation of getting the bowline knot wet, then having to untie it simply put a slip loop/knot into it. When ready to untie just pull the
    Message 1 of 10 , May 13, 2005
      If there is an anticipation of getting the bowline knot wet, then
      having to untie it simply put a slip loop/knot into it. When ready
      to untie just pull the slip knot and then it will be undone quickly.

      --- In knottyers@yahoogroups.com, "Gray, Ken E." <grayke@h...> wrote:
      > " It is almost impossible to untie a bowline in the rain while
      > there is a load on the line."
      >
      > Maybe that's how the backsplice got cut off ;o)
      >
      > Ken
      >
      >
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: knottyers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:knottyers@yahoogroups.com]
      On
      > Behalf Of wefnut
      > Sent: Thursday, May 12, 2005 9:53 PM
      > To: knottyers@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: [KnotTyers] Gripe, gripe, gripe
      >
      > I just got finished being in charge of logistics for a weekend
      > Festival. That means being in charge of the Festival's rope (in
      > addition to other things.) It rained, which added an extra
      > dimension of fun to the weekend.
      >
      > 1)You would hope that people would try to coil a rope rather than
      > toss it in a pile into a mud puddle.
      >
      > 2) I have no idea why someone cut off that back splice. No one
      > needed to reeve a rope through anything.
      >
      > 3)It is almost impossible to untie a bowline in the rain while
      > there is a load on the line.
      >
      > 4)The telegraph hitch that someone on this site told me about
      > worked. A telegraph hitch that teminated in a taughtline hitch
      > worked well for stringing a line between two smooth metal
      > poles.
      >
      > I had a fun weekend.
      > Thanks for letting me rant.
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
    • larry Osburn
      if you need to untie it under load take the load off with a prussic knot ... From: Hugo To: knottyers@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, May 13, 2005 11:11 AM
      Message 2 of 10 , May 13, 2005
        if you need to untie it under load take the load off with a prussic knot

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Hugo
        To: knottyers@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Friday, May 13, 2005 11:11 AM
        Subject: [KnotTyers] Re: Gripe, gripe, gripe


        If there is an anticipation of getting the bowline knot wet, then
        having to untie it simply put a slip loop/knot into it. When ready
        to untie just pull the slip knot and then it will be undone quickly.

        --- In knottyers@yahoogroups.com, "Gray, Ken E." <grayke@h...> wrote:
        > " It is almost impossible to untie a bowline in the rain while
        > there is a load on the line."
        >
        > Maybe that's how the backsplice got cut off ;o)
        >
        > Ken
        >
        >
        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: knottyers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:knottyers@yahoogroups.com]
        On
        > Behalf Of wefnut
        > Sent: Thursday, May 12, 2005 9:53 PM
        > To: knottyers@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: [KnotTyers] Gripe, gripe, gripe
        >
        > I just got finished being in charge of logistics for a weekend
        > Festival. That means being in charge of the Festival's rope (in
        > addition to other things.) It rained, which added an extra
        > dimension of fun to the weekend.
        >
        > 1)You would hope that people would try to coil a rope rather than
        > toss it in a pile into a mud puddle.
        >
        > 2) I have no idea why someone cut off that back splice. No one
        > needed to reeve a rope through anything.
        >
        > 3)It is almost impossible to untie a bowline in the rain while
        > there is a load on the line.
        >
        > 4)The telegraph hitch that someone on this site told me about
        > worked. A telegraph hitch that teminated in a taughtline hitch
        > worked well for stringing a line between two smooth metal
        > poles.
        >
        > I had a fun weekend.
        > Thanks for letting me rant.
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links




        ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • M P
        I suspect the backsplice was cut off by a jealous piece of velcro. Most knots are hard to untie under load. Plus, what happens to the load when you untie the
        Message 3 of 10 , May 13, 2005
          I suspect the backsplice was cut off by a jealous piece of velcro.

          Most knots are hard to untie under load. Plus, what happens to the load when you untie the knot?

          "Exploding" knots are useful if untieing is going to be an issue. There is a wonderful knot in the (relatively new) knot book "The Directory of Knots" by 'John Shaw' (supposedly a pseudonym for Budworth?) which he calls a "peace knot". Its a fixed loop, easier to tie and untie than the bowline and at least as secure (bowlines, in my experience, are fairly insecure, so I would really hesitate to tie a slip-bowline). I use this knot all the time now for quick loops, completely replacing the bowline (whose main advantage was always speed and ease of tying).

          I'm not really up on posting images, and I know that written descriptions of knots are hard to follow, but I will try, since this knot is so useful. If someone more versatile than I wants to post a picture, please do.

          Anyway, to tie this loop:

          Pinch a bight in the line near the working end;

          The remaining working end then loops down and back to the pinch point (which you are still holding closed), forming the actual loop. This allows you to size the loop pretty close to its final size.

          Now, the working end goes around the pinch point of the bight for one-and-a-half round turns. Start with the working end on your side of the rope, go over the top, make a round turn around the pinch point, and then continue around to the back of the rope;

          Reeve the working end through the loop (which is hanging down), from back to front;

          make another bight in the working end and stick it through the little bight (i.e. the one which you originally pinched). This is the "slip bight". I don't think it matters much which way you put it through, except for appearance.

          Work it tight. This is where this knot has a real advantage over most other knots that I know of. Ordinarily, dressing and setting a slip knot takes some care, because you have to pull on the "slip bight" without accidently pulling the working end through and losing the "slip". But, on this knot, if your round turn was made tight, all you have to do is grab the round turn and slide the knot closed, and it is practically already set! If you're like me, you probably will give the "slip bight" a pull anyway, but you almost dont have to.

          Try it and you'll see what I mean. Make the original "pinched" bight big, for ease of tying. You'll get all that rope back when you slide the knot closed, anyway!

          Happy Camping,
          Michael






          Hugo <hippshooter@...> wrote:
          If there is an anticipation of getting the bowline knot wet, then
          having to untie it simply put a slip loop/knot into it. When ready
          to untie just pull the slip knot and then it will be undone quickly.

          --- In knottyers@yahoogroups.com, "Gray, Ken E." <grayke@h...> wrote:
          > " It is almost impossible to untie a bowline in the rain while
          > there is a load on the line."
          >
          > Maybe that's how the backsplice got cut off ;o)
          >
          > Ken
          >
          >
          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: knottyers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:knottyers@yahoogroups.com]
          On
          > Behalf Of wefnut
          > Sent: Thursday, May 12, 2005 9:53 PM
          > To: knottyers@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: [KnotTyers] Gripe, gripe, gripe
          >
          > I just got finished being in charge of logistics for a weekend
          > Festival. That means being in charge of the Festival's rope (in
          > addition to other things.) It rained, which added an extra
          > dimension of fun to the weekend.
          >
          > 1)You would hope that people would try to coil a rope rather than
          > toss it in a pile into a mud puddle.
          >
          > 2) I have no idea why someone cut off that back splice. No one
          > needed to reeve a rope through anything.
          >
          > 3)It is almost impossible to untie a bowline in the rain while
          > there is a load on the line.
          >
          > 4)The telegraph hitch that someone on this site told me about
          > worked. A telegraph hitch that teminated in a taughtline hitch
          > worked well for stringing a line between two smooth metal
          > poles.
          >
          > I had a fun weekend.
          > Thanks for letting me rant.
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links




          ---------------------------------
          Yahoo! Groups Links

          To visit your group on the web, go to:
          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/knottyers/

          To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          knottyers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

          Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • wefnut
          It sounds like you are describing something similar to my truckers hitch (so many knots get that name.) A slip knot would be nice, but in a public venue, I had
          Message 4 of 10 , May 13, 2005
            It sounds like you are describing something similar to my
            truckers hitch (so many knots get that name.) A slip knot would
            be nice, but in a public venue, I had to consider the effect of "busy
            little fingers" from the crowd.



            --- In knottyers@yahoogroups.com, M P <nexialist02@y...> wrote:
            > I suspect the backsplice was cut off by a jealous piece of
            velcro.
            >
            > Most knots are hard to untie under load. Plus, what happens
            to the load when you untie the knot?
            >
            > "Exploding" knots are useful if untieing is going to be an issue.
            There is a wonderful knot in the (relatively new) knot book "The
            Directory of Knots" by 'John Shaw' (supposedly a pseudonym for
            Budworth?) which he calls a "peace knot". Its a fixed loop, easier
            to tie and untie than the bowline and at least as secure
            (bowlines, in my experience, are fairly insecure, so I would really
            hesitate to tie a slip-bowline). I use this knot all the time now for
            quick loops, completely replacing the bowline (whose main
            advantage was always speed and ease of tying).
            >
            > I'm not really up on posting images, and I know that written
            descriptions of knots are hard to follow, but I will try, since this
            knot is so useful. If someone more versatile than I wants to post
            a picture, please do.
            >
            > Anyway, to tie this loop:
            >
            > Pinch a bight in the line near the working end;
            >
            > The remaining working end then loops down and back to the
            pinch point (which you are still holding closed), forming the
            actual loop. This allows you to size the loop pretty close to its
            final size.
            >
            > Now, the working end goes around the pinch point of the
            bight for one-and-a-half round turns. Start with the working end
            on your side of the rope, go over the top, make a round turn
            around the pinch point, and then continue around to the back of
            the rope;
            >
            > Reeve the working end through the loop (which is hanging
            down), from back to front;
            >
            > make another bight in the working end and stick it through the
            little bight (i.e. the one which you originally pinched). This is the
            "slip bight". I don't think it matters much which way you put it
            through, except for appearance.
            >
            > Work it tight. This is where this knot has a real advantage
            over most other knots that I know of. Ordinarily, dressing and
            setting a slip knot takes some care, because you have to pull on
            the "slip bight" without accidently pulling the working end through
            and losing the "slip". But, on this knot, if your round turn was
            made tight, all you have to do is grab the round turn and slide the
            knot closed, and it is practically already set! If you're like me, you
            probably will give the "slip bight" a pull anyway, but you almost
            dont have to.
            >
            > Try it and you'll see what I mean. Make the original "pinched"
            bight big, for ease of tying. You'll get all that rope back when you
            slide the knot closed, anyway!
            >
            > Happy Camping,
            > Michael
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Hugo <hippshooter@h...> wrote:
            > If there is an anticipation of getting the bowline knot wet, then
            > having to untie it simply put a slip loop/knot into it. When ready
            > to untie just pull the slip knot and then it will be undone quickly.
            >
            > --- In knottyers@yahoogroups.com, "Gray, Ken E."
            <grayke@h...> wrote:
            > > " It is almost impossible to untie a bowline in the rain while
            > > there is a load on the line."
            > >
            > > Maybe that's how the backsplice got cut off ;o)
            > >
            > > Ken
            > >
            > >
            > > -----Original Message-----
            > > From: knottyers@yahoogroups.com
            [mailto:knottyers@yahoogroups.com]
            > On
            > > Behalf Of wefnut
            > > Sent: Thursday, May 12, 2005 9:53 PM
            > > To: knottyers@yahoogroups.com
            > > Subject: [KnotTyers] Gripe, gripe, gripe
            > >
            > > I just got finished being in charge of logistics for a weekend
            > > Festival. That means being in charge of the Festival's rope
            (in
            > > addition to other things.) It rained, which added an extra
            > > dimension of fun to the weekend.
            > >
            > > 1)You would hope that people would try to coil a rope rather
            than
            > > toss it in a pile into a mud puddle.
            > >
            > > 2) I have no idea why someone cut off that back splice. No
            one
            > > needed to reeve a rope through anything.
            > >
            > > 3)It is almost impossible to untie a bowline in the rain while
            > > there is a load on the line.
            > >
            > > 4)The telegraph hitch that someone on this site told me
            about
            > > worked. A telegraph hitch that teminated in a taughtline hitch
            > > worked well for stringing a line between two smooth metal
            > > poles.
            > >
            > > I had a fun weekend.
            > > Thanks for letting me rant.
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > ---------------------------------
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            > To visit your group on the web, go to:
            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/knottyers/
            >
            > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            > knottyers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            >
            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
            Service.
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Hugo
            Michael, Here s a link that describes 6 exploding knots , are any of these the knot you re talking about? The description of yours seems much more involved
            Message 5 of 10 , May 13, 2005
              Michael,
              Here's a link that describes 6 "exploding knots", are any of these
              the knot you're talking about? The description of yours seems much
              more involved than a bowline. While I can agree with you that the
              bowline may well not be the proper knot for a particular load but,
              that was the "subject" to begin with.

              http://www.earlham.edu/~peters/writing/explode.htm

              Thanks,
              Hugo

              --- In knottyers@yahoogroups.com, M P <nexialist02@y...> wrote:
              > I suspect the backsplice was cut off by a jealous piece of velcro.
              >
              > Most knots are hard to untie under load. Plus, what happens to the
              load when you untie the knot?
              >
              > "Exploding" knots are useful if untieing is going to be an issue.
              There is a wonderful knot in the (relatively new) knot book "The
              Directory of Knots" by 'John Shaw' (supposedly a pseudonym for
              Budworth?) which he calls a "peace knot". Its a fixed loop, easier
              to tie and untie than the bowline and at least as secure (bowlines,
              in my experience, are fairly insecure, so I would really hesitate to
              tie a slip-bowline). I use this knot all the time now for quick
              loops, completely replacing the bowline (whose main advantage was
              always speed and ease of tying).
              >
              > I'm not really up on posting images, and I know that written
              descriptions of knots are hard to follow, but I will try, since this
              knot is so useful. If someone more versatile than I wants to post a
              picture, please do.
              >
              > Anyway, to tie this loop:
              >
              > Pinch a bight in the line near the working end;
              >
              > The remaining working end then loops down and back to the pinch
              point (which you are still holding closed), forming the actual loop.
              This allows you to size the loop pretty close to its final size.
              >
              > Now, the working end goes around the pinch point of the bight
              for one-and-a-half round turns. Start with the working end on your
              side of the rope, go over the top, make a round turn around the pinch
              point, and then continue around to the back of the rope;
              >
              > Reeve the working end through the loop (which is hanging down),
              from back to front;
              >
              > make another bight in the working end and stick it through the
              little bight (i.e. the one which you originally pinched). This is
              the "slip bight". I don't think it matters much which way you put it
              through, except for appearance.
              >
              > Work it tight. This is where this knot has a real advantage over
              most other knots that I know of. Ordinarily, dressing and setting a
              slip knot takes some care, because you have to pull on the "slip
              bight" without accidently pulling the working end through and losing
              the "slip". But, on this knot, if your round turn was made tight,
              all you have to do is grab the round turn and slide the knot closed,
              and it is practically already set! If you're like me, you probably
              will give the "slip bight" a pull anyway, but you almost dont have
              to.
              >
              > Try it and you'll see what I mean. Make the original "pinched"
              bight big, for ease of tying. You'll get all that rope back when you
              slide the knot closed, anyway!
              >
              > Happy Camping,
              > Michael
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Hugo <hippshooter@h...> wrote:
              > If there is an anticipation of getting the bowline knot wet, then
              > having to untie it simply put a slip loop/knot into it. When ready
              > to untie just pull the slip knot and then it will be undone quickly.
              >
              > --- In knottyers@yahoogroups.com, "Gray, Ken E." <grayke@h...>
              wrote:
              > > " It is almost impossible to untie a bowline in the rain while
              > > there is a load on the line."
              > >
              > > Maybe that's how the backsplice got cut off ;o)
              > >
              > > Ken
              > >
              > >
              > > -----Original Message-----
              > > From: knottyers@yahoogroups.com
              [mailto:knottyers@yahoogroups.com]
              > On
              > > Behalf Of wefnut
              > > Sent: Thursday, May 12, 2005 9:53 PM
              > > To: knottyers@yahoogroups.com
              > > Subject: [KnotTyers] Gripe, gripe, gripe
              > >
              > > I just got finished being in charge of logistics for a weekend
              > > Festival. That means being in charge of the Festival's rope (in
              > > addition to other things.) It rained, which added an extra
              > > dimension of fun to the weekend.
              > >
              > > 1)You would hope that people would try to coil a rope rather than
              > > toss it in a pile into a mud puddle.
              > >
              > > 2) I have no idea why someone cut off that back splice. No one
              > > needed to reeve a rope through anything.
              > >
              > > 3)It is almost impossible to untie a bowline in the rain while
              > > there is a load on the line.
              > >
              > > 4)The telegraph hitch that someone on this site told me about
              > > worked. A telegraph hitch that teminated in a taughtline hitch
              > > worked well for stringing a line between two smooth metal
              > > poles.
              > >
              > > I had a fun weekend.
              > > Thanks for letting me rant.
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ---------------------------------
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              > To visit your group on the web, go to:
              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/knottyers/
              >
              > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              > knottyers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              >
              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
              Service.
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Michael Erickson
              Hugo, I am not completly sure what knot Michael is talking about. I did notice that in all six of the exploding knots you referanced, the standing end bends as
              Message 6 of 10 , May 14, 2005
                Hugo,
                I am not completly sure what knot Michael is talking about.
                I did notice that in all six of the exploding knots you referanced,
                the standing end bends as part of the knot before it reaches the
                hitching point.

                In the standard hitches, bowline, taughtline, 2 half-hitches, the
                standing end is straight until it reaches the object to which it is
                hitching. I think this would make a significant strength difference.

                WEFnut


                --- In knottyers@yahoogroups.com, "Hugo" <hippshooter@h...>
                wrote:
                > Michael,
                > Here's a link that describes 6 "exploding knots", are any of
                these
                > the knot you're talking about? The description of yours seems
                much
                > more involved than a bowline. While I can agree with you that
                the
                > bowline may well not be the proper knot for a particular load
                but,
                > that was the "subject" to begin with.
                >
                > http://www.earlham.edu/~peters/writing/explode.htm
                >
                > Thanks,
                > Hugo
                >
              • Michael Erickson
                Oops, A bowline does have busy-ness in it before it reaches the hitching point. My error. Thats what I get for thinking about knots late at night without a
                Message 7 of 10 , May 14, 2005
                  Oops,
                  A bowline does have busy-ness in it before it reaches the
                  hitching point. My error. Thats what I get for thinking about knots
                  late at night without a rope.

                  WEFnut

                  > Hugo,
                  > I am not completly sure what knot Michael is talking about.
                  > I did notice that in all six of the exploding knots you referanced,
                  > the standing end bends as part of the knot before it reaches
                  the
                  > hitching point.
                  >
                  > In the standard hitches, bowline, taughtline, 2 half-hitches, the
                  > standing end is straight until it reaches the object to which it is
                  > hitching. I think this would make a significant strength
                  difference.
                  >
                  > WEFnut
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In knottyers@yahoogroups.com, "Hugo" <hippshooter@h...>
                  > wrote:
                  > > Michael,
                  > > Here's a link that describes 6 "exploding knots", are any of
                  > these
                  > > the knot you're talking about? The description of yours
                  seems
                  > much
                  > > more involved than a bowline. While I can agree with you that
                  > the
                  > > bowline may well not be the proper knot for a particular load
                  > but,
                  > > that was the "subject" to begin with.
                  > >
                  > > http://www.earlham.edu/~peters/writing/explode.htm
                  > >
                  > > Thanks,
                  > > Hugo
                  > >
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