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Saving in brother format on floppy disk

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  • mapmsmith2
    I have a brother floppy disk drive and a PC can t read the info on the disks. If someone can figure how to write onto a brother floppy disk format using a
    Message 1 of 8 , Nov 29, 2004
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      I have a brother floppy disk drive and a PC can't read the info on
      the disks. If someone can figure how to write onto a brother floppy
      disk format using a regular PC then that would also work. I heard
      that the floppy disk drive is really a Radio Shack product and that
      someone figured out how to convert an old floppy disk drive into a
      Brother one. (I think I saw it on the list host forsale list but I
      am not sure anymore.)
      I also posted on another list that Infoshape 90 was an old program
      that works just like DAK but only with Brother machines. Alice
    • John R. Hogerhuis
      ... This is mostly not possible, as it requires a special floppy controller. The standard floppy controller on PC motherboards is not capable of reading the
      Message 2 of 8 , Nov 29, 2004
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        On Mon, 2004-11-29 at 12:57, mapmsmith2 wrote:
        > I have a brother floppy disk drive and a PC can't read the info on
        > the disks. If someone can figure how to write onto a brother floppy
        > disk format using a regular PC then that would also work. I heard
        > that the floppy disk drive is really a Radio Shack product and that
        > someone figured out how to convert an old floppy disk drive into a
        > Brother one. (I think I saw it on the list host forsale list but I
        > am not sure anymore.)


        This is mostly not possible, as it requires a special floppy controller.
        The standard floppy controller on PC motherboards is not capable of
        reading the Brother format. Supposedly with an Amiga or a "catweasel"
        PCI controller one could write the appropriate driver to read these
        disks, but short of that it is not possible.

        The only way known working way to read a brother disk is with a brother
        drive.

        There are two different RS models. They are both Brother hardware. The
        older one is actually equivalent aside from the DIP switch that was
        added to the unit. The DIP switch baud rate needs to be set to 9600bps
        and then it should work fine. The "newer" RS disk drive cannot be made
        to act like a Brother drive without significant (and unknown)
        modifications. The primary problem is that the drive is locked at
        19200bps and the km talks at 9600bps. But in addition to that, I believe
        the protocol is changed somewhat, making it totally incompatible short
        of replacing the ROM image.

        -- John.

        > I also posted on another list that Infoshape 90 was an old program
        > that works just like DAK but only with Brother machines. Alice
        >
      • mikezcnc
        I wasn t able to locate the Infoshape 90. RadioShack disk drive. You are possibly referring to TPPD and TPPD 2. This is exactly what John posted in the file
        Message 3 of 8 , Nov 29, 2004
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          I wasn't able to locate the Infoshape 90.

          RadioShack disk drive. You are possibly referring to TPPD and TPPD 2.
          This is exactly what John posted in the file section. I also added
          several links to TRS100 group that mention details about that drive.

          I tried to runa demo of DAK and got a message that program won't run
          on DOS nor Windows and something about 16 bits. It is a well
          documented problem with windows that I see on occasion using software
          designed for DOS and then window'ized.

          However, looking at the screenshot examples I must admit that it
          sounds sweeter and sweeter to be able to run a Brother knitter under
          windows (I am sure that I am the only person in tee world that has
          that installation problem and it has nothing to do with DAK being a
          fine program). For $450 I would expect DAK to fly right out of the
          setup without even needing windows. Dejavu.. that's why we are here.
          Questions to a dealer of DAK went unanswered, questinos to DAK are
          probably also in a queue.

          Mike



          --- In kminternals@yahoogroups.com, "mapmsmith2" <mapmsmith2@y...>
          wrote:
          >
          > I have a brother floppy disk drive and a PC can't read the info on
          > the disks. If someone can figure how to write onto a brother
          floppy
          > disk format using a regular PC then that would also work. I heard
          > that the floppy disk drive is really a Radio Shack product and that
          > someone figured out how to convert an old floppy disk drive into a
          > Brother one. (I think I saw it on the list host forsale list but I
          > am not sure anymore.)
          > I also posted on another list that Infoshape 90 was an old program
          > that works just like DAK but only with Brother machines. Alice
        • John R. Hogerhuis
          ... Well I wouldn t hold my breath. They probably consider any information about data formats, etc. their proprietary trade secret and won t give it out. Your
          Message 4 of 8 , Nov 29, 2004
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            On Mon, 2004-11-29 at 15:03, mikezcnc wrote:
            > Questions to a dealer of DAK went unanswered, questinos to DAK are
            > probably also in a queue.
            >

            Well I wouldn't hold my breath. They probably consider any information
            about data formats, etc. their proprietary trade secret and won't give
            it out.

            Your best bet if you just want general information about DAK is to ask
            questions about the product to a sales rep and don't mention kminternals
            or this project.

            My $.02 anyway...

            -- John.
          • mikezcnc
            I agree. Look here: http://tinyurl.com/6hskf http://tinyurl.com/7yo9d Except for it is for an embroidery machine. About DAK like program: it onsists of two
            Message 5 of 8 , Nov 29, 2004
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              I agree. Look here:
              http://tinyurl.com/6hskf
              http://tinyurl.com/7yo9d

              Except for it is for an embroidery machine.

              About DAK like program: it onsists of two parts, one is a design
              package, that takes colors, shapes, styles into consideration to
              calculate a control file for the machine. The second part of the
              program is the data trasfer protocol and file.

              I am interested in downloading the data from a PC to a machine and/or
              possibly data from the machine to a PC for a modification within a PC.

              I understand that it is very difficult to write a program to output a
              control file for the machine according to a requirement, a certain
              type of a sweater. But it cannot be that difficukt to send the data

              from a PC to the machine and vice versa. What kind of data is a
              different matter at this time.
              John, do you know how many motors are in a knitter and if they are
              steppers or servos?

              Are there any other control variables, like solenoids, counters,
              relays?

              Mike



              --- In kminternals@yahoogroups.com, "John R. Hogerhuis" <jhoger@p...>
              wrote:
              > On Mon, 2004-11-29 at 15:03, mikezcnc wrote:
              > > Questions to a dealer of DAK went unanswered, questinos to DAK
              are
              > > probably also in a queue.
              > >
              >
              > Well I wouldn't hold my breath. They probably consider any
              information
              > about data formats, etc. their proprietary trade secret and won't
              give
              > it out.
              >
              > Your best bet if you just want general information about DAK is to
              ask
              > questions about the product to a sales rep and don't mention
              kminternals
              > or this project.
              >
              > My $.02 anyway...
              >
              > -- John.
            • John R. Hogerhuis
              ... Yeah my Mom has an embroidery sewing machine that can take these proprietary oddball flash cards, probably the same kind. The data format for these
              Message 6 of 8 , Nov 29, 2004
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                On Mon, 2004-11-29 at 15:50, mikezcnc wrote:
                > I agree. Look here:
                > http://tinyurl.com/6hskf
                > http://tinyurl.com/7yo9d
                >
                > Except for it is for an embroidery machine.

                Yeah my Mom has an embroidery sewing machine that can take these
                proprietary oddball flash cards, probably the same kind.

                The data format for these machines has already been reverse engineered,
                and there is actually a related SourceForge free software project.

                http://embroidermodder.sourceforge.net/

                I found this on the web, I include it here only to give a feeling for
                what I want to figure out for the Brother 930 KM (this is actually for
                an embroidery KSM file format):

                Structure of a KSM (Pfaff professional) design file :

                (all values given in HEX)


                Design data starts at 200 Hex = Byte 512 dec.

                Three bytes per stitch, data is stored unsigned while signing of
                x- and y-
                coordinates is done by two bits in Byte three

                typical standard stitches :

                Hex values : Binary equivalent:
                Explanation (dec)

                NNNN 0F 02 80 00001111 00000010 10000000 y+15 , x+2
                NNNN 0A 06 C0 00001010 00000110 11000000 y+10 , x-6
                NNNN 03 7F A0 00000011 01111111 10100000 y-3 , x+127
                NNNN 20 13 E0 00100000 00010011 11100000 y-32 , x-19

                Bytes 1 and 2 of each stitch hold the unsigned stitch length,
                bit 7 of byte
                three is ALWAYS set, bit 6 tells you y is negative, while bit 5
                negates x.

                Color changes:

                NNNN 03 08 99 00000011 00001000 10011001 y+3 , x+8
                color change

                Bits 0,3,4 of byte 3 set tell you this is a color change record.




                Back to KM's though:

                >
                > About DAK like program: it onsists of two parts, one is a design
                > package, that takes colors, shapes, styles into consideration to
                > calculate a control file for the machine. The second part of the
                > program is the data trasfer protocol and file.
                >
                > I am interested in downloading the data from a PC to a machine and/or
                > possibly data from the machine to a PC for a modification within a PC.
                >
                > I understand that it is very difficult to write a program to output a
                > control file for the machine according to a requirement, a certain
                > type of a sweater. But it cannot be that difficukt to send the data
                >
                > from a PC to the machine and vice versa. What kind of data is a
                > different matter at this time.
                > John, do you know how many motors are in a knitter and if they are
                > steppers or servos?

                Don't know much about the km hardware (yet), and at the moment my
                interest is confined to the data format. I'm a programmer so I probably
                have my own limit as to how helpful I can be there in any event, but
                certainly your questions are on-topic for this list, and I hope someone
                following along can help you.

                Although Brother km's are "machines" they have a strong manual
                intervention component. If you're looking to seriously automate things
                there is a hard limit to what you can do unless you are adding motors
                and replacing the control panel with your own circuit board connected to
                a PC.

                Brother km's are hobbyist devices, and aren't really intended to be
                completely automated.

                -- John.
              • mikezcnc
                Great info. Once I get the machine I will be able to tell what can be done with it. I am surprised that the knitting machine market is not developed more,
                Message 7 of 8 , Nov 29, 2004
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                  Great info. Once I get the machine I will be able to tell what can be
                  done with it. I am surprised that the knitting machine market is not
                  developed more, relative to CNC market, although I am thankful for
                  DAK. Your comment that KH-940 requires a high human intervention tell
                  me that maybe I don't need the program and cable for a long time
                  because if there are 555 Brother designed patterns stored in ROM
                  then maybe it is practical to use them rather than getting into
                  making my own designs.

                  I also know that there is a Garter accessiry that automates teh
                  machine. Mike








                  --- In kminternals@yahoogroups.com, "John R. Hogerhuis" <jhoger@p...>
                  wrote:
                  > On Mon, 2004-11-29 at 15:50, mikezcnc wrote:
                  > > I agree. Look here:
                  > > http://tinyurl.com/6hskf
                  > > http://tinyurl.com/7yo9d
                  > >
                  > > Except for it is for an embroidery machine.
                  >
                  > Yeah my Mom has an embroidery sewing machine that can take these
                  > proprietary oddball flash cards, probably the same kind.
                  >
                  > The data format for these machines has already been reverse
                  engineered,
                  > and there is actually a related SourceForge free software project.
                  >
                  > http://embroidermodder.sourceforge.net/
                  >
                  > I found this on the web, I include it here only to give a feeling
                  for
                  > what I want to figure out for the Brother 930 KM (this is actually
                  for
                  > an embroidery KSM file format):
                  >
                  > Structure of a KSM (Pfaff professional) design file :
                  >
                  > (all values given in HEX)
                  >
                  >
                  > Design data starts at 200 Hex = Byte 512 dec.
                  >
                  > Three bytes per stitch, data is stored unsigned while
                  signing of
                  > x- and y-
                  > coordinates is done by two bits in Byte three
                  >
                  > typical standard stitches :
                  >
                  > Hex values : Binary equivalent:

                  > Explanation (dec)
                  >
                  > NNNN 0F 02 80 00001111 00000010 10000000
                  y+15 , x+2
                  > NNNN 0A 06 C0 00001010 00000110 11000000
                  y+10 , x-6
                  > NNNN 03 7F A0 00000011 01111111 10100000 y-3 , x+127
                  > NNNN 20 13 E0 00100000 00010011 11100000 y-32 , x-19
                  >
                  > Bytes 1 and 2 of each stitch hold the unsigned stitch
                  length,
                  > bit 7 of byte
                  > three is ALWAYS set, bit 6 tells you y is negative, while
                  bit 5
                  > negates x.
                  >
                  > Color changes:
                  >
                  > NNNN 03 08 99 00000011 00001000 10011001 y+3 , x+8
                  >
                  color change
                  >
                  > Bits 0,3,4 of byte 3 set tell you this is a color change
                  record.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Back to KM's though:
                  >
                  > >
                  > > About DAK like program: it onsists of two parts, one is a design
                  > > package, that takes colors, shapes, styles into consideration to
                  > > calculate a control file for the machine. The second part of the
                  > > program is the data trasfer protocol and file.
                  > >
                  > > I am interested in downloading the data from a PC to a machine
                  and/or
                  > > possibly data from the machine to a PC for a modification within
                  a PC.
                  > >
                  > > I understand that it is very difficult to write a program to
                  output a
                  > > control file for the machine according to a requirement, a
                  certain
                  > > type of a sweater. But it cannot be that difficukt to send the
                  data
                  > >
                  > > from a PC to the machine and vice versa. What kind of data is a
                  > > different matter at this time.
                  > > John, do you know how many motors are in a knitter and if they
                  are
                  > > steppers or servos?
                  >
                  > Don't know much about the km hardware (yet), and at the moment my
                  > interest is confined to the data format. I'm a programmer so I
                  probably
                  > have my own limit as to how helpful I can be there in any event, but
                  > certainly your questions are on-topic for this list, and I hope
                  someone
                  > following along can help you.
                  >
                  > Although Brother km's are "machines" they have a strong manual
                  > intervention component. If you're looking to seriously automate
                  things
                  > there is a hard limit to what you can do unless you are adding
                  motors
                  > and replacing the control panel with your own circuit board
                  connected to
                  > a PC.
                  >
                  > Brother km's are hobbyist devices, and aren't really intended to be
                  > completely automated.
                  >
                  > -- John.
                • John R. Hogerhuis
                  ... Actually you can enter patterns completely from the control panel if you re really desperate, no PPD or FDD required. If someone were interested an a more
                  Message 8 of 8 , Nov 29, 2004
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                    On Mon, 2004-11-29 at 16:59, mikezcnc wrote:
                    > Great info. Once I get the machine I will be able to tell what can be
                    > done with it. I am surprised that the knitting machine market is not
                    > developed more, relative to CNC market, although I am thankful for
                    > DAK. Your comment that KH-940 requires a high human intervention tell
                    > me that maybe I don't need the program and cable for a long time
                    > because if there are 555 Brother designed patterns stored in ROM
                    > then maybe it is practical to use them rather than getting into
                    > making my own designs.
                    >
                    > I also know that there is a Garter accessiry that automates teh
                    > machine. Mike


                    Actually you can enter patterns completely from the control panel if
                    you're really desperate, no PPD or FDD required.

                    If someone were interested an a more difficult project, it might be
                    interesting to reverse engineer the PPD. It has its own processor in it,
                    I don't know what kind. Some Yamaha chip. Maybe it is a z80 workalike or
                    something.

                    Conceivably one could add some code to the M.E.S.S emulator to emulate
                    this machine. Get the ROM and you could turn any computer into a PDD.
                    Probably the machine is simple enough to even emulate directly on a Palm
                    PDA.

                    -- John.
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