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[ksurf] Re: tough launch areas

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  • Steve Shugart
    kiteboar-@aol.com wrote: original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/kitesurf/?start=9582 ... you land ... I ve ... tried a ... I tried my 5.0 ATK in the
    Message 1 of 15 , Feb 1, 2000
      kiteboar-@... wrote:
      original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/kitesurf/?start=9582
      > When considering KiteSki, check Banshee. Either will stay wherever
      you land
      > them (until you pick up the leading edge) hence their reelbar need.
      I've
      > used 2-line inflatables with a reelbar which works fine. Anybody
      tried a
      > 2-line foil with a reelbar?
      >
      > Tom
      >
      >
      I tried my 5.0 ATK in the park with my reel bar 2 line. It work ok, but
      if the lines don't wind up exactly the same, one can become longer than
      the other, if the kite is not inflated this can make it harder to steer.

      I also tried the reel in 4 line mode, I need to add some deslacking
      bungee
      on the brakes otherwise it has a tendancy to foul up the lines in the
      reel.

      Finally decided to brave the cold and flew the ATK 5.0 in really gusty
      conditions, got dragged into the lake, the kite was relaunchable and
      still
      had air in it after 7 or 8 minutes of letting it drag me to the other
      shore.


      Steve
    • Frank Kubin
      I usually launch from a leeward shore with heavy cover. Normally I weigh the Wipika down on shore, wade out to extend the lines and then walk out in the
      Message 2 of 15 , Feb 1, 2000
        I usually launch from a leeward shore with heavy cover. Normally I weigh the
        Wipika down on shore, wade out to extend the lines and then walk out in the
        shallows to a launchable area. The kite is dragged all over the place and
        why I am usually using the inflatable. Getting out to deeper water is more
        of a challenge depending on wind direction and strength.
        As I get my butt to better launch sites I'll make more use of my F-one and
        other foils.

        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: Matt Bartell [mailto:mbartell@...]
        > Sent: Monday, January 31, 2000 12:55 PM
        > To: kitesurf@egroups.com
        > Subject: [ksurf] tough launch areas
        >
        >
        > Hello everyone:
        >
        > First let me say that I am new to kitesurfing, in fact I can
        > not even get on
        > the water until the ice melts in march-April.
        >
        > I have a question that I have not yet seen addressed buy this
        > group. I will
        > be kitesurfing on inland lakes. Almost all of the nearby lakes are
        > surrounded by trees that will make launching a kite on land
        > and than flying
        > it to the water impossible. I have no interest in snagging a
        > $1000 kite on a
        > tree trying to get it to the water. In fact I think that even
        > just flying it
        > by the brindles may be risky. The best(?) idea that I have so
        > far, is to use
        > a c-quad with float tubes, and walk out into the shallow
        > water to launch it.
        > This in fact may be a benefit to the flat design of the
        > c-quad, because it
        > will not just "auto launch" as I walk the lines tight.
        >
        > My only experience so far is with a c-quad and a snowboard on
        > the snowy
        > frozen lake; so I just walk out and launch from the snow.
        >
        > I would be happy to buy true water launch-able kite, but I
        > need a reasonable
        > answer to this concern first. I am worried about an
        > inflatable just blowing
        > away, and a ram-air getting soaked before it is inflated. I
        > can not count on
        > having someone available to assist me with launching an
        > inflatable or any
        > other kite.
        >
        > Any advise would be greatly appreciated.
        >
        > Thanks,
        >
        > Matt
        >
        >
        >
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      • Fritz Gramkowski
        kiteboar-@aol.com wrote: original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/kitesurf/?start=9605 ... safety line ... its an ... face ... wipika ... safety line ...
        Message 3 of 15 , Feb 1, 2000
          kiteboar-@... wrote:
          original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/kitesurf/?start=9605
          > In a message dated 2/1/00 8:06:49 AM Pacific Standard Time,
          > O1withwind@... writes:
          >
          > << > Anybody tried a
          > > 2-line foil with a reelbar?
          > >
          > Yup,
          > with no way to depower the kite for landing and no way to use a
          safety line
          > (wipika style won't work, just causes the kite to spin and power up)
          its an
          > all around bad idea. I saw some newbies get dragged down the beach
          face
          > first while trying to land with a setup like this. I'd recomend a
          wipika
          > and
          > a reel bar, then look at hung vu's site to see how to set up the
          safety line
          > for a reel bar. >>
          >
          >
          > Is there a way to depower a 2-line foil for landing with a NON-reel
          bar?
          >
          > Wouldn't the "Wipika style" (tube over one line w/leash at top of
          tube?) work
          > if it was long enough? (full kite-span) Isn't that what's required
          with a
          > non-reel bar?
          >
          > Tom
          As previously stated this doesn't work with a 2 line foil because half
          of the kite will always stay inflated no matter how much line you let
          out. The bridle points on a Wipika or Naish are at the wing tips, so
          if you put enough slack on one line the kite will depower. The bridles
          on a foil are not at the wing tip and they work with the internal
          pressure to give the kite its shape. Releasing one line will only
          depower half of the kite, the kite will go into a spin and slowly loose
          altitude until it crashes.

          You should be able fly a foil in three line mode off of a reel bar and
          apply a system similar to the Hung Vu tubing one used on a Wipika to
          the third line to depower the kite by dropping the bar.

          Has anyone tried 3 lines on a reel boom?
          It is amazing how well the kite ski system can launch from anywhere.
          Still even with out a real bar I can launch from some tight places, if
          the water is shallow all a need is enough space to lay out my kite.

          Fritz
        • David Raue
          There d be a risk of concentrating an enormous amount of force on just a few bridle lines. Normally the forces are pretty evenly distributed. Foils don t like
          Message 4 of 15 , Feb 2, 2000
            There'd be a risk of concentrating an enormous amount of force on just a
            few bridle lines. Normally the forces are pretty evenly distributed.
            Foils don't like that kind of treatment very much, at least mine don't -
            things like torn skin, pulled out attachment points, etc. But as a last
            resort, I guess the kite would stop!

            ----------
            > From: KiteBoard@...
            > To: kitesurf@egroups.com
            > Subject: [ksurf] Re: tough launch areas
            > Date: Tuesday, February 01, 2000 2:32 PM
            >
            > In a message dated 2/1/00 8:06:49 AM Pacific Standard Time,
            > O1withwind@... writes:
            >
            > << > Anybody tried a
            > > 2-line foil with a reelbar?
            > >
            > Yup,
            > with no way to depower the kite for landing and no way to use a safety
            line
            > (wipika style won't work, just causes the kite to spin and power up) its
            an
            > all around bad idea. I saw some newbies get dragged down the beach face

            > first while trying to land with a setup like this. I'd recomend a
            wipika
            > and
            > a reel bar, then look at hung vu's site to see how to set up the safety
            line
            > for a reel bar. >>
            >
            >
            > Is there a way to depower a 2-line foil for landing with a NON-reel bar?
            >
            > Wouldn't the "Wipika style" (tube over one line w/leash at top of tube?)
            work
            > if it was long enough? (full kite-span) Isn't that what's required with
            a
            > non-reel bar?
            >
            > Tom
            >
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          • Ian Young
            ... Not directly downwind, but I just park my kite down on the edge of the wind window - I usually snag it on the plastic bins on the beach but if I miss I
            Message 5 of 15 , Feb 2, 2000
              > Is there a way to depower a 2-line foil for landing with a NON-reel bar?

              Not directly downwind, but I just park my kite down on the edge of the wind
              window - I usually snag it on the plastic bins on the beach but if I miss I just
              keep tension on the bottom line as it rolls directly downwind - it doesn't power
              up at all.

              > Wouldn't the "Wipika style" (tube over one line w/leash at top of tube?) work
              > if it was long enough?

              The bridling on a foil makes it act like two single line kites sewn together -
              worse if cross-bridled. If you release (or de-tension) one line, the other half
              will continue to fly and spin around the released side of the wing at a great
              rate of knots - you will get a reduction in power and the kite will spiral to the
              deck and totally depower but it takes time (usually 3-4 rotations).

              > (full kite-span) Isn't that what's required with a non-reel bar?

              Makes no difference if it is a reel bar or not

              Cheers,
              Ian Young

              WinDesigns Australia - Australia's First Kite Ski&Surf School
              9 Oliver St, Scarborough, WA, AUSTRALIA, 6019
              Phone: +61 8 9245 4603
              Fax: +61 8 9245 4657
              Mobile: 0414 716 812
              Email: IanYoung@...
              Webpage: http://www.iinet.net.au/~ianyoung/
            • O1withwind@aol.com
              In a message dated 2/1/00 2:32:43 PM Eastern Standard Time, KiteBoard@aol.com ... Tom, with all the current soft kites on the market, using a two line bar is
              Message 6 of 15 , Feb 2, 2000
                In a message dated 2/1/00 2:32:43 PM Eastern Standard Time, KiteBoard@...
                writes:

                >
                > Is there a way to depower a 2-line foil for landing with a NON-reel bar?
                >
                > Wouldn't the "Wipika style" (tube over one line w/leash at top of tube?)
                > work
                > if it was long enough? (full kite-span) Isn't that what's required with a
                > non-reel bar?
                >
                > Tom
                Tom,
                with all the current soft kites on the market, using a two line bar is asking
                for trouble. when you drop one line the kite will always go into a power
                spin. It may depower a little bit but in higher winds it may even power up
                more, and if your kite has cross bridleing like the mosiquto it will power up
                big if you just drop one line. reguardless a foil in the air spining on one
                line is imposible to controll and a danger to anyone around you on the beach.
                This is why most of the foil makers recomend you fly their foils on no less
                than three lines. The brakes coming to the center of the bar gives you a way
                to depower and maintain control of the kite. Since the brake line needs only
                be #150 line or so, it doesen't add much drag. GOD FORBID you use a reel bar
                with one of these kites if it got away from you the kite will not depower and
                the bar is heavy enough to keep the kite flying till the bar snags on
                something ( like that spectators child ) then the kites powers up more and
                continues to fly and beat itself on the ground till it gets trashed or
                snagged on that other little kid building a sand castle. So, even if you
                think "oh I can just let go" The kite will still be a danger to anyone
                within 500meters or so.
                If you're curious, find an EMPTY beach and try droping one line with your
                kite high and near the center of power. don't forget the wrist leash on your
                bar for the full getting dragged on your face effect.
                FLY SAFE
                PEACE&WIND
                Josh Young
              • David Raue
                ... With all due respect I must disagree. The bridle is dimensioned to give the arch shape when both sides of the bridle are more-or-less pointing towards the
                Message 7 of 15 , Feb 2, 2000
                  ----------
                  > From: Fritz Gramkowski <fritz@...>
                  > To: kitesurf@...
                  > Subject: [ksurf] Re: tough launch areas
                  > Date: Tuesday, February 01, 2000 8:33 PM
                  >
                  >>snip<<

                  > As previously stated this doesn't work with a 2 line foil because half
                  > of the kite will always stay inflated no matter how much line you let
                  > out. The bridle points on a Wipika or Naish are at the wing tips, so
                  > if you put enough slack on one line the kite will depower. The bridles
                  > on a foil are not at the wing tip and they work with the internal
                  > pressure to give the kite its shape. Releasing one line will only
                  > depower half of the kite, the kite will go into a spin and slowly loose
                  > altitude until it crashes.

                  With all due respect I must disagree. The bridle is dimensioned to give
                  the arch shape when both sides of the bridle are more-or-less pointing
                  towards the same point (the flier). Let go of one side and the geometry is
                  all upset. You might have a few cells still inflated, but the cells on
                  with slack bridle lines, i.e., those distant on either side would be unable
                  to inflate. I think you'd see a QUICK collapse/spiral into a tangled
                  mess. If stopping the kite in an emergency is the goal then this would
                  "work." But forget relaunching! I gotta believe this would also be hell
                  on the kite. But I avoid doing this stuff, tell me if my thinking is all
                  wrong, later,

                  Dave
                • Fritz Gramkowski
                  david raue wrote: original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/kitesurf/?start=9643 ... half ... let ... so ... bridles ... loose
                  Message 8 of 15 , Feb 2, 2000
                    "david raue" <therave-@...> wrote:
                    original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/kitesurf/?start=9643
                    > ----------
                    > > From: Fritz Gramkowski <fritz@...>
                    > > To: kitesurf@...
                    > > Subject: [ksurf] Re: tough launch areas
                    > > Date: Tuesday, February 01, 2000 8:33 PM
                    > >
                    > >>snip<<
                    >
                    > > As previously stated this doesn't work with a 2 line foil because
                    half
                    > > of the kite will always stay inflated no matter how much line you
                    let
                    > > out. The bridle points on a Wipika or Naish are at the wing tips,
                    so
                    > > if you put enough slack on one line the kite will depower. The
                    bridles
                    > > on a foil are not at the wing tip and they work with the internal
                    > > pressure to give the kite its shape. Releasing one line will only
                    > > depower half of the kite, the kite will go into a spin and slowly
                    loose
                    > > altitude until it crashes.
                    >
                    > With all due respect I must disagree. The bridle is dimensioned to
                    give
                    > the arch shape when both sides of the bridle are more-or-less pointing
                    > towards the same point (the flier). Let go of one side and the
                    geometry is
                    > all upset. You might have a few cells still inflated, but the cells
                    on
                    > with slack bridle lines, i.e., those distant on either side would be
                    unable
                    > to inflate. I think you'd see a QUICK collapse/spiral into a tangled
                    > mess. If stopping the kite in an emergency is the goal then this
                    would
                    > "work." But forget relaunching! I gotta believe this would also be
                    hell
                    > on the kite. But I avoid doing this stuff, tell me if my thinking is
                    all
                    > wrong, later,
                    >
                    > Dave
                    >
                    How much a kite depowers depends on the bridles. I have experience
                    letting go of one line using cross bridled peels (buggying over powered
                    in gusty off shore winds). Because it is extensively cross bridled a
                    Peel stays about 3/4 inflated and goes into a spin and slowly
                    descends. Most current foils do not have as much cross bridling as a
                    Peel but will exhibit similar behavior, one half collapses and the
                    other stays pretty much inflated and partially powered up. The kite
                    goes into a spin and eventually crashes. I have seen this when I have
                    broken a line, the kite partially collapses (less if its a valved foil)
                    and goes into a spin, it depoweres quit a bit but not completely. You
                    end up with a mess, not too bad to sort out on land but I wouldn't want
                    to try and do it on the water. I hope no one thought I was
                    recommending this method as I don't think it will work on the water, I
                    recommended using a third line to de-power the kite in the next
                    paragraph of the origonal post.

                    For foils the best way to collaspe and depower is to use the brakes,
                    for four lines pull in both or use a third line attached to both brake
                    lines on the kite, if you slacken the power lines and keep tension on
                    the brake lines the kite will collaspe, depower, and not should not be
                    too hard to relaunch.

                    Fritz
                  • KiteBoard@aol.com
                    In a message dated 2/1/00 5:37:05 PM Pacific Standard Time, fritz@kepnet.com writes:
                    Message 9 of 15 , Feb 2, 2000
                      In a message dated 2/1/00 5:37:05 PM Pacific Standard Time, fritz@...
                      writes:

                      << As previously stated this doesn't work with a 2 line foil because half
                      of the kite will always stay inflated no matter how much line you let
                      out. >>

                      Somebody else mentioned it, since I'd forgotten about those pesky bridles,
                      although theraves@... writes:
                      << But as a last resort, I guess the kite would stop! ...If stopping the kite
                      in an emergency is the goal then this would "work.">>

                      My real point was that a two-line foil shouldn't work any worse with a
                      reelbar, than with a plain bar.

                      Tom
                    • KiteBoard@aol.com
                      In a message dated 2/2/00 5:56:29 AM Pacific Standard Time, ianyoung@iinet.net.au writes: That s all I
                      Message 10 of 15 , Feb 2, 2000
                        In a message dated 2/2/00 5:56:29 AM Pacific Standard Time,
                        ianyoung@... writes:

                        << Makes no difference if it is a reel bar or not >>

                        That's all I really meant.

                        Tom
                      • KiteBoard@aol.com
                        In a message dated 2/2/00 7:44:09 AM Pacific Standard Time, O1withwind@aol.com writes:
                        Message 11 of 15 , Feb 2, 2000
                          In a message dated 2/2/00 7:44:09 AM Pacific Standard Time,
                          O1withwind@... writes:

                          << with all the current soft kites on the market, using a two line bar is
                          asking
                          for trouble. >>

                          Again, that's all I meant. You seemed to be blaming the reel (possibly my
                          misinterpretation), when in fact the problem is any bar with a two-line foil.

                          << GOD FORBID you use a reel bar
                          with one of these kites if it got away from you >>

                          Well who wouldn't even have a leash on his kite?

                          << the kite will not depower and
                          the bar is heavy enough to keep the kite flying till the bar snags on
                          something ( like that spectators child ) then the kites powers up more and
                          continues to fly and beat itself on the ground till it gets trashed or
                          snagged on that other little kid building a sand castle. So, even if you
                          think "oh I can just let go" The kite will still be a danger to anyone
                          within 500meters or so. >>

                          Possibly even more

                          << If you're curious, find an EMPTY beach and try droping one line with your
                          kite high and near the center of power. don't forget the wrist leash on
                          your
                          bar for the full getting dragged on your face effect. >>

                          If I was stupid enough to try that (which I'm not), I'd do it where I do all
                          similar (though usually somewhat less foolish) testing, in offshore winds in
                          the bay. That way the worst case scenario is a body drag, followed by
                          releasing the leash from my wrist, then kite flying across open water while I
                          swim a short distance to shore.

                          Tom
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