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[ksurf] Re: tough launch areas

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  • O1withwind@aol.com
    In a message dated 1/31/00 7:31:40 PM Eastern Standard Time, ... Yup, with no way to depower the kite for landing and no way to use a safety line (wipika style
    Message 1 of 15 , Feb 1 8:05 AM
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      In a message dated 1/31/00 7:31:40 PM Eastern Standard Time,
      KiteBoard@... writes:

      > Anybody tried a
      > 2-line foil with a reelbar?
      >
      Yup,
      with no way to depower the kite for landing and no way to use a safety line
      (wipika style won't work, just causes the kite to spin and power up) its an
      all around bad idea. I saw some newbies get dragged down the beach face
      first while trying to land with a setup like this. I'd recomend a wipika and
      a reel bar, then look at hung vu's site to see how to set up the safety line
      for a reel bar.
      FLY SAFE
      Josh Young
    • KiteBoard@aol.com
      In a message dated 2/1/00 8:06:49 AM Pacific Standard Time, O1withwind@aol.com writes: Anybody tried a ... Yup, with no way to depower the kite for
      Message 2 of 15 , Feb 1 11:32 AM
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        In a message dated 2/1/00 8:06:49 AM Pacific Standard Time,
        O1withwind@... writes:

        << > Anybody tried a
        > 2-line foil with a reelbar?
        >
        Yup,
        with no way to depower the kite for landing and no way to use a safety line
        (wipika style won't work, just causes the kite to spin and power up) its an
        all around bad idea. I saw some newbies get dragged down the beach face
        first while trying to land with a setup like this. I'd recomend a wipika
        and
        a reel bar, then look at hung vu's site to see how to set up the safety line
        for a reel bar. >>


        Is there a way to depower a 2-line foil for landing with a NON-reel bar?

        Wouldn't the "Wipika style" (tube over one line w/leash at top of tube?) work
        if it was long enough? (full kite-span) Isn't that what's required with a
        non-reel bar?

        Tom
      • Steve Shugart
        kiteboar-@aol.com wrote: original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/kitesurf/?start=9582 ... you land ... I ve ... tried a ... I tried my 5.0 ATK in the
        Message 3 of 15 , Feb 1 12:55 PM
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          kiteboar-@... wrote:
          original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/kitesurf/?start=9582
          > When considering KiteSki, check Banshee. Either will stay wherever
          you land
          > them (until you pick up the leading edge) hence their reelbar need.
          I've
          > used 2-line inflatables with a reelbar which works fine. Anybody
          tried a
          > 2-line foil with a reelbar?
          >
          > Tom
          >
          >
          I tried my 5.0 ATK in the park with my reel bar 2 line. It work ok, but
          if the lines don't wind up exactly the same, one can become longer than
          the other, if the kite is not inflated this can make it harder to steer.

          I also tried the reel in 4 line mode, I need to add some deslacking
          bungee
          on the brakes otherwise it has a tendancy to foul up the lines in the
          reel.

          Finally decided to brave the cold and flew the ATK 5.0 in really gusty
          conditions, got dragged into the lake, the kite was relaunchable and
          still
          had air in it after 7 or 8 minutes of letting it drag me to the other
          shore.


          Steve
        • Frank Kubin
          I usually launch from a leeward shore with heavy cover. Normally I weigh the Wipika down on shore, wade out to extend the lines and then walk out in the
          Message 4 of 15 , Feb 1 1:46 PM
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            I usually launch from a leeward shore with heavy cover. Normally I weigh the
            Wipika down on shore, wade out to extend the lines and then walk out in the
            shallows to a launchable area. The kite is dragged all over the place and
            why I am usually using the inflatable. Getting out to deeper water is more
            of a challenge depending on wind direction and strength.
            As I get my butt to better launch sites I'll make more use of my F-one and
            other foils.

            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: Matt Bartell [mailto:mbartell@...]
            > Sent: Monday, January 31, 2000 12:55 PM
            > To: kitesurf@egroups.com
            > Subject: [ksurf] tough launch areas
            >
            >
            > Hello everyone:
            >
            > First let me say that I am new to kitesurfing, in fact I can
            > not even get on
            > the water until the ice melts in march-April.
            >
            > I have a question that I have not yet seen addressed buy this
            > group. I will
            > be kitesurfing on inland lakes. Almost all of the nearby lakes are
            > surrounded by trees that will make launching a kite on land
            > and than flying
            > it to the water impossible. I have no interest in snagging a
            > $1000 kite on a
            > tree trying to get it to the water. In fact I think that even
            > just flying it
            > by the brindles may be risky. The best(?) idea that I have so
            > far, is to use
            > a c-quad with float tubes, and walk out into the shallow
            > water to launch it.
            > This in fact may be a benefit to the flat design of the
            > c-quad, because it
            > will not just "auto launch" as I walk the lines tight.
            >
            > My only experience so far is with a c-quad and a snowboard on
            > the snowy
            > frozen lake; so I just walk out and launch from the snow.
            >
            > I would be happy to buy true water launch-able kite, but I
            > need a reasonable
            > answer to this concern first. I am worried about an
            > inflatable just blowing
            > away, and a ram-air getting soaked before it is inflated. I
            > can not count on
            > having someone available to assist me with launching an
            > inflatable or any
            > other kite.
            >
            > Any advise would be greatly appreciated.
            >
            > Thanks,
            >
            > Matt
            >
            >
            >
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          • Fritz Gramkowski
            kiteboar-@aol.com wrote: original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/kitesurf/?start=9605 ... safety line ... its an ... face ... wipika ... safety line ...
            Message 5 of 15 , Feb 1 5:33 PM
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              kiteboar-@... wrote:
              original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/kitesurf/?start=9605
              > In a message dated 2/1/00 8:06:49 AM Pacific Standard Time,
              > O1withwind@... writes:
              >
              > << > Anybody tried a
              > > 2-line foil with a reelbar?
              > >
              > Yup,
              > with no way to depower the kite for landing and no way to use a
              safety line
              > (wipika style won't work, just causes the kite to spin and power up)
              its an
              > all around bad idea. I saw some newbies get dragged down the beach
              face
              > first while trying to land with a setup like this. I'd recomend a
              wipika
              > and
              > a reel bar, then look at hung vu's site to see how to set up the
              safety line
              > for a reel bar. >>
              >
              >
              > Is there a way to depower a 2-line foil for landing with a NON-reel
              bar?
              >
              > Wouldn't the "Wipika style" (tube over one line w/leash at top of
              tube?) work
              > if it was long enough? (full kite-span) Isn't that what's required
              with a
              > non-reel bar?
              >
              > Tom
              As previously stated this doesn't work with a 2 line foil because half
              of the kite will always stay inflated no matter how much line you let
              out. The bridle points on a Wipika or Naish are at the wing tips, so
              if you put enough slack on one line the kite will depower. The bridles
              on a foil are not at the wing tip and they work with the internal
              pressure to give the kite its shape. Releasing one line will only
              depower half of the kite, the kite will go into a spin and slowly loose
              altitude until it crashes.

              You should be able fly a foil in three line mode off of a reel bar and
              apply a system similar to the Hung Vu tubing one used on a Wipika to
              the third line to depower the kite by dropping the bar.

              Has anyone tried 3 lines on a reel boom?
              It is amazing how well the kite ski system can launch from anywhere.
              Still even with out a real bar I can launch from some tight places, if
              the water is shallow all a need is enough space to lay out my kite.

              Fritz
            • David Raue
              There d be a risk of concentrating an enormous amount of force on just a few bridle lines. Normally the forces are pretty evenly distributed. Foils don t like
              Message 6 of 15 , Feb 2 1:45 AM
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                There'd be a risk of concentrating an enormous amount of force on just a
                few bridle lines. Normally the forces are pretty evenly distributed.
                Foils don't like that kind of treatment very much, at least mine don't -
                things like torn skin, pulled out attachment points, etc. But as a last
                resort, I guess the kite would stop!

                ----------
                > From: KiteBoard@...
                > To: kitesurf@egroups.com
                > Subject: [ksurf] Re: tough launch areas
                > Date: Tuesday, February 01, 2000 2:32 PM
                >
                > In a message dated 2/1/00 8:06:49 AM Pacific Standard Time,
                > O1withwind@... writes:
                >
                > << > Anybody tried a
                > > 2-line foil with a reelbar?
                > >
                > Yup,
                > with no way to depower the kite for landing and no way to use a safety
                line
                > (wipika style won't work, just causes the kite to spin and power up) its
                an
                > all around bad idea. I saw some newbies get dragged down the beach face

                > first while trying to land with a setup like this. I'd recomend a
                wipika
                > and
                > a reel bar, then look at hung vu's site to see how to set up the safety
                line
                > for a reel bar. >>
                >
                >
                > Is there a way to depower a 2-line foil for landing with a NON-reel bar?
                >
                > Wouldn't the "Wipika style" (tube over one line w/leash at top of tube?)
                work
                > if it was long enough? (full kite-span) Isn't that what's required with
                a
                > non-reel bar?
                >
                > Tom
                >
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              • Ian Young
                ... Not directly downwind, but I just park my kite down on the edge of the wind window - I usually snag it on the plastic bins on the beach but if I miss I
                Message 7 of 15 , Feb 2 5:58 AM
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                  > Is there a way to depower a 2-line foil for landing with a NON-reel bar?

                  Not directly downwind, but I just park my kite down on the edge of the wind
                  window - I usually snag it on the plastic bins on the beach but if I miss I just
                  keep tension on the bottom line as it rolls directly downwind - it doesn't power
                  up at all.

                  > Wouldn't the "Wipika style" (tube over one line w/leash at top of tube?) work
                  > if it was long enough?

                  The bridling on a foil makes it act like two single line kites sewn together -
                  worse if cross-bridled. If you release (or de-tension) one line, the other half
                  will continue to fly and spin around the released side of the wing at a great
                  rate of knots - you will get a reduction in power and the kite will spiral to the
                  deck and totally depower but it takes time (usually 3-4 rotations).

                  > (full kite-span) Isn't that what's required with a non-reel bar?

                  Makes no difference if it is a reel bar or not

                  Cheers,
                  Ian Young

                  WinDesigns Australia - Australia's First Kite Ski&Surf School
                  9 Oliver St, Scarborough, WA, AUSTRALIA, 6019
                  Phone: +61 8 9245 4603
                  Fax: +61 8 9245 4657
                  Mobile: 0414 716 812
                  Email: IanYoung@...
                  Webpage: http://www.iinet.net.au/~ianyoung/
                • O1withwind@aol.com
                  In a message dated 2/1/00 2:32:43 PM Eastern Standard Time, KiteBoard@aol.com ... Tom, with all the current soft kites on the market, using a two line bar is
                  Message 8 of 15 , Feb 2 7:43 AM
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                    In a message dated 2/1/00 2:32:43 PM Eastern Standard Time, KiteBoard@...
                    writes:

                    >
                    > Is there a way to depower a 2-line foil for landing with a NON-reel bar?
                    >
                    > Wouldn't the "Wipika style" (tube over one line w/leash at top of tube?)
                    > work
                    > if it was long enough? (full kite-span) Isn't that what's required with a
                    > non-reel bar?
                    >
                    > Tom
                    Tom,
                    with all the current soft kites on the market, using a two line bar is asking
                    for trouble. when you drop one line the kite will always go into a power
                    spin. It may depower a little bit but in higher winds it may even power up
                    more, and if your kite has cross bridleing like the mosiquto it will power up
                    big if you just drop one line. reguardless a foil in the air spining on one
                    line is imposible to controll and a danger to anyone around you on the beach.
                    This is why most of the foil makers recomend you fly their foils on no less
                    than three lines. The brakes coming to the center of the bar gives you a way
                    to depower and maintain control of the kite. Since the brake line needs only
                    be #150 line or so, it doesen't add much drag. GOD FORBID you use a reel bar
                    with one of these kites if it got away from you the kite will not depower and
                    the bar is heavy enough to keep the kite flying till the bar snags on
                    something ( like that spectators child ) then the kites powers up more and
                    continues to fly and beat itself on the ground till it gets trashed or
                    snagged on that other little kid building a sand castle. So, even if you
                    think "oh I can just let go" The kite will still be a danger to anyone
                    within 500meters or so.
                    If you're curious, find an EMPTY beach and try droping one line with your
                    kite high and near the center of power. don't forget the wrist leash on your
                    bar for the full getting dragged on your face effect.
                    FLY SAFE
                    PEACE&WIND
                    Josh Young
                  • David Raue
                    ... With all due respect I must disagree. The bridle is dimensioned to give the arch shape when both sides of the bridle are more-or-less pointing towards the
                    Message 9 of 15 , Feb 2 8:23 AM
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                      ----------
                      > From: Fritz Gramkowski <fritz@...>
                      > To: kitesurf@...
                      > Subject: [ksurf] Re: tough launch areas
                      > Date: Tuesday, February 01, 2000 8:33 PM
                      >
                      >>snip<<

                      > As previously stated this doesn't work with a 2 line foil because half
                      > of the kite will always stay inflated no matter how much line you let
                      > out. The bridle points on a Wipika or Naish are at the wing tips, so
                      > if you put enough slack on one line the kite will depower. The bridles
                      > on a foil are not at the wing tip and they work with the internal
                      > pressure to give the kite its shape. Releasing one line will only
                      > depower half of the kite, the kite will go into a spin and slowly loose
                      > altitude until it crashes.

                      With all due respect I must disagree. The bridle is dimensioned to give
                      the arch shape when both sides of the bridle are more-or-less pointing
                      towards the same point (the flier). Let go of one side and the geometry is
                      all upset. You might have a few cells still inflated, but the cells on
                      with slack bridle lines, i.e., those distant on either side would be unable
                      to inflate. I think you'd see a QUICK collapse/spiral into a tangled
                      mess. If stopping the kite in an emergency is the goal then this would
                      "work." But forget relaunching! I gotta believe this would also be hell
                      on the kite. But I avoid doing this stuff, tell me if my thinking is all
                      wrong, later,

                      Dave
                    • Fritz Gramkowski
                      david raue wrote: original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/kitesurf/?start=9643 ... half ... let ... so ... bridles ... loose
                      Message 10 of 15 , Feb 2 11:50 AM
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                        "david raue" <therave-@...> wrote:
                        original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/kitesurf/?start=9643
                        > ----------
                        > > From: Fritz Gramkowski <fritz@...>
                        > > To: kitesurf@...
                        > > Subject: [ksurf] Re: tough launch areas
                        > > Date: Tuesday, February 01, 2000 8:33 PM
                        > >
                        > >>snip<<
                        >
                        > > As previously stated this doesn't work with a 2 line foil because
                        half
                        > > of the kite will always stay inflated no matter how much line you
                        let
                        > > out. The bridle points on a Wipika or Naish are at the wing tips,
                        so
                        > > if you put enough slack on one line the kite will depower. The
                        bridles
                        > > on a foil are not at the wing tip and they work with the internal
                        > > pressure to give the kite its shape. Releasing one line will only
                        > > depower half of the kite, the kite will go into a spin and slowly
                        loose
                        > > altitude until it crashes.
                        >
                        > With all due respect I must disagree. The bridle is dimensioned to
                        give
                        > the arch shape when both sides of the bridle are more-or-less pointing
                        > towards the same point (the flier). Let go of one side and the
                        geometry is
                        > all upset. You might have a few cells still inflated, but the cells
                        on
                        > with slack bridle lines, i.e., those distant on either side would be
                        unable
                        > to inflate. I think you'd see a QUICK collapse/spiral into a tangled
                        > mess. If stopping the kite in an emergency is the goal then this
                        would
                        > "work." But forget relaunching! I gotta believe this would also be
                        hell
                        > on the kite. But I avoid doing this stuff, tell me if my thinking is
                        all
                        > wrong, later,
                        >
                        > Dave
                        >
                        How much a kite depowers depends on the bridles. I have experience
                        letting go of one line using cross bridled peels (buggying over powered
                        in gusty off shore winds). Because it is extensively cross bridled a
                        Peel stays about 3/4 inflated and goes into a spin and slowly
                        descends. Most current foils do not have as much cross bridling as a
                        Peel but will exhibit similar behavior, one half collapses and the
                        other stays pretty much inflated and partially powered up. The kite
                        goes into a spin and eventually crashes. I have seen this when I have
                        broken a line, the kite partially collapses (less if its a valved foil)
                        and goes into a spin, it depoweres quit a bit but not completely. You
                        end up with a mess, not too bad to sort out on land but I wouldn't want
                        to try and do it on the water. I hope no one thought I was
                        recommending this method as I don't think it will work on the water, I
                        recommended using a third line to de-power the kite in the next
                        paragraph of the origonal post.

                        For foils the best way to collaspe and depower is to use the brakes,
                        for four lines pull in both or use a third line attached to both brake
                        lines on the kite, if you slacken the power lines and keep tension on
                        the brake lines the kite will collaspe, depower, and not should not be
                        too hard to relaunch.

                        Fritz
                      • KiteBoard@aol.com
                        In a message dated 2/1/00 5:37:05 PM Pacific Standard Time, fritz@kepnet.com writes:
                        Message 11 of 15 , Feb 2 6:19 PM
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                          In a message dated 2/1/00 5:37:05 PM Pacific Standard Time, fritz@...
                          writes:

                          << As previously stated this doesn't work with a 2 line foil because half
                          of the kite will always stay inflated no matter how much line you let
                          out. >>

                          Somebody else mentioned it, since I'd forgotten about those pesky bridles,
                          although theraves@... writes:
                          << But as a last resort, I guess the kite would stop! ...If stopping the kite
                          in an emergency is the goal then this would "work.">>

                          My real point was that a two-line foil shouldn't work any worse with a
                          reelbar, than with a plain bar.

                          Tom
                        • KiteBoard@aol.com
                          In a message dated 2/2/00 5:56:29 AM Pacific Standard Time, ianyoung@iinet.net.au writes: That s all I
                          Message 12 of 15 , Feb 2 6:19 PM
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                            In a message dated 2/2/00 5:56:29 AM Pacific Standard Time,
                            ianyoung@... writes:

                            << Makes no difference if it is a reel bar or not >>

                            That's all I really meant.

                            Tom
                          • KiteBoard@aol.com
                            In a message dated 2/2/00 7:44:09 AM Pacific Standard Time, O1withwind@aol.com writes:
                            Message 13 of 15 , Feb 2 6:27 PM
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                              In a message dated 2/2/00 7:44:09 AM Pacific Standard Time,
                              O1withwind@... writes:

                              << with all the current soft kites on the market, using a two line bar is
                              asking
                              for trouble. >>

                              Again, that's all I meant. You seemed to be blaming the reel (possibly my
                              misinterpretation), when in fact the problem is any bar with a two-line foil.

                              << GOD FORBID you use a reel bar
                              with one of these kites if it got away from you >>

                              Well who wouldn't even have a leash on his kite?

                              << the kite will not depower and
                              the bar is heavy enough to keep the kite flying till the bar snags on
                              something ( like that spectators child ) then the kites powers up more and
                              continues to fly and beat itself on the ground till it gets trashed or
                              snagged on that other little kid building a sand castle. So, even if you
                              think "oh I can just let go" The kite will still be a danger to anyone
                              within 500meters or so. >>

                              Possibly even more

                              << If you're curious, find an EMPTY beach and try droping one line with your
                              kite high and near the center of power. don't forget the wrist leash on
                              your
                              bar for the full getting dragged on your face effect. >>

                              If I was stupid enough to try that (which I'm not), I'd do it where I do all
                              similar (though usually somewhat less foolish) testing, in offshore winds in
                              the bay. That way the worst case scenario is a body drag, followed by
                              releasing the leash from my wrist, then kite flying across open water while I
                              swim a short distance to shore.

                              Tom
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