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[ksurf] Re: tough launch areas

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  • Steve
    Tough launch areas like you describe probably call for a reel bar. Letting out line while in the water without a reel bar is quite difficult even with an
    Message 1 of 15 , Jan 31, 2000
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      Tough launch areas like you describe probably call for a reel bar. Letting
      out line while in the water without a reel bar is quite difficult even with
      an inflatable, impossible with a C Quad, since tangles invariably occur and
      the kite either sinks or flaps around.
      You say that you have been using a C Quad on snow and ice - me too - but it
      seems that even with added flotation that that is the only type of water
      that a C Quad will launch from.
      I would say - if there is no beach and trees to the water - that a reel bar
      or an assistant to hold the kite would be the ways to go.

      Steve Swartz
      Carson City, Nevada USA
      steverite@...

      -----Original Message-----
      From: Matt Bartell <mbartell@...>
      To: kitesurf@egroups.com <kitesurf@egroups.com>
      Date: Monday, January 31, 2000 9:59 AM
      Subject: [ksurf] tough launch areas


      >Hello everyone:
      >
      >First let me say that I am new to kitesurfing, in fact I can not even get
      on
      >the water until the ice melts in march-April.
      >
      >I have a question that I have not yet seen addressed buy this group. I will
      >be kitesurfing on inland lakes. Almost all of the nearby lakes are
      >surrounded by trees that will make launching a kite on land and than flying
      >it to the water impossible. I have no interest in snagging a $1000 kite on
      a
      >tree trying to get it to the water. In fact I think that even just flying
      it
      >by the brindles may be risky. The best(?) idea that I have so far, is to
      use
      >a c-quad with float tubes, and walk out into the shallow water to launch
      it.
      >This in fact may be a benefit to the flat design of the c-quad, because it
      >will not just "auto launch" as I walk the lines tight.
      >
      >My only experience so far is with a c-quad and a snowboard on the snowy
      >frozen lake; so I just walk out and launch from the snow.
      >
      >I would be happy to buy true water launch-able kite, but I need a
      reasonable
      >answer to this concern first. I am worried about an inflatable just blowing
      >away, and a ram-air getting soaked before it is inflated. I can not count
      on
      >having someone available to assist me with launching an inflatable or any
      >other kite.
      >
      >Any advise would be greatly appreciated.
      >
      >Thanks,
      >
      >Matt
      >
      >
      >
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    • KiteBoard@aol.com
      When considering KiteSki, check Banshee. Either will stay wherever you land them (until you pick up the leading edge) hence their reelbar need. I ve used
      Message 2 of 15 , Jan 31, 2000
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        When considering KiteSki, check Banshee. Either will stay wherever you land
        them (until you pick up the leading edge) hence their reelbar need. I've
        used 2-line inflatables with a reelbar which works fine. Anybody tried a
        2-line foil with a reelbar?

        Tom

        In a message dated 1/31/00 12:09:38 PM Pacific Standard Time,
        theraves@... writes:

        << How about the Kiteski system? From what I understand it won't fly away
        from you till you want it to, is designed for reeling in/out, and
        relaunches well from water. Give Cory a call to discuss. Your launch
        situation sounds to me like an accident waiting to happen with the
        usual foils or inflatables. >>
      • O1withwind@aol.com
        In a message dated 1/31/00 7:31:40 PM Eastern Standard Time, ... Yup, with no way to depower the kite for landing and no way to use a safety line (wipika style
        Message 3 of 15 , Feb 1, 2000
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          In a message dated 1/31/00 7:31:40 PM Eastern Standard Time,
          KiteBoard@... writes:

          > Anybody tried a
          > 2-line foil with a reelbar?
          >
          Yup,
          with no way to depower the kite for landing and no way to use a safety line
          (wipika style won't work, just causes the kite to spin and power up) its an
          all around bad idea. I saw some newbies get dragged down the beach face
          first while trying to land with a setup like this. I'd recomend a wipika and
          a reel bar, then look at hung vu's site to see how to set up the safety line
          for a reel bar.
          FLY SAFE
          Josh Young
        • KiteBoard@aol.com
          In a message dated 2/1/00 8:06:49 AM Pacific Standard Time, O1withwind@aol.com writes: Anybody tried a ... Yup, with no way to depower the kite for
          Message 4 of 15 , Feb 1, 2000
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            In a message dated 2/1/00 8:06:49 AM Pacific Standard Time,
            O1withwind@... writes:

            << > Anybody tried a
            > 2-line foil with a reelbar?
            >
            Yup,
            with no way to depower the kite for landing and no way to use a safety line
            (wipika style won't work, just causes the kite to spin and power up) its an
            all around bad idea. I saw some newbies get dragged down the beach face
            first while trying to land with a setup like this. I'd recomend a wipika
            and
            a reel bar, then look at hung vu's site to see how to set up the safety line
            for a reel bar. >>


            Is there a way to depower a 2-line foil for landing with a NON-reel bar?

            Wouldn't the "Wipika style" (tube over one line w/leash at top of tube?) work
            if it was long enough? (full kite-span) Isn't that what's required with a
            non-reel bar?

            Tom
          • Steve Shugart
            kiteboar-@aol.com wrote: original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/kitesurf/?start=9582 ... you land ... I ve ... tried a ... I tried my 5.0 ATK in the
            Message 5 of 15 , Feb 1, 2000
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              kiteboar-@... wrote:
              original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/kitesurf/?start=9582
              > When considering KiteSki, check Banshee. Either will stay wherever
              you land
              > them (until you pick up the leading edge) hence their reelbar need.
              I've
              > used 2-line inflatables with a reelbar which works fine. Anybody
              tried a
              > 2-line foil with a reelbar?
              >
              > Tom
              >
              >
              I tried my 5.0 ATK in the park with my reel bar 2 line. It work ok, but
              if the lines don't wind up exactly the same, one can become longer than
              the other, if the kite is not inflated this can make it harder to steer.

              I also tried the reel in 4 line mode, I need to add some deslacking
              bungee
              on the brakes otherwise it has a tendancy to foul up the lines in the
              reel.

              Finally decided to brave the cold and flew the ATK 5.0 in really gusty
              conditions, got dragged into the lake, the kite was relaunchable and
              still
              had air in it after 7 or 8 minutes of letting it drag me to the other
              shore.


              Steve
            • Frank Kubin
              I usually launch from a leeward shore with heavy cover. Normally I weigh the Wipika down on shore, wade out to extend the lines and then walk out in the
              Message 6 of 15 , Feb 1, 2000
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                I usually launch from a leeward shore with heavy cover. Normally I weigh the
                Wipika down on shore, wade out to extend the lines and then walk out in the
                shallows to a launchable area. The kite is dragged all over the place and
                why I am usually using the inflatable. Getting out to deeper water is more
                of a challenge depending on wind direction and strength.
                As I get my butt to better launch sites I'll make more use of my F-one and
                other foils.

                > -----Original Message-----
                > From: Matt Bartell [mailto:mbartell@...]
                > Sent: Monday, January 31, 2000 12:55 PM
                > To: kitesurf@egroups.com
                > Subject: [ksurf] tough launch areas
                >
                >
                > Hello everyone:
                >
                > First let me say that I am new to kitesurfing, in fact I can
                > not even get on
                > the water until the ice melts in march-April.
                >
                > I have a question that I have not yet seen addressed buy this
                > group. I will
                > be kitesurfing on inland lakes. Almost all of the nearby lakes are
                > surrounded by trees that will make launching a kite on land
                > and than flying
                > it to the water impossible. I have no interest in snagging a
                > $1000 kite on a
                > tree trying to get it to the water. In fact I think that even
                > just flying it
                > by the brindles may be risky. The best(?) idea that I have so
                > far, is to use
                > a c-quad with float tubes, and walk out into the shallow
                > water to launch it.
                > This in fact may be a benefit to the flat design of the
                > c-quad, because it
                > will not just "auto launch" as I walk the lines tight.
                >
                > My only experience so far is with a c-quad and a snowboard on
                > the snowy
                > frozen lake; so I just walk out and launch from the snow.
                >
                > I would be happy to buy true water launch-able kite, but I
                > need a reasonable
                > answer to this concern first. I am worried about an
                > inflatable just blowing
                > away, and a ram-air getting soaked before it is inflated. I
                > can not count on
                > having someone available to assist me with launching an
                > inflatable or any
                > other kite.
                >
                > Any advise would be greatly appreciated.
                >
                > Thanks,
                >
                > Matt
                >
                >
                >
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              • Fritz Gramkowski
                kiteboar-@aol.com wrote: original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/kitesurf/?start=9605 ... safety line ... its an ... face ... wipika ... safety line ...
                Message 7 of 15 , Feb 1, 2000
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                  kiteboar-@... wrote:
                  original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/kitesurf/?start=9605
                  > In a message dated 2/1/00 8:06:49 AM Pacific Standard Time,
                  > O1withwind@... writes:
                  >
                  > << > Anybody tried a
                  > > 2-line foil with a reelbar?
                  > >
                  > Yup,
                  > with no way to depower the kite for landing and no way to use a
                  safety line
                  > (wipika style won't work, just causes the kite to spin and power up)
                  its an
                  > all around bad idea. I saw some newbies get dragged down the beach
                  face
                  > first while trying to land with a setup like this. I'd recomend a
                  wipika
                  > and
                  > a reel bar, then look at hung vu's site to see how to set up the
                  safety line
                  > for a reel bar. >>
                  >
                  >
                  > Is there a way to depower a 2-line foil for landing with a NON-reel
                  bar?
                  >
                  > Wouldn't the "Wipika style" (tube over one line w/leash at top of
                  tube?) work
                  > if it was long enough? (full kite-span) Isn't that what's required
                  with a
                  > non-reel bar?
                  >
                  > Tom
                  As previously stated this doesn't work with a 2 line foil because half
                  of the kite will always stay inflated no matter how much line you let
                  out. The bridle points on a Wipika or Naish are at the wing tips, so
                  if you put enough slack on one line the kite will depower. The bridles
                  on a foil are not at the wing tip and they work with the internal
                  pressure to give the kite its shape. Releasing one line will only
                  depower half of the kite, the kite will go into a spin and slowly loose
                  altitude until it crashes.

                  You should be able fly a foil in three line mode off of a reel bar and
                  apply a system similar to the Hung Vu tubing one used on a Wipika to
                  the third line to depower the kite by dropping the bar.

                  Has anyone tried 3 lines on a reel boom?
                  It is amazing how well the kite ski system can launch from anywhere.
                  Still even with out a real bar I can launch from some tight places, if
                  the water is shallow all a need is enough space to lay out my kite.

                  Fritz
                • David Raue
                  There d be a risk of concentrating an enormous amount of force on just a few bridle lines. Normally the forces are pretty evenly distributed. Foils don t like
                  Message 8 of 15 , Feb 2, 2000
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                    There'd be a risk of concentrating an enormous amount of force on just a
                    few bridle lines. Normally the forces are pretty evenly distributed.
                    Foils don't like that kind of treatment very much, at least mine don't -
                    things like torn skin, pulled out attachment points, etc. But as a last
                    resort, I guess the kite would stop!

                    ----------
                    > From: KiteBoard@...
                    > To: kitesurf@egroups.com
                    > Subject: [ksurf] Re: tough launch areas
                    > Date: Tuesday, February 01, 2000 2:32 PM
                    >
                    > In a message dated 2/1/00 8:06:49 AM Pacific Standard Time,
                    > O1withwind@... writes:
                    >
                    > << > Anybody tried a
                    > > 2-line foil with a reelbar?
                    > >
                    > Yup,
                    > with no way to depower the kite for landing and no way to use a safety
                    line
                    > (wipika style won't work, just causes the kite to spin and power up) its
                    an
                    > all around bad idea. I saw some newbies get dragged down the beach face

                    > first while trying to land with a setup like this. I'd recomend a
                    wipika
                    > and
                    > a reel bar, then look at hung vu's site to see how to set up the safety
                    line
                    > for a reel bar. >>
                    >
                    >
                    > Is there a way to depower a 2-line foil for landing with a NON-reel bar?
                    >
                    > Wouldn't the "Wipika style" (tube over one line w/leash at top of tube?)
                    work
                    > if it was long enough? (full kite-span) Isn't that what's required with
                    a
                    > non-reel bar?
                    >
                    > Tom
                    >
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                  • Ian Young
                    ... Not directly downwind, but I just park my kite down on the edge of the wind window - I usually snag it on the plastic bins on the beach but if I miss I
                    Message 9 of 15 , Feb 2, 2000
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                      > Is there a way to depower a 2-line foil for landing with a NON-reel bar?

                      Not directly downwind, but I just park my kite down on the edge of the wind
                      window - I usually snag it on the plastic bins on the beach but if I miss I just
                      keep tension on the bottom line as it rolls directly downwind - it doesn't power
                      up at all.

                      > Wouldn't the "Wipika style" (tube over one line w/leash at top of tube?) work
                      > if it was long enough?

                      The bridling on a foil makes it act like two single line kites sewn together -
                      worse if cross-bridled. If you release (or de-tension) one line, the other half
                      will continue to fly and spin around the released side of the wing at a great
                      rate of knots - you will get a reduction in power and the kite will spiral to the
                      deck and totally depower but it takes time (usually 3-4 rotations).

                      > (full kite-span) Isn't that what's required with a non-reel bar?

                      Makes no difference if it is a reel bar or not

                      Cheers,
                      Ian Young

                      WinDesigns Australia - Australia's First Kite Ski&Surf School
                      9 Oliver St, Scarborough, WA, AUSTRALIA, 6019
                      Phone: +61 8 9245 4603
                      Fax: +61 8 9245 4657
                      Mobile: 0414 716 812
                      Email: IanYoung@...
                      Webpage: http://www.iinet.net.au/~ianyoung/
                    • O1withwind@aol.com
                      In a message dated 2/1/00 2:32:43 PM Eastern Standard Time, KiteBoard@aol.com ... Tom, with all the current soft kites on the market, using a two line bar is
                      Message 10 of 15 , Feb 2, 2000
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                        In a message dated 2/1/00 2:32:43 PM Eastern Standard Time, KiteBoard@...
                        writes:

                        >
                        > Is there a way to depower a 2-line foil for landing with a NON-reel bar?
                        >
                        > Wouldn't the "Wipika style" (tube over one line w/leash at top of tube?)
                        > work
                        > if it was long enough? (full kite-span) Isn't that what's required with a
                        > non-reel bar?
                        >
                        > Tom
                        Tom,
                        with all the current soft kites on the market, using a two line bar is asking
                        for trouble. when you drop one line the kite will always go into a power
                        spin. It may depower a little bit but in higher winds it may even power up
                        more, and if your kite has cross bridleing like the mosiquto it will power up
                        big if you just drop one line. reguardless a foil in the air spining on one
                        line is imposible to controll and a danger to anyone around you on the beach.
                        This is why most of the foil makers recomend you fly their foils on no less
                        than three lines. The brakes coming to the center of the bar gives you a way
                        to depower and maintain control of the kite. Since the brake line needs only
                        be #150 line or so, it doesen't add much drag. GOD FORBID you use a reel bar
                        with one of these kites if it got away from you the kite will not depower and
                        the bar is heavy enough to keep the kite flying till the bar snags on
                        something ( like that spectators child ) then the kites powers up more and
                        continues to fly and beat itself on the ground till it gets trashed or
                        snagged on that other little kid building a sand castle. So, even if you
                        think "oh I can just let go" The kite will still be a danger to anyone
                        within 500meters or so.
                        If you're curious, find an EMPTY beach and try droping one line with your
                        kite high and near the center of power. don't forget the wrist leash on your
                        bar for the full getting dragged on your face effect.
                        FLY SAFE
                        PEACE&WIND
                        Josh Young
                      • David Raue
                        ... With all due respect I must disagree. The bridle is dimensioned to give the arch shape when both sides of the bridle are more-or-less pointing towards the
                        Message 11 of 15 , Feb 2, 2000
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                          ----------
                          > From: Fritz Gramkowski <fritz@...>
                          > To: kitesurf@...
                          > Subject: [ksurf] Re: tough launch areas
                          > Date: Tuesday, February 01, 2000 8:33 PM
                          >
                          >>snip<<

                          > As previously stated this doesn't work with a 2 line foil because half
                          > of the kite will always stay inflated no matter how much line you let
                          > out. The bridle points on a Wipika or Naish are at the wing tips, so
                          > if you put enough slack on one line the kite will depower. The bridles
                          > on a foil are not at the wing tip and they work with the internal
                          > pressure to give the kite its shape. Releasing one line will only
                          > depower half of the kite, the kite will go into a spin and slowly loose
                          > altitude until it crashes.

                          With all due respect I must disagree. The bridle is dimensioned to give
                          the arch shape when both sides of the bridle are more-or-less pointing
                          towards the same point (the flier). Let go of one side and the geometry is
                          all upset. You might have a few cells still inflated, but the cells on
                          with slack bridle lines, i.e., those distant on either side would be unable
                          to inflate. I think you'd see a QUICK collapse/spiral into a tangled
                          mess. If stopping the kite in an emergency is the goal then this would
                          "work." But forget relaunching! I gotta believe this would also be hell
                          on the kite. But I avoid doing this stuff, tell me if my thinking is all
                          wrong, later,

                          Dave
                        • Fritz Gramkowski
                          david raue wrote: original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/kitesurf/?start=9643 ... half ... let ... so ... bridles ... loose
                          Message 12 of 15 , Feb 2, 2000
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                            "david raue" <therave-@...> wrote:
                            original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/kitesurf/?start=9643
                            > ----------
                            > > From: Fritz Gramkowski <fritz@...>
                            > > To: kitesurf@...
                            > > Subject: [ksurf] Re: tough launch areas
                            > > Date: Tuesday, February 01, 2000 8:33 PM
                            > >
                            > >>snip<<
                            >
                            > > As previously stated this doesn't work with a 2 line foil because
                            half
                            > > of the kite will always stay inflated no matter how much line you
                            let
                            > > out. The bridle points on a Wipika or Naish are at the wing tips,
                            so
                            > > if you put enough slack on one line the kite will depower. The
                            bridles
                            > > on a foil are not at the wing tip and they work with the internal
                            > > pressure to give the kite its shape. Releasing one line will only
                            > > depower half of the kite, the kite will go into a spin and slowly
                            loose
                            > > altitude until it crashes.
                            >
                            > With all due respect I must disagree. The bridle is dimensioned to
                            give
                            > the arch shape when both sides of the bridle are more-or-less pointing
                            > towards the same point (the flier). Let go of one side and the
                            geometry is
                            > all upset. You might have a few cells still inflated, but the cells
                            on
                            > with slack bridle lines, i.e., those distant on either side would be
                            unable
                            > to inflate. I think you'd see a QUICK collapse/spiral into a tangled
                            > mess. If stopping the kite in an emergency is the goal then this
                            would
                            > "work." But forget relaunching! I gotta believe this would also be
                            hell
                            > on the kite. But I avoid doing this stuff, tell me if my thinking is
                            all
                            > wrong, later,
                            >
                            > Dave
                            >
                            How much a kite depowers depends on the bridles. I have experience
                            letting go of one line using cross bridled peels (buggying over powered
                            in gusty off shore winds). Because it is extensively cross bridled a
                            Peel stays about 3/4 inflated and goes into a spin and slowly
                            descends. Most current foils do not have as much cross bridling as a
                            Peel but will exhibit similar behavior, one half collapses and the
                            other stays pretty much inflated and partially powered up. The kite
                            goes into a spin and eventually crashes. I have seen this when I have
                            broken a line, the kite partially collapses (less if its a valved foil)
                            and goes into a spin, it depoweres quit a bit but not completely. You
                            end up with a mess, not too bad to sort out on land but I wouldn't want
                            to try and do it on the water. I hope no one thought I was
                            recommending this method as I don't think it will work on the water, I
                            recommended using a third line to de-power the kite in the next
                            paragraph of the origonal post.

                            For foils the best way to collaspe and depower is to use the brakes,
                            for four lines pull in both or use a third line attached to both brake
                            lines on the kite, if you slacken the power lines and keep tension on
                            the brake lines the kite will collaspe, depower, and not should not be
                            too hard to relaunch.

                            Fritz
                          • KiteBoard@aol.com
                            In a message dated 2/1/00 5:37:05 PM Pacific Standard Time, fritz@kepnet.com writes:
                            Message 13 of 15 , Feb 2, 2000
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                              In a message dated 2/1/00 5:37:05 PM Pacific Standard Time, fritz@...
                              writes:

                              << As previously stated this doesn't work with a 2 line foil because half
                              of the kite will always stay inflated no matter how much line you let
                              out. >>

                              Somebody else mentioned it, since I'd forgotten about those pesky bridles,
                              although theraves@... writes:
                              << But as a last resort, I guess the kite would stop! ...If stopping the kite
                              in an emergency is the goal then this would "work.">>

                              My real point was that a two-line foil shouldn't work any worse with a
                              reelbar, than with a plain bar.

                              Tom
                            • KiteBoard@aol.com
                              In a message dated 2/2/00 5:56:29 AM Pacific Standard Time, ianyoung@iinet.net.au writes: That s all I
                              Message 14 of 15 , Feb 2, 2000
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                                In a message dated 2/2/00 5:56:29 AM Pacific Standard Time,
                                ianyoung@... writes:

                                << Makes no difference if it is a reel bar or not >>

                                That's all I really meant.

                                Tom
                              • KiteBoard@aol.com
                                In a message dated 2/2/00 7:44:09 AM Pacific Standard Time, O1withwind@aol.com writes:
                                Message 15 of 15 , Feb 2, 2000
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                                  In a message dated 2/2/00 7:44:09 AM Pacific Standard Time,
                                  O1withwind@... writes:

                                  << with all the current soft kites on the market, using a two line bar is
                                  asking
                                  for trouble. >>

                                  Again, that's all I meant. You seemed to be blaming the reel (possibly my
                                  misinterpretation), when in fact the problem is any bar with a two-line foil.

                                  << GOD FORBID you use a reel bar
                                  with one of these kites if it got away from you >>

                                  Well who wouldn't even have a leash on his kite?

                                  << the kite will not depower and
                                  the bar is heavy enough to keep the kite flying till the bar snags on
                                  something ( like that spectators child ) then the kites powers up more and
                                  continues to fly and beat itself on the ground till it gets trashed or
                                  snagged on that other little kid building a sand castle. So, even if you
                                  think "oh I can just let go" The kite will still be a danger to anyone
                                  within 500meters or so. >>

                                  Possibly even more

                                  << If you're curious, find an EMPTY beach and try droping one line with your
                                  kite high and near the center of power. don't forget the wrist leash on
                                  your
                                  bar for the full getting dragged on your face effect. >>

                                  If I was stupid enough to try that (which I'm not), I'd do it where I do all
                                  similar (though usually somewhat less foolish) testing, in offshore winds in
                                  the bay. That way the worst case scenario is a body drag, followed by
                                  releasing the leash from my wrist, then kite flying across open water while I
                                  swim a short distance to shore.

                                  Tom
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