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[ksurf] Re: Deadman Releases

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  • Steve
    Very interested in hearing/seeing plans for Deadman Releases. Anybody have plans/ideas/ web addresses to put forth? Started a new thread to help organize
    Message 1 of 12 , Dec 2, 1999
      Very interested in hearing/seeing plans for Deadman Releases. Anybody have
      plans/ideas/ web addresses to put forth? Started a new thread to help
      organize the responses.

      Steve Swartz
      Carson City, Nevada USA
      steverite@...


      __________________________________________
      NetZero - Defenders of the Free World
      Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at
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    • Steven Nenzel
      How about we get a little broader in our thinking and work from the ground up. Is there any benefit to designing a new harness system around kitesurfing that
      Message 2 of 12 , Dec 2, 1999
        How about we get a little broader in our thinking and work from the ground
        up. Is there any benefit to designing a new harness system around
        kitesurfing that may include a quick release system. Maybe we should be
        thinking of a total redesign rather than adapting windsurfing and traction
        kiting equipment to kitesurfing. How about a harness with a swivel hook(s)
        that incorporate handles/bars into their design. I'm still a newbie to the
        sport but I think there are now enough kitesurfers out there to support a
        new type of harness built solely for Kitesurfing.

        -----Original Message-----

        Very interested in hearing/seeing plans for Deadman Releases. Anybody have
        plans/ideas/ web addresses to put forth? Started a new thread to help
        organize the responses.

        Steve Swartz
        Carson City, Nevada USA
        steverite@...


        __________________________________________
        NetZero - Defenders of the Free World
        Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at
        http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html

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      • Ian Young
        Just trying to think outside the square a little ... In hang gliding when we tow up behind a vehicle or a motorised aircraft we use a weak link that fails
        Message 3 of 12 , Dec 2, 1999
          Just trying to think outside the square a little ...

          In hang gliding when we tow up behind a vehicle or a motorised aircraft we use a
          "weak link" that fails when the line pressure exceeds 1.5G if you have a
          lock-out (when the glider turns away from the tow source and can either dive
          into the deck or break the airframe).

          Perhaps a similar weak link built into the harness line that will break when a
          kite is pulling a body underwater, which I assume may be greater than the shock
          loading on the harness line when jumping etc when remaining hooked in.

          I'm personally not real keen to do the field testing but if anyone else does -
          please let us all know how it goes!

          Cheers,
          Ian Young

          WinDesigns Australia - Australia's First Kite Ski&Surf School
          9 Oliver St, Scarborough, WA, AUSTRALIA, 6019
          Phone: +61 8 9245 4603
          Fax: +61 8 9245 4657
          Mobile: 0414 716 812
          Email: IanYoung@...
          Webpage: http://www.iinet.net.au/~ianyoung/
        • greg.walsh@dhs.vic.gov.au
          You could achieve a similar effect by having a leash attached to the brake lines (or wherever) with a length of bungy in the line. You then run a second line
          Message 4 of 12 , Dec 2, 1999
            You could achieve a similar effect by having a leash attached to the
            brake lines (or wherever) with a length of bungy in the line. You then
            run a second line from the pilot end of the bungy to a release system.
            A normal pull would pull on the breaks. A stringer pull would stretch
            the bungy and allow the line release to activate.

            This would not work for hooked in submarine rides because there is
            nothing to pull on the leash. Similarly, weak links break at different
            pressures depending on whether you have a shock load or a steady pull.
            I think you would have a hard time setting the link to differentiate
            between a hard landing and a submarine ride.

            ian young <ianyoun-@...> wrote:
            original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/kitesurf/?start=7579
            > Just trying to think outside the square a little ...
            >
            > In hang gliding when we tow up behind a vehicle or a motorised
            aircraft we use a
            > "weak link" that fails when the line pressure exceeds 1.5G if you
            have a
            > lock-out (when the glider turns away from the tow source and can
            either dive
            > into the deck or break the airframe).
            >
            > Perhaps a similar weak link built into the harness line that will
            break when a
            > kite is pulling a body underwater, which I assume may be greater than
            the shock
            > loading on the harness line when jumping etc when remaining hooked in.
            >
            > I'm personally not real keen to do the field testing but if anyone
            else does -
            > please let us all know how it goes!
            >
            > Cheers,
            > Ian Young
            >
            > WinDesigns Australia - Australia's First Kite Ski&Surf School
            > 9 Oliver St, Scarborough, WA, AUSTRALIA, 6019
            > Phone: +61 8 9245 4603
            > Fax: +61 8 9245 4657
            > Mobile: 0414 716 812
            > Email: IanYoung@...
            > Webpage: http://www.iinet.net.au/~ianyoung/
            >
            >
          • David Phillips
            Steve Nenzel talks about Kiteboarding-specific harnesses that would include a deadman release. I think that s a cool idea, and even before we have such
            Message 5 of 12 , Dec 3, 1999

              Steve Nenzel talks about Kiteboarding-specific harnesses that would include a deadman release.  I think that's a cool idea, and even before we have such harnesses a similar effect could be achieved with current harnesses.  Here's how for quad handles.

              The "emergency" line is the about 6 foot line that Michel described earlier.  Each end attaches to a brake line some distance up.  Now bring this line down and attach it securely to the harness.  This line will be a little bit longer that then "harness" line that runs between handles.  The deadman "switch" is in both handles, and Both handles must be released for it to activate.  When activated it merely releases the harness line from one end or the other (or the middle?!).  The handles then are free to fly away from you, but the emergency line securely attached to your harness immediately depowers the kite.  Haul in on the emergency line and you easily retrieve the handles.

              What do you think?
                --David
              ----------
              David M. Phillips  dphillips@...
              RFD & Associates  (512) 347-9411 x 128
              Austin, Texas
            • Antonio Lage
              ... securely attached to your harness immediately depowers the kite. Haul in on the emergency line and you easily retrieve the handles. What if you need to
              Message 6 of 12 , Dec 3, 1999
                At 15:56 03-12-99 GMT, you wrote:
                >The handles then are free to fly away from you, but the emergency line
                securely attached to >your harness immediately depowers the kite. Haul in
                on the emergency line and you easily >retrieve the handles.

                What if you need to completely separete yourself from the kite, if it falls
                in the path of a boat or will hit power lines? There is a need to quicklly
                release the emergency line from your harness, don't you think? I'm
                experimenting a similar system but with the lines going to my wrist, where
                I can grab a velcro tab and free myself with just one motion. I'm also
                experimenting diferent velcro closures, because in the "boat running"
                situation, it's better to have the velcro open at a certain tension than to
                have your arm pulled from the sholder...

                Antonio
              • David Phillips
                Perhaps this is where the idea of a weak link could be combined. Suppose that the emergency brake line -- a line attached up a ways on both brake lines and
                Message 7 of 12 , Dec 5, 1999

                  Perhaps this is where the idea of a weak link could be combined.  Suppose that the "emergency brake line"  -- a line attached up a ways on both brake lines and then fastened to your harness/pfd -- is fastened with a weak-link?  Or, for that matter, it could be fastened with a velcro loop that should be as easy if not easier to undo that a wrist loop.

                  I'm thinking that a weak-link could be strong enough to depower the kite, yet break under a pull strong enough to damage the kite or its operator.

                  Or use both!  A velcro loop on the weak-link to give the operator manual, direct control, and the weak-link to give fail-safe backup.
                    --David
                  ----------
                  David M. Phillips  dphillips@...
                  RFD & Associates  (512) 347-9411 x 128
                  Austin, Texas



                  Antonio Lage <alage@...>

                  12/03/99 05:25 PM
                  Please respond to kitesurf

                         
                          To:        kitesurf@egroups.com
                          cc:        
                          Subject:        [ksurf] Re: Deadman Releases


                  <snip>
                  What if you need to completely separate yourself from the kite, if it falls
                  in the path of a boat or will hit power lines?

                  <snip>
                • Antonio Lage
                  ... direct control, and the weak-link to give fail-safe backup. ... Hi David, I think this is the way to go. If my experience with velcro in the wrist don t
                  Message 8 of 12 , Dec 5, 1999
                    At 18:56 05-12-99 GMT, you wrote:
                    >Or use both! A velcro loop on the weak-link to give the operator manual,
                    direct control, >and the weak-link to give fail-safe backup.
                    > --David

                    Hi David,
                    I think this is the way to go. If my experience with velcro in the wrist
                    don't feel confortable I will try your tip.

                    I saw your jpeg, and I have a question (this stupid brazilian!)...For what
                    I understand your "magic" system would release something to depower the
                    kite every time you open your hands to let go the handles by releasing the
                    "trigger". But what if you need to hook-in and have both hands free? (to
                    position the board or untangle the leash or free your fins of a plastic bag
                    or weeds). This "magic" system should let the user have both hands free
                    sometimes. Maybe the harness line and trigger could work together - when
                    you are hooked-in and there is tension on the harness line something would
                    lock the trigger. But then it would not be a true "deadman" release anymore.

                    Antonio

                    P.S. Like you I made a sketch of the simple system I built (but did not use
                    it yet, the winds here are not colaborating). The gif image is at:

                    http://www.flysurfing.com.br/extras/quickrel.gif
                  • Antonio Lage
                    Hi, I have a question... I am tunning my new 4 line bar (simple bar with handles attached to ends). Initially a set the brake lines in the longest setting. By
                    Message 9 of 12 , Dec 5, 1999
                      Hi,

                      I have a question...
                      I am tunning my new 4 line bar (simple bar with handles attached to ends).
                      Initially a set the brake lines in the longest setting. By using the full
                      travel of the handles there was almost no effect on the kite. I started
                      shortening one knot at a time (about 10cm) until the full travel of the
                      handles - top of handles pointing at the kite - made the kite stall.
                      My question is: should I leave it this way or slack it a little bit so that
                      normal use of the handles don't cause a full stall? Should I leave the full
                      stall for emergencies by leting go of the bar or grabbing both brake lines
                      with one hand and pulling (has been sugested in this list as the best way
                      to kill a kite)?

                      Thanks for any tip,

                      Antonio
                    • Greg Walsh
                      How about a tiny (30cm square) 4-line drag chute attached to the normal safety leash and stowed in a tube attached to your harness? If you fall in at speed
                      Message 10 of 12 , Dec 5, 1999
                        How about a tiny (30cm square) 4-line drag 'chute attached to the
                        normal safety leash and stowed in a tube attached to your harness?

                        If you fall in at speed the 'chute is washed out of the tube and opens
                        and pulls on your leash. To restow it simply pull on the leash line to
                        haul the chute back into the tube.

                        A problem is that it would probably deploy each time you fell off which
                        would impact your ability to crash and recover. Perhaps making the
                        deployment tube a snug enough fit would help. Make it snug so that 20
                        seconds of dragging are required. Also it would be no use on land if
                        you lose it while launching. Perhaps a little hand deploy option so you
                        can rip it out if your're hooked in and twisted.

                        Some parachute systems have a line of velcro tabs which have to peel
                        off successively before they open (I belive they're actually lines of
                        stitching which have to pop but go with me on this). You could use a
                        similar system that required you to pat it back into place after each
                        crash (ie. slap it with your hand not fiddle about lining stuff up). If
                        you have one big crash or several small crashes without patting the
                        velcro down (or tugging on the stow leash) then you must be dead and
                        the system deploys.

                        Plan B. Fit the leash to the leg rope of your board. If you fall off
                        the board acts as the drag chute and pulls the leash. Perhaps a velcro
                        keeper to stop it stalling your kite when your trying to get going.
                        Would also avoid board leashes breaking so often.
                      • David Phillips
                        Okay. Here s an idea we can apply immediately, using readily available parts, without relying on magic. Assume you have an emergency brake line set up like
                        Message 11 of 12 , Dec 5, 1999

                          Okay.  Here's an idea we can apply immediately, using readily available parts, without relying on magic.

                          Assume you have an emergency brake line set up like Antonio's:

                                          http://www.flysurfing.com.br/extras/quickrel.gif

                          Now on the harness line, the one between your handles that hooks into the harness, add a snap shackle quick release with a relatively short leash attached to your non-dominant side wrist.  (I understand this is similar to the deadman release used on the Wipika.)  This is not entirely passive (or "dead") because it requires a pull on the leash to release the harness line.  But it might get us close enough to what we want.
                            --David
                          ----------
                          David M. Phillips  dphillips@...
                          Austin, Texas
                        • SeanCMurph@aol.com
                          ...20 seconds is a LONG time... Most of the USDSR experiences I know of last but a few seconds and feel like several minutes...
                          Message 12 of 12 , Dec 6, 1999
                            ...20 seconds is a LONG time...

                            Most of the USDSR experiences I know of last but a few seconds and feel like
                            several minutes...
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