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Re: 2 non FAQ Beginner questions

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  • jim cancil
    ... ..........Jeezus Andy - you gotta Death Wish! You re nuts trying to convert that into a 3- liner without knowing any of the principles of kite design.
    Message 1 of 12 , Jul 19, 2007
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      --- In kitesurf@yahoogroups.com, "Andy" <jago25_98@...> wrote:
      >
      > Don't worry, I will be getting lessons before taking to the water.
      >
      > But before I do so I want to get the basics on land.

      ..........Jeezus Andy - you gotta Death Wish! You're nuts trying to convert that into a 3-
      liner without knowing any of the principles of kite design. Three line kites are famous for
      Death Spirals - from which you cannot recover 'till the kite is trashed ..and you're along for
      the ride.

      Then going without a harness?! Are you the Amazing Hulk?

      Damn... don't-even connect those lines unless you're near water. Nearly - the only way a
      kite hurts you on the water is by being pulled back onto land (or a line getting caught
      underwater and drowning you) ...and you're planning on starting-and-ending on land?!

      Some of us were ignorant before this sport was widespread - there's now enough
      collective expirence to know the dangers. ...and you've listed a couple of the worst.

      Most kites from 2002/3 didn't have ball-valves. You just gotta pinch-and-seal it faster
      than the air can come out .. which can be real hard on those teeny end struts - hense,
      ball-valves.

      If you were to come here - you'd be talked to nicely, then ..run off...'till you had a few days
      of lessons. Sorry ..but this dangerous - really!

      Jim
    • Dean Crowell
      I think most will agree that kiting advancements since 1999 can be compared to the horse n buggy and almost any new car - huge overall improvements. Check
      Message 2 of 12 , Jul 19, 2007
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        I think most will agree that kiting advancements since 1999 can be
        compared to the horse 'n buggy and almost any new car - huge overall
        improvements. Check this kitemare site to see what others have
        discovered and learn from their mistakes. We don't want this sport
        flagged by every beach patrol across the country due to too many
        accidents and fatalities, so just go easy, avoid the crowds until you
        become competent and then you'll be kiting the rest of your life!
        (Jim, Andy may be referring to trainer kite land lessons when he says
        the basics which is a good idea as I'm sure you'll agree)

        http://www.kitemare.com/Kitemares.htm

        Aloha, Dean


        On Jul 19, 2007, at 7:03 AM, jim cancil wrote:

        > --- In kitesurf@yahoogroups.com, "Andy" <jago25_98@...> wrote:
        > >
        > > Don't worry, I will be getting lessons before taking to the water.
        > >
        > > But before I do so I want to get the basics on land.
        >
        > ..........Jeezus Andy - you gotta Death Wish! You're nuts trying to
        > convert that into a 3-
        > liner without knowing any of the principles of kite design. Three
        > line kites are famous for
        > Death Spirals - from which you cannot recover 'till the kite is
        > trashed ..and you're along for
        > the ride.
        >
        > Then going without a harness?! Are you the Amazing Hulk?
        >
        > Damn... don't-even connect those lines unless you're near water.
        > Nearly - the only way a
        > kite hurts you on the water is by being pulled back onto land (or a
        > line getting caught
        > underwater and drowning you) ...and you're planning on starting-and-
        > ending on land?!
        >
        > Some of us were ignorant before this sport was widespread - there's
        > now enough
        > collective expirence to know the dangers. ...and you've listed a
        > couple of the worst.
        >
        > Most kites from 2002/3 didn't have ball-valves. You just gotta
        > pinch-and-seal it faster
        > than the air can come out .. which can be real hard on those teeny
        > end struts - hense,
        > ball-valves.
        >
        > If you were to come here - you'd be talked to nicely, then ..run
        > off...'till you had a few days
        > of lessons. Sorry ..but this dangerous - really!
        >
        > Jim
        >
        >
        >



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Steve
        Hey Andy A 9 meter kite is not a trainer kite! You need a 2 meter kite for land training. What do you weigh? There is absolutely no point to flying this
        Message 3 of 12 , Jul 19, 2007
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          Hey Andy

          A 9 meter kite is not a trainer kite! You need a 2 meter kite for land
          training. What do you weigh? There is absolutely no point to flying
          this kite on land without a harness. Step 1 is to learn to fly a small
          kite. Step 2 is to harness up a larger kite and drag in the water.
          Your questions about re-rigging this kite for 3 lines and no harness
          tell us that you are headed for disaster. Don't do it! Go get either a
          trainer kite or lessons now! kitesurfingschool.org is the best resource
          there is.

          I hope you find this helpful. Let us know if you need further
          explanation on any of this.

          Steve
          Carson City, Nevada, USA

          Andy wrote:
          >
          > Don't worry, I will be getting lessons before taking to the water.
          >
          > But before I do so I want to get the basics on land.
          >
          > For preparation I've seen a few DVDs and read a bit
          > (http://kitesurfingschool.org/safety.htm
          > <http://kitesurfingschool.org/safety.htm>) but I can't seem to find the
          > answers to these questions.
          >
          > This is my first kite:
          > http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=300124406336
          > <http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=300124406336>
          >
          > It's a bit small. I hope on a 10knot day it can be a halfway house
          > between a trainer kite and something bigger for starting out.
          >
          > The setup seems straightforward if using a harness. 2 red lines on the
          > outside, 2 green depower lines through the bar and to the harness, and
          > the white safety line going to wrist strap.
          >
          > 1) Now, obviously I don't want to use a harness when starting so I
          > need to convert this to a basic 3 line setup... only I can't see how,
          > and can't find a diagram showing that setup. If we only have 2 lines
          > either end of the kite that leaves either the top or the bottom
          > unattached, on this kite anyway. Where can I see a picture?
          > Alternatively, can the 2 green depower lines be used with out a
          > harness, and if so, how?
          >
          > 2) Secondly I'm worried the valve on the leading edge bladder is
          > broken. After pumping up for the first time the air just rushed out -
          > there was no ball or flap to stop or slow this like on the other . Is
          > there something I'm missing here?
          >
          > Thanks for your time. Is there somewhere I can get some good quality
          > info for basic questions like this before shelling out on lessons?
          >
          > - j
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
          >
          > No virus found in this incoming message.
          > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
          > Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.10.9/907 - Release Date: 7/18/2007 3:30 PM
          >
        • Andy
          Well, I m hopefully meeting up with 2 other guys who ve just done the same this weekend so we ll see what happens to all 3 of us. I remember this stuff when I
          Message 4 of 12 , Jul 19, 2007
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            Well, I'm hopefully meeting up with 2 other guys who've just done the
            same this weekend so we'll see what happens to all 3 of us.

            I remember this stuff when I started surfing. `Always bring company`
            `Get insurance` blah blah. The advice is good and took it onboard. But
            what I loved was just driving off alone somewhere, knowing that my
            life is my responsibility. Like a freeclimbing rock climber I love
            that responsibility of one's own skin. I love knowing that if I slip,
            it's my fault and mine alone. And when I nearly drowned I loved it. I
            loved the thrill of being alive after something like that. I like
            advice, nobody likes orders. Nanny culture, I own these bones. But if
            I expect you to help me afterwards, now that's a different argument,
            and one I heed.

            Now, I got this 9 and I've decided to heed advice about harnesses so
            as a result I don't want to wear a harness for safety's sake. But the
            only way I can see how to rig the kite is with the depower lines that
            connect to a harness.

            So, you can either let me figure it out myself or you can give me a
            hint as to whether this kite is dependent on a harness.

            Don't get me wrong, I believe there are very significant dangers. But
            I don't believe that that therefore means I have to pay significant
            money to a professional who extols on and on about those dangers in
            order to boost business. There are cheaper forms of education, and
            other ways of increasing safety. What of people we've known in the
            past who had no lessons and are here to tell the tale?

            I didn't expect to win this kite. So when it came though I thought,
            another kite for training? I thought, if I get a non gusty day and the
            wind is light, being a 9 that should treat me a little more lightly so
            let's just get on with it. Let's just get on with it or it'll never
            happen.

            Managed to get it up briefly last night with a friend holding the
            harness attachment. Didn't seem too bad. And if it did take me, just
            drop the bar. I'm no expert but is that really so hard?

            Anyway, you'll all hate me know so nice knowing you.

            - A
          • Klotz, Michael MD
            This isn t surfing. Not knowing how to handle a kite can EASILY get you killed, or make you a quad. More importantly, and despite you free spirit, you could
            Message 5 of 12 , Jul 19, 2007
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              This isn't surfing. Not knowing how to handle a kite can EASILY get you killed, or make you a quad. More importantly, and despite you free spirit, you could also kill or seriously injure a bystander. We have all seen experienced kites get into major trouble and that is on the water. We have also seen/heard of multiple deaths and head injuries from ending up on land. Typically from beginners who don't understand the potential power of a kite. I strongly recommend flying a trainer kite until you can fly it blind and then take lessons. Depending on the wind, your larger kite could have the power of a MasterCraft and when you lose control, and you will, it is as if someone hit the throttle. This is advice from kiteboarding fanatics. Be safe or you may not live to enjoy this awesome sport. MK

              -----Original Message-----
              From: kitesurf@yahoogroups.com [mailto:kitesurf@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Andy
              Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2007 12:17 PM
              To: kitesurf@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [ksurf] 2 non FAQ Beginner questions



              Well, I'm hopefully meeting up with 2 other guys who've just done the
              same this weekend so we'll see what happens to all 3 of us.

              I remember this stuff when I started surfing. `Always bring company`
              `Get insurance` blah blah. The advice is good and took it onboard. But
              what I loved was just driving off alone somewhere, knowing that my
              life is my responsibility. Like a freeclimbing rock climber I love
              that responsibility of one's own skin. I love knowing that if I slip,
              it's my fault and mine alone. And when I nearly drowned I loved it. I
              loved the thrill of being alive after something like that. I like
              advice, nobody likes orders. Nanny culture, I own these bones. But if
              I expect you to help me afterwards, now that's a different argument,
              and one I heed.

              Now, I got this 9 and I've decided to heed advice about harnesses so
              as a result I don't want to wear a harness for safety's sake. But the
              only way I can see how to rig the kite is with the depower lines that
              connect to a harness.

              So, you can either let me figure it out myself or you can give me a
              hint as to whether this kite is dependent on a harness.

              Don't get me wrong, I believe there are very significant dangers. But
              I don't believe that that therefore means I have to pay significant
              money to a professional who extols on and on about those dangers in
              order to boost business. There are cheaper forms of education, and
              other ways of increasing safety. What of people we've known in the
              past who had no lessons and are here to tell the tale?

              I didn't expect to win this kite. So when it came though I thought,
              another kite for training? I thought, if I get a non gusty day and the
              wind is light, being a 9 that should treat me a little more lightly so
              let's just get on with it. Let's just get on with it or it'll never
              happen.

              Managed to get it up briefly last night with a friend holding the
              harness attachment. Didn't seem too bad. And if it did take me, just
              drop the bar. I'm no expert but is that really so hard?

              Anyway, you'll all hate me know so nice knowing you.

              - A







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              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Steve
              Hey Andy We re just trying to help you avoid disaster If you are determined - maybe you better describe your bar setup. Most 5 line bars will fly fine
              Message 6 of 12 , Jul 19, 2007
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                Hey Andy

                We're just trying to help you avoid disaster

                If you are determined - maybe you better describe your bar setup. Most
                5 line bars will fly fine unhooked.

                Re: the idea of just dropping the bar - 1. make sure you have a safety
                leash that will fully depower the kite when you let go and practice
                letting go so it becomes automatic and 2. back in the old days there
                were many reports of guys who were unhooked and just holding the bars
                in their hands who did not let go even after multiple impacts. There
                seems to be some kind of psychological block to it. Probably because by
                the time you know you need to let go you are already flying through the
                air at speed.

                Hope this helps

                Steve
                Carson City, Nevada

                Andy wrote:
                >
                >
                > Now, I got this 9 and I've decided to heed advice about harnesses so
                > as a result I don't want to wear a harness for safety's sake. But the
                > only way I can see how to rig the kite is with the depower lines that
                > connect to a harness.
                >
                > So, you can either let me figure it out myself or you can give me a
                > hint as to whether this kite is dependent on a harness.
                >
                >
                > Don't get me wrong, I believe there are very significant dangers. But
                > I don't believe that that therefore means I have to pay significant
                > money to a professional who extols on and on about those dangers in
                > order to boost business. There are cheaper forms of education, and
                > other ways of increasing safety. What of people we've known in the
                > past who had no lessons and are here to tell the tale?
                >
                > I didn't expect to win this kite. So when it came though I thought,
                > another kite for training? I thought, if I get a non gusty day and the
                > wind is light, being a 9 that should treat me a little more lightly so
                > let's just get on with it. Let's just get on with it or it'll never
                > happen.
                >
                > Managed to get it up briefly last night with a friend holding the
                > harness attachment. Didn't seem too bad. And if it did take me, just
                > drop the bar. I'm no expert but is that really so hard?
                >
                > Anyway, you'll all hate me know so nice knowing you.
                >
                > - A
                >
                >
                > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                >
                > No virus found in this incoming message.
                > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                > Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.10.9/907 - Release Date: 7/18/2007 3:30 PM
                >
              • drmathieu
                To the group and Andy, I have belonged to this group for a long time and this last post really disturbed me. Andy, you say that we hate you ? How do you
                Message 7 of 12 , Jul 20, 2007
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                  To the group and Andy,

                  I have belonged to this group for a long time and this last post really
                  disturbed me. Andy, you say that we "hate you"? How do you know?
                  You have never met us.

                  I applaud your enthusiasm to begin to kiting but first things are first.
                  Lessons are a great idea. Awesome idea. I had a 2.8 meter Best trainer
                  that I flew for a year and a half and then shredded it from flying so
                  much. I then bought a HQ Beemer 3.6 meter. I flew both of these kites
                  for about 2 years before I took lessons (Real Kiteboarding). I learned
                  two things from flying my trainer and taking lessons:

                  1. FEAR

                  2. RESPECT

                  As a former Rugby player, I wanted a sport that would keep me in shape.
                  I am 6' 1" and I weigh 230 pounds. I love kiting. I just got back from
                  a trip to Hatteras NC. I took both my Cabrinha Bow Kites with me
                  (12Meter and 16Meter). Each session that I put the kites into the air
                  I had both fear and great respect for the kites.

                  I think you can find GREAT deals on Ebay. Saftey? My 3.6 Meter
                  trainer will drag me down the beach in about 20-25knots of wind. I
                  think I would want to have a harness on a 9Meter just in case I dropped
                  the kite and then the kite would go down the beach and hurt an innocent
                  bystander. I want to be in control of my equipment at all times. I
                  would never think of launching my kites without a harness. I have
                  launched unhooked before and then as soon as possible attached the
                  chicken loop. Both of my Cabrinha bow kites have almost instant
                  DEPOWER. Some of the old kites have almost no depower. Kiting has come
                  a LONG way in a short amount of years. I saw a guy get pulled onto
                  shore and hit a tree in 1999. Luckily the guy was not hurt that bad.
                  That right there showed me that these kites have a LOT of power.

                  We are not saying that we do not like you, just get lessons or learn
                  from someone experienced. Some of us have been there and done that!
                  learn from our mistakes. Kitemare.com is a great start.

                  I hope you have an awesome time kiteboarding and please email the group
                  if you need any advice.

                  I look forward to seeing you on the water,

                  Dr. Mathieu W. Sisk





                  Without one or the other you are going in the wrong direction.
                  , Steve <stevesgroups@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Hey Andy
                  >
                  > We're just trying to help you avoid disaster
                  >
                  > If you are determined - maybe you better describe your bar setup. Most
                  > 5 line bars will fly fine unhooked.
                  >
                  > Re: the idea of just dropping the bar - 1. make sure you have a safety
                  > leash that will fully depower the kite when you let go and practice
                  > letting go so it becomes automatic and 2. back in the old days there
                  > were many reports of guys who were unhooked and just holding the bars
                  > in their hands who did not let go even after multiple impacts. There
                  > seems to be some kind of psychological block to it. Probably because
                  by
                  > the time you know you need to let go you are already flying through
                  the
                  > air at speed.
                  >
                  > Hope this helps
                  >
                  > Steve
                  > Carson City, Nevada
                  >
                  > Andy wrote:
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Now, I got this 9 and I've decided to heed advice about harnesses so
                  > > as a result I don't want to wear a harness for safety's sake. But
                  the
                  > > only way I can see how to rig the kite is with the depower lines
                  that
                  > > connect to a harness.
                  > >
                  > > So, you can either let me figure it out myself or you can give me a
                  > > hint as to whether this kite is dependent on a harness.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Don't get me wrong, I believe there are very significant dangers.
                  But
                  > > I don't believe that that therefore means I have to pay significant
                  > > money to a professional who extols on and on about those dangers in
                  > > order to boost business. There are cheaper forms of education, and
                  > > other ways of increasing safety. What of people we've known in the
                  > > past who had no lessons and are here to tell the tale?
                  > >
                  > > I didn't expect to win this kite. So when it came though I thought,
                  > > another kite for training? I thought, if I get a non gusty day and
                  the
                  > > wind is light, being a 9 that should treat me a little more lightly
                  so
                  > > let's just get on with it. Let's just get on with it or it'll never
                  > > happen.
                  > >
                  > > Managed to get it up briefly last night with a friend holding the
                  > > harness attachment. Didn't seem too bad. And if it did take me, just
                  > > drop the bar. I'm no expert but is that really so hard?
                  > >
                  > > Anyway, you'll all hate me know so nice knowing you.
                  > >
                  > > - A
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  > >
                  > > No virus found in this incoming message.
                  > > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                  > > Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.10.9/907 - Release Date:
                  7/18/2007 3:30 PM
                  > >
                  >




                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Klotz, Michael MD
                  Actually these messages are out of concern for your safety. I started in the very early days (2 line Naish AR 3.5) when there was no instruction whatsoever.
                  Message 8 of 12 , Jul 20, 2007
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Actually these messages are out of concern for your safety. I started in the very early days (2 line Naish AR 3.5) when there was no instruction whatsoever. No boards for a while either. I had a lot of boat rescues and finally a kitemare that almost killed me. I quit the sport until 4 yrs ago. I am an adrenaline junky and my buddies figure I have used 8 of my 9 lives. I took lessons 4 yrs ago and balked at the cost, but when they compared it to diving lessons and the need for safety instruction (as well as fragile equipment) I understood.
                    I was still scared until I had several months of kiting under my belt.
                    Most people who get lofted on land don't let go soon enought and flying big kites on land is a dangerous mistake to most of us. You can also easily destroy your kite.
                    In the water you need to know how to control your kite and do a self rescue. I have seen and heard of incredible kitemares and it never ceases to amaze me how inventive an out of control kite is in finding novel ways to try and kill you.
                    I herniated a disc in May when my kite inverted in 45mph winds and I couldn't haul it in for self-rescue. I had lines around my legs and my knife in my mouth and could have easily lost a limb from those lines.
                    This is an absolutely awesome sport and advances are being made yearly (never buy older kites) and we are seeing fewer and fewer deaths, but a lot of that is due to understanding the dangers of the sport.
                    It sounds like you plan on flying your kite regardless of our advice. Know your safety systems. Know how to release the chicken loop, flag the kite out, release the kite if shit hits the fan. Know how to rig and check your lines. Know the weather! A squall and doubling of the wind will send you into orbit.
                    MK

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: kitesurf@yahoogroups.com [mailto:kitesurf@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of drmathieu
                    Sent: Friday, July 20, 2007 11:49 AM
                    To: kitesurf@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [ksurf] 2 non FAQ Beginner questions




                    To the group and Andy,

                    I have belonged to this group for a long time and this last post really
                    disturbed me. Andy, you say that we "hate you"? How do you know?
                    You have never met us.

                    I applaud your enthusiasm to begin to kiting but first things are first.
                    Lessons are a great idea. Awesome idea. I had a 2.8 meter Best trainer
                    that I flew for a year and a half and then shredded it from flying so
                    much. I then bought a HQ Beemer 3.6 meter. I flew both of these kites
                    for about 2 years before I took lessons (Real Kiteboarding). I learned
                    two things from flying my trainer and taking lessons:

                    1. FEAR

                    2. RESPECT

                    As a former Rugby player, I wanted a sport that would keep me in shape.
                    I am 6' 1" and I weigh 230 pounds. I love kiting. I just got back from
                    a trip to Hatteras NC. I took both my Cabrinha Bow Kites with me
                    (12Meter and 16Meter). Each session that I put the kites into the air
                    I had both fear and great respect for the kites.

                    I think you can find GREAT deals on Ebay. Saftey? My 3.6 Meter
                    trainer will drag me down the beach in about 20-25knots of wind. I
                    think I would want to have a harness on a 9Meter just in case I dropped
                    the kite and then the kite would go down the beach and hurt an innocent
                    bystander. I want to be in control of my equipment at all times. I
                    would never think of launching my kites without a harness. I have
                    launched unhooked before and then as soon as possible attached the
                    chicken loop. Both of my Cabrinha bow kites have almost instant
                    DEPOWER. Some of the old kites have almost no depower. Kiting has come
                    a LONG way in a short amount of years. I saw a guy get pulled onto
                    shore and hit a tree in 1999. Luckily the guy was not hurt that bad.
                    That right there showed me that these kites have a LOT of power.

                    We are not saying that we do not like you, just get lessons or learn
                    from someone experienced. Some of us have been there and done that!
                    learn from our mistakes. Kitemare.com is a great start.

                    I hope you have an awesome time kiteboarding and please email the group
                    if you need any advice.

                    I look forward to seeing you on the water,

                    Dr. Mathieu W. Sisk

                    Without one or the other you are going in the wrong direction.
                    , Steve <stevesgroups@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Hey Andy
                    >
                    > We're just trying to help you avoid disaster
                    >
                    > If you are determined - maybe you better describe your bar setup. Most
                    > 5 line bars will fly fine unhooked.
                    >
                    > Re: the idea of just dropping the bar - 1. make sure you have a safety
                    > leash that will fully depower the kite when you let go and practice
                    > letting go so it becomes automatic and 2. back in the old days there
                    > were many reports of guys who were unhooked and just holding the bars
                    > in their hands who did not let go even after multiple impacts. There
                    > seems to be some kind of psychological block to it. Probably because
                    by
                    > the time you know you need to let go you are already flying through
                    the
                    > air at speed.
                    >
                    > Hope this helps
                    >
                    > Steve
                    > Carson City, Nevada
                    >
                    > Andy wrote:
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Now, I got this 9 and I've decided to heed advice about harnesses so
                    > > as a result I don't want to wear a harness for safety's sake. But
                    the
                    > > only way I can see how to rig the kite is with the depower lines
                    that
                    > > connect to a harness.
                    > >
                    > > So, you can either let me figure it out myself or you can give me a
                    > > hint as to whether this kite is dependent on a harness.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Don't get me wrong, I believe there are very significant dangers.
                    But
                    > > I don't believe that that therefore means I have to pay significant
                    > > money to a professional who extols on and on about those dangers in
                    > > order to boost business. There are cheaper forms of education, and
                    > > other ways of increasing safety. What of people we've known in the
                    > > past who had no lessons and are here to tell the tale?
                    > >
                    > > I didn't expect to win this kite. So when it came though I thought,
                    > > another kite for training? I thought, if I get a non gusty day and
                    the
                    > > wind is light, being a 9 that should treat me a little more lightly
                    so
                    > > let's just get on with it. Let's just get on with it or it'll never
                    > > happen.
                    > >
                    > > Managed to get it up briefly last night with a friend holding the
                    > > harness attachment. Didn't seem too bad. And if it did take me, just
                    > > drop the bar. I'm no expert but is that really so hard?
                    > >
                    > > Anyway, you'll all hate me know so nice knowing you.
                    > >
                    > > - A
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    ----------------------------------------------------------
                    > >
                    > > No virus found in this incoming message.
                    > > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                    > > Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.10.9/907 - Release Date:
                    7/18/2007 3:30 PM
                    > >
                    >

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







                    DISCLAIMER:
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                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • loco 4 olas
                    Mate-I ve been surfing for over 30 years and won a coupla Aussie titles doing it-I ve been kiting for 6 years now-the dangers are incomparable-kiting is way
                    Message 9 of 12 , Jul 21, 2007
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Mate-I've been surfing for over 30 years and won a coupla' Aussie titles doing it-I've been kiting for 6 years now-the dangers are incomparable-kiting is way more risky than anything but surfing Teahpou-I know, I do both.

                      And in kiting (unlike to a large extent in rock climbing) your fuck ups can have HUGE negative consequences for bystanders.

                      Let go of your ego and put your newbie self into a school to get the basics-you have NO idea.

                      Hey-I've been climbing sand hills-this weekend I'm off to El Cap with my running shoes and a bottle of Sprite-wanna' climb below me-duh!



                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: Andy
                      To: kitesurf@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Friday, July 20, 2007 5:16 AM
                      Subject: Re: [ksurf] 2 non FAQ Beginner questions


                      Well, I'm hopefully meeting up with 2 other guys who've just done the
                      same this weekend so we'll see what happens to all 3 of us.

                      I remember this stuff when I started surfing. `Always bring company`
                      `Get insurance` blah blah. The advice is good and took it onboard. But
                      what I loved was just driving off alone somewhere, knowing that my
                      life is my responsibility. Like a freeclimbing rock climber I love
                      that responsibility of one's own skin. I love knowing that if I slip,
                      it's my fault and mine alone. And when I nearly drowned I loved it. I
                      loved the thrill of being alive after something like that. I like
                      advice, nobody likes orders. Nanny culture, I own these bones. But if
                      I expect you to help me afterwards, now that's a different argument,
                      and one I heed.

                      Now, I got this 9 and I've decided to heed advice about harnesses so
                      as a result I don't want to wear a harness for safety's sake. But the
                      only way I can see how to rig the kite is with the depower lines that
                      connect to a harness.

                      So, you can either let me figure it out myself or you can give me a
                      hint as to whether this kite is dependent on a harness.

                      Don't get me wrong, I believe there are very significant dangers. But
                      I don't believe that that therefore means I have to pay significant
                      money to a professional who extols on and on about those dangers in
                      order to boost business. There are cheaper forms of education, and
                      other ways of increasing safety. What of people we've known in the
                      past who had no lessons and are here to tell the tale?

                      I didn't expect to win this kite. So when it came though I thought,
                      another kite for training? I thought, if I get a non gusty day and the
                      wind is light, being a 9 that should treat me a little more lightly so
                      let's just get on with it. Let's just get on with it or it'll never
                      happen.

                      Managed to get it up briefly last night with a friend holding the
                      harness attachment. Didn't seem too bad. And if it did take me, just
                      drop the bar. I'm no expert but is that really so hard?

                      Anyway, you'll all hate me know so nice knowing you.

                      - A





                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Jago Pearce
                      For me it s purely just the money, if it was £100 that would be fine ... From: loco 4 olas Reply-To: kitesurf@yahoogroups.com To:
                      Message 10 of 12 , Jul 22, 2007
                      • 0 Attachment
                        For me it's purely just the money, if it was �100 that would be fine

                        ----Original Message Follows----
                        From: "loco 4 olas" <loco4olas@...>
                        Reply-To: kitesurf@yahoogroups.com
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                        Subject: Re: [ksurf] 2 non FAQ Beginner questions
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                        Mate-I've been surfing for over 30 years and won a coupla' Aussie titles
                        doing it-I've been kiting for 6 years now-the dangers are
                        incomparable-kiting is way more risky than anything but surfing Teahpou-I
                        know, I do both.

                        And in kiting (unlike to a large extent in rock climbing) your fuck ups can
                        have HUGE negative consequences for bystanders.

                        Let go of your ego and put your newbie self into a school to get the
                        basics-you have NO idea.

                        Hey-I've been climbing sand hills-this weekend I'm off to El Cap with my
                        running shoes and a bottle of Sprite-wanna' climb below me-duh!



                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: Andy
                        To: kitesurf@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Friday, July 20, 2007 5:16 AM
                        Subject: Re: [ksurf] 2 non FAQ Beginner questions


                        Well, I'm hopefully meeting up with 2 other guys who've just done the
                        same this weekend so we'll see what happens to all 3 of us.

                        I remember this stuff when I started surfing. `Always bring company`
                        `Get insurance` blah blah. The advice is good and took it onboard. But
                        what I loved was just driving off alone somewhere, knowing that my
                        life is my responsibility. Like a freeclimbing rock climber I love
                        that responsibility of one's own skin. I love knowing that if I slip,
                        it's my fault and mine alone. And when I nearly drowned I loved it. I
                        loved the thrill of being alive after something like that. I like
                        advice, nobody likes orders. Nanny culture, I own these bones. But if
                        I expect you to help me afterwards, now that's a different argument,
                        and one I heed.

                        Now, I got this 9 and I've decided to heed advice about harnesses so
                        as a result I don't want to wear a harness for safety's sake. But the
                        only way I can see how to rig the kite is with the depower lines that
                        connect to a harness.

                        So, you can either let me figure it out myself or you can give me a
                        hint as to whether this kite is dependent on a harness.

                        Don't get me wrong, I believe there are very significant dangers. But
                        I don't believe that that therefore means I have to pay significant
                        money to a professional who extols on and on about those dangers in
                        order to boost business. There are cheaper forms of education, and
                        other ways of increasing safety. What of people we've known in the
                        past who had no lessons and are here to tell the tale?

                        I didn't expect to win this kite. So when it came though I thought,
                        another kite for training? I thought, if I get a non gusty day and the
                        wind is light, being a 9 that should treat me a little more lightly so
                        let's just get on with it. Let's just get on with it or it'll never
                        happen.

                        Managed to get it up briefly last night with a friend holding the
                        harness attachment. Didn't seem too bad. And if it did take me, just
                        drop the bar. I'm no expert but is that really so hard?

                        Anyway, you'll all hate me know so nice knowing you.

                        - A





                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                        _________________________________________________________________
                        Watch all 9 Live Earth concerts live on MSN. http://liveearth.uk.msn.com
                      • Jago Pearce
                        Any tips for finding reasonably priced lessons here in the UK? ... From: Klotz, Michael MD Reply-To: kitesurf@yahoogroups.com
                        Message 11 of 12 , Jul 22, 2007
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Any tips for finding reasonably priced lessons here in the UK?

                          ----Original Message Follows----
                          From: "Klotz, Michael MD" <michael.klotz@...>
                          Reply-To: kitesurf@yahoogroups.com
                          To: <kitesurf@yahoogroups.com>
                          Subject: RE: [ksurf] 2 non FAQ Beginner questions
                          Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2007 12:28:33 -0700
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                          Actually these messages are out of concern for your safety. I started in
                          the very early days (2 line Naish AR 3.5) when there was no instruction
                          whatsoever. No boards for a while either. I had a lot of boat rescues and
                          finally a kitemare that almost killed me. I quit the sport until 4 yrs ago.
                          I am an adrenaline junky and my buddies figure I have used 8 of my 9
                          lives. I took lessons 4 yrs ago and balked at the cost, but when they
                          compared it to diving lessons and the need for safety instruction (as well
                          as fragile equipment) I understood.
                          I was still scared until I had several months of kiting under my belt.
                          Most people who get lofted on land don't let go soon enought and flying big
                          kites on land is a dangerous mistake to most of us. You can also easily
                          destroy your kite.
                          In the water you need to know how to control your kite and do a self rescue.
                          I have seen and heard of incredible kitemares and it never ceases to amaze
                          me how inventive an out of control kite is in finding novel ways to try and
                          kill you.
                          I herniated a disc in May when my kite inverted in 45mph winds and I
                          couldn't haul it in for self-rescue. I had lines around my legs and my
                          knife in my mouth and could have easily lost a limb from those lines.
                          This is an absolutely awesome sport and advances are being made yearly
                          (never buy older kites) and we are seeing fewer and fewer deaths, but a lot
                          of that is due to understanding the dangers of the sport.
                          It sounds like you plan on flying your kite regardless of our advice. Know
                          your safety systems. Know how to release the chicken loop, flag the kite
                          out, release the kite if shit hits the fan. Know how to rig and check your
                          lines. Know the weather! A squall and doubling of the wind will send you
                          into orbit.
                          MK

                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: kitesurf@yahoogroups.com [mailto:kitesurf@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of
                          drmathieu
                          Sent: Friday, July 20, 2007 11:49 AM
                          To: kitesurf@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: Re: [ksurf] 2 non FAQ Beginner questions




                          To the group and Andy,

                          I have belonged to this group for a long time and this last post really
                          disturbed me. Andy, you say that we "hate you"? How do you know?
                          You have never met us.

                          I applaud your enthusiasm to begin to kiting but first things are first.
                          Lessons are a great idea. Awesome idea. I had a 2.8 meter Best trainer
                          that I flew for a year and a half and then shredded it from flying so
                          much. I then bought a HQ Beemer 3.6 meter. I flew both of these kites
                          for about 2 years before I took lessons (Real Kiteboarding). I learned
                          two things from flying my trainer and taking lessons:

                          1. FEAR

                          2. RESPECT

                          As a former Rugby player, I wanted a sport that would keep me in shape.
                          I am 6' 1" and I weigh 230 pounds. I love kiting. I just got back from
                          a trip to Hatteras NC. I took both my Cabrinha Bow Kites with me
                          (12Meter and 16Meter). Each session that I put the kites into the air
                          I had both fear and great respect for the kites.

                          I think you can find GREAT deals on Ebay. Saftey? My 3.6 Meter
                          trainer will drag me down the beach in about 20-25knots of wind. I
                          think I would want to have a harness on a 9Meter just in case I dropped
                          the kite and then the kite would go down the beach and hurt an innocent
                          bystander. I want to be in control of my equipment at all times. I
                          would never think of launching my kites without a harness. I have
                          launched unhooked before and then as soon as possible attached the
                          chicken loop. Both of my Cabrinha bow kites have almost instant
                          DEPOWER. Some of the old kites have almost no depower. Kiting has come
                          a LONG way in a short amount of years. I saw a guy get pulled onto
                          shore and hit a tree in 1999. Luckily the guy was not hurt that bad.
                          That right there showed me that these kites have a LOT of power.

                          We are not saying that we do not like you, just get lessons or learn
                          from someone experienced. Some of us have been there and done that!
                          learn from our mistakes. Kitemare.com is a great start.

                          I hope you have an awesome time kiteboarding and please email the group
                          if you need any advice.

                          I look forward to seeing you on the water,

                          Dr. Mathieu W. Sisk

                          Without one or the other you are going in the wrong direction.
                          , Steve <stevesgroups@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Hey Andy
                          >
                          > We're just trying to help you avoid disaster
                          >
                          > If you are determined - maybe you better describe your bar setup. Most
                          > 5 line bars will fly fine unhooked.
                          >
                          > Re: the idea of just dropping the bar - 1. make sure you have a safety
                          > leash that will fully depower the kite when you let go and practice
                          > letting go so it becomes automatic and 2. back in the old days there
                          > were many reports of guys who were unhooked and just holding the bars
                          > in their hands who did not let go even after multiple impacts. There
                          > seems to be some kind of psychological block to it. Probably because
                          by
                          > the time you know you need to let go you are already flying through
                          the
                          > air at speed.
                          >
                          > Hope this helps
                          >
                          > Steve
                          > Carson City, Nevada
                          >
                          > Andy wrote:
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Now, I got this 9 and I've decided to heed advice about harnesses so
                          > > as a result I don't want to wear a harness for safety's sake. But
                          the
                          > > only way I can see how to rig the kite is with the depower lines
                          that
                          > > connect to a harness.
                          > >
                          > > So, you can either let me figure it out myself or you can give me a
                          > > hint as to whether this kite is dependent on a harness.
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Don't get me wrong, I believe there are very significant dangers.
                          But
                          > > I don't believe that that therefore means I have to pay significant
                          > > money to a professional who extols on and on about those dangers in
                          > > order to boost business. There are cheaper forms of education, and
                          > > other ways of increasing safety. What of people we've known in the
                          > > past who had no lessons and are here to tell the tale?
                          > >
                          > > I didn't expect to win this kite. So when it came though I thought,
                          > > another kite for training? I thought, if I get a non gusty day and
                          the
                          > > wind is light, being a 9 that should treat me a little more lightly
                          so
                          > > let's just get on with it. Let's just get on with it or it'll never
                          > > happen.
                          > >
                          > > Managed to get it up briefly last night with a friend holding the
                          > > harness attachment. Didn't seem too bad. And if it did take me, just
                          > > drop the bar. I'm no expert but is that really so hard?
                          > >
                          > > Anyway, you'll all hate me know so nice knowing you.
                          > >
                          > > - A
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          ----------------------------------------------------------
                          > >
                          > > No virus found in this incoming message.
                          > > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                          > > Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.10.9/907 - Release Date:
                          7/18/2007 3:30 PM
                          > >
                          >

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