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2 non FAQ Beginner questions

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  • Andy
    Don t worry, I will be getting lessons before taking to the water. But before I do so I want to get the basics on land. For preparation I ve seen a few DVDs
    Message 1 of 12 , Jul 18 4:30 PM
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      Don't worry, I will be getting lessons before taking to the water.

      But before I do so I want to get the basics on land.

      For preparation I've seen a few DVDs and read a bit
      (http://kitesurfingschool.org/safety.htm) but I can't seem to find the
      answers to these questions.

      This is my first kite:
      http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=300124406336

      It's a bit small. I hope on a 10knot day it can be a halfway house
      between a trainer kite and something bigger for starting out.

      The setup seems straightforward if using a harness. 2 red lines on the
      outside, 2 green depower lines through the bar and to the harness, and
      the white safety line going to wrist strap.

      1) Now, obviously I don't want to use a harness when starting so I
      need to convert this to a basic 3 line setup... only I can't see how,
      and can't find a diagram showing that setup. If we only have 2 lines
      either end of the kite that leaves either the top or the bottom
      unattached, on this kite anyway. Where can I see a picture?
      Alternatively, can the 2 green depower lines be used with out a
      harness, and if so, how?

      2) Secondly I'm worried the valve on the leading edge bladder is
      broken. After pumping up for the first time the air just rushed out -
      there was no ball or flap to stop or slow this like on the other . Is
      there something I'm missing here?

      Thanks for your time. Is there somewhere I can get some good quality
      info for basic questions like this before shelling out on lessons?

      - j
    • jim cancil
      ... ..........Jeezus Andy - you gotta Death Wish! You re nuts trying to convert that into a 3- liner without knowing any of the principles of kite design.
      Message 2 of 12 , Jul 19 5:03 AM
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        --- In kitesurf@yahoogroups.com, "Andy" <jago25_98@...> wrote:
        >
        > Don't worry, I will be getting lessons before taking to the water.
        >
        > But before I do so I want to get the basics on land.

        ..........Jeezus Andy - you gotta Death Wish! You're nuts trying to convert that into a 3-
        liner without knowing any of the principles of kite design. Three line kites are famous for
        Death Spirals - from which you cannot recover 'till the kite is trashed ..and you're along for
        the ride.

        Then going without a harness?! Are you the Amazing Hulk?

        Damn... don't-even connect those lines unless you're near water. Nearly - the only way a
        kite hurts you on the water is by being pulled back onto land (or a line getting caught
        underwater and drowning you) ...and you're planning on starting-and-ending on land?!

        Some of us were ignorant before this sport was widespread - there's now enough
        collective expirence to know the dangers. ...and you've listed a couple of the worst.

        Most kites from 2002/3 didn't have ball-valves. You just gotta pinch-and-seal it faster
        than the air can come out .. which can be real hard on those teeny end struts - hense,
        ball-valves.

        If you were to come here - you'd be talked to nicely, then ..run off...'till you had a few days
        of lessons. Sorry ..but this dangerous - really!

        Jim
      • Dean Crowell
        I think most will agree that kiting advancements since 1999 can be compared to the horse n buggy and almost any new car - huge overall improvements. Check
        Message 3 of 12 , Jul 19 8:01 AM
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          I think most will agree that kiting advancements since 1999 can be
          compared to the horse 'n buggy and almost any new car - huge overall
          improvements. Check this kitemare site to see what others have
          discovered and learn from their mistakes. We don't want this sport
          flagged by every beach patrol across the country due to too many
          accidents and fatalities, so just go easy, avoid the crowds until you
          become competent and then you'll be kiting the rest of your life!
          (Jim, Andy may be referring to trainer kite land lessons when he says
          the basics which is a good idea as I'm sure you'll agree)

          http://www.kitemare.com/Kitemares.htm

          Aloha, Dean


          On Jul 19, 2007, at 7:03 AM, jim cancil wrote:

          > --- In kitesurf@yahoogroups.com, "Andy" <jago25_98@...> wrote:
          > >
          > > Don't worry, I will be getting lessons before taking to the water.
          > >
          > > But before I do so I want to get the basics on land.
          >
          > ..........Jeezus Andy - you gotta Death Wish! You're nuts trying to
          > convert that into a 3-
          > liner without knowing any of the principles of kite design. Three
          > line kites are famous for
          > Death Spirals - from which you cannot recover 'till the kite is
          > trashed ..and you're along for
          > the ride.
          >
          > Then going without a harness?! Are you the Amazing Hulk?
          >
          > Damn... don't-even connect those lines unless you're near water.
          > Nearly - the only way a
          > kite hurts you on the water is by being pulled back onto land (or a
          > line getting caught
          > underwater and drowning you) ...and you're planning on starting-and-
          > ending on land?!
          >
          > Some of us were ignorant before this sport was widespread - there's
          > now enough
          > collective expirence to know the dangers. ...and you've listed a
          > couple of the worst.
          >
          > Most kites from 2002/3 didn't have ball-valves. You just gotta
          > pinch-and-seal it faster
          > than the air can come out .. which can be real hard on those teeny
          > end struts - hense,
          > ball-valves.
          >
          > If you were to come here - you'd be talked to nicely, then ..run
          > off...'till you had a few days
          > of lessons. Sorry ..but this dangerous - really!
          >
          > Jim
          >
          >
          >



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Steve
          Hey Andy A 9 meter kite is not a trainer kite! You need a 2 meter kite for land training. What do you weigh? There is absolutely no point to flying this
          Message 4 of 12 , Jul 19 9:55 AM
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            Hey Andy

            A 9 meter kite is not a trainer kite! You need a 2 meter kite for land
            training. What do you weigh? There is absolutely no point to flying
            this kite on land without a harness. Step 1 is to learn to fly a small
            kite. Step 2 is to harness up a larger kite and drag in the water.
            Your questions about re-rigging this kite for 3 lines and no harness
            tell us that you are headed for disaster. Don't do it! Go get either a
            trainer kite or lessons now! kitesurfingschool.org is the best resource
            there is.

            I hope you find this helpful. Let us know if you need further
            explanation on any of this.

            Steve
            Carson City, Nevada, USA

            Andy wrote:
            >
            > Don't worry, I will be getting lessons before taking to the water.
            >
            > But before I do so I want to get the basics on land.
            >
            > For preparation I've seen a few DVDs and read a bit
            > (http://kitesurfingschool.org/safety.htm
            > <http://kitesurfingschool.org/safety.htm>) but I can't seem to find the
            > answers to these questions.
            >
            > This is my first kite:
            > http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=300124406336
            > <http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=300124406336>
            >
            > It's a bit small. I hope on a 10knot day it can be a halfway house
            > between a trainer kite and something bigger for starting out.
            >
            > The setup seems straightforward if using a harness. 2 red lines on the
            > outside, 2 green depower lines through the bar and to the harness, and
            > the white safety line going to wrist strap.
            >
            > 1) Now, obviously I don't want to use a harness when starting so I
            > need to convert this to a basic 3 line setup... only I can't see how,
            > and can't find a diagram showing that setup. If we only have 2 lines
            > either end of the kite that leaves either the top or the bottom
            > unattached, on this kite anyway. Where can I see a picture?
            > Alternatively, can the 2 green depower lines be used with out a
            > harness, and if so, how?
            >
            > 2) Secondly I'm worried the valve on the leading edge bladder is
            > broken. After pumping up for the first time the air just rushed out -
            > there was no ball or flap to stop or slow this like on the other . Is
            > there something I'm missing here?
            >
            > Thanks for your time. Is there somewhere I can get some good quality
            > info for basic questions like this before shelling out on lessons?
            >
            > - j
            >
            >
            > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
            >
            > No virus found in this incoming message.
            > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
            > Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.10.9/907 - Release Date: 7/18/2007 3:30 PM
            >
          • Andy
            Well, I m hopefully meeting up with 2 other guys who ve just done the same this weekend so we ll see what happens to all 3 of us. I remember this stuff when I
            Message 5 of 12 , Jul 19 12:16 PM
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              Well, I'm hopefully meeting up with 2 other guys who've just done the
              same this weekend so we'll see what happens to all 3 of us.

              I remember this stuff when I started surfing. `Always bring company`
              `Get insurance` blah blah. The advice is good and took it onboard. But
              what I loved was just driving off alone somewhere, knowing that my
              life is my responsibility. Like a freeclimbing rock climber I love
              that responsibility of one's own skin. I love knowing that if I slip,
              it's my fault and mine alone. And when I nearly drowned I loved it. I
              loved the thrill of being alive after something like that. I like
              advice, nobody likes orders. Nanny culture, I own these bones. But if
              I expect you to help me afterwards, now that's a different argument,
              and one I heed.

              Now, I got this 9 and I've decided to heed advice about harnesses so
              as a result I don't want to wear a harness for safety's sake. But the
              only way I can see how to rig the kite is with the depower lines that
              connect to a harness.

              So, you can either let me figure it out myself or you can give me a
              hint as to whether this kite is dependent on a harness.

              Don't get me wrong, I believe there are very significant dangers. But
              I don't believe that that therefore means I have to pay significant
              money to a professional who extols on and on about those dangers in
              order to boost business. There are cheaper forms of education, and
              other ways of increasing safety. What of people we've known in the
              past who had no lessons and are here to tell the tale?

              I didn't expect to win this kite. So when it came though I thought,
              another kite for training? I thought, if I get a non gusty day and the
              wind is light, being a 9 that should treat me a little more lightly so
              let's just get on with it. Let's just get on with it or it'll never
              happen.

              Managed to get it up briefly last night with a friend holding the
              harness attachment. Didn't seem too bad. And if it did take me, just
              drop the bar. I'm no expert but is that really so hard?

              Anyway, you'll all hate me know so nice knowing you.

              - A
            • Klotz, Michael MD
              This isn t surfing. Not knowing how to handle a kite can EASILY get you killed, or make you a quad. More importantly, and despite you free spirit, you could
              Message 6 of 12 , Jul 19 1:36 PM
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                This isn't surfing. Not knowing how to handle a kite can EASILY get you killed, or make you a quad. More importantly, and despite you free spirit, you could also kill or seriously injure a bystander. We have all seen experienced kites get into major trouble and that is on the water. We have also seen/heard of multiple deaths and head injuries from ending up on land. Typically from beginners who don't understand the potential power of a kite. I strongly recommend flying a trainer kite until you can fly it blind and then take lessons. Depending on the wind, your larger kite could have the power of a MasterCraft and when you lose control, and you will, it is as if someone hit the throttle. This is advice from kiteboarding fanatics. Be safe or you may not live to enjoy this awesome sport. MK

                -----Original Message-----
                From: kitesurf@yahoogroups.com [mailto:kitesurf@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Andy
                Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2007 12:17 PM
                To: kitesurf@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [ksurf] 2 non FAQ Beginner questions



                Well, I'm hopefully meeting up with 2 other guys who've just done the
                same this weekend so we'll see what happens to all 3 of us.

                I remember this stuff when I started surfing. `Always bring company`
                `Get insurance` blah blah. The advice is good and took it onboard. But
                what I loved was just driving off alone somewhere, knowing that my
                life is my responsibility. Like a freeclimbing rock climber I love
                that responsibility of one's own skin. I love knowing that if I slip,
                it's my fault and mine alone. And when I nearly drowned I loved it. I
                loved the thrill of being alive after something like that. I like
                advice, nobody likes orders. Nanny culture, I own these bones. But if
                I expect you to help me afterwards, now that's a different argument,
                and one I heed.

                Now, I got this 9 and I've decided to heed advice about harnesses so
                as a result I don't want to wear a harness for safety's sake. But the
                only way I can see how to rig the kite is with the depower lines that
                connect to a harness.

                So, you can either let me figure it out myself or you can give me a
                hint as to whether this kite is dependent on a harness.

                Don't get me wrong, I believe there are very significant dangers. But
                I don't believe that that therefore means I have to pay significant
                money to a professional who extols on and on about those dangers in
                order to boost business. There are cheaper forms of education, and
                other ways of increasing safety. What of people we've known in the
                past who had no lessons and are here to tell the tale?

                I didn't expect to win this kite. So when it came though I thought,
                another kite for training? I thought, if I get a non gusty day and the
                wind is light, being a 9 that should treat me a little more lightly so
                let's just get on with it. Let's just get on with it or it'll never
                happen.

                Managed to get it up briefly last night with a friend holding the
                harness attachment. Didn't seem too bad. And if it did take me, just
                drop the bar. I'm no expert but is that really so hard?

                Anyway, you'll all hate me know so nice knowing you.

                - A







                DISCLAIMER:
                This message is intended for the sole use of the addressee, and may contain information that is privileged, confidential and exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the addressee you are hereby notified that you may not use, copy, disclose, or distribute to anyone the message or any information contained in the message. If you have received this message in error, please immediately advise the sender by reply email and delete this message.


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Steve
                Hey Andy We re just trying to help you avoid disaster If you are determined - maybe you better describe your bar setup. Most 5 line bars will fly fine
                Message 7 of 12 , Jul 19 2:09 PM
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                  Hey Andy

                  We're just trying to help you avoid disaster

                  If you are determined - maybe you better describe your bar setup. Most
                  5 line bars will fly fine unhooked.

                  Re: the idea of just dropping the bar - 1. make sure you have a safety
                  leash that will fully depower the kite when you let go and practice
                  letting go so it becomes automatic and 2. back in the old days there
                  were many reports of guys who were unhooked and just holding the bars
                  in their hands who did not let go even after multiple impacts. There
                  seems to be some kind of psychological block to it. Probably because by
                  the time you know you need to let go you are already flying through the
                  air at speed.

                  Hope this helps

                  Steve
                  Carson City, Nevada

                  Andy wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > Now, I got this 9 and I've decided to heed advice about harnesses so
                  > as a result I don't want to wear a harness for safety's sake. But the
                  > only way I can see how to rig the kite is with the depower lines that
                  > connect to a harness.
                  >
                  > So, you can either let me figure it out myself or you can give me a
                  > hint as to whether this kite is dependent on a harness.
                  >
                  >
                  > Don't get me wrong, I believe there are very significant dangers. But
                  > I don't believe that that therefore means I have to pay significant
                  > money to a professional who extols on and on about those dangers in
                  > order to boost business. There are cheaper forms of education, and
                  > other ways of increasing safety. What of people we've known in the
                  > past who had no lessons and are here to tell the tale?
                  >
                  > I didn't expect to win this kite. So when it came though I thought,
                  > another kite for training? I thought, if I get a non gusty day and the
                  > wind is light, being a 9 that should treat me a little more lightly so
                  > let's just get on with it. Let's just get on with it or it'll never
                  > happen.
                  >
                  > Managed to get it up briefly last night with a friend holding the
                  > harness attachment. Didn't seem too bad. And if it did take me, just
                  > drop the bar. I'm no expert but is that really so hard?
                  >
                  > Anyway, you'll all hate me know so nice knowing you.
                  >
                  > - A
                  >
                  >
                  > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  >
                  > No virus found in this incoming message.
                  > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                  > Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.10.9/907 - Release Date: 7/18/2007 3:30 PM
                  >
                • drmathieu
                  To the group and Andy, I have belonged to this group for a long time and this last post really disturbed me. Andy, you say that we hate you ? How do you
                  Message 8 of 12 , Jul 20 11:49 AM
                  • 0 Attachment
                    To the group and Andy,

                    I have belonged to this group for a long time and this last post really
                    disturbed me. Andy, you say that we "hate you"? How do you know?
                    You have never met us.

                    I applaud your enthusiasm to begin to kiting but first things are first.
                    Lessons are a great idea. Awesome idea. I had a 2.8 meter Best trainer
                    that I flew for a year and a half and then shredded it from flying so
                    much. I then bought a HQ Beemer 3.6 meter. I flew both of these kites
                    for about 2 years before I took lessons (Real Kiteboarding). I learned
                    two things from flying my trainer and taking lessons:

                    1. FEAR

                    2. RESPECT

                    As a former Rugby player, I wanted a sport that would keep me in shape.
                    I am 6' 1" and I weigh 230 pounds. I love kiting. I just got back from
                    a trip to Hatteras NC. I took both my Cabrinha Bow Kites with me
                    (12Meter and 16Meter). Each session that I put the kites into the air
                    I had both fear and great respect for the kites.

                    I think you can find GREAT deals on Ebay. Saftey? My 3.6 Meter
                    trainer will drag me down the beach in about 20-25knots of wind. I
                    think I would want to have a harness on a 9Meter just in case I dropped
                    the kite and then the kite would go down the beach and hurt an innocent
                    bystander. I want to be in control of my equipment at all times. I
                    would never think of launching my kites without a harness. I have
                    launched unhooked before and then as soon as possible attached the
                    chicken loop. Both of my Cabrinha bow kites have almost instant
                    DEPOWER. Some of the old kites have almost no depower. Kiting has come
                    a LONG way in a short amount of years. I saw a guy get pulled onto
                    shore and hit a tree in 1999. Luckily the guy was not hurt that bad.
                    That right there showed me that these kites have a LOT of power.

                    We are not saying that we do not like you, just get lessons or learn
                    from someone experienced. Some of us have been there and done that!
                    learn from our mistakes. Kitemare.com is a great start.

                    I hope you have an awesome time kiteboarding and please email the group
                    if you need any advice.

                    I look forward to seeing you on the water,

                    Dr. Mathieu W. Sisk





                    Without one or the other you are going in the wrong direction.
                    , Steve <stevesgroups@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Hey Andy
                    >
                    > We're just trying to help you avoid disaster
                    >
                    > If you are determined - maybe you better describe your bar setup. Most
                    > 5 line bars will fly fine unhooked.
                    >
                    > Re: the idea of just dropping the bar - 1. make sure you have a safety
                    > leash that will fully depower the kite when you let go and practice
                    > letting go so it becomes automatic and 2. back in the old days there
                    > were many reports of guys who were unhooked and just holding the bars
                    > in their hands who did not let go even after multiple impacts. There
                    > seems to be some kind of psychological block to it. Probably because
                    by
                    > the time you know you need to let go you are already flying through
                    the
                    > air at speed.
                    >
                    > Hope this helps
                    >
                    > Steve
                    > Carson City, Nevada
                    >
                    > Andy wrote:
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Now, I got this 9 and I've decided to heed advice about harnesses so
                    > > as a result I don't want to wear a harness for safety's sake. But
                    the
                    > > only way I can see how to rig the kite is with the depower lines
                    that
                    > > connect to a harness.
                    > >
                    > > So, you can either let me figure it out myself or you can give me a
                    > > hint as to whether this kite is dependent on a harness.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Don't get me wrong, I believe there are very significant dangers.
                    But
                    > > I don't believe that that therefore means I have to pay significant
                    > > money to a professional who extols on and on about those dangers in
                    > > order to boost business. There are cheaper forms of education, and
                    > > other ways of increasing safety. What of people we've known in the
                    > > past who had no lessons and are here to tell the tale?
                    > >
                    > > I didn't expect to win this kite. So when it came though I thought,
                    > > another kite for training? I thought, if I get a non gusty day and
                    the
                    > > wind is light, being a 9 that should treat me a little more lightly
                    so
                    > > let's just get on with it. Let's just get on with it or it'll never
                    > > happen.
                    > >
                    > > Managed to get it up briefly last night with a friend holding the
                    > > harness attachment. Didn't seem too bad. And if it did take me, just
                    > > drop the bar. I'm no expert but is that really so hard?
                    > >
                    > > Anyway, you'll all hate me know so nice knowing you.
                    > >
                    > > - A
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                    > >
                    > > No virus found in this incoming message.
                    > > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                    > > Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.10.9/907 - Release Date:
                    7/18/2007 3:30 PM
                    > >
                    >




                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Klotz, Michael MD
                    Actually these messages are out of concern for your safety. I started in the very early days (2 line Naish AR 3.5) when there was no instruction whatsoever.
                    Message 9 of 12 , Jul 20 12:28 PM
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Actually these messages are out of concern for your safety. I started in the very early days (2 line Naish AR 3.5) when there was no instruction whatsoever. No boards for a while either. I had a lot of boat rescues and finally a kitemare that almost killed me. I quit the sport until 4 yrs ago. I am an adrenaline junky and my buddies figure I have used 8 of my 9 lives. I took lessons 4 yrs ago and balked at the cost, but when they compared it to diving lessons and the need for safety instruction (as well as fragile equipment) I understood.
                      I was still scared until I had several months of kiting under my belt.
                      Most people who get lofted on land don't let go soon enought and flying big kites on land is a dangerous mistake to most of us. You can also easily destroy your kite.
                      In the water you need to know how to control your kite and do a self rescue. I have seen and heard of incredible kitemares and it never ceases to amaze me how inventive an out of control kite is in finding novel ways to try and kill you.
                      I herniated a disc in May when my kite inverted in 45mph winds and I couldn't haul it in for self-rescue. I had lines around my legs and my knife in my mouth and could have easily lost a limb from those lines.
                      This is an absolutely awesome sport and advances are being made yearly (never buy older kites) and we are seeing fewer and fewer deaths, but a lot of that is due to understanding the dangers of the sport.
                      It sounds like you plan on flying your kite regardless of our advice. Know your safety systems. Know how to release the chicken loop, flag the kite out, release the kite if shit hits the fan. Know how to rig and check your lines. Know the weather! A squall and doubling of the wind will send you into orbit.
                      MK

                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: kitesurf@yahoogroups.com [mailto:kitesurf@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of drmathieu
                      Sent: Friday, July 20, 2007 11:49 AM
                      To: kitesurf@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [ksurf] 2 non FAQ Beginner questions




                      To the group and Andy,

                      I have belonged to this group for a long time and this last post really
                      disturbed me. Andy, you say that we "hate you"? How do you know?
                      You have never met us.

                      I applaud your enthusiasm to begin to kiting but first things are first.
                      Lessons are a great idea. Awesome idea. I had a 2.8 meter Best trainer
                      that I flew for a year and a half and then shredded it from flying so
                      much. I then bought a HQ Beemer 3.6 meter. I flew both of these kites
                      for about 2 years before I took lessons (Real Kiteboarding). I learned
                      two things from flying my trainer and taking lessons:

                      1. FEAR

                      2. RESPECT

                      As a former Rugby player, I wanted a sport that would keep me in shape.
                      I am 6' 1" and I weigh 230 pounds. I love kiting. I just got back from
                      a trip to Hatteras NC. I took both my Cabrinha Bow Kites with me
                      (12Meter and 16Meter). Each session that I put the kites into the air
                      I had both fear and great respect for the kites.

                      I think you can find GREAT deals on Ebay. Saftey? My 3.6 Meter
                      trainer will drag me down the beach in about 20-25knots of wind. I
                      think I would want to have a harness on a 9Meter just in case I dropped
                      the kite and then the kite would go down the beach and hurt an innocent
                      bystander. I want to be in control of my equipment at all times. I
                      would never think of launching my kites without a harness. I have
                      launched unhooked before and then as soon as possible attached the
                      chicken loop. Both of my Cabrinha bow kites have almost instant
                      DEPOWER. Some of the old kites have almost no depower. Kiting has come
                      a LONG way in a short amount of years. I saw a guy get pulled onto
                      shore and hit a tree in 1999. Luckily the guy was not hurt that bad.
                      That right there showed me that these kites have a LOT of power.

                      We are not saying that we do not like you, just get lessons or learn
                      from someone experienced. Some of us have been there and done that!
                      learn from our mistakes. Kitemare.com is a great start.

                      I hope you have an awesome time kiteboarding and please email the group
                      if you need any advice.

                      I look forward to seeing you on the water,

                      Dr. Mathieu W. Sisk

                      Without one or the other you are going in the wrong direction.
                      , Steve <stevesgroups@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Hey Andy
                      >
                      > We're just trying to help you avoid disaster
                      >
                      > If you are determined - maybe you better describe your bar setup. Most
                      > 5 line bars will fly fine unhooked.
                      >
                      > Re: the idea of just dropping the bar - 1. make sure you have a safety
                      > leash that will fully depower the kite when you let go and practice
                      > letting go so it becomes automatic and 2. back in the old days there
                      > were many reports of guys who were unhooked and just holding the bars
                      > in their hands who did not let go even after multiple impacts. There
                      > seems to be some kind of psychological block to it. Probably because
                      by
                      > the time you know you need to let go you are already flying through
                      the
                      > air at speed.
                      >
                      > Hope this helps
                      >
                      > Steve
                      > Carson City, Nevada
                      >
                      > Andy wrote:
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Now, I got this 9 and I've decided to heed advice about harnesses so
                      > > as a result I don't want to wear a harness for safety's sake. But
                      the
                      > > only way I can see how to rig the kite is with the depower lines
                      that
                      > > connect to a harness.
                      > >
                      > > So, you can either let me figure it out myself or you can give me a
                      > > hint as to whether this kite is dependent on a harness.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Don't get me wrong, I believe there are very significant dangers.
                      But
                      > > I don't believe that that therefore means I have to pay significant
                      > > money to a professional who extols on and on about those dangers in
                      > > order to boost business. There are cheaper forms of education, and
                      > > other ways of increasing safety. What of people we've known in the
                      > > past who had no lessons and are here to tell the tale?
                      > >
                      > > I didn't expect to win this kite. So when it came though I thought,
                      > > another kite for training? I thought, if I get a non gusty day and
                      the
                      > > wind is light, being a 9 that should treat me a little more lightly
                      so
                      > > let's just get on with it. Let's just get on with it or it'll never
                      > > happen.
                      > >
                      > > Managed to get it up briefly last night with a friend holding the
                      > > harness attachment. Didn't seem too bad. And if it did take me, just
                      > > drop the bar. I'm no expert but is that really so hard?
                      > >
                      > > Anyway, you'll all hate me know so nice knowing you.
                      > >
                      > > - A
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      ----------------------------------------------------------
                      > >
                      > > No virus found in this incoming message.
                      > > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                      > > Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.10.9/907 - Release Date:
                      7/18/2007 3:30 PM
                      > >
                      >

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







                      DISCLAIMER:
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                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • loco 4 olas
                      Mate-I ve been surfing for over 30 years and won a coupla Aussie titles doing it-I ve been kiting for 6 years now-the dangers are incomparable-kiting is way
                      Message 10 of 12 , Jul 21 9:30 PM
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Mate-I've been surfing for over 30 years and won a coupla' Aussie titles doing it-I've been kiting for 6 years now-the dangers are incomparable-kiting is way more risky than anything but surfing Teahpou-I know, I do both.

                        And in kiting (unlike to a large extent in rock climbing) your fuck ups can have HUGE negative consequences for bystanders.

                        Let go of your ego and put your newbie self into a school to get the basics-you have NO idea.

                        Hey-I've been climbing sand hills-this weekend I'm off to El Cap with my running shoes and a bottle of Sprite-wanna' climb below me-duh!



                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: Andy
                        To: kitesurf@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Friday, July 20, 2007 5:16 AM
                        Subject: Re: [ksurf] 2 non FAQ Beginner questions


                        Well, I'm hopefully meeting up with 2 other guys who've just done the
                        same this weekend so we'll see what happens to all 3 of us.

                        I remember this stuff when I started surfing. `Always bring company`
                        `Get insurance` blah blah. The advice is good and took it onboard. But
                        what I loved was just driving off alone somewhere, knowing that my
                        life is my responsibility. Like a freeclimbing rock climber I love
                        that responsibility of one's own skin. I love knowing that if I slip,
                        it's my fault and mine alone. And when I nearly drowned I loved it. I
                        loved the thrill of being alive after something like that. I like
                        advice, nobody likes orders. Nanny culture, I own these bones. But if
                        I expect you to help me afterwards, now that's a different argument,
                        and one I heed.

                        Now, I got this 9 and I've decided to heed advice about harnesses so
                        as a result I don't want to wear a harness for safety's sake. But the
                        only way I can see how to rig the kite is with the depower lines that
                        connect to a harness.

                        So, you can either let me figure it out myself or you can give me a
                        hint as to whether this kite is dependent on a harness.

                        Don't get me wrong, I believe there are very significant dangers. But
                        I don't believe that that therefore means I have to pay significant
                        money to a professional who extols on and on about those dangers in
                        order to boost business. There are cheaper forms of education, and
                        other ways of increasing safety. What of people we've known in the
                        past who had no lessons and are here to tell the tale?

                        I didn't expect to win this kite. So when it came though I thought,
                        another kite for training? I thought, if I get a non gusty day and the
                        wind is light, being a 9 that should treat me a little more lightly so
                        let's just get on with it. Let's just get on with it or it'll never
                        happen.

                        Managed to get it up briefly last night with a friend holding the
                        harness attachment. Didn't seem too bad. And if it did take me, just
                        drop the bar. I'm no expert but is that really so hard?

                        Anyway, you'll all hate me know so nice knowing you.

                        - A





                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Jago Pearce
                        For me it s purely just the money, if it was £100 that would be fine ... From: loco 4 olas Reply-To: kitesurf@yahoogroups.com To:
                        Message 11 of 12 , Jul 22 8:35 AM
                        • 0 Attachment
                          For me it's purely just the money, if it was �100 that would be fine

                          ----Original Message Follows----
                          From: "loco 4 olas" <loco4olas@...>
                          Reply-To: kitesurf@yahoogroups.com
                          To: <kitesurf@yahoogroups.com>
                          Subject: Re: [ksurf] 2 non FAQ Beginner questions
                          Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2007 14:30:47 +1000
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                          Mate-I've been surfing for over 30 years and won a coupla' Aussie titles
                          doing it-I've been kiting for 6 years now-the dangers are
                          incomparable-kiting is way more risky than anything but surfing Teahpou-I
                          know, I do both.

                          And in kiting (unlike to a large extent in rock climbing) your fuck ups can
                          have HUGE negative consequences for bystanders.

                          Let go of your ego and put your newbie self into a school to get the
                          basics-you have NO idea.

                          Hey-I've been climbing sand hills-this weekend I'm off to El Cap with my
                          running shoes and a bottle of Sprite-wanna' climb below me-duh!



                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: Andy
                          To: kitesurf@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Friday, July 20, 2007 5:16 AM
                          Subject: Re: [ksurf] 2 non FAQ Beginner questions


                          Well, I'm hopefully meeting up with 2 other guys who've just done the
                          same this weekend so we'll see what happens to all 3 of us.

                          I remember this stuff when I started surfing. `Always bring company`
                          `Get insurance` blah blah. The advice is good and took it onboard. But
                          what I loved was just driving off alone somewhere, knowing that my
                          life is my responsibility. Like a freeclimbing rock climber I love
                          that responsibility of one's own skin. I love knowing that if I slip,
                          it's my fault and mine alone. And when I nearly drowned I loved it. I
                          loved the thrill of being alive after something like that. I like
                          advice, nobody likes orders. Nanny culture, I own these bones. But if
                          I expect you to help me afterwards, now that's a different argument,
                          and one I heed.

                          Now, I got this 9 and I've decided to heed advice about harnesses so
                          as a result I don't want to wear a harness for safety's sake. But the
                          only way I can see how to rig the kite is with the depower lines that
                          connect to a harness.

                          So, you can either let me figure it out myself or you can give me a
                          hint as to whether this kite is dependent on a harness.

                          Don't get me wrong, I believe there are very significant dangers. But
                          I don't believe that that therefore means I have to pay significant
                          money to a professional who extols on and on about those dangers in
                          order to boost business. There are cheaper forms of education, and
                          other ways of increasing safety. What of people we've known in the
                          past who had no lessons and are here to tell the tale?

                          I didn't expect to win this kite. So when it came though I thought,
                          another kite for training? I thought, if I get a non gusty day and the
                          wind is light, being a 9 that should treat me a little more lightly so
                          let's just get on with it. Let's just get on with it or it'll never
                          happen.

                          Managed to get it up briefly last night with a friend holding the
                          harness attachment. Didn't seem too bad. And if it did take me, just
                          drop the bar. I'm no expert but is that really so hard?

                          Anyway, you'll all hate me know so nice knowing you.

                          - A





                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                          _________________________________________________________________
                          Watch all 9 Live Earth concerts live on MSN. http://liveearth.uk.msn.com
                        • Jago Pearce
                          Any tips for finding reasonably priced lessons here in the UK? ... From: Klotz, Michael MD Reply-To: kitesurf@yahoogroups.com
                          Message 12 of 12 , Jul 22 8:41 AM
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Any tips for finding reasonably priced lessons here in the UK?

                            ----Original Message Follows----
                            From: "Klotz, Michael MD" <michael.klotz@...>
                            Reply-To: kitesurf@yahoogroups.com
                            To: <kitesurf@yahoogroups.com>
                            Subject: RE: [ksurf] 2 non FAQ Beginner questions
                            Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2007 12:28:33 -0700
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                            Thread-Topic: [ksurf] 2 non FAQ Beginner questions
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                            Actually these messages are out of concern for your safety. I started in
                            the very early days (2 line Naish AR 3.5) when there was no instruction
                            whatsoever. No boards for a while either. I had a lot of boat rescues and
                            finally a kitemare that almost killed me. I quit the sport until 4 yrs ago.
                            I am an adrenaline junky and my buddies figure I have used 8 of my 9
                            lives. I took lessons 4 yrs ago and balked at the cost, but when they
                            compared it to diving lessons and the need for safety instruction (as well
                            as fragile equipment) I understood.
                            I was still scared until I had several months of kiting under my belt.
                            Most people who get lofted on land don't let go soon enought and flying big
                            kites on land is a dangerous mistake to most of us. You can also easily
                            destroy your kite.
                            In the water you need to know how to control your kite and do a self rescue.
                            I have seen and heard of incredible kitemares and it never ceases to amaze
                            me how inventive an out of control kite is in finding novel ways to try and
                            kill you.
                            I herniated a disc in May when my kite inverted in 45mph winds and I
                            couldn't haul it in for self-rescue. I had lines around my legs and my
                            knife in my mouth and could have easily lost a limb from those lines.
                            This is an absolutely awesome sport and advances are being made yearly
                            (never buy older kites) and we are seeing fewer and fewer deaths, but a lot
                            of that is due to understanding the dangers of the sport.
                            It sounds like you plan on flying your kite regardless of our advice. Know
                            your safety systems. Know how to release the chicken loop, flag the kite
                            out, release the kite if shit hits the fan. Know how to rig and check your
                            lines. Know the weather! A squall and doubling of the wind will send you
                            into orbit.
                            MK

                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: kitesurf@yahoogroups.com [mailto:kitesurf@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of
                            drmathieu
                            Sent: Friday, July 20, 2007 11:49 AM
                            To: kitesurf@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: Re: [ksurf] 2 non FAQ Beginner questions




                            To the group and Andy,

                            I have belonged to this group for a long time and this last post really
                            disturbed me. Andy, you say that we "hate you"? How do you know?
                            You have never met us.

                            I applaud your enthusiasm to begin to kiting but first things are first.
                            Lessons are a great idea. Awesome idea. I had a 2.8 meter Best trainer
                            that I flew for a year and a half and then shredded it from flying so
                            much. I then bought a HQ Beemer 3.6 meter. I flew both of these kites
                            for about 2 years before I took lessons (Real Kiteboarding). I learned
                            two things from flying my trainer and taking lessons:

                            1. FEAR

                            2. RESPECT

                            As a former Rugby player, I wanted a sport that would keep me in shape.
                            I am 6' 1" and I weigh 230 pounds. I love kiting. I just got back from
                            a trip to Hatteras NC. I took both my Cabrinha Bow Kites with me
                            (12Meter and 16Meter). Each session that I put the kites into the air
                            I had both fear and great respect for the kites.

                            I think you can find GREAT deals on Ebay. Saftey? My 3.6 Meter
                            trainer will drag me down the beach in about 20-25knots of wind. I
                            think I would want to have a harness on a 9Meter just in case I dropped
                            the kite and then the kite would go down the beach and hurt an innocent
                            bystander. I want to be in control of my equipment at all times. I
                            would never think of launching my kites without a harness. I have
                            launched unhooked before and then as soon as possible attached the
                            chicken loop. Both of my Cabrinha bow kites have almost instant
                            DEPOWER. Some of the old kites have almost no depower. Kiting has come
                            a LONG way in a short amount of years. I saw a guy get pulled onto
                            shore and hit a tree in 1999. Luckily the guy was not hurt that bad.
                            That right there showed me that these kites have a LOT of power.

                            We are not saying that we do not like you, just get lessons or learn
                            from someone experienced. Some of us have been there and done that!
                            learn from our mistakes. Kitemare.com is a great start.

                            I hope you have an awesome time kiteboarding and please email the group
                            if you need any advice.

                            I look forward to seeing you on the water,

                            Dr. Mathieu W. Sisk

                            Without one or the other you are going in the wrong direction.
                            , Steve <stevesgroups@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Hey Andy
                            >
                            > We're just trying to help you avoid disaster
                            >
                            > If you are determined - maybe you better describe your bar setup. Most
                            > 5 line bars will fly fine unhooked.
                            >
                            > Re: the idea of just dropping the bar - 1. make sure you have a safety
                            > leash that will fully depower the kite when you let go and practice
                            > letting go so it becomes automatic and 2. back in the old days there
                            > were many reports of guys who were unhooked and just holding the bars
                            > in their hands who did not let go even after multiple impacts. There
                            > seems to be some kind of psychological block to it. Probably because
                            by
                            > the time you know you need to let go you are already flying through
                            the
                            > air at speed.
                            >
                            > Hope this helps
                            >
                            > Steve
                            > Carson City, Nevada
                            >
                            > Andy wrote:
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > Now, I got this 9 and I've decided to heed advice about harnesses so
                            > > as a result I don't want to wear a harness for safety's sake. But
                            the
                            > > only way I can see how to rig the kite is with the depower lines
                            that
                            > > connect to a harness.
                            > >
                            > > So, you can either let me figure it out myself or you can give me a
                            > > hint as to whether this kite is dependent on a harness.
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > Don't get me wrong, I believe there are very significant dangers.
                            But
                            > > I don't believe that that therefore means I have to pay significant
                            > > money to a professional who extols on and on about those dangers in
                            > > order to boost business. There are cheaper forms of education, and
                            > > other ways of increasing safety. What of people we've known in the
                            > > past who had no lessons and are here to tell the tale?
                            > >
                            > > I didn't expect to win this kite. So when it came though I thought,
                            > > another kite for training? I thought, if I get a non gusty day and
                            the
                            > > wind is light, being a 9 that should treat me a little more lightly
                            so
                            > > let's just get on with it. Let's just get on with it or it'll never
                            > > happen.
                            > >
                            > > Managed to get it up briefly last night with a friend holding the
                            > > harness attachment. Didn't seem too bad. And if it did take me, just
                            > > drop the bar. I'm no expert but is that really so hard?
                            > >
                            > > Anyway, you'll all hate me know so nice knowing you.
                            > >
                            > > - A
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            ----------------------------------------------------------
                            > >
                            > > No virus found in this incoming message.
                            > > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                            > > Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.10.9/907 - Release Date:
                            7/18/2007 3:30 PM
                            > >
                            >

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