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Re: [ksurf] Flat kite low end & trailing edge bridle

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  • CCKiteboarder@hotpop.com
    Hi Hung I ve been wondering about the range comparison between flat kites and C Kites. Was thinking that maybe they had the power of equivalent foils -
    Message 1 of 12 , Jul 9, 2006
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      Hi Hung

      I've been wondering about the range comparison between flat kites and C
      Kites. Was thinking that maybe they had the power of equivalent foils -
      projected area. I had not considered the lack of trailing edge bridling.

      Glad to read this b4 making a purchase. Your reasoning seems right on.

      Why do you say top end is only equal to a 12 and not even smaller? Seems
      like if you can totally luff the kite it should be equiv to much smaller 3
      or 5 m? Is there still that much pull when totally luffed?

      --
      Steve
      Carson City, Nevada, USA



      On Sat, 08 Jul 2006 20:18:48 -0700, <hungvu2000@...> wrote:

      > I have been using flat kite extensively and playing with the kite design
      > program for flat kite in the last few months and notice that the flat
      > kite low end compare to a classic C kite of the same surface is not as
      > much as its high end compared to the same kite.
      >
      > So a 16m flat kite has only the same low end power of a 17 or 18m C kite
      > (don't listen to those marketing hypes) but can easily match a 12m C
      > kite at the top end if needed.
      >
      > The main reason is due to its lack of bridle on the trailing edge of the
      > kite that deforms the trailing edge and then eventually the whole kite
      > when the bar is pulled toward the kiter.
      >
      > Someone or some manufacturer should try to experiment with a simple
      > trailing edge bridle (can be as complex as the bridle on the leading
      > edge). With current flat kites, pulling on the bar will make the
      > trailing edge arc and eventually turned into a U shape (similar to a
      > classic kite, therefore distort the shape of the flat kite). By having
      > a trailing edge bridle (if rigged properly), the kite may be able to
      > keep its normal trailing edge shape and therefore keep its optimum shape.
      >
      > P.S., Hopefully none can patent the "trailing edge" bridle idea now that
      > it is posted here, the same way that the bridle on the leading edge
      > concept was discussed here back in 2003 in this thread:
      > http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/kitesurf/message/67021 (a direct
      > quote from one of the messages in the thread: "This can probably be
      > achieved fairly easily with some integrated bridle system and some
      > connection points closer to the center") .
      >
      > Hung.
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >
      > If you are new to kitesurfing, please visit
      > http://www.KitesurfingSchool.org/faqs.htm for the answers
      > to the most frequently asked questions.
      >
      > === to unsubscribe, please send an email to
      > kitesurf-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com ===
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
    • hungvu2000@rogers.com
      You can depower a 16m flat kite down to almost a 10m or smaller but it won t be sweet (not as much fun) as you will have more drag - too much kite for too much
      Message 2 of 12 , Jul 11, 2006
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        You can depower a 16m flat kite down to almost a 10m or smaller but it
        won't be sweet (not as much fun) as you will have more drag - too much
        kite for too much wind (more drag means less upwind and not jumping as
        high). So a 16m flat kite can replace a 12m classic kite but smaller
        than that you want to switch to a smaller kite (any flat kite in the
        range of 10m to 14m will work sweet).

        A 9m and 16m flat kite combination will work but not as sweet as a 7m,
        11m and 16m flat kite combination (and all wind range too - I was using
        a 5m flat kite in wind gusting to 50 knots and still have more depower
        capacity to spare)

        Hung.

        CCKiteboarder@... wrote:

        >Hi Hung
        >
        >I've been wondering about the range comparison between flat kites and C
        >Kites. Was thinking that maybe they had the power of equivalent foils -
        >projected area. I had not considered the lack of trailing edge bridling.
        >
        >Glad to read this b4 making a purchase. Your reasoning seems right on.
        >
        >Why do you say top end is only equal to a 12 and not even smaller? Seems
        >like if you can totally luff the kite it should be equiv to much smaller 3
        >or 5 m? Is there still that much pull when totally luffed?
        >
        >
        >
      • Dean Crowell
        As a new-comer to power kiting, do you suggest mastering a 4-line bar and not relying on the 5th line for relaunching? As a windsurfer of 23 years, I see many
        Message 3 of 12 , Jul 11, 2006
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          As a new-comer to power kiting, do you suggest mastering a 4-line bar
          and not relying on the 5th line for relaunching? As a windsurfer of
          23 years, I see many new products designed to make sailboarding
          easier, while fully learning some basics (water-starting, short-board
          balance, for example) is really the way to go in my opinion. Some of
          the guys I see shredding are on basic 4-line LEI's w/ no frills.

          Thanks, Dean

          On Jul 11, 2006, at 4:15 PM, hungvu2000@... wrote:
        • hungvu2000@rogers.com
          Personally I never like 5th line (too many lines) and never have to use it in the last 8 years. P.S. Line tangling is a factorial functions: 1 line = 1, 2
          Message 4 of 12 , Jul 11, 2006
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            Personally I never like 5th line (too many lines) and never have to use
            it in the last 8 years.

            P.S. Line tangling is a factorial functions: 1 line = 1, 2 lines = 2, 3
            lines = 6, 4 lines = 24, 5 lines = 120 ways to tangle.

            Hung.

            Dean Crowell wrote:

            >As a new-comer to power kiting, do you suggest mastering a 4-line bar
            >and not relying on the 5th line for relaunching? As a windsurfer of
            >23 years, I see many new products designed to make sailboarding
            >easier, while fully learning some basics (water-starting, short-board
            >balance, for example) is really the way to go in my opinion. Some of
            >the guys I see shredding are on basic 4-line LEI's w/ no frills.
            >
            >Thanks, Dean
            >
            >On Jul 11, 2006, at 4:15 PM, hungvu2000@... wrote:
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
          • Lex Lissauer
            This year: Yes, useful. Next year the whole fast swimming towards the kite will probably be a thing of the past. It is comparable to the rope start with
            Message 5 of 12 , Jul 11, 2006
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              This year: Yes, useful. Next year the whole "fast swimming towards the kite"
              will probably be a thing of the past. It is comparable to the rope start
              with windsurfing: With a small board it is an extreme balance exercise and
              nice if you can do it, but hardly useful.
              I would let it depend on the kites I was going to use.
              Also notice that the bigger the kites, the harder they relaunch, so I would
              recommend a fifth line for all sizes above 12m².


              On 7/12/06, Dean Crowell <dean@...> wrote:
              >
              > As a new-comer to power kiting, do you suggest mastering a 4-line bar
              > and not relying on the 5th line for relaunching? As a windsurfer of
              > 23 years, I see many new products designed to make sailboarding
              > easier, while fully learning some basics (water-starting, short-board
              > balance, for example) is really the way to go in my opinion. Some of
              > the guys I see shredding are on basic 4-line LEI's w/ no frills.
              >
              > Thanks, Dean
              >
              > On Jul 11, 2006, at 4:15 PM, hungvu2000@...<hungvu2000%40rogers.com>wrote:
              >
              >
              >


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • CCKiteboarder@hotpop.com
              If I was learning today I would buy a bow kite and avoid a 5th line. I currently use C kites and have 5th lines on all of them but not primarily as an aid to
              Message 6 of 12 , Jul 12, 2006
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                If I was learning today I would buy a bow kite and avoid a 5th line.

                I currently use C kites and have 5th lines on all of them but not
                primarily as an aid to relaunch. For me the advantage of a 5th line is
                Tea Bag Protection. If I kited where that was not an issue I would fly my
                Cs on 4 lines cuz I can get them relaunched.

                BTW lower aspect kites relaunch real easy - hard to keep them on the
                water. so if you want C kites and relaunch is the issue just get low
                aspect ratio kites.

                But if I was learning today and know what I know I'd buy one of the flat
                inflatables for sure. Not sure which one though.


                --
                Steve
                Carson City, Nevada, USA

                On Tue, 11 Jul 2006 15:08:04 -0700, Dean Crowell <dean@...>
                wrote:

                > As a new-comer to power kiting, do you suggest mastering a 4-line bar
                > and not relying on the 5th line for relaunching? As a windsurfer of
                > 23 years, I see many new products designed to make sailboarding
                > easier, while fully learning some basics (water-starting, short-board
                > balance, for example) is really the way to go in my opinion. Some of
                > the guys I see shredding are on basic 4-line LEI's w/ no frills.
                >
                > Thanks, Dean
                >
                > On Jul 11, 2006, at 4:15 PM, hungvu2000@... wrote:
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > If you are new to kitesurfing, please visit
                > http://www.KitesurfingSchool.org/faqs.htm for the answers
                > to the most frequently asked questions.
                >
                > === to unsubscribe, please send an email to
                > kitesurf-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com ===
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
              • Yuri
                What do you mean speaking - the advantage of a 5th line is Tea Bag Protection? ... line is ... fly my ... the ... low ... flat ... bar ... of ... board ... of
                Message 7 of 12 , Jul 12, 2006
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                  What do you mean speaking - the advantage of a 5th line is
                  Tea Bag Protection?


                  --- In kitesurf@yahoogroups.com, CCKiteboarder@... wrote:
                  >
                  > If I was learning today I would buy a bow kite and avoid a 5th line.
                  >
                  > I currently use C kites and have 5th lines on all of them but not
                  > primarily as an aid to relaunch. For me the advantage of a 5th
                  line is
                  > Tea Bag Protection. If I kited where that was not an issue I would
                  fly my
                  > Cs on 4 lines cuz I can get them relaunched.
                  >
                  > BTW lower aspect kites relaunch real easy - hard to keep them on
                  the
                  > water. so if you want C kites and relaunch is the issue just get
                  low
                  > aspect ratio kites.
                  >
                  > But if I was learning today and know what I know I'd buy one of the
                  flat
                  > inflatables for sure. Not sure which one though.
                  >
                  >
                  > --
                  > Steve
                  > Carson City, Nevada, USA
                  >
                  > On Tue, 11 Jul 2006 15:08:04 -0700, Dean Crowell <dean@...>
                  > wrote:
                  >
                  > > As a new-comer to power kiting, do you suggest mastering a 4-line
                  bar
                  > > and not relying on the 5th line for relaunching? As a windsurfer
                  of
                  > > 23 years, I see many new products designed to make sailboarding
                  > > easier, while fully learning some basics (water-starting, short-
                  board
                  > > balance, for example) is really the way to go in my opinion. Some
                  of
                  > > the guys I see shredding are on basic 4-line LEI's w/ no frills.
                  > >
                  > > Thanks, Dean
                  > >
                  > > On Jul 11, 2006, at 4:15 PM, hungvu2000@... wrote:
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > If you are new to kitesurfing, please visit
                  > > http://www.KitesurfingSchool.org/faqs.htm for the answers
                  > > to the most frequently asked questions.
                  > >
                  > > === to unsubscribe, please send an email to
                  > > kitesurf-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com ===
                  > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                • Yuri
                  What do you mean speaking - the advantage of a 5th line is Tea Bag Protection? ... line is ... fly my ... the ... low ... flat ... bar ... of ... board ... of
                  Message 8 of 12 , Jul 12, 2006
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                    What do you mean speaking - the advantage of a 5th line is
                    Tea Bag Protection?


                    --- In kitesurf@yahoogroups.com, CCKiteboarder@... wrote:
                    >
                    > If I was learning today I would buy a bow kite and avoid a 5th line.
                    >
                    > I currently use C kites and have 5th lines on all of them but not
                    > primarily as an aid to relaunch. For me the advantage of a 5th
                    line is
                    > Tea Bag Protection. If I kited where that was not an issue I would
                    fly my
                    > Cs on 4 lines cuz I can get them relaunched.
                    >
                    > BTW lower aspect kites relaunch real easy - hard to keep them on
                    the
                    > water. so if you want C kites and relaunch is the issue just get
                    low
                    > aspect ratio kites.
                    >
                    > But if I was learning today and know what I know I'd buy one of the
                    flat
                    > inflatables for sure. Not sure which one though.
                    >
                    >
                    > --
                    > Steve
                    > Carson City, Nevada, USA
                    >
                    > On Tue, 11 Jul 2006 15:08:04 -0700, Dean Crowell <dean@...>
                    > wrote:
                    >
                    > > As a new-comer to power kiting, do you suggest mastering a 4-line
                    bar
                    > > and not relying on the 5th line for relaunching? As a windsurfer
                    of
                    > > 23 years, I see many new products designed to make sailboarding
                    > > easier, while fully learning some basics (water-starting, short-
                    board
                    > > balance, for example) is really the way to go in my opinion. Some
                    of
                    > > the guys I see shredding are on basic 4-line LEI's w/ no frills.
                    > >
                    > > Thanks, Dean
                    > >
                    > > On Jul 11, 2006, at 4:15 PM, hungvu2000@... wrote:
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > If you are new to kitesurfing, please visit
                    > > http://www.KitesurfingSchool.org/faqs.htm for the answers
                    > > to the most frequently asked questions.
                    > >
                    > > === to unsubscribe, please send an email to
                    > > kitesurf-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com ===
                    > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                  • Dean Crowell
                    Thanks Steve - Very helpful! Dean ... Dean Crowell Asset Manager Artspace Projects, Inc. 250 3rd Avenue North Suite 500 Minneapolis, Minnesota 55401
                    Message 9 of 12 , Jul 12, 2006
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                      Thanks Steve - Very helpful! Dean
                      On Jul 12, 2006, at 2:04 AM, CCKiteboarder@... wrote:

                      > If I was learning today I would buy a bow kite and avoid a 5th line.
                      >
                      > I currently use C kites and have 5th lines on all of them but not
                      > primarily as an aid to relaunch. For me the advantage of a 5th
                      > line is
                      > Tea Bag Protection. If I kited where that was not an issue I would
                      > fly my
                      > Cs on 4 lines cuz I can get them relaunched.
                      >
                      > BTW lower aspect kites relaunch real easy - hard to keep them on the
                      > water. so if you want C kites and relaunch is the issue just get low
                      > aspect ratio kites.
                      >
                      > But if I was learning today and know what I know I'd buy one of the
                      > flat
                      > inflatables for sure. Not sure which one though.
                      >
                      >
                      > --
                      > Steve
                      > Carson City, Nevada, USA
                      >
                      > On Tue, 11 Jul 2006 15:08:04 -0700, Dean Crowell
                      > <dean@...>
                      > wrote:
                      >
                      >> As a new-comer to power kiting, do you suggest mastering a 4-line bar
                      >> and not relying on the 5th line for relaunching? As a windsurfer of
                      >> 23 years, I see many new products designed to make sailboarding
                      >> easier, while fully learning some basics (water-starting, short-board
                      >> balance, for example) is really the way to go in my opinion. Some of
                      >> the guys I see shredding are on basic 4-line LEI's w/ no frills.
                      >>
                      >> Thanks, Dean
                      >>
                      >> On Jul 11, 2006, at 4:15 PM, hungvu2000@... wrote:
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >> If you are new to kitesurfing, please visit
                      >> http://www.KitesurfingSchool.org/faqs.htm for the answers
                      >> to the most frequently asked questions.
                      >>
                      >> === to unsubscribe, please send an email to
                      >> kitesurf-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com ===
                      >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > If you are new to kitesurfing, please visit
                      > http://www.KitesurfingSchool.org/faqs.htm for the answers
                      > to the most frequently asked questions.
                      >
                      > === to unsubscribe, please send an email to kitesurf-
                      > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com ===
                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >

                      Dean Crowell
                      Asset Manager
                      Artspace Projects, Inc.
                      250 3rd Avenue North
                      Suite 500
                      Minneapolis, Minnesota 55401
                      dean@...
                      Direct Dial (612) 465-0232



                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • CCKiteboarder@hotpop.com
                      Tea Bagging is what happens when the wind gets too high for the kite you are using after you go out. It is like lofting but out on the water. Your body is the
                      Message 10 of 12 , Jul 12, 2006
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                        Tea Bagging is what happens when the wind gets too high for the kite you
                        are using after you go out.

                        It is like lofting but out on the water. Your body is the tea bag and the
                        wind gods are holding the little paper tab at the other end of the string
                        dunking you as they please : )

                        If the wind comes up a lot after you go out you may have little or no
                        control for a while. With a regular C Kite you can only depower so much
                        and still have the ability to relaunch later. A 5th line allows more
                        depower - close to full. With my set up I can throw the bar, let the kite
                        sit downwind for awhile and then when/if the wind drops off enough,
                        relaunch and continue.

                        This scenario happens enough here that I lke the option.


                        --
                        Steve
                        Carson City, Nevada, USA



                        On Wed, 12 Jul 2006 04:59:30 -0700, Yuri <drive@...> wrote:

                        >
                        > What do you mean speaking - the advantage of a 5th line is
                        > Tea Bag Protection?
                        >
                        >
                        > --- In kitesurf@yahoogroups.com, CCKiteboarder@... wrote:
                        >>
                        >> If I was learning today I would buy a bow kite and avoid a 5th line.
                        >>
                        >> I currently use C kites and have 5th lines on all of them but not
                        >> primarily as an aid to relaunch. For me the advantage of a 5th
                        > line is
                        >> Tea Bag Protection. If I kited where that was not an issue I would
                        > fly my
                        >> Cs on 4 lines cuz I can get them relaunched.
                        >>
                        >> BTW lower aspect kites relaunch real easy - hard to keep them on
                        > the
                        >> water. so if you want C kites and relaunch is the issue just get
                        > low
                        >> aspect ratio kites.
                        >>
                        >> But if I was learning today and know what I know I'd buy one of the
                        > flat
                        >> inflatables for sure. Not sure which one though.
                        >>
                        >>
                        >> --
                        >> Steve
                        >> Carson City, Nevada, USA
                        >>
                        >> On Tue, 11 Jul 2006 15:08:04 -0700, Dean Crowell <dean@...>
                        >> wrote:
                        >>
                        >> > As a new-comer to power kiting, do you suggest mastering a 4-line
                        > bar
                        >> > and not relying on the 5th line for relaunching? As a windsurfer
                        > of
                        >> > 23 years, I see many new products designed to make sailboarding
                        >> > easier, while fully learning some basics (water-starting, short-
                        > board
                        >> > balance, for example) is really the way to go in my opinion. Some
                        > of
                        >> > the guys I see shredding are on basic 4-line LEI's w/ no frills.
                        >> >
                        >> > Thanks, Dean
                        >> >
                        >> > On Jul 11, 2006, at 4:15 PM, hungvu2000@... wrote:
                        >> >
                        >> >
                        >> >
                      • Yuri
                        ... Thanks Steve. Good explanation. I apply the 5th line in the same way when the wind is too strong and gusty. But still i use the line for relaunching.
                        Message 11 of 12 , Jul 13, 2006
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                          --- In kitesurf@yahoogroups.com, CCKiteboarder@... wrote:

                          Thanks Steve. Good explanation. I apply the 5th line in the same way
                          when the wind is too strong and gusty. But still i use the line for
                          relaunching. Mostly when I do snowkiting.

                          Yuri.






                          >
                          > Tea Bagging is what happens when the wind gets too high for the
                          kite you
                          > are using after you go out.
                          >
                          > It is like lofting but out on the water. Your body is the tea bag
                          and the
                          > wind gods are holding the little paper tab at the other end of the
                          string
                          > dunking you as they please : )
                          >
                          > If the wind comes up a lot after you go out you may have little or
                          no
                          > control for a while. With a regular C Kite you can only depower so
                          much
                          > and still have the ability to relaunch later. A 5th line allows
                          more
                          > depower - close to full. With my set up I can throw the bar, let
                          the kite
                          > sit downwind for awhile and then when/if the wind drops off
                          enough,
                          > relaunch and continue.
                          >
                          > This scenario happens enough here that I lke the option.
                          >
                          >
                          > --
                          > Steve
                          > Carson City, Nevada, USA
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