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Flat kite low end & trailing edge bridle

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  • hungvu2000@rogers.com
    I have been using flat kite extensively and playing with the kite design program for flat kite in the last few months and notice that the flat kite low end
    Message 1 of 12 , Jul 8, 2006
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      I have been using flat kite extensively and playing with the kite design
      program for flat kite in the last few months and notice that the flat
      kite low end compare to a classic C kite of the same surface is not as
      much as its high end compared to the same kite.

      So a 16m flat kite has only the same low end power of a 17 or 18m C kite
      (don't listen to those marketing hypes) but can easily match a 12m C
      kite at the top end if needed.

      The main reason is due to its lack of bridle on the trailing edge of the
      kite that deforms the trailing edge and then eventually the whole kite
      when the bar is pulled toward the kiter.

      Someone or some manufacturer should try to experiment with a simple
      trailing edge bridle (can be as complex as the bridle on the leading
      edge). With current flat kites, pulling on the bar will make the
      trailing edge arc and eventually turned into a U shape (similar to a
      classic kite, therefore distort the shape of the flat kite). By having
      a trailing edge bridle (if rigged properly), the kite may be able to
      keep its normal trailing edge shape and therefore keep its optimum shape.

      P.S., Hopefully none can patent the "trailing edge" bridle idea now that
      it is posted here, the same way that the bridle on the leading edge
      concept was discussed here back in 2003 in this thread:
      http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/kitesurf/message/67021 (a direct
      quote from one of the messages in the thread: "This can probably be
      achieved fairly easily with some integrated bridle system and some
      connection points closer to the center") .

      Hung.


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • CCKiteboarder@hotpop.com
      Hi Hung I ve been wondering about the range comparison between flat kites and C Kites. Was thinking that maybe they had the power of equivalent foils -
      Message 2 of 12 , Jul 9, 2006
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        Hi Hung

        I've been wondering about the range comparison between flat kites and C
        Kites. Was thinking that maybe they had the power of equivalent foils -
        projected area. I had not considered the lack of trailing edge bridling.

        Glad to read this b4 making a purchase. Your reasoning seems right on.

        Why do you say top end is only equal to a 12 and not even smaller? Seems
        like if you can totally luff the kite it should be equiv to much smaller 3
        or 5 m? Is there still that much pull when totally luffed?

        --
        Steve
        Carson City, Nevada, USA



        On Sat, 08 Jul 2006 20:18:48 -0700, <hungvu2000@...> wrote:

        > I have been using flat kite extensively and playing with the kite design
        > program for flat kite in the last few months and notice that the flat
        > kite low end compare to a classic C kite of the same surface is not as
        > much as its high end compared to the same kite.
        >
        > So a 16m flat kite has only the same low end power of a 17 or 18m C kite
        > (don't listen to those marketing hypes) but can easily match a 12m C
        > kite at the top end if needed.
        >
        > The main reason is due to its lack of bridle on the trailing edge of the
        > kite that deforms the trailing edge and then eventually the whole kite
        > when the bar is pulled toward the kiter.
        >
        > Someone or some manufacturer should try to experiment with a simple
        > trailing edge bridle (can be as complex as the bridle on the leading
        > edge). With current flat kites, pulling on the bar will make the
        > trailing edge arc and eventually turned into a U shape (similar to a
        > classic kite, therefore distort the shape of the flat kite). By having
        > a trailing edge bridle (if rigged properly), the kite may be able to
        > keep its normal trailing edge shape and therefore keep its optimum shape.
        >
        > P.S., Hopefully none can patent the "trailing edge" bridle idea now that
        > it is posted here, the same way that the bridle on the leading edge
        > concept was discussed here back in 2003 in this thread:
        > http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/kitesurf/message/67021 (a direct
        > quote from one of the messages in the thread: "This can probably be
        > achieved fairly easily with some integrated bridle system and some
        > connection points closer to the center") .
        >
        > Hung.
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >
        > If you are new to kitesurfing, please visit
        > http://www.KitesurfingSchool.org/faqs.htm for the answers
        > to the most frequently asked questions.
        >
        > === to unsubscribe, please send an email to
        > kitesurf-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com ===
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
      • hungvu2000@rogers.com
        You can depower a 16m flat kite down to almost a 10m or smaller but it won t be sweet (not as much fun) as you will have more drag - too much kite for too much
        Message 3 of 12 , Jul 11, 2006
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          You can depower a 16m flat kite down to almost a 10m or smaller but it
          won't be sweet (not as much fun) as you will have more drag - too much
          kite for too much wind (more drag means less upwind and not jumping as
          high). So a 16m flat kite can replace a 12m classic kite but smaller
          than that you want to switch to a smaller kite (any flat kite in the
          range of 10m to 14m will work sweet).

          A 9m and 16m flat kite combination will work but not as sweet as a 7m,
          11m and 16m flat kite combination (and all wind range too - I was using
          a 5m flat kite in wind gusting to 50 knots and still have more depower
          capacity to spare)

          Hung.

          CCKiteboarder@... wrote:

          >Hi Hung
          >
          >I've been wondering about the range comparison between flat kites and C
          >Kites. Was thinking that maybe they had the power of equivalent foils -
          >projected area. I had not considered the lack of trailing edge bridling.
          >
          >Glad to read this b4 making a purchase. Your reasoning seems right on.
          >
          >Why do you say top end is only equal to a 12 and not even smaller? Seems
          >like if you can totally luff the kite it should be equiv to much smaller 3
          >or 5 m? Is there still that much pull when totally luffed?
          >
          >
          >
        • Dean Crowell
          As a new-comer to power kiting, do you suggest mastering a 4-line bar and not relying on the 5th line for relaunching? As a windsurfer of 23 years, I see many
          Message 4 of 12 , Jul 11, 2006
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            As a new-comer to power kiting, do you suggest mastering a 4-line bar
            and not relying on the 5th line for relaunching? As a windsurfer of
            23 years, I see many new products designed to make sailboarding
            easier, while fully learning some basics (water-starting, short-board
            balance, for example) is really the way to go in my opinion. Some of
            the guys I see shredding are on basic 4-line LEI's w/ no frills.

            Thanks, Dean

            On Jul 11, 2006, at 4:15 PM, hungvu2000@... wrote:
          • hungvu2000@rogers.com
            Personally I never like 5th line (too many lines) and never have to use it in the last 8 years. P.S. Line tangling is a factorial functions: 1 line = 1, 2
            Message 5 of 12 , Jul 11, 2006
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              Personally I never like 5th line (too many lines) and never have to use
              it in the last 8 years.

              P.S. Line tangling is a factorial functions: 1 line = 1, 2 lines = 2, 3
              lines = 6, 4 lines = 24, 5 lines = 120 ways to tangle.

              Hung.

              Dean Crowell wrote:

              >As a new-comer to power kiting, do you suggest mastering a 4-line bar
              >and not relying on the 5th line for relaunching? As a windsurfer of
              >23 years, I see many new products designed to make sailboarding
              >easier, while fully learning some basics (water-starting, short-board
              >balance, for example) is really the way to go in my opinion. Some of
              >the guys I see shredding are on basic 4-line LEI's w/ no frills.
              >
              >Thanks, Dean
              >
              >On Jul 11, 2006, at 4:15 PM, hungvu2000@... wrote:
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
            • Lex Lissauer
              This year: Yes, useful. Next year the whole fast swimming towards the kite will probably be a thing of the past. It is comparable to the rope start with
              Message 6 of 12 , Jul 11, 2006
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                This year: Yes, useful. Next year the whole "fast swimming towards the kite"
                will probably be a thing of the past. It is comparable to the rope start
                with windsurfing: With a small board it is an extreme balance exercise and
                nice if you can do it, but hardly useful.
                I would let it depend on the kites I was going to use.
                Also notice that the bigger the kites, the harder they relaunch, so I would
                recommend a fifth line for all sizes above 12m².


                On 7/12/06, Dean Crowell <dean@...> wrote:
                >
                > As a new-comer to power kiting, do you suggest mastering a 4-line bar
                > and not relying on the 5th line for relaunching? As a windsurfer of
                > 23 years, I see many new products designed to make sailboarding
                > easier, while fully learning some basics (water-starting, short-board
                > balance, for example) is really the way to go in my opinion. Some of
                > the guys I see shredding are on basic 4-line LEI's w/ no frills.
                >
                > Thanks, Dean
                >
                > On Jul 11, 2006, at 4:15 PM, hungvu2000@...<hungvu2000%40rogers.com>wrote:
                >
                >
                >


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • CCKiteboarder@hotpop.com
                If I was learning today I would buy a bow kite and avoid a 5th line. I currently use C kites and have 5th lines on all of them but not primarily as an aid to
                Message 7 of 12 , Jul 12, 2006
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                  If I was learning today I would buy a bow kite and avoid a 5th line.

                  I currently use C kites and have 5th lines on all of them but not
                  primarily as an aid to relaunch. For me the advantage of a 5th line is
                  Tea Bag Protection. If I kited where that was not an issue I would fly my
                  Cs on 4 lines cuz I can get them relaunched.

                  BTW lower aspect kites relaunch real easy - hard to keep them on the
                  water. so if you want C kites and relaunch is the issue just get low
                  aspect ratio kites.

                  But if I was learning today and know what I know I'd buy one of the flat
                  inflatables for sure. Not sure which one though.


                  --
                  Steve
                  Carson City, Nevada, USA

                  On Tue, 11 Jul 2006 15:08:04 -0700, Dean Crowell <dean@...>
                  wrote:

                  > As a new-comer to power kiting, do you suggest mastering a 4-line bar
                  > and not relying on the 5th line for relaunching? As a windsurfer of
                  > 23 years, I see many new products designed to make sailboarding
                  > easier, while fully learning some basics (water-starting, short-board
                  > balance, for example) is really the way to go in my opinion. Some of
                  > the guys I see shredding are on basic 4-line LEI's w/ no frills.
                  >
                  > Thanks, Dean
                  >
                  > On Jul 11, 2006, at 4:15 PM, hungvu2000@... wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > If you are new to kitesurfing, please visit
                  > http://www.KitesurfingSchool.org/faqs.htm for the answers
                  > to the most frequently asked questions.
                  >
                  > === to unsubscribe, please send an email to
                  > kitesurf-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com ===
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                • Yuri
                  What do you mean speaking - the advantage of a 5th line is Tea Bag Protection? ... line is ... fly my ... the ... low ... flat ... bar ... of ... board ... of
                  Message 8 of 12 , Jul 12, 2006
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                    What do you mean speaking - the advantage of a 5th line is
                    Tea Bag Protection?


                    --- In kitesurf@yahoogroups.com, CCKiteboarder@... wrote:
                    >
                    > If I was learning today I would buy a bow kite and avoid a 5th line.
                    >
                    > I currently use C kites and have 5th lines on all of them but not
                    > primarily as an aid to relaunch. For me the advantage of a 5th
                    line is
                    > Tea Bag Protection. If I kited where that was not an issue I would
                    fly my
                    > Cs on 4 lines cuz I can get them relaunched.
                    >
                    > BTW lower aspect kites relaunch real easy - hard to keep them on
                    the
                    > water. so if you want C kites and relaunch is the issue just get
                    low
                    > aspect ratio kites.
                    >
                    > But if I was learning today and know what I know I'd buy one of the
                    flat
                    > inflatables for sure. Not sure which one though.
                    >
                    >
                    > --
                    > Steve
                    > Carson City, Nevada, USA
                    >
                    > On Tue, 11 Jul 2006 15:08:04 -0700, Dean Crowell <dean@...>
                    > wrote:
                    >
                    > > As a new-comer to power kiting, do you suggest mastering a 4-line
                    bar
                    > > and not relying on the 5th line for relaunching? As a windsurfer
                    of
                    > > 23 years, I see many new products designed to make sailboarding
                    > > easier, while fully learning some basics (water-starting, short-
                    board
                    > > balance, for example) is really the way to go in my opinion. Some
                    of
                    > > the guys I see shredding are on basic 4-line LEI's w/ no frills.
                    > >
                    > > Thanks, Dean
                    > >
                    > > On Jul 11, 2006, at 4:15 PM, hungvu2000@... wrote:
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > If you are new to kitesurfing, please visit
                    > > http://www.KitesurfingSchool.org/faqs.htm for the answers
                    > > to the most frequently asked questions.
                    > >
                    > > === to unsubscribe, please send an email to
                    > > kitesurf-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com ===
                    > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                  • Yuri
                    What do you mean speaking - the advantage of a 5th line is Tea Bag Protection? ... line is ... fly my ... the ... low ... flat ... bar ... of ... board ... of
                    Message 9 of 12 , Jul 12, 2006
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                      What do you mean speaking - the advantage of a 5th line is
                      Tea Bag Protection?


                      --- In kitesurf@yahoogroups.com, CCKiteboarder@... wrote:
                      >
                      > If I was learning today I would buy a bow kite and avoid a 5th line.
                      >
                      > I currently use C kites and have 5th lines on all of them but not
                      > primarily as an aid to relaunch. For me the advantage of a 5th
                      line is
                      > Tea Bag Protection. If I kited where that was not an issue I would
                      fly my
                      > Cs on 4 lines cuz I can get them relaunched.
                      >
                      > BTW lower aspect kites relaunch real easy - hard to keep them on
                      the
                      > water. so if you want C kites and relaunch is the issue just get
                      low
                      > aspect ratio kites.
                      >
                      > But if I was learning today and know what I know I'd buy one of the
                      flat
                      > inflatables for sure. Not sure which one though.
                      >
                      >
                      > --
                      > Steve
                      > Carson City, Nevada, USA
                      >
                      > On Tue, 11 Jul 2006 15:08:04 -0700, Dean Crowell <dean@...>
                      > wrote:
                      >
                      > > As a new-comer to power kiting, do you suggest mastering a 4-line
                      bar
                      > > and not relying on the 5th line for relaunching? As a windsurfer
                      of
                      > > 23 years, I see many new products designed to make sailboarding
                      > > easier, while fully learning some basics (water-starting, short-
                      board
                      > > balance, for example) is really the way to go in my opinion. Some
                      of
                      > > the guys I see shredding are on basic 4-line LEI's w/ no frills.
                      > >
                      > > Thanks, Dean
                      > >
                      > > On Jul 11, 2006, at 4:15 PM, hungvu2000@... wrote:
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > If you are new to kitesurfing, please visit
                      > > http://www.KitesurfingSchool.org/faqs.htm for the answers
                      > > to the most frequently asked questions.
                      > >
                      > > === to unsubscribe, please send an email to
                      > > kitesurf-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com ===
                      > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      >
                    • Dean Crowell
                      Thanks Steve - Very helpful! Dean ... Dean Crowell Asset Manager Artspace Projects, Inc. 250 3rd Avenue North Suite 500 Minneapolis, Minnesota 55401
                      Message 10 of 12 , Jul 12, 2006
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                        Thanks Steve - Very helpful! Dean
                        On Jul 12, 2006, at 2:04 AM, CCKiteboarder@... wrote:

                        > If I was learning today I would buy a bow kite and avoid a 5th line.
                        >
                        > I currently use C kites and have 5th lines on all of them but not
                        > primarily as an aid to relaunch. For me the advantage of a 5th
                        > line is
                        > Tea Bag Protection. If I kited where that was not an issue I would
                        > fly my
                        > Cs on 4 lines cuz I can get them relaunched.
                        >
                        > BTW lower aspect kites relaunch real easy - hard to keep them on the
                        > water. so if you want C kites and relaunch is the issue just get low
                        > aspect ratio kites.
                        >
                        > But if I was learning today and know what I know I'd buy one of the
                        > flat
                        > inflatables for sure. Not sure which one though.
                        >
                        >
                        > --
                        > Steve
                        > Carson City, Nevada, USA
                        >
                        > On Tue, 11 Jul 2006 15:08:04 -0700, Dean Crowell
                        > <dean@...>
                        > wrote:
                        >
                        >> As a new-comer to power kiting, do you suggest mastering a 4-line bar
                        >> and not relying on the 5th line for relaunching? As a windsurfer of
                        >> 23 years, I see many new products designed to make sailboarding
                        >> easier, while fully learning some basics (water-starting, short-board
                        >> balance, for example) is really the way to go in my opinion. Some of
                        >> the guys I see shredding are on basic 4-line LEI's w/ no frills.
                        >>
                        >> Thanks, Dean
                        >>
                        >> On Jul 11, 2006, at 4:15 PM, hungvu2000@... wrote:
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>
                        >> If you are new to kitesurfing, please visit
                        >> http://www.KitesurfingSchool.org/faqs.htm for the answers
                        >> to the most frequently asked questions.
                        >>
                        >> === to unsubscribe, please send an email to
                        >> kitesurf-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com ===
                        >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > If you are new to kitesurfing, please visit
                        > http://www.KitesurfingSchool.org/faqs.htm for the answers
                        > to the most frequently asked questions.
                        >
                        > === to unsubscribe, please send an email to kitesurf-
                        > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com ===
                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >

                        Dean Crowell
                        Asset Manager
                        Artspace Projects, Inc.
                        250 3rd Avenue North
                        Suite 500
                        Minneapolis, Minnesota 55401
                        dean@...
                        Direct Dial (612) 465-0232



                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • CCKiteboarder@hotpop.com
                        Tea Bagging is what happens when the wind gets too high for the kite you are using after you go out. It is like lofting but out on the water. Your body is the
                        Message 11 of 12 , Jul 12, 2006
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                          Tea Bagging is what happens when the wind gets too high for the kite you
                          are using after you go out.

                          It is like lofting but out on the water. Your body is the tea bag and the
                          wind gods are holding the little paper tab at the other end of the string
                          dunking you as they please : )

                          If the wind comes up a lot after you go out you may have little or no
                          control for a while. With a regular C Kite you can only depower so much
                          and still have the ability to relaunch later. A 5th line allows more
                          depower - close to full. With my set up I can throw the bar, let the kite
                          sit downwind for awhile and then when/if the wind drops off enough,
                          relaunch and continue.

                          This scenario happens enough here that I lke the option.


                          --
                          Steve
                          Carson City, Nevada, USA



                          On Wed, 12 Jul 2006 04:59:30 -0700, Yuri <drive@...> wrote:

                          >
                          > What do you mean speaking - the advantage of a 5th line is
                          > Tea Bag Protection?
                          >
                          >
                          > --- In kitesurf@yahoogroups.com, CCKiteboarder@... wrote:
                          >>
                          >> If I was learning today I would buy a bow kite and avoid a 5th line.
                          >>
                          >> I currently use C kites and have 5th lines on all of them but not
                          >> primarily as an aid to relaunch. For me the advantage of a 5th
                          > line is
                          >> Tea Bag Protection. If I kited where that was not an issue I would
                          > fly my
                          >> Cs on 4 lines cuz I can get them relaunched.
                          >>
                          >> BTW lower aspect kites relaunch real easy - hard to keep them on
                          > the
                          >> water. so if you want C kites and relaunch is the issue just get
                          > low
                          >> aspect ratio kites.
                          >>
                          >> But if I was learning today and know what I know I'd buy one of the
                          > flat
                          >> inflatables for sure. Not sure which one though.
                          >>
                          >>
                          >> --
                          >> Steve
                          >> Carson City, Nevada, USA
                          >>
                          >> On Tue, 11 Jul 2006 15:08:04 -0700, Dean Crowell <dean@...>
                          >> wrote:
                          >>
                          >> > As a new-comer to power kiting, do you suggest mastering a 4-line
                          > bar
                          >> > and not relying on the 5th line for relaunching? As a windsurfer
                          > of
                          >> > 23 years, I see many new products designed to make sailboarding
                          >> > easier, while fully learning some basics (water-starting, short-
                          > board
                          >> > balance, for example) is really the way to go in my opinion. Some
                          > of
                          >> > the guys I see shredding are on basic 4-line LEI's w/ no frills.
                          >> >
                          >> > Thanks, Dean
                          >> >
                          >> > On Jul 11, 2006, at 4:15 PM, hungvu2000@... wrote:
                          >> >
                          >> >
                          >> >
                        • Yuri
                          ... Thanks Steve. Good explanation. I apply the 5th line in the same way when the wind is too strong and gusty. But still i use the line for relaunching.
                          Message 12 of 12 , Jul 13, 2006
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                            --- In kitesurf@yahoogroups.com, CCKiteboarder@... wrote:

                            Thanks Steve. Good explanation. I apply the 5th line in the same way
                            when the wind is too strong and gusty. But still i use the line for
                            relaunching. Mostly when I do snowkiting.

                            Yuri.






                            >
                            > Tea Bagging is what happens when the wind gets too high for the
                            kite you
                            > are using after you go out.
                            >
                            > It is like lofting but out on the water. Your body is the tea bag
                            and the
                            > wind gods are holding the little paper tab at the other end of the
                            string
                            > dunking you as they please : )
                            >
                            > If the wind comes up a lot after you go out you may have little or
                            no
                            > control for a while. With a regular C Kite you can only depower so
                            much
                            > and still have the ability to relaunch later. A 5th line allows
                            more
                            > depower - close to full. With my set up I can throw the bar, let
                            the kite
                            > sit downwind for awhile and then when/if the wind drops off
                            enough,
                            > relaunch and continue.
                            >
                            > This scenario happens enough here that I lke the option.
                            >
                            >
                            > --
                            > Steve
                            > Carson City, Nevada, USA
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