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Re: Where are we heading?

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  • woodman_k
    yes the gear in the last 3 years or so is pretty easy for people to learn on. The lower cost of the closeout kites is bringing kites down to a point where some
    Message 1 of 11 , Oct 10, 2005
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      yes the gear in the last 3 years or so is pretty easy for people to
      learn on. The lower cost of the closeout kites is bringing kites down
      to a point where some fence sitters are getting in. This year where I
      live the winter will have a lot of newbies in what I see as a 3rd
      wave. The previuos 2 years was a 2nd wave but this 3rd wave looks like
      it includes people other than ex windsurfers and therefore mch more
      potential growht.

      Cheers
      Stan
      --- In kitesurf@yahoogroups.com, Hung Vu <hungvu2000@r...> wrote:
      >
      > It seems like we are heading the right directions with many
      improvements
      > in the sport in the couple years (near 100% depowerable kite, larger
      > wind range, more kites selections, better board designs, better
      board
      > constructions, lower equipment cost, better technique and
      instruction
      > availability online and otherwise, etc).
      >
      > Am I correct seeing it that way or just too optimistic?
      >
      > Hung.
      >
    • amorw2002
      I live in Belgium but am kiting mostly in Holland. It is true about the safety standards improving, as wel as the third wave you write about, Stan. However,
      Message 2 of 11 , Oct 10, 2005
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        I live in Belgium but am kiting mostly in Holland.
        It is true about the safety standards improving, as wel as the third
        wave you write about, Stan.
        However, there is a downside. Over here we have seen this third wave
        already. People with no windsurf, sailing nor wave experience
        entering the sport. People who used to come out only when the weather
        was warm and calm. We can have tricky situations with fast changing
        conditions due to clouds, windshifting and even thunderstorms.
        It is pretty much impossible to explian to these people where the
        danger lies when under a clear sky with a fine wind, even when you
        point out a situation with high clouds in the neighbourhood.
        Some of them will be fanatic, most of them only the first month or so.
        resulting in people who start of with one kite, being on the water
        almost every day or week for the first month or so. Later on this
        will get to maybe 2 or 5 times a year,due to other occupations,whife,
        sports,house renevation etc.. . When they are able too go out they
        will go, even in infavourable, instable conditions. Now there finaly
        back on the beach they have to make the most of this day, so they
        will launch ther 16 or 14 m2, even when experienced riders fly half
        of that and are having a though job.
        Whe have seen some near- and real accidents over here, the last
        couple of months, almost always with this third wave.
        I like newbees entering the sport, but we all have a responsability
        to them, others and to ourselves. Whe all need to keep them informed
        about conditions, even when it appears that whe are menacing.

        Cheers,

        Stefan.



        --- In kitesurf@yahoogroups.com, "woodman_k" <woodman_k@y...> wrote:
        >
        > yes the gear in the last 3 years or so is pretty easy for people to
        > learn on. The lower cost of the closeout kites is bringing kites
        down
        > to a point where some fence sitters are getting in. This year where
        I
        > live the winter will have a lot of newbies in what I see as a 3rd
        > wave. The previuos 2 years was a 2nd wave but this 3rd wave looks
        like
        > it includes people other than ex windsurfers and therefore mch more
        > potential growht.
        >
        > Cheers
        > Stan
        > --- In kitesurf@yahoogroups.com, Hung Vu <hungvu2000@r...> wrote:
        > >
        > > It seems like we are heading the right directions with many
        > improvements
        > > in the sport in the couple years (near 100% depowerable kite,
        larger
        > > wind range, more kites selections, better board designs, better
        > board
        > > constructions, lower equipment cost, better technique and
        > instruction
        > > availability online and otherwise, etc).
        > >
        > > Am I correct seeing it that way or just too optimistic?
        > >
        > > Hung.
        > >
        >
      • hungvu2000@rogers.com
        I have seen the SAME with the 1st and 2nd waves (which include many of us on this list, ex-windsurfers, ex-sailors, ex-surfers or otherwise). You are doing the
        Message 3 of 11 , Oct 11, 2005
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          I have seen the SAME with the 1st and 2nd waves (which include many of
          us on this list, ex-windsurfers, ex-sailors, ex-surfers or otherwise).

          You are doing the right things spreading the knowledge about the safety
          of the sport and there are more info, more instruction online and
          otherwise. So far I beleive we have done not bad. Ofcourse we still
          have to improve and continue doing this to the 3rd, 4th, 5th and etc. waves.

          Hung.

          amorw2002 wrote:

          >I live in Belgium but am kiting mostly in Holland.
          >It is true about the safety standards improving, as wel as the third
          >wave you write about, Stan.
          >However, there is a downside. Over here we have seen this third wave
          >already. People with no windsurf, sailing nor wave experience
          >entering the sport. People who used to come out only when the weather
          >was warm and calm. We can have tricky situations with fast changing
          >conditions due to clouds, windshifting and even thunderstorms.
          >It is pretty much impossible to explian to these people where the
          >danger lies when under a clear sky with a fine wind, even when you
          >point out a situation with high clouds in the neighbourhood.
          >Some of them will be fanatic, most of them only the first month or so.
          >resulting in people who start of with one kite, being on the water
          >almost every day or week for the first month or so. Later on this
          >will get to maybe 2 or 5 times a year,due to other occupations,whife,
          >sports,house renevation etc.. . When they are able too go out they
          >will go, even in infavourable, instable conditions. Now there finaly
          >back on the beach they have to make the most of this day, so they
          >will launch ther 16 or 14 m2, even when experienced riders fly half
          >of that and are having a though job.
          >Whe have seen some near- and real accidents over here, the last
          >couple of months, almost always with this third wave.
          >I like newbees entering the sport, but we all have a responsability
          >to them, others and to ourselves. Whe all need to keep them informed
          >about conditions, even when it appears that whe are menacing.
          >
          >Cheers,
          >
          >Stefan.
          >
          >
          >
          >--- In kitesurf@yahoogroups.com, "woodman_k" <woodman_k@y...> wrote:
          >
          >
          >>yes the gear in the last 3 years or so is pretty easy for people to
          >>learn on. The lower cost of the closeout kites is bringing kites
          >>
          >>
          >down
          >
          >
          >>to a point where some fence sitters are getting in. This year where
          >>
          >>
          >I
          >
          >
          >>live the winter will have a lot of newbies in what I see as a 3rd
          >>wave. The previuos 2 years was a 2nd wave but this 3rd wave looks
          >>
          >>
          >like
          >
          >
          >>it includes people other than ex windsurfers and therefore mch more
          >>potential growht.
          >>
          >>Cheers
          >>Stan
          >>--- In kitesurf@yahoogroups.com, Hung Vu <hungvu2000@r...> wrote:
          >>
          >>
          >>>It seems like we are heading the right directions with many
          >>>
          >>>
          >>improvements
          >>
          >>
          >>>in the sport in the couple years (near 100% depowerable kite,
          >>>
          >>>
          >larger
          >
          >
          >>>wind range, more kites selections, better board designs, better
          >>>
          >>>
          >>board
          >>
          >>
          >>>constructions, lower equipment cost, better technique and
          >>>
          >>>
          >>instruction
          >>
          >>
          >>>availability online and otherwise, etc).
          >>>
          >>>Am I correct seeing it that way or just too optimistic?
          >>>
          >>>Hung.
          >>>
          >>>
          >>>
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >If you are new to kitesurfing, please visit
          >http://www.KitesurfingSchool.org/faqs.htm for the answers
          >to the most frequently asked questions.
          >
          >=== to unsubscribe, please send an email to kitesurf-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com ===
          >Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • hungvu2000@rogers.com
          Some place may see growth, some place may not but that is not the subject of this thread. The fact that we have improved the sport (know how, safety,
          Message 4 of 11 , Oct 11, 2005
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            Some place may see growth, some place may not but that is not the
            subject of this thread.

            The fact that we have improved the sport (know how, safety, production,
            etc.) is probably more important.

            I have seen rapid growth in 2002-2003 that may endanger the sport back
            then but now the growth is more moderate however the improvements really
            impressed me in the last year. It may be better that way ... for a
            while...

            Hung.

            ex_cpe wrote:

            >--- In kitesurf@yahoogroups.com, Hung Vu <hungvu2000@r...> wrote:
            >
            >
            >>It seems like we are heading the right directions with many improvements
            >>in the sport in the couple years (near 100% depowerable kite, larger
            >>wind range, more kites selections, better board designs, better board
            >>constructions, lower equipment cost, better technique and instruction
            >>availability online and otherwise, etc).
            >>
            >>Am I correct seeing it that way or just too optimistic?
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >
            >Hung: .....I'd say you pretty well cap'd the upside. But, I'd answer a question with a
            >question: As an instructor, how many students did you have in 2003 vs. 2005? You'll
            >have to factor out your input (reputaion, promotion, time available variance) to calculate
            >simple business growth coming in over the transom.
            >
            >I've been speculating for a couple of years that something like a Crossbow, in the short
            >term, mostly takes from Naish, Slingy, etc. sales rather than adds to the market. Best may
            >have provided a bump with Wamart kites...but I see almost zero evidence of the entry of
            >new people. ...not that any of my local crew is complaining mind you!
            >
            >And if you look at iktesurf.com classifieds; they have gone from 500's kites for sale to
            >600's...which could show growth...but, perhaps more indicative: the price of used gear has
            >headed to windsurfer territory.
            >
            >I've listed a 2005 Rapture with a lot of the features in your list. It listed new for $850+ (a
            >bargain compared to the CB)....it got zero attention at $500...little (other WWinger's
            >nervous) attention at $400....and little at $375. I've sold perfectly good kites for what we
            >paid for a B3 trainer a few years ago....but, aside from some whiny Arab who squealed like
            >a paid mourner at Arafat's funeral, only to people who had that kind of kite already in his
            >quiver.
            >
            >How's the traffic at kitesurf school? That was the number one online resource for me as a
            >newbie. I wonder how many school bookings there are in Cabarete vs a couple of years
            >ago? How many instructors can stay and make a modest 'kite' living? Kite destinations
            >seem to have come off the radar.
            >
            >I don't frankly care - I can do it - and I love it. Some people who come up to me ask how
            >much it costs, but most first say: "That looks hard!" Maybe I make it look hard...and
            >maybe American are lazy sods (we sure can be fat!)...so maybe as a sport it is growing like
            >weeds in Camaroon or Cambodia - I just don't see it looking out my cave.
            >
            >Contiuned good kiting my brothers - we share what seems like an open secret.
            >
            >jim
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >If you are new to kitesurfing, please visit
            >http://www.KitesurfingSchool.org/faqs.htm for the answers
            >to the most frequently asked questions.
            >
            >=== to unsubscribe, please send an email to kitesurf-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com ===
            >Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • woodman_k
            Stefan I think that is a good point too that the non-windsurfer types are really at risk in bad weather. Just no feeling as to how BAD it really is sometimes.
            Message 5 of 11 , Oct 11, 2005
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              Stefan
              I think that is a good point too that the non-windsurfer types are
              really at risk in bad weather. Just no feeling as to how BAD it
              really is sometimes. I have been pushing the helmet a lot lately.
              Even though a lot think it's too kooky.
              Stan

              --- In kitesurf@yahoogroups.com, "amorw2002"
              <stefan.bleyenbergh@a...> wrote:
              >
              > I live in Belgium but am kiting mostly in Holland.
              > It is true about the safety standards improving, as wel as the
              third
              > wave you write about, Stan.
              > However, there is a downside. Over here we have seen this third
              wave
              > already. People with no windsurf, sailing nor wave experience
              > entering the sport. People who used to come out only when the
              weather
              > was warm and calm. We can have tricky situations with fast changing
              > conditions due to clouds, windshifting and even thunderstorms.
              > It is pretty much impossible to explian to these people where the
              > danger lies when under a clear sky with a fine wind, even when you
              > point out a situation with high clouds in the neighbourhood.
              > Some of them will be fanatic, most of them only the first month or
              so.
              > resulting in people who start of with one kite, being on the water
              > almost every day or week for the first month or so. Later on this
              > will get to maybe 2 or 5 times a year,due to other
              occupations,whife,
              > sports,house renevation etc.. . When they are able too go out they
              > will go, even in infavourable, instable conditions. Now there
              finaly
              > back on the beach they have to make the most of this day, so they
              > will launch ther 16 or 14 m2, even when experienced riders fly half
              > of that and are having a though job.
              > Whe have seen some near- and real accidents over here, the last
              > couple of months, almost always with this third wave.
              > I like newbees entering the sport, but we all have a responsability
              > to them, others and to ourselves. Whe all need to keep them
              informed
              > about conditions, even when it appears that whe are menacing.
              >
              > Cheers,
              >
              > Stefan.
              >
              >
              >
              > --- In kitesurf@yahoogroups.com, "woodman_k" <woodman_k@y...> wrote:
              > >
              > > yes the gear in the last 3 years or so is pretty easy for people
              to
              > > learn on. The lower cost of the closeout kites is bringing kites
              > down
              > > to a point where some fence sitters are getting in. This year
              where
              > I
              > > live the winter will have a lot of newbies in what I see as a 3rd
              > > wave. The previuos 2 years was a 2nd wave but this 3rd wave looks
              > like
              > > it includes people other than ex windsurfers and therefore mch
              more
              > > potential growht.
              > >
              > > Cheers
              > > Stan
              > > --- In kitesurf@yahoogroups.com, Hung Vu <hungvu2000@r...> wrote:
              > > >
              > > > It seems like we are heading the right directions with many
              > > improvements
              > > > in the sport in the couple years (near 100% depowerable kite,
              > larger
              > > > wind range, more kites selections, better board designs, better
              > > board
              > > > constructions, lower equipment cost, better technique and
              > > instruction
              > > > availability online and otherwise, etc).
              > > >
              > > > Am I correct seeing it that way or just too optimistic?
              > > >
              > > > Hung.
              > > >
              > >
              >
            • dave@kiteship.com
              A couple of comments on newbies and safety. Statistically, newbies aren t the ones most often killed--experienced kite surfers are. Safety is an ever-vigilance
              Message 6 of 11 , Oct 11, 2005
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                A couple of comments on newbies and safety. Statistically, newbies
                aren't the ones most often killed--experienced kite surfers are.
                Safety is an ever-vigilance thing, not simply a skill to be learned
                then ignored.

                Kite buggiers have a concept which might be worth sharing: Safety
                is EVERYONE'S concern. If you see another kiter behaving in an unsafe
                manner, it is YOUR beach and YOUR sport which will suffer in the end.
                With this attitude, one feels much better about walking over and
                saying, "I used to do it that way. It is dangerous. Let me show you a
                safer way." Buggiers have been known to go to extreme lengths in this
                pursuit--even "ganging up" to physically restrain extremely unsafe
                kiters from doing harm.

                Just a thought...

                Dave Culp
              • georgeiw@aol.com
                Good thought Dave, It does seem to be newbies and experts that get hurt. Goal 1- get out of the newbie category, Goal 2- keep your head out of the expert
                Message 7 of 11 , Oct 11, 2005
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                  Good thought Dave,
                  It does seem to be newbies and experts that get hurt. Goal 1- get out of the
                  newbie category, Goal 2- keep your head out of the expert category.

                  This weekend was our first blast of fall wind. Winds above 25 and everything
                  working.... but suddenly dangerous. After months of kiting in 8 to 12 it was
                  hard to remember the slams that you get at 25 gusting to sustained 35.

                  A simple reminder of the most dangerous situations.

                  1. kiting with hard objects down wind of you.
                  2. kiting with the kite in the zenith position waiting to get lofted.
                  3. kiting with a messed up launch. If the kite drifts backwards, with lots
                  of wind around, watch out for the explosion though the power zone when it
                  gets there. The lines will be slack, you will have no steering ability and you
                  will get taken for a dangerous ride.
                  If it starts to happen to you ... unhook and pull all the releases, you only
                  have about 1.5 seconds. Think about launching unhooked with the chicken
                  loop fully depowered. The worst thing that happens is that the kite gets ripped
                  out of your hands and straight to the leash.

                  I remember it well, all 3 times.
                  George


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Neil Harper
                  Dave I think Gang stuff might be a bit extreme but I totally agree with the sentiment. We in the UK live in an evermore litigious society and the fear of
                  Message 8 of 11 , Oct 12, 2005
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                    Dave I think Gang stuff might be a bit extreme but I totally agree with the
                    sentiment. We in the UK live in an evermore litigious society and the fear
                    of negligence and compensation claims is a huge factor in local government
                    decisions, so much so that you can get bans imposed just in case something
                    happens. We all know the beauty of kitesurfing is the sense of freedom it
                    gives. We all have to be sensible so that ignorance and or stupidity will
                    not reduce our freedoms. So if you have the attitude that someone behaving
                    dangerously is not your problem, it soon will be! :-)

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: kitesurf@yahoogroups.com [mailto:kitesurf@yahoogroups.com]On
                    Behalf Of dave@...
                    Sent: 11 October 2005 22:19
                    To: kitesurf@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: [ksurf] Re: Where are we heading?


                    A couple of comments on newbies and safety. Statistically, newbies
                    aren't the ones most often killed--experienced kite surfers are.
                    Safety is an ever-vigilance thing, not simply a skill to be learned
                    then ignored.

                    Kite buggiers have a concept which might be worth sharing: Safety
                    is EVERYONE'S concern. If you see another kiter behaving in an unsafe
                    manner, it is YOUR beach and YOUR sport which will suffer in the end.
                    With this attitude, one feels much better about walking over and
                    saying, "I used to do it that way. It is dangerous. Let me show you a
                    safer way." Buggiers have been known to go to extreme lengths in this
                    pursuit--even "ganging up" to physically restrain extremely unsafe
                    kiters from doing harm.

                    Just a thought...

                    Dave Culp


                    If you are new to kitesurfing, please visit
                    http://www.KitesurfingSchool.org/faqs.htm for the answers
                    to the most frequently asked questions.

                    === to unsubscribe, please send an email to
                    kitesurf-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com ===
                    Yahoo! Groups Links
                  • ex_cpe
                    ... ...............in that context: We have improved the sport ...because we - being the sport - have improved. If the bulk of the people participating may
                    Message 9 of 11 , Oct 12, 2005
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                      --- In kitesurf@yahoogroups.com, hungvu2000@r... wrote:
                      >
                      > Some place may see growth, some place may not but that is not the
                      > subject of this thread.
                      >
                      > The fact that we have improved the sport (know how, safety, production,
                      > etc.) is probably more important.
                      >


                      ...............in that context: "We have improved the sport"...because we - being the sport -
                      have improved.

                      If the bulk of the people participating may now have two years+ expirence. The 'know
                      how, safety, etc.' automatically improve, likely at a faster rate, than any material
                      improvements like 5th lines, Bow shapes, etc. (hense the complaints of limitations of 5th's,
                      Bow's, etc) My local crew could pass IKO tests with 2002 kites and 185cm boards.

                      Jim
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