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Re: Where are we heading?

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  • ex_cpe
    ... Hung: .....I d say you pretty well cap d the upside. But, I d answer a question with a question: As an instructor, how many students did you have in 2003
    Message 1 of 11 , Oct 9, 2005
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      --- In kitesurf@yahoogroups.com, Hung Vu <hungvu2000@r...> wrote:
      >
      > It seems like we are heading the right directions with many improvements
      > in the sport in the couple years (near 100% depowerable kite, larger
      > wind range, more kites selections, better board designs, better board
      > constructions, lower equipment cost, better technique and instruction
      > availability online and otherwise, etc).
      >
      > Am I correct seeing it that way or just too optimistic?
      >

      Hung: .....I'd say you pretty well cap'd the upside. But, I'd answer a question with a
      question: As an instructor, how many students did you have in 2003 vs. 2005? You'll
      have to factor out your input (reputaion, promotion, time available variance) to calculate
      simple business growth coming in over the transom.

      I've been speculating for a couple of years that something like a Crossbow, in the short
      term, mostly takes from Naish, Slingy, etc. sales rather than adds to the market. Best may
      have provided a bump with Wamart kites...but I see almost zero evidence of the entry of
      new people. ...not that any of my local crew is complaining mind you!

      And if you look at iktesurf.com classifieds; they have gone from 500's kites for sale to
      600's...which could show growth...but, perhaps more indicative: the price of used gear has
      headed to windsurfer territory.

      I've listed a 2005 Rapture with a lot of the features in your list. It listed new for $850+ (a
      bargain compared to the CB)....it got zero attention at $500...little (other WWinger's
      nervous) attention at $400....and little at $375. I've sold perfectly good kites for what we
      paid for a B3 trainer a few years ago....but, aside from some whiny Arab who squealed like
      a paid mourner at Arafat's funeral, only to people who had that kind of kite already in his
      quiver.

      How's the traffic at kitesurf school? That was the number one online resource for me as a
      newbie. I wonder how many school bookings there are in Cabarete vs a couple of years
      ago? How many instructors can stay and make a modest 'kite' living? Kite destinations
      seem to have come off the radar.

      I don't frankly care - I can do it - and I love it. Some people who come up to me ask how
      much it costs, but most first say: "That looks hard!" Maybe I make it look hard...and
      maybe American are lazy sods (we sure can be fat!)...so maybe as a sport it is growing like
      weeds in Camaroon or Cambodia - I just don't see it looking out my cave.

      Contiuned good kiting my brothers - we share what seems like an open secret.

      jim
    • woodman_k
      yes the gear in the last 3 years or so is pretty easy for people to learn on. The lower cost of the closeout kites is bringing kites down to a point where some
      Message 2 of 11 , Oct 10, 2005
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        yes the gear in the last 3 years or so is pretty easy for people to
        learn on. The lower cost of the closeout kites is bringing kites down
        to a point where some fence sitters are getting in. This year where I
        live the winter will have a lot of newbies in what I see as a 3rd
        wave. The previuos 2 years was a 2nd wave but this 3rd wave looks like
        it includes people other than ex windsurfers and therefore mch more
        potential growht.

        Cheers
        Stan
        --- In kitesurf@yahoogroups.com, Hung Vu <hungvu2000@r...> wrote:
        >
        > It seems like we are heading the right directions with many
        improvements
        > in the sport in the couple years (near 100% depowerable kite, larger
        > wind range, more kites selections, better board designs, better
        board
        > constructions, lower equipment cost, better technique and
        instruction
        > availability online and otherwise, etc).
        >
        > Am I correct seeing it that way or just too optimistic?
        >
        > Hung.
        >
      • amorw2002
        I live in Belgium but am kiting mostly in Holland. It is true about the safety standards improving, as wel as the third wave you write about, Stan. However,
        Message 3 of 11 , Oct 10, 2005
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          I live in Belgium but am kiting mostly in Holland.
          It is true about the safety standards improving, as wel as the third
          wave you write about, Stan.
          However, there is a downside. Over here we have seen this third wave
          already. People with no windsurf, sailing nor wave experience
          entering the sport. People who used to come out only when the weather
          was warm and calm. We can have tricky situations with fast changing
          conditions due to clouds, windshifting and even thunderstorms.
          It is pretty much impossible to explian to these people where the
          danger lies when under a clear sky with a fine wind, even when you
          point out a situation with high clouds in the neighbourhood.
          Some of them will be fanatic, most of them only the first month or so.
          resulting in people who start of with one kite, being on the water
          almost every day or week for the first month or so. Later on this
          will get to maybe 2 or 5 times a year,due to other occupations,whife,
          sports,house renevation etc.. . When they are able too go out they
          will go, even in infavourable, instable conditions. Now there finaly
          back on the beach they have to make the most of this day, so they
          will launch ther 16 or 14 m2, even when experienced riders fly half
          of that and are having a though job.
          Whe have seen some near- and real accidents over here, the last
          couple of months, almost always with this third wave.
          I like newbees entering the sport, but we all have a responsability
          to them, others and to ourselves. Whe all need to keep them informed
          about conditions, even when it appears that whe are menacing.

          Cheers,

          Stefan.



          --- In kitesurf@yahoogroups.com, "woodman_k" <woodman_k@y...> wrote:
          >
          > yes the gear in the last 3 years or so is pretty easy for people to
          > learn on. The lower cost of the closeout kites is bringing kites
          down
          > to a point where some fence sitters are getting in. This year where
          I
          > live the winter will have a lot of newbies in what I see as a 3rd
          > wave. The previuos 2 years was a 2nd wave but this 3rd wave looks
          like
          > it includes people other than ex windsurfers and therefore mch more
          > potential growht.
          >
          > Cheers
          > Stan
          > --- In kitesurf@yahoogroups.com, Hung Vu <hungvu2000@r...> wrote:
          > >
          > > It seems like we are heading the right directions with many
          > improvements
          > > in the sport in the couple years (near 100% depowerable kite,
          larger
          > > wind range, more kites selections, better board designs, better
          > board
          > > constructions, lower equipment cost, better technique and
          > instruction
          > > availability online and otherwise, etc).
          > >
          > > Am I correct seeing it that way or just too optimistic?
          > >
          > > Hung.
          > >
          >
        • hungvu2000@rogers.com
          I have seen the SAME with the 1st and 2nd waves (which include many of us on this list, ex-windsurfers, ex-sailors, ex-surfers or otherwise). You are doing the
          Message 4 of 11 , Oct 11, 2005
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            I have seen the SAME with the 1st and 2nd waves (which include many of
            us on this list, ex-windsurfers, ex-sailors, ex-surfers or otherwise).

            You are doing the right things spreading the knowledge about the safety
            of the sport and there are more info, more instruction online and
            otherwise. So far I beleive we have done not bad. Ofcourse we still
            have to improve and continue doing this to the 3rd, 4th, 5th and etc. waves.

            Hung.

            amorw2002 wrote:

            >I live in Belgium but am kiting mostly in Holland.
            >It is true about the safety standards improving, as wel as the third
            >wave you write about, Stan.
            >However, there is a downside. Over here we have seen this third wave
            >already. People with no windsurf, sailing nor wave experience
            >entering the sport. People who used to come out only when the weather
            >was warm and calm. We can have tricky situations with fast changing
            >conditions due to clouds, windshifting and even thunderstorms.
            >It is pretty much impossible to explian to these people where the
            >danger lies when under a clear sky with a fine wind, even when you
            >point out a situation with high clouds in the neighbourhood.
            >Some of them will be fanatic, most of them only the first month or so.
            >resulting in people who start of with one kite, being on the water
            >almost every day or week for the first month or so. Later on this
            >will get to maybe 2 or 5 times a year,due to other occupations,whife,
            >sports,house renevation etc.. . When they are able too go out they
            >will go, even in infavourable, instable conditions. Now there finaly
            >back on the beach they have to make the most of this day, so they
            >will launch ther 16 or 14 m2, even when experienced riders fly half
            >of that and are having a though job.
            >Whe have seen some near- and real accidents over here, the last
            >couple of months, almost always with this third wave.
            >I like newbees entering the sport, but we all have a responsability
            >to them, others and to ourselves. Whe all need to keep them informed
            >about conditions, even when it appears that whe are menacing.
            >
            >Cheers,
            >
            >Stefan.
            >
            >
            >
            >--- In kitesurf@yahoogroups.com, "woodman_k" <woodman_k@y...> wrote:
            >
            >
            >>yes the gear in the last 3 years or so is pretty easy for people to
            >>learn on. The lower cost of the closeout kites is bringing kites
            >>
            >>
            >down
            >
            >
            >>to a point where some fence sitters are getting in. This year where
            >>
            >>
            >I
            >
            >
            >>live the winter will have a lot of newbies in what I see as a 3rd
            >>wave. The previuos 2 years was a 2nd wave but this 3rd wave looks
            >>
            >>
            >like
            >
            >
            >>it includes people other than ex windsurfers and therefore mch more
            >>potential growht.
            >>
            >>Cheers
            >>Stan
            >>--- In kitesurf@yahoogroups.com, Hung Vu <hungvu2000@r...> wrote:
            >>
            >>
            >>>It seems like we are heading the right directions with many
            >>>
            >>>
            >>improvements
            >>
            >>
            >>>in the sport in the couple years (near 100% depowerable kite,
            >>>
            >>>
            >larger
            >
            >
            >>>wind range, more kites selections, better board designs, better
            >>>
            >>>
            >>board
            >>
            >>
            >>>constructions, lower equipment cost, better technique and
            >>>
            >>>
            >>instruction
            >>
            >>
            >>>availability online and otherwise, etc).
            >>>
            >>>Am I correct seeing it that way or just too optimistic?
            >>>
            >>>Hung.
            >>>
            >>>
            >>>
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >If you are new to kitesurfing, please visit
            >http://www.KitesurfingSchool.org/faqs.htm for the answers
            >to the most frequently asked questions.
            >
            >=== to unsubscribe, please send an email to kitesurf-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com ===
            >Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • hungvu2000@rogers.com
            Some place may see growth, some place may not but that is not the subject of this thread. The fact that we have improved the sport (know how, safety,
            Message 5 of 11 , Oct 11, 2005
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              Some place may see growth, some place may not but that is not the
              subject of this thread.

              The fact that we have improved the sport (know how, safety, production,
              etc.) is probably more important.

              I have seen rapid growth in 2002-2003 that may endanger the sport back
              then but now the growth is more moderate however the improvements really
              impressed me in the last year. It may be better that way ... for a
              while...

              Hung.

              ex_cpe wrote:

              >--- In kitesurf@yahoogroups.com, Hung Vu <hungvu2000@r...> wrote:
              >
              >
              >>It seems like we are heading the right directions with many improvements
              >>in the sport in the couple years (near 100% depowerable kite, larger
              >>wind range, more kites selections, better board designs, better board
              >>constructions, lower equipment cost, better technique and instruction
              >>availability online and otherwise, etc).
              >>
              >>Am I correct seeing it that way or just too optimistic?
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >
              >Hung: .....I'd say you pretty well cap'd the upside. But, I'd answer a question with a
              >question: As an instructor, how many students did you have in 2003 vs. 2005? You'll
              >have to factor out your input (reputaion, promotion, time available variance) to calculate
              >simple business growth coming in over the transom.
              >
              >I've been speculating for a couple of years that something like a Crossbow, in the short
              >term, mostly takes from Naish, Slingy, etc. sales rather than adds to the market. Best may
              >have provided a bump with Wamart kites...but I see almost zero evidence of the entry of
              >new people. ...not that any of my local crew is complaining mind you!
              >
              >And if you look at iktesurf.com classifieds; they have gone from 500's kites for sale to
              >600's...which could show growth...but, perhaps more indicative: the price of used gear has
              >headed to windsurfer territory.
              >
              >I've listed a 2005 Rapture with a lot of the features in your list. It listed new for $850+ (a
              >bargain compared to the CB)....it got zero attention at $500...little (other WWinger's
              >nervous) attention at $400....and little at $375. I've sold perfectly good kites for what we
              >paid for a B3 trainer a few years ago....but, aside from some whiny Arab who squealed like
              >a paid mourner at Arafat's funeral, only to people who had that kind of kite already in his
              >quiver.
              >
              >How's the traffic at kitesurf school? That was the number one online resource for me as a
              >newbie. I wonder how many school bookings there are in Cabarete vs a couple of years
              >ago? How many instructors can stay and make a modest 'kite' living? Kite destinations
              >seem to have come off the radar.
              >
              >I don't frankly care - I can do it - and I love it. Some people who come up to me ask how
              >much it costs, but most first say: "That looks hard!" Maybe I make it look hard...and
              >maybe American are lazy sods (we sure can be fat!)...so maybe as a sport it is growing like
              >weeds in Camaroon or Cambodia - I just don't see it looking out my cave.
              >
              >Contiuned good kiting my brothers - we share what seems like an open secret.
              >
              >jim
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >If you are new to kitesurfing, please visit
              >http://www.KitesurfingSchool.org/faqs.htm for the answers
              >to the most frequently asked questions.
              >
              >=== to unsubscribe, please send an email to kitesurf-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com ===
              >Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • woodman_k
              Stefan I think that is a good point too that the non-windsurfer types are really at risk in bad weather. Just no feeling as to how BAD it really is sometimes.
              Message 6 of 11 , Oct 11, 2005
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                Stefan
                I think that is a good point too that the non-windsurfer types are
                really at risk in bad weather. Just no feeling as to how BAD it
                really is sometimes. I have been pushing the helmet a lot lately.
                Even though a lot think it's too kooky.
                Stan

                --- In kitesurf@yahoogroups.com, "amorw2002"
                <stefan.bleyenbergh@a...> wrote:
                >
                > I live in Belgium but am kiting mostly in Holland.
                > It is true about the safety standards improving, as wel as the
                third
                > wave you write about, Stan.
                > However, there is a downside. Over here we have seen this third
                wave
                > already. People with no windsurf, sailing nor wave experience
                > entering the sport. People who used to come out only when the
                weather
                > was warm and calm. We can have tricky situations with fast changing
                > conditions due to clouds, windshifting and even thunderstorms.
                > It is pretty much impossible to explian to these people where the
                > danger lies when under a clear sky with a fine wind, even when you
                > point out a situation with high clouds in the neighbourhood.
                > Some of them will be fanatic, most of them only the first month or
                so.
                > resulting in people who start of with one kite, being on the water
                > almost every day or week for the first month or so. Later on this
                > will get to maybe 2 or 5 times a year,due to other
                occupations,whife,
                > sports,house renevation etc.. . When they are able too go out they
                > will go, even in infavourable, instable conditions. Now there
                finaly
                > back on the beach they have to make the most of this day, so they
                > will launch ther 16 or 14 m2, even when experienced riders fly half
                > of that and are having a though job.
                > Whe have seen some near- and real accidents over here, the last
                > couple of months, almost always with this third wave.
                > I like newbees entering the sport, but we all have a responsability
                > to them, others and to ourselves. Whe all need to keep them
                informed
                > about conditions, even when it appears that whe are menacing.
                >
                > Cheers,
                >
                > Stefan.
                >
                >
                >
                > --- In kitesurf@yahoogroups.com, "woodman_k" <woodman_k@y...> wrote:
                > >
                > > yes the gear in the last 3 years or so is pretty easy for people
                to
                > > learn on. The lower cost of the closeout kites is bringing kites
                > down
                > > to a point where some fence sitters are getting in. This year
                where
                > I
                > > live the winter will have a lot of newbies in what I see as a 3rd
                > > wave. The previuos 2 years was a 2nd wave but this 3rd wave looks
                > like
                > > it includes people other than ex windsurfers and therefore mch
                more
                > > potential growht.
                > >
                > > Cheers
                > > Stan
                > > --- In kitesurf@yahoogroups.com, Hung Vu <hungvu2000@r...> wrote:
                > > >
                > > > It seems like we are heading the right directions with many
                > > improvements
                > > > in the sport in the couple years (near 100% depowerable kite,
                > larger
                > > > wind range, more kites selections, better board designs, better
                > > board
                > > > constructions, lower equipment cost, better technique and
                > > instruction
                > > > availability online and otherwise, etc).
                > > >
                > > > Am I correct seeing it that way or just too optimistic?
                > > >
                > > > Hung.
                > > >
                > >
                >
              • dave@kiteship.com
                A couple of comments on newbies and safety. Statistically, newbies aren t the ones most often killed--experienced kite surfers are. Safety is an ever-vigilance
                Message 7 of 11 , Oct 11, 2005
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                  A couple of comments on newbies and safety. Statistically, newbies
                  aren't the ones most often killed--experienced kite surfers are.
                  Safety is an ever-vigilance thing, not simply a skill to be learned
                  then ignored.

                  Kite buggiers have a concept which might be worth sharing: Safety
                  is EVERYONE'S concern. If you see another kiter behaving in an unsafe
                  manner, it is YOUR beach and YOUR sport which will suffer in the end.
                  With this attitude, one feels much better about walking over and
                  saying, "I used to do it that way. It is dangerous. Let me show you a
                  safer way." Buggiers have been known to go to extreme lengths in this
                  pursuit--even "ganging up" to physically restrain extremely unsafe
                  kiters from doing harm.

                  Just a thought...

                  Dave Culp
                • georgeiw@aol.com
                  Good thought Dave, It does seem to be newbies and experts that get hurt. Goal 1- get out of the newbie category, Goal 2- keep your head out of the expert
                  Message 8 of 11 , Oct 11, 2005
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                    Good thought Dave,
                    It does seem to be newbies and experts that get hurt. Goal 1- get out of the
                    newbie category, Goal 2- keep your head out of the expert category.

                    This weekend was our first blast of fall wind. Winds above 25 and everything
                    working.... but suddenly dangerous. After months of kiting in 8 to 12 it was
                    hard to remember the slams that you get at 25 gusting to sustained 35.

                    A simple reminder of the most dangerous situations.

                    1. kiting with hard objects down wind of you.
                    2. kiting with the kite in the zenith position waiting to get lofted.
                    3. kiting with a messed up launch. If the kite drifts backwards, with lots
                    of wind around, watch out for the explosion though the power zone when it
                    gets there. The lines will be slack, you will have no steering ability and you
                    will get taken for a dangerous ride.
                    If it starts to happen to you ... unhook and pull all the releases, you only
                    have about 1.5 seconds. Think about launching unhooked with the chicken
                    loop fully depowered. The worst thing that happens is that the kite gets ripped
                    out of your hands and straight to the leash.

                    I remember it well, all 3 times.
                    George


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Neil Harper
                    Dave I think Gang stuff might be a bit extreme but I totally agree with the sentiment. We in the UK live in an evermore litigious society and the fear of
                    Message 9 of 11 , Oct 12, 2005
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                      Dave I think Gang stuff might be a bit extreme but I totally agree with the
                      sentiment. We in the UK live in an evermore litigious society and the fear
                      of negligence and compensation claims is a huge factor in local government
                      decisions, so much so that you can get bans imposed just in case something
                      happens. We all know the beauty of kitesurfing is the sense of freedom it
                      gives. We all have to be sensible so that ignorance and or stupidity will
                      not reduce our freedoms. So if you have the attitude that someone behaving
                      dangerously is not your problem, it soon will be! :-)

                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: kitesurf@yahoogroups.com [mailto:kitesurf@yahoogroups.com]On
                      Behalf Of dave@...
                      Sent: 11 October 2005 22:19
                      To: kitesurf@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: [ksurf] Re: Where are we heading?


                      A couple of comments on newbies and safety. Statistically, newbies
                      aren't the ones most often killed--experienced kite surfers are.
                      Safety is an ever-vigilance thing, not simply a skill to be learned
                      then ignored.

                      Kite buggiers have a concept which might be worth sharing: Safety
                      is EVERYONE'S concern. If you see another kiter behaving in an unsafe
                      manner, it is YOUR beach and YOUR sport which will suffer in the end.
                      With this attitude, one feels much better about walking over and
                      saying, "I used to do it that way. It is dangerous. Let me show you a
                      safer way." Buggiers have been known to go to extreme lengths in this
                      pursuit--even "ganging up" to physically restrain extremely unsafe
                      kiters from doing harm.

                      Just a thought...

                      Dave Culp


                      If you are new to kitesurfing, please visit
                      http://www.KitesurfingSchool.org/faqs.htm for the answers
                      to the most frequently asked questions.

                      === to unsubscribe, please send an email to
                      kitesurf-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com ===
                      Yahoo! Groups Links
                    • ex_cpe
                      ... ...............in that context: We have improved the sport ...because we - being the sport - have improved. If the bulk of the people participating may
                      Message 10 of 11 , Oct 12, 2005
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                        --- In kitesurf@yahoogroups.com, hungvu2000@r... wrote:
                        >
                        > Some place may see growth, some place may not but that is not the
                        > subject of this thread.
                        >
                        > The fact that we have improved the sport (know how, safety, production,
                        > etc.) is probably more important.
                        >


                        ...............in that context: "We have improved the sport"...because we - being the sport -
                        have improved.

                        If the bulk of the people participating may now have two years+ expirence. The 'know
                        how, safety, etc.' automatically improve, likely at a faster rate, than any material
                        improvements like 5th lines, Bow shapes, etc. (hense the complaints of limitations of 5th's,
                        Bow's, etc) My local crew could pass IKO tests with 2002 kites and 185cm boards.

                        Jim
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