Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Where are we heading?

Expand Messages
  • Hung Vu
    It seems like we are heading the right directions with many improvements in the sport in the couple years (near 100% depowerable kite, larger wind range, more
    Message 1 of 11 , Oct 8, 2005
    • 0 Attachment
      It seems like we are heading the right directions with many improvements
      in the sport in the couple years (near 100% depowerable kite, larger
      wind range, more kites selections, better board designs, better board
      constructions, lower equipment cost, better technique and instruction
      availability online and otherwise, etc).

      Am I correct seeing it that way or just too optimistic?

      Hung.
    • ex_cpe
      ... Hung: .....I d say you pretty well cap d the upside. But, I d answer a question with a question: As an instructor, how many students did you have in 2003
      Message 2 of 11 , Oct 9, 2005
      • 0 Attachment
        --- In kitesurf@yahoogroups.com, Hung Vu <hungvu2000@r...> wrote:
        >
        > It seems like we are heading the right directions with many improvements
        > in the sport in the couple years (near 100% depowerable kite, larger
        > wind range, more kites selections, better board designs, better board
        > constructions, lower equipment cost, better technique and instruction
        > availability online and otherwise, etc).
        >
        > Am I correct seeing it that way or just too optimistic?
        >

        Hung: .....I'd say you pretty well cap'd the upside. But, I'd answer a question with a
        question: As an instructor, how many students did you have in 2003 vs. 2005? You'll
        have to factor out your input (reputaion, promotion, time available variance) to calculate
        simple business growth coming in over the transom.

        I've been speculating for a couple of years that something like a Crossbow, in the short
        term, mostly takes from Naish, Slingy, etc. sales rather than adds to the market. Best may
        have provided a bump with Wamart kites...but I see almost zero evidence of the entry of
        new people. ...not that any of my local crew is complaining mind you!

        And if you look at iktesurf.com classifieds; they have gone from 500's kites for sale to
        600's...which could show growth...but, perhaps more indicative: the price of used gear has
        headed to windsurfer territory.

        I've listed a 2005 Rapture with a lot of the features in your list. It listed new for $850+ (a
        bargain compared to the CB)....it got zero attention at $500...little (other WWinger's
        nervous) attention at $400....and little at $375. I've sold perfectly good kites for what we
        paid for a B3 trainer a few years ago....but, aside from some whiny Arab who squealed like
        a paid mourner at Arafat's funeral, only to people who had that kind of kite already in his
        quiver.

        How's the traffic at kitesurf school? That was the number one online resource for me as a
        newbie. I wonder how many school bookings there are in Cabarete vs a couple of years
        ago? How many instructors can stay and make a modest 'kite' living? Kite destinations
        seem to have come off the radar.

        I don't frankly care - I can do it - and I love it. Some people who come up to me ask how
        much it costs, but most first say: "That looks hard!" Maybe I make it look hard...and
        maybe American are lazy sods (we sure can be fat!)...so maybe as a sport it is growing like
        weeds in Camaroon or Cambodia - I just don't see it looking out my cave.

        Contiuned good kiting my brothers - we share what seems like an open secret.

        jim
      • woodman_k
        yes the gear in the last 3 years or so is pretty easy for people to learn on. The lower cost of the closeout kites is bringing kites down to a point where some
        Message 3 of 11 , Oct 10, 2005
        • 0 Attachment
          yes the gear in the last 3 years or so is pretty easy for people to
          learn on. The lower cost of the closeout kites is bringing kites down
          to a point where some fence sitters are getting in. This year where I
          live the winter will have a lot of newbies in what I see as a 3rd
          wave. The previuos 2 years was a 2nd wave but this 3rd wave looks like
          it includes people other than ex windsurfers and therefore mch more
          potential growht.

          Cheers
          Stan
          --- In kitesurf@yahoogroups.com, Hung Vu <hungvu2000@r...> wrote:
          >
          > It seems like we are heading the right directions with many
          improvements
          > in the sport in the couple years (near 100% depowerable kite, larger
          > wind range, more kites selections, better board designs, better
          board
          > constructions, lower equipment cost, better technique and
          instruction
          > availability online and otherwise, etc).
          >
          > Am I correct seeing it that way or just too optimistic?
          >
          > Hung.
          >
        • amorw2002
          I live in Belgium but am kiting mostly in Holland. It is true about the safety standards improving, as wel as the third wave you write about, Stan. However,
          Message 4 of 11 , Oct 10, 2005
          • 0 Attachment
            I live in Belgium but am kiting mostly in Holland.
            It is true about the safety standards improving, as wel as the third
            wave you write about, Stan.
            However, there is a downside. Over here we have seen this third wave
            already. People with no windsurf, sailing nor wave experience
            entering the sport. People who used to come out only when the weather
            was warm and calm. We can have tricky situations with fast changing
            conditions due to clouds, windshifting and even thunderstorms.
            It is pretty much impossible to explian to these people where the
            danger lies when under a clear sky with a fine wind, even when you
            point out a situation with high clouds in the neighbourhood.
            Some of them will be fanatic, most of them only the first month or so.
            resulting in people who start of with one kite, being on the water
            almost every day or week for the first month or so. Later on this
            will get to maybe 2 or 5 times a year,due to other occupations,whife,
            sports,house renevation etc.. . When they are able too go out they
            will go, even in infavourable, instable conditions. Now there finaly
            back on the beach they have to make the most of this day, so they
            will launch ther 16 or 14 m2, even when experienced riders fly half
            of that and are having a though job.
            Whe have seen some near- and real accidents over here, the last
            couple of months, almost always with this third wave.
            I like newbees entering the sport, but we all have a responsability
            to them, others and to ourselves. Whe all need to keep them informed
            about conditions, even when it appears that whe are menacing.

            Cheers,

            Stefan.



            --- In kitesurf@yahoogroups.com, "woodman_k" <woodman_k@y...> wrote:
            >
            > yes the gear in the last 3 years or so is pretty easy for people to
            > learn on. The lower cost of the closeout kites is bringing kites
            down
            > to a point where some fence sitters are getting in. This year where
            I
            > live the winter will have a lot of newbies in what I see as a 3rd
            > wave. The previuos 2 years was a 2nd wave but this 3rd wave looks
            like
            > it includes people other than ex windsurfers and therefore mch more
            > potential growht.
            >
            > Cheers
            > Stan
            > --- In kitesurf@yahoogroups.com, Hung Vu <hungvu2000@r...> wrote:
            > >
            > > It seems like we are heading the right directions with many
            > improvements
            > > in the sport in the couple years (near 100% depowerable kite,
            larger
            > > wind range, more kites selections, better board designs, better
            > board
            > > constructions, lower equipment cost, better technique and
            > instruction
            > > availability online and otherwise, etc).
            > >
            > > Am I correct seeing it that way or just too optimistic?
            > >
            > > Hung.
            > >
            >
          • hungvu2000@rogers.com
            I have seen the SAME with the 1st and 2nd waves (which include many of us on this list, ex-windsurfers, ex-sailors, ex-surfers or otherwise). You are doing the
            Message 5 of 11 , Oct 11, 2005
            • 0 Attachment
              I have seen the SAME with the 1st and 2nd waves (which include many of
              us on this list, ex-windsurfers, ex-sailors, ex-surfers or otherwise).

              You are doing the right things spreading the knowledge about the safety
              of the sport and there are more info, more instruction online and
              otherwise. So far I beleive we have done not bad. Ofcourse we still
              have to improve and continue doing this to the 3rd, 4th, 5th and etc. waves.

              Hung.

              amorw2002 wrote:

              >I live in Belgium but am kiting mostly in Holland.
              >It is true about the safety standards improving, as wel as the third
              >wave you write about, Stan.
              >However, there is a downside. Over here we have seen this third wave
              >already. People with no windsurf, sailing nor wave experience
              >entering the sport. People who used to come out only when the weather
              >was warm and calm. We can have tricky situations with fast changing
              >conditions due to clouds, windshifting and even thunderstorms.
              >It is pretty much impossible to explian to these people where the
              >danger lies when under a clear sky with a fine wind, even when you
              >point out a situation with high clouds in the neighbourhood.
              >Some of them will be fanatic, most of them only the first month or so.
              >resulting in people who start of with one kite, being on the water
              >almost every day or week for the first month or so. Later on this
              >will get to maybe 2 or 5 times a year,due to other occupations,whife,
              >sports,house renevation etc.. . When they are able too go out they
              >will go, even in infavourable, instable conditions. Now there finaly
              >back on the beach they have to make the most of this day, so they
              >will launch ther 16 or 14 m2, even when experienced riders fly half
              >of that and are having a though job.
              >Whe have seen some near- and real accidents over here, the last
              >couple of months, almost always with this third wave.
              >I like newbees entering the sport, but we all have a responsability
              >to them, others and to ourselves. Whe all need to keep them informed
              >about conditions, even when it appears that whe are menacing.
              >
              >Cheers,
              >
              >Stefan.
              >
              >
              >
              >--- In kitesurf@yahoogroups.com, "woodman_k" <woodman_k@y...> wrote:
              >
              >
              >>yes the gear in the last 3 years or so is pretty easy for people to
              >>learn on. The lower cost of the closeout kites is bringing kites
              >>
              >>
              >down
              >
              >
              >>to a point where some fence sitters are getting in. This year where
              >>
              >>
              >I
              >
              >
              >>live the winter will have a lot of newbies in what I see as a 3rd
              >>wave. The previuos 2 years was a 2nd wave but this 3rd wave looks
              >>
              >>
              >like
              >
              >
              >>it includes people other than ex windsurfers and therefore mch more
              >>potential growht.
              >>
              >>Cheers
              >>Stan
              >>--- In kitesurf@yahoogroups.com, Hung Vu <hungvu2000@r...> wrote:
              >>
              >>
              >>>It seems like we are heading the right directions with many
              >>>
              >>>
              >>improvements
              >>
              >>
              >>>in the sport in the couple years (near 100% depowerable kite,
              >>>
              >>>
              >larger
              >
              >
              >>>wind range, more kites selections, better board designs, better
              >>>
              >>>
              >>board
              >>
              >>
              >>>constructions, lower equipment cost, better technique and
              >>>
              >>>
              >>instruction
              >>
              >>
              >>>availability online and otherwise, etc).
              >>>
              >>>Am I correct seeing it that way or just too optimistic?
              >>>
              >>>Hung.
              >>>
              >>>
              >>>
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >If you are new to kitesurfing, please visit
              >http://www.KitesurfingSchool.org/faqs.htm for the answers
              >to the most frequently asked questions.
              >
              >=== to unsubscribe, please send an email to kitesurf-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com ===
              >Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • hungvu2000@rogers.com
              Some place may see growth, some place may not but that is not the subject of this thread. The fact that we have improved the sport (know how, safety,
              Message 6 of 11 , Oct 11, 2005
              • 0 Attachment
                Some place may see growth, some place may not but that is not the
                subject of this thread.

                The fact that we have improved the sport (know how, safety, production,
                etc.) is probably more important.

                I have seen rapid growth in 2002-2003 that may endanger the sport back
                then but now the growth is more moderate however the improvements really
                impressed me in the last year. It may be better that way ... for a
                while...

                Hung.

                ex_cpe wrote:

                >--- In kitesurf@yahoogroups.com, Hung Vu <hungvu2000@r...> wrote:
                >
                >
                >>It seems like we are heading the right directions with many improvements
                >>in the sport in the couple years (near 100% depowerable kite, larger
                >>wind range, more kites selections, better board designs, better board
                >>constructions, lower equipment cost, better technique and instruction
                >>availability online and otherwise, etc).
                >>
                >>Am I correct seeing it that way or just too optimistic?
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >
                >Hung: .....I'd say you pretty well cap'd the upside. But, I'd answer a question with a
                >question: As an instructor, how many students did you have in 2003 vs. 2005? You'll
                >have to factor out your input (reputaion, promotion, time available variance) to calculate
                >simple business growth coming in over the transom.
                >
                >I've been speculating for a couple of years that something like a Crossbow, in the short
                >term, mostly takes from Naish, Slingy, etc. sales rather than adds to the market. Best may
                >have provided a bump with Wamart kites...but I see almost zero evidence of the entry of
                >new people. ...not that any of my local crew is complaining mind you!
                >
                >And if you look at iktesurf.com classifieds; they have gone from 500's kites for sale to
                >600's...which could show growth...but, perhaps more indicative: the price of used gear has
                >headed to windsurfer territory.
                >
                >I've listed a 2005 Rapture with a lot of the features in your list. It listed new for $850+ (a
                >bargain compared to the CB)....it got zero attention at $500...little (other WWinger's
                >nervous) attention at $400....and little at $375. I've sold perfectly good kites for what we
                >paid for a B3 trainer a few years ago....but, aside from some whiny Arab who squealed like
                >a paid mourner at Arafat's funeral, only to people who had that kind of kite already in his
                >quiver.
                >
                >How's the traffic at kitesurf school? That was the number one online resource for me as a
                >newbie. I wonder how many school bookings there are in Cabarete vs a couple of years
                >ago? How many instructors can stay and make a modest 'kite' living? Kite destinations
                >seem to have come off the radar.
                >
                >I don't frankly care - I can do it - and I love it. Some people who come up to me ask how
                >much it costs, but most first say: "That looks hard!" Maybe I make it look hard...and
                >maybe American are lazy sods (we sure can be fat!)...so maybe as a sport it is growing like
                >weeds in Camaroon or Cambodia - I just don't see it looking out my cave.
                >
                >Contiuned good kiting my brothers - we share what seems like an open secret.
                >
                >jim
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >If you are new to kitesurfing, please visit
                >http://www.KitesurfingSchool.org/faqs.htm for the answers
                >to the most frequently asked questions.
                >
                >=== to unsubscribe, please send an email to kitesurf-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com ===
                >Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • woodman_k
                Stefan I think that is a good point too that the non-windsurfer types are really at risk in bad weather. Just no feeling as to how BAD it really is sometimes.
                Message 7 of 11 , Oct 11, 2005
                • 0 Attachment
                  Stefan
                  I think that is a good point too that the non-windsurfer types are
                  really at risk in bad weather. Just no feeling as to how BAD it
                  really is sometimes. I have been pushing the helmet a lot lately.
                  Even though a lot think it's too kooky.
                  Stan

                  --- In kitesurf@yahoogroups.com, "amorw2002"
                  <stefan.bleyenbergh@a...> wrote:
                  >
                  > I live in Belgium but am kiting mostly in Holland.
                  > It is true about the safety standards improving, as wel as the
                  third
                  > wave you write about, Stan.
                  > However, there is a downside. Over here we have seen this third
                  wave
                  > already. People with no windsurf, sailing nor wave experience
                  > entering the sport. People who used to come out only when the
                  weather
                  > was warm and calm. We can have tricky situations with fast changing
                  > conditions due to clouds, windshifting and even thunderstorms.
                  > It is pretty much impossible to explian to these people where the
                  > danger lies when under a clear sky with a fine wind, even when you
                  > point out a situation with high clouds in the neighbourhood.
                  > Some of them will be fanatic, most of them only the first month or
                  so.
                  > resulting in people who start of with one kite, being on the water
                  > almost every day or week for the first month or so. Later on this
                  > will get to maybe 2 or 5 times a year,due to other
                  occupations,whife,
                  > sports,house renevation etc.. . When they are able too go out they
                  > will go, even in infavourable, instable conditions. Now there
                  finaly
                  > back on the beach they have to make the most of this day, so they
                  > will launch ther 16 or 14 m2, even when experienced riders fly half
                  > of that and are having a though job.
                  > Whe have seen some near- and real accidents over here, the last
                  > couple of months, almost always with this third wave.
                  > I like newbees entering the sport, but we all have a responsability
                  > to them, others and to ourselves. Whe all need to keep them
                  informed
                  > about conditions, even when it appears that whe are menacing.
                  >
                  > Cheers,
                  >
                  > Stefan.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In kitesurf@yahoogroups.com, "woodman_k" <woodman_k@y...> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > yes the gear in the last 3 years or so is pretty easy for people
                  to
                  > > learn on. The lower cost of the closeout kites is bringing kites
                  > down
                  > > to a point where some fence sitters are getting in. This year
                  where
                  > I
                  > > live the winter will have a lot of newbies in what I see as a 3rd
                  > > wave. The previuos 2 years was a 2nd wave but this 3rd wave looks
                  > like
                  > > it includes people other than ex windsurfers and therefore mch
                  more
                  > > potential growht.
                  > >
                  > > Cheers
                  > > Stan
                  > > --- In kitesurf@yahoogroups.com, Hung Vu <hungvu2000@r...> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > It seems like we are heading the right directions with many
                  > > improvements
                  > > > in the sport in the couple years (near 100% depowerable kite,
                  > larger
                  > > > wind range, more kites selections, better board designs, better
                  > > board
                  > > > constructions, lower equipment cost, better technique and
                  > > instruction
                  > > > availability online and otherwise, etc).
                  > > >
                  > > > Am I correct seeing it that way or just too optimistic?
                  > > >
                  > > > Hung.
                  > > >
                  > >
                  >
                • dave@kiteship.com
                  A couple of comments on newbies and safety. Statistically, newbies aren t the ones most often killed--experienced kite surfers are. Safety is an ever-vigilance
                  Message 8 of 11 , Oct 11, 2005
                  • 0 Attachment
                    A couple of comments on newbies and safety. Statistically, newbies
                    aren't the ones most often killed--experienced kite surfers are.
                    Safety is an ever-vigilance thing, not simply a skill to be learned
                    then ignored.

                    Kite buggiers have a concept which might be worth sharing: Safety
                    is EVERYONE'S concern. If you see another kiter behaving in an unsafe
                    manner, it is YOUR beach and YOUR sport which will suffer in the end.
                    With this attitude, one feels much better about walking over and
                    saying, "I used to do it that way. It is dangerous. Let me show you a
                    safer way." Buggiers have been known to go to extreme lengths in this
                    pursuit--even "ganging up" to physically restrain extremely unsafe
                    kiters from doing harm.

                    Just a thought...

                    Dave Culp
                  • georgeiw@aol.com
                    Good thought Dave, It does seem to be newbies and experts that get hurt. Goal 1- get out of the newbie category, Goal 2- keep your head out of the expert
                    Message 9 of 11 , Oct 11, 2005
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Good thought Dave,
                      It does seem to be newbies and experts that get hurt. Goal 1- get out of the
                      newbie category, Goal 2- keep your head out of the expert category.

                      This weekend was our first blast of fall wind. Winds above 25 and everything
                      working.... but suddenly dangerous. After months of kiting in 8 to 12 it was
                      hard to remember the slams that you get at 25 gusting to sustained 35.

                      A simple reminder of the most dangerous situations.

                      1. kiting with hard objects down wind of you.
                      2. kiting with the kite in the zenith position waiting to get lofted.
                      3. kiting with a messed up launch. If the kite drifts backwards, with lots
                      of wind around, watch out for the explosion though the power zone when it
                      gets there. The lines will be slack, you will have no steering ability and you
                      will get taken for a dangerous ride.
                      If it starts to happen to you ... unhook and pull all the releases, you only
                      have about 1.5 seconds. Think about launching unhooked with the chicken
                      loop fully depowered. The worst thing that happens is that the kite gets ripped
                      out of your hands and straight to the leash.

                      I remember it well, all 3 times.
                      George


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Neil Harper
                      Dave I think Gang stuff might be a bit extreme but I totally agree with the sentiment. We in the UK live in an evermore litigious society and the fear of
                      Message 10 of 11 , Oct 12, 2005
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Dave I think Gang stuff might be a bit extreme but I totally agree with the
                        sentiment. We in the UK live in an evermore litigious society and the fear
                        of negligence and compensation claims is a huge factor in local government
                        decisions, so much so that you can get bans imposed just in case something
                        happens. We all know the beauty of kitesurfing is the sense of freedom it
                        gives. We all have to be sensible so that ignorance and or stupidity will
                        not reduce our freedoms. So if you have the attitude that someone behaving
                        dangerously is not your problem, it soon will be! :-)

                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: kitesurf@yahoogroups.com [mailto:kitesurf@yahoogroups.com]On
                        Behalf Of dave@...
                        Sent: 11 October 2005 22:19
                        To: kitesurf@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: [ksurf] Re: Where are we heading?


                        A couple of comments on newbies and safety. Statistically, newbies
                        aren't the ones most often killed--experienced kite surfers are.
                        Safety is an ever-vigilance thing, not simply a skill to be learned
                        then ignored.

                        Kite buggiers have a concept which might be worth sharing: Safety
                        is EVERYONE'S concern. If you see another kiter behaving in an unsafe
                        manner, it is YOUR beach and YOUR sport which will suffer in the end.
                        With this attitude, one feels much better about walking over and
                        saying, "I used to do it that way. It is dangerous. Let me show you a
                        safer way." Buggiers have been known to go to extreme lengths in this
                        pursuit--even "ganging up" to physically restrain extremely unsafe
                        kiters from doing harm.

                        Just a thought...

                        Dave Culp


                        If you are new to kitesurfing, please visit
                        http://www.KitesurfingSchool.org/faqs.htm for the answers
                        to the most frequently asked questions.

                        === to unsubscribe, please send an email to
                        kitesurf-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com ===
                        Yahoo! Groups Links
                      • ex_cpe
                        ... ...............in that context: We have improved the sport ...because we - being the sport - have improved. If the bulk of the people participating may
                        Message 11 of 11 , Oct 12, 2005
                        • 0 Attachment
                          --- In kitesurf@yahoogroups.com, hungvu2000@r... wrote:
                          >
                          > Some place may see growth, some place may not but that is not the
                          > subject of this thread.
                          >
                          > The fact that we have improved the sport (know how, safety, production,
                          > etc.) is probably more important.
                          >


                          ...............in that context: "We have improved the sport"...because we - being the sport -
                          have improved.

                          If the bulk of the people participating may now have two years+ expirence. The 'know
                          how, safety, etc.' automatically improve, likely at a faster rate, than any material
                          improvements like 5th lines, Bow shapes, etc. (hense the complaints of limitations of 5th's,
                          Bow's, etc) My local crew could pass IKO tests with 2002 kites and 185cm boards.

                          Jim
                        Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.