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RE: [ksurf] Re: Twinskins

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  • Mark Pronk
    I ll probably get kicked off this groupd for gining you the link the arcusers - we ll see. ROFL!!!! Whahaha... That d be the day Brad... Let s
    Message 1 of 5 , Jan 24, 2005
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      <snip>
      I'll probably get kicked off this groupd for gining you the link the
      arcusers - we'll see.
      </snip>

      ROFL!!!! Whahaha... That'd be the day Brad...

      Let's see.... :-)

      _________________
      Have fun!
      Mark


      Happy kiting, whatever you fly!
      foilzone.com foils.nl


      Foilzone.com
      The Hague
      The Netherlands

      M: info@...


      All we do is foilkites!


      -----Original Message-----
      From: Brad Fairchild [mailto:bradcfairchild@...]
      Sent: maandag 24 januari 2005 16:52
      To: kitesurf@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [ksurf] Re: Twinskins



      You may want to join the arcuser group if you have any questions that's
      a good place to ask.

      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/arcusers

      I fly Peter Lynn but most my kite biddies fly all kinds. One buddy got
      a couple bomba to learn on. So far we have not had many chances to get
      out and teach him. Just some light wind flying and body dragging. The
      Bomba seems to be a pretty stable easy to fly and launch, etc...

      No matter what kite you go with they all have there advantages. You
      get use to what your around. LEI are definitely more popular.

      I'll probably get kicked off this groupd for gining you the link the
      arcusers - we'll see.


      --- In kitesurf@yahoogroups.com, "Marina Kitto" <kitto2@b...> wrote:
      > Hi all
      >
      > I'm looking to buy my first kite, for kitesurfing. I'm 52 years
      old and like the look of twinskin/ram air kites, for example Peter
      Lynn Bomba. 90% of the kites flown in my area are inflatables. Why
      is this? What's wrong with twinskins? Am I missing something vital
      in the reading/research I've been doing before I buy my first kite?
      >
      > I seem to read that twinskins are more robust, easy to fly for
      beginners. If this is the case, why aren't there more of them?
      >
      > Looking forward to your helpful advice....
      >
      > Cheers
      > Graeme
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





      If you are new to kitesurfing, please visit
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      to the most frequently asked questions.

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    • Su Kay
      As previous guys said, it s your choice. But don t go comparing a PLK Twinskin to a Ram air kite! PLK s are in a category of their own. I have been
      Message 2 of 5 , Jan 24, 2005
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        As previous guys said, it's your choice. But don't go comparing a PLK
        Twinskin to a Ram air kite! PLK's are in a category of their own. I have
        been instructing for a couple of seasons and have taught people on Various
        brands of LEI's, Ozone, FlySurfer, Flexifoil Blades (in fact my first ever
        kite) and PLK Bomba's and Guerillas.

        PLK's have the advantage of you being able to tell the student not to hold
        onto the bar when putting the board on their feet. This way they don't
        crash and burn a hundred times before even getting going. The other thing
        is the chances of a PLK ending up in the water when you stuff up is much
        less than that of the LEI's ending in the water. Relaunching is not an
        issue with PLK's. The only problem comes if you want to try a traditional
        LEI self rescue and swim back lying on the kite.... You need to know that
        you can't lie on a TS, but you can still use it as a sail if you've broken a
        line etc. You just need to know how.

        PLK's are great kites and the new Venom's fly just like inflatables and have
        way more range than inflatables, with heaps of depower. Over the weekend
        the boys on the PLK Venoms were getting way more air and hangtime than the
        guys on inflatables. Underlooping and kitelooping are tricks you can do on
        these kites too... unhook if you want aswell, but if you wanna go big all
        you have to do is get a bit of air and sheet in and it's like an elevator!

        So to all those dedicated LEI flyers... DON"T BAG IT TILL YOU"VE TRIED IT!

        Inflatables are more common and have had a lot of money spent by all the
        brands (ie. Naish, Slingshot, Wipika, Rrd, Takoon, North etc. etc.) on
        Marketing. Peter Lynn Kites is one company, they've spent probably the same
        as a single LEI company on Marketing and many more years (since early 80's)
        on R&D.

        Give both a go if you can and decide for yourself.

        Happy kiting (with any kite, on any surface!)

        Su
      • georgeiw@aol.com
        Another point of view... First off I do not sell any kites I just keep them. LEIs North Rhino I 16 meter Cabrina 9.4 Cabrina 15.5 (20.5) Zero Prestige 12.5
        Message 3 of 5 , Jan 24, 2005
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          Another point of view...
          First off I do not sell any kites I just keep them.

          LEIs
          North Rhino I 16 meter
          Cabrina 9.4
          Cabrina 15.5 (20.5)
          Zero Prestige 12.5 v.2, www.zeroprestige.org
          Naish 3.5, 4 meter

          Foils
          Slingshot, B-2, B-3
          Kitesurfer 3.5 (XM), 9.66 XXXL
          Peter Lynn 3meter with very small inflation holes that I modified.
          F-ONE 4meter, 5 meter, 7 meter
          Flysurfer Titan 9.5, Psyho I 15.5, Psycho II 26
          Peter Lynn Guerilla II 13 meter.

          Don't knock them until you try them!
          For the lightest wind foils fly better, LEIs are too Heavy.
          For the heaviest wind small foils work, but so do arcs and LEIs and all three
          are dangerous in winds higher than 25
          With foils you have to learn how to mange the bridles, it is not that hard,
          just put them away in a daisy chain.
          With all of them you have to learn how to manage your lines.
          LEIs all get leaky bladders which can ruin your day.
          Arcs are the most stable and crash the least.
          LEIs are easier to relaunch if they are medium or low aspect. More kite
          sticks up out of the water so it is easier to flip them when they are face down.
          Arcs absorb gusts better than any other kite. They just collapse a bit but
          you don't feel a big jolt.
          Nothing relaunches in as little wind or as easy as the flysurfers, even with
          water in them.
          Arcs and Foils don't need to get pumped, which can be a drag on big kites.
          They do launch better in light wind if pre-inflated which you can do by holding
          them into the wind or even easier is to use a battery or gas powered leaf
          blower.
          Landing on a lee shore is dangerous with all of them and you have to learn to
          wind up one line to depower the kite so that it can not fly.
          Nothing depowers as much as a flysurfer. They have twice the range as a lei.
          You can only tilt the "C" shape of an Lei so much before it falls out of the
          sky. The foils tilt their entire profile to start with and then tilt up only
          the back edge at the end so that the kite flies like a streamer. This is very
          helpful when the wind drops out and you are not so close to shore or if the
          wind stokes up a lot.

          So, how did foils get such a bum rap? 5 or 6 years ago back when there were
          dinosaurs the most popular kites were the F-One foils. The did not depower
          and they did not relaunch well, in fact some of the sized did not fly or turn
          that well. Then came the inflatables and stole the thunder. There are many
          good inflatables. I like Naish and North and would be happy to try any of them.
          In the mean time the arc is a great compromise, no bladders, no bridles. They
          might be a little difficult to relaunch but they do relaunch. They are also
          difficult to crash so they probably end up even with the flysurfers but do not
          depower as much.
          In the last three years the flysurfers have changed the foil situation
          considerably. The air intake vents are much bigger than before so relaunch and
          pre-inflating are much easier. It is very easy to launch one of these kites solo.
          The depower bridle is a big leap forward from the f-one days and the kite
          shapes are also a lot better. They fly in less wind and turn much faster. There
          is another obscure foil company that I have flown that turns very quickly
          because of the pulley set up in their bridle. It is called jojo and the kite that
          I flew was called a rage. It comes more from the kite buggy side of things
          than the paraglider side.

          Why did flexifoil give up on foils and go to leis? Who knows? They make
          excelent leis in the "storm" but they practically invented the ram air kite 20
          years ago.
          In the mean time cabrina and others are making foil kites for snow. Sure
          LEIs work but it is no fun to seal off the bladders with your mittens off and the
          bladders can not take repeated crashes into the ground.
          So what should a 58 year old do trying to learn?

          First you will crash your kite a lot at the beginning. Start with small kites
          and used kites and don't skip the steps. You have no idea of all of the
          dangers that await you. Go slow and you might learn to kite before one of them
          get you. Take lessons. The instructor will have a full quiver of kites and will
          know which one is right for the day that you go.
          Get the biggest board that you can find or send me an email and I will send
          you a drawing of a big board that you will get up on. You can not improve
          before you get up.
          Then go out with the biggest board and the smallest kite that will work. You
          will get whipped around less with this approach. Once you have been out about
          10 times try a big kite in very light wind with a big board. This is a safe
          proposition. Very few people have been hurt in less than 10 mph of wind. Don't
          rush into this or you will get hurt.
          In the end you will probably want 3 kites. A trainer/ really heavy wind - in
          the 3 to 5 meter range, an every day kite in the 10 to 16 meter size and very
          light wind kite in the 15 to 20 meter size. If you start with the big kites
          you will get up and you will get hurt. There is a ton of kite flying skill
          and board skill that you need to learn in addition to safety issues like
          location and prevailing conditions.
          Remember that it is the beginners and experts that get hurt. Try not to
          become an expert.

          For the trainer kite I loved my Slingshot B-3 but it is no longer in
          production. Foils can crash more times than inflatos. The flexifoil blade could also
          work but you will find that most of the companies like Best, North, Air rush
          and others make foil trainers. 2 meter foils are no good. They need too much
          wind to work and they are really jumpy. In the middle range I would go for a
          medium aspect inflato, a Titan, or Spirit from Flysurfer or which ever is the
          equivalent from Peter Lynn. For the lightest wind i would go for the 28 meter
          monkey kite, the 17 flysurfer or a 20 contra. I am not sure of which huge
          inflatos work. I do know that my foils stay in the sky when the 20.5 Cabrinah will
          not stay in the air. I do not recommend that you try one of these big kites
          for at least 1 year. Try them in a lot of wind and you will regret it. They
          are always available used because some rookie did try them and almost got
          killed and would be happy to part company at half the price that they paid for it.
          Got to go back to work.
          George


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • crsaniv20y@aol.com
          Great post. Right on the money on the Flysurfer and Slingshot 3.0 I love both those kites. Has anyone tried the Extacy from Flysurfer yet? Any opinions on
          Message 4 of 5 , Jan 29, 2005
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            Great post. Right on the money on the Flysurfer and Slingshot 3.0 I love
            both those kites. Has anyone tried the Extacy from Flysurfer yet? Any opinions
            on the skill level needed.

            Tom Holloman
            A 17 year old with 41 years of practice.


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Brad Fairchild
            Thanks for the feedback. Taking the time to write such a novell helps us all. ... all three ... that hard, ... kite ... are face down. ... bit but ... even
            Message 5 of 5 , Feb 1, 2005
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              Thanks for the feedback. Taking the time to write such a novell
              helps us all.

              --- In kitesurf@yahoogroups.com, georgeiw@a... wrote:
              > Another point of view...
              > First off I do not sell any kites I just keep them.
              >
              > LEIs
              > North Rhino I 16 meter
              > Cabrina 9.4
              > Cabrina 15.5 (20.5)
              > Zero Prestige 12.5 v.2, www.zeroprestige.org
              > Naish 3.5, 4 meter
              >
              > Foils
              > Slingshot, B-2, B-3
              > Kitesurfer 3.5 (XM), 9.66 XXXL
              > Peter Lynn 3meter with very small inflation holes that I modified.
              > F-ONE 4meter, 5 meter, 7 meter
              > Flysurfer Titan 9.5, Psyho I 15.5, Psycho II 26
              > Peter Lynn Guerilla II 13 meter.
              >
              > Don't knock them until you try them!
              > For the lightest wind foils fly better, LEIs are too Heavy.
              > For the heaviest wind small foils work, but so do arcs and LEIs and
              all three
              > are dangerous in winds higher than 25
              > With foils you have to learn how to mange the bridles, it is not
              that hard,
              > just put them away in a daisy chain.
              > With all of them you have to learn how to manage your lines.
              > LEIs all get leaky bladders which can ruin your day.
              > Arcs are the most stable and crash the least.
              > LEIs are easier to relaunch if they are medium or low aspect. More
              kite
              > sticks up out of the water so it is easier to flip them when they
              are face down.
              > Arcs absorb gusts better than any other kite. They just collapse a
              bit but
              > you don't feel a big jolt.
              > Nothing relaunches in as little wind or as easy as the flysurfers,
              even with
              > water in them.
              > Arcs and Foils don't need to get pumped, which can be a drag on big
              kites.
              > They do launch better in light wind if pre-inflated which you can
              do by holding
              > them into the wind or even easier is to use a battery or gas
              powered leaf
              > blower.
              > Landing on a lee shore is dangerous with all of them and you have
              to learn to
              > wind up one line to depower the kite so that it can not fly.
              > Nothing depowers as much as a flysurfer. They have twice the range
              as a lei.
              > You can only tilt the "C" shape of an Lei so much before it falls
              out of the
              > sky. The foils tilt their entire profile to start with and then
              tilt up only
              > the back edge at the end so that the kite flies like a streamer.
              This is very
              > helpful when the wind drops out and you are not so close to shore
              or if the
              > wind stokes up a lot.
              >
              > So, how did foils get such a bum rap? 5 or 6 years ago back when
              there were
              > dinosaurs the most popular kites were the F-One foils. The did not
              depower
              > and they did not relaunch well, in fact some of the sized did not
              fly or turn
              > that well. Then came the inflatables and stole the thunder. There
              are many
              > good inflatables. I like Naish and North and would be happy to try
              any of them.
              > In the mean time the arc is a great compromise, no bladders, no
              bridles. They
              > might be a little difficult to relaunch but they do relaunch. They
              are also
              > difficult to crash so they probably end up even with the flysurfers
              but do not
              > depower as much.
              > In the last three years the flysurfers have changed the foil
              situation
              > considerably. The air intake vents are much bigger than before so
              relaunch and
              > pre-inflating are much easier. It is very easy to launch one of
              these kites solo.
              > The depower bridle is a big leap forward from the f-one days and
              the kite
              > shapes are also a lot better. They fly in less wind and turn much
              faster. There
              > is another obscure foil company that I have flown that turns very
              quickly
              > because of the pulley set up in their bridle. It is called jojo and
              the kite that
              > I flew was called a rage. It comes more from the kite buggy side
              of things
              > than the paraglider side.
              >
              > Why did flexifoil give up on foils and go to leis? Who knows? They
              make
              > excelent leis in the "storm" but they practically invented the ram
              air kite 20
              > years ago.
              > In the mean time cabrina and others are making foil kites for
              snow. Sure
              > LEIs work but it is no fun to seal off the bladders with your
              mittens off and the
              > bladders can not take repeated crashes into the ground.
              > So what should a 58 year old do trying to learn?
              >
              > First you will crash your kite a lot at the beginning. Start with
              small kites
              > and used kites and don't skip the steps. You have no idea of all
              of the
              > dangers that await you. Go slow and you might learn to kite before
              one of them
              > get you. Take lessons. The instructor will have a full quiver of
              kites and will
              > know which one is right for the day that you go.
              > Get the biggest board that you can find or send me an email and I
              will send
              > you a drawing of a big board that you will get up on. You can not
              improve
              > before you get up.
              > Then go out with the biggest board and the smallest kite that will
              work. You
              > will get whipped around less with this approach. Once you have been
              out about
              > 10 times try a big kite in very light wind with a big board. This
              is a safe
              > proposition. Very few people have been hurt in less than 10 mph of
              wind. Don't
              > rush into this or you will get hurt.
              > In the end you will probably want 3 kites. A trainer/ really heavy
              wind - in
              > the 3 to 5 meter range, an every day kite in the 10 to 16 meter
              size and very
              > light wind kite in the 15 to 20 meter size. If you start with the
              big kites
              > you will get up and you will get hurt. There is a ton of kite
              flying skill
              > and board skill that you need to learn in addition to safety issues
              like
              > location and prevailing conditions.
              > Remember that it is the beginners and experts that get hurt. Try
              not to
              > become an expert.
              >
              > For the trainer kite I loved my Slingshot B-3 but it is no longer
              in
              > production. Foils can crash more times than inflatos. The flexifoil
              blade could also
              > work but you will find that most of the companies like Best, North,
              Air rush
              > and others make foil trainers. 2 meter foils are no good. They
              need too much
              > wind to work and they are really jumpy. In the middle range I
              would go for a
              > medium aspect inflato, a Titan, or Spirit from Flysurfer or which
              ever is the
              > equivalent from Peter Lynn. For the lightest wind i would go for
              the 28 meter
              > monkey kite, the 17 flysurfer or a 20 contra. I am not sure of
              which huge
              > inflatos work. I do know that my foils stay in the sky when the
              20.5 Cabrinah will
              > not stay in the air. I do not recommend that you try one of these
              big kites
              > for at least 1 year. Try them in a lot of wind and you will regret
              it. They
              > are always available used because some rookie did try them and
              almost got
              > killed and would be happy to part company at half the price that
              they paid for it.
              > Got to go back to work.
              > George
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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