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Re: [ksurf] 5th line attached to leading edge?

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  • Dènis Riedijk
    The KCS system is not meant for that. KCS is for completely killing the power in the kite, while the kite falls down in a way that ensures easy relaunch. I
    Message 1 of 15 , Apr 14, 2004
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      The KCS system is not meant for that.
      KCS is for completely killing the power in the kite, while the kite falls
      down in a way that ensures easy relaunch. I believe it even could be used
      for extra depower, I remember reading a report like that from Sebastian
      Cattelan a while back.

      Dènis


      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Paul Matousek" <paul@...>
      To: <kitesurf@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2004 11:41 AM
      Subject: Re: [ksurf] 5th line attached to leading edge?


      > All you need is an attachment point on one of the outside struts - works
      > great relaunching of the snow/ice for me with an Airush Trio 12M looking
      > forward to open water in about a month :-)
      >
      > Paul Matousek
      > www.windplay,ca
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: "Neil Harper" <neil.harper@...>
      > To: <kitesurf@yahoogroups.com>
      > Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2004 1:30 PM
      > Subject: RE: [ksurf] 5th line attached to leading edge?
      >
      >
      > > Check out the Wipika KCS system I have a Matrix with the attachment
      points
      > > but still waiting for the 5th Line.
      > >
      > > -----Original Message-----
      > > From: Iain Wood [mailto:d.i.wood@...]
      > > Sent: 14 April 2004 19:14
      > > To: kitesurf@yahoogroups.com
      > > Subject: [ksurf] 5th line attached to leading edge?
      > >
      > >
      > > Hi,
      > >
      > > I heard of a system for use with larger leis where a 5th line is
      > > attached to the leading edge. This seems to make sense in that if
      > > things go wrong and you release all but the 5th line your kite will end
      > > up on its back with no lift and all ready to relaunch.
      > >
      > > Anyone have any experience of this, or any thoughts on retrofitting it
      > > to a 4 line lei?
      > >
      > > I have had a look through the archives, cos I know there was some
      > > discussion on 5th lines. All I came up with was a system where the 5th
      > > line is attached to the trailing edge, not the leading edge.
      > >
      > > Iain
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > This group is sponsored by KiteHIGH.com Kitesurfing
      > >
      > > http://www.KiteHIGH.com
      > > ph: 1 866 646 7835 Toll Free USA or
      > > ph: 1 808 637 KITE (5483)
      > > Em: support@...
      > >
      > > == to unsubscribe send an email to kitesurf-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      or
      > > go to www.yahoogroups.com/group/kitesurf ==
      > > Yahoo! Groups Links
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > This group is sponsored by KiteHIGH.com Kitesurfing
      > >
      > > http://www.KiteHIGH.com
      > > ph: 1 866 646 7835 Toll Free USA or
      > > ph: 1 808 637 KITE (5483)
      > > Em: support@...
      > >
      > > == to unsubscribe send an email to kitesurf-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      or
      > go to www.yahoogroups.com/group/kitesurf ==
      > > Yahoo! Groups Links
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >
      >
      >
      > This group is sponsored by KiteHIGH.com Kitesurfing
      >
      > http://www.KiteHIGH.com
      > ph: 1 866 646 7835 Toll Free USA or
      > ph: 1 808 637 KITE (5483)
      > Em: support@...
      >
      > == to unsubscribe send an email to kitesurf-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com or
      go to www.yahoogroups.com/group/kitesurf ==
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
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    • azza_lizard
      G day Iain, There is a promo video from Wipika floating around the net at the moment that shows the system in action. Unfortunately, like most net released
      Message 2 of 15 , Apr 15, 2004
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        G'day Iain,

        There is a promo video from Wipika floating around the net at the
        moment that shows the system in action. Unfortunately, like most net
        released videos, the quality doesn't show a lot of detail. Would it
        be
        possible for you, or anyone else, to post some good pictures showing
        the positioning of the attachment points in relation to struts etc.

        I'm sure more than just a few people would be interested in
        retrofitting this system to their kites.

        It might just be the biggest step in safety since the QR chicken loop.

        Regards,
        Aaron.
      • Chris Glazier
        There are two problems with any 5th line system. One is that any kite line causes significant drag and reduced performance. The second is that any extra line
        Message 3 of 15 , Apr 15, 2004
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          There are two problems with any 5th line system. One is that any
          kite line causes significant drag and reduced performance. The
          second is that any extra line adds complexity and can tangle.

          In snow kiting you need either a 5th line or a Cabrinha recon system
          since a normal relaunch may not be possible.

          However, on the water, the normal relaunch technique works fine. I
          relaunch my high aspect 18 meter kite (X3) reliably. It takes a bit
          of practise to learn, but it's far easier than flying with a 5th
          line all the time.

          If the leading edge bladder is pumped up hard, then almost any
          modern inflatable kite is relaunchable. Just practise.

          :-)
          Chris Glazier


          --- In kitesurf@yahoogroups.com, Iain Wood <d.i.wood@n...> wrote:
          > Hi,
          >
          > I heard of a system for use with larger leis where a 5th line is
          > attached to the leading edge. This seems to make sense in that if
          > things go wrong and you release all but the 5th line your kite
          will end
          > up on its back with no lift and all ready to relaunch.
          >
          > Anyone have any experience of this, or any thoughts on
          retrofitting it
          > to a 4 line lei?
          >
          > I have had a look through the archives, cos I know there was some
          > discussion on 5th lines. All I came up with was a system where the
          5th
          > line is attached to the trailing edge, not the leading edge.
          >
          > Iain
        • flkiter
          Chris, You should try the 5th line setup sometime, you ll be amazed at how simple and non-cumbersome it is. For one, there is no significant drag because A)
          Message 4 of 15 , Apr 15, 2004
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            Chris,
            You should try the 5th line setup sometime, you'll be amazed at how
            simple and non-cumbersome it is. For one, there is no significant
            drag because A) you use a thin, lightweight piece of spectra (since
            ther is never more that 100 lbs of force on this line) and... B) the
            5th line that I use stops at the top of my sheeting strap so you
            don't even notice it being there. It never tangles during deployment,
            unlike the front line system that I used to use. I simply clip my
            leash to the grab ring above the sheeting strap. Very clean and
            simple. You never have to swim towards your kite and it relaunches in
            seconds. It is especially helpful in waves since it lays the kite on
            its back and allows the wave to simply pass over with no force.
            You can see an illustration of the system that I use at:
            http://www.usakite.com/5thline.htm
            Check it out,
            Greg Kuklinski
            www.usakite.com



            --- In kitesurf@yahoogroups.com, "Chris Glazier" <cglazier@c...>
            wrote:
            > There are two problems with any 5th line system. One is that any
            > kite line causes significant drag and reduced performance. The
            > second is that any extra line adds complexity and can tangle.
            >
            > In snow kiting you need either a 5th line or a Cabrinha recon
            system
            > since a normal relaunch may not be possible.
            >
            > However, on the water, the normal relaunch technique works fine. I
            > relaunch my high aspect 18 meter kite (X3) reliably. It takes a bit
            > of practise to learn, but it's far easier than flying with a 5th
            > line all the time.
            >
            > If the leading edge bladder is pumped up hard, then almost any
            > modern inflatable kite is relaunchable. Just practise.
            >
            > :-)
            > Chris Glazier
            >
            >
            > --- In kitesurf@yahoogroups.com, Iain Wood <d.i.wood@n...> wrote:
            > > Hi,
            > >
            > > I heard of a system for use with larger leis where a 5th line is
            > > attached to the leading edge. This seems to make sense in that if
            > > things go wrong and you release all but the 5th line your kite
            > will end
            > > up on its back with no lift and all ready to relaunch.
            > >
            > > Anyone have any experience of this, or any thoughts on
            > retrofitting it
            > > to a 4 line lei?
            > >
            > > I have had a look through the archives, cos I know there was some
            > > discussion on 5th lines. All I came up with was a system where
            the
            > 5th
            > > line is attached to the trailing edge, not the leading edge.
            > >
            > > Iain
          • mobilekiteshop.com
            Correct me if Im wrong but basically the fifth line splits and attaches to two connection points on the leading edge of the kite at the front of the struts
            Message 5 of 15 , Apr 15, 2004
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              Correct me if Im wrong but basically the fifth line splits and attaches to
              two connection points on the leading edge of the kite at the front of the
              struts left and right of centre strut. When the kite crashes and ends up
              face down, holding onto this fifth line allows the kite to go over onto its
              back without you having to swim towards it and you then swim to the side and
              launch the kite in the normal way. I dont think it will magically relaunch
              the kite and you still need a good relaunch technique.

              Steve
              steve@... <mailto:steve@...>
              Ph: 00 353 87-7993612
            • kennywek@aol.com
              Hi Chris, Thank you for your comments about water re-launches without a 5th line. I m new to the sport and I would very much like to avoid using a 5th line, if
              Message 6 of 15 , Apr 15, 2004
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                Hi Chris,

                Thank you for your comments about water re-launches without a 5th line.
                I'm new to the sport and I would very much like to avoid using a 5th line, if
                possible. However, I expect to be doing a lot of water re-launches as soon as
                the water warms up and I don't want to be struggling unnecessarily in deep
                water with launches, if I can avoid it. Can you please describe the easiest way
                to get a kite on its back, without a 5th line, so the kite can be positioned
                for a water re-launch when it is face down in the water, down wind from the
                rider, with the inside of the kite toward the rider.


                Thank you,


                Bill Kenny
                kennywek@...


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Chris Glazier
                ... positioned ... Bill Go to the Files area of this group and look for Relunching tips. http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/kitesurf/files/ I collected these
                Message 7 of 15 , Apr 15, 2004
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                  --- In kitesurf@yahoogroups.com, kennywek@a... wrote:
                  > ..Can you please describe the easiest way
                  > to get a kite on its back, without a 5th line, so the kite can be
                  positioned
                  > for a water re-launch when it is face down in the water

                  Bill
                  Go to the Files area of this group and look for Relunching tips.
                  http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/kitesurf/files/

                  I collected these helpful posts about relaunching a couple of years
                  ago. The technique hasn't changed.

                  There are several relaunch setups like Cabrinha recon, Windwing
                  system, Wipika reverse launch bridle and 5th line that make it
                  easier to relaunch. I believe however that a skilled rider can
                  usually relaunch just as quickly using the normal techniques.

                  :-)
                  Chris Glazier
                • Chris Glazier
                  ... Greg Thanks for posting your link. Next snow kiting season I will rig up my line the way you show. It looks clean. But around here when the season changes
                  Message 8 of 15 , Apr 15, 2004
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                    --- In kitesurf@yahoogroups.com, "flkiter" <gregk1@g...> wrote:

                    > You can see an illustration of the system that I use at:
                    > http://www.usakite.com/5thline.htm
                    > Greg Kuklinski

                    Greg
                    Thanks for posting your link. Next snow kiting season I will rig up
                    my line the way you show. It looks clean.

                    But around here when the season changes from snow to water kiting,
                    we all take our 5th lines off our kites.

                    :-)
                    Chris Glazier
                  • kennywek@aol.com
                    In a message dated 4/15/2004 7:54:23 PM Central Daylight Time, cglazier@canada.com writes: http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/kitesurf/files/ Chris, Thanks
                    Message 9 of 15 , Apr 16, 2004
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                      In a message dated 4/15/2004 7:54:23 PM Central Daylight Time,
                      cglazier@... writes:
                      http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/kitesurf/files/
                      Chris,

                      Thanks very much for the advice on water re-launching. I expect that I
                      will need it for my first season at kiteboarding. Part of the attraction to this
                      sport is the generous assistance the experienced guys provide to those who
                      are trying to learn it.


                      Bill


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Scott Trepod
                      I ve been offline beating viruses and worms to death on my system, so I missed the beginning (and middle) of this topic. I ve been flying with a leading edge
                      Message 10 of 15 , Apr 16, 2004
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                        I've been offline beating viruses and worms to death on my system, so I
                        missed the beginning (and middle) of this topic.

                        I've been flying with a leading edge 5th line system for about 6 months
                        now; water and snow/ice. It has a lot of advantages over the trailing
                        edge 5th line; mainly that it totally kills the power when you go to the
                        leash, or even pull in the 5th line a little bit. As I approach the
                        beach, I just give the line a gentle tug and hold it and the decreased
                        angle of attack makes the kite just flutter down gently (no bursting
                        bladder) straight downwind. As long as you keep the 5th line wound a
                        couple of times ahead of the flying lines, the kite will just sit. In
                        fact, you can swim back upwind to your board with the kite leash
                        attached to your harness and the bar some distance up the lines (8
                        feet?). The pull is as hard as it is when you make the walk of shame
                        back upwind. This ability to self launch and land and the incredible
                        safety of being able to drop the bar and still relaunch easily is the
                        cat's pajamas.

                        No one has touched on the exact rigging of the stopper, which to the
                        inventor is the secret. He was very worried that an amateur wouldn't be
                        able to rig it correctly, but it's not that hard. Here is the posting I
                        made on Kite Forum a couple weeks ago...

                        You guys sure can make the simplest thing more difficult then it needs
                        to be.

                        Spread your arms. That's a good distance to space the cls straps on the
                        leading edge. Or half that, because it doesn't make any difference
                        regardless of what size kite, but you probably won't be putting this on
                        something less then 12m, because in enough wind for a 9m, you don't need
                        it (although the depower would sure come in handy in landing).

                        Open the zipper/velcro and slide the leading edge over the bottom arm of
                        your sewing machine. If your smart and/or chicken, I'd take the bladder
                        out first. I did the Naish 14m with the bladder out and the 20m Cabrinha
                        with it in, but you better make sure every minute that you're not sewing
                        through it. Sew about 10" of webbing around the leading edge sleeve,
                        with a loop near the middle and pretty near centered right on the
                        front-most part of the leading edge to tie the bridal line to.

                        Use Q-line or a spare flying line to make a bridle between the two
                        straps and put a nice pigtail in the middle. Don't ask how big the
                        triangle formed needs to be; it doesn't matter either.

                        Then run a larks head off a Q-line/flying line to the bridle, but leave
                        some extra for adjustments. You can always trim it back later. Now run
                        it down to about 5 meters from the bar, tie into another line that is
                        hand friendly (I use 3/16" soft leader line) and put a ball stopper at
                        the knot. Bring the leader line down through somewhere in your trim
                        strap where the line will slide but the ball won't go through. Add a
                        ring if you need to.

                        Ok, now the 'tricky part'. Not a big deal. Go out some morning with NO
                        WIND, blow up the kite, rig your lines and set the kite on the ground
                        with the leading edge facing the bar, the tips up straight in the air,
                        the bar slid up the cls line to the stopper ball, and the cls line tight.

                        Adjust the point where you tie the cls line to the bridle until the semi
                        slack flying lines just hold the kite from blowing over backwards, but
                        not too tight so they pull the tips toward the bar. You just want it to
                        sit stable upside down. The wind is going to load this up a bit so
                        you'll have to adjust it again in some breeze, so...

                        Go have breakfast and wait for the wind to pick up to about 6-10 mph,
                        then go out, rerig and check how it behaves with a little dynamic
                        loading. Just stake the end of the cls line (the bar end you will
                        shackle, or whatever, off to your harness when it's your leash) Make
                        sure the bar is slid all the way to the ball stopper. The flying lines
                        will form a catenary curve from the ground up to the tips of the kite,
                        and everything needs to be adjusted until they just hold the tips
                        straight up.

                        In a little more wind, make sure that the kite doesn't float upside down
                        off the ground; if it does, lengthen the bridal or the top flying line
                        portion of the cls line to effectively pull the tips of the kite toward
                        the bar, decreasing the angle of attack of the upside down kite with
                        respect to the ground and making it stay on the ground just gently.

                        I put this system on my kites when I first saw the KCS patent in France
                        and it is easily the coolest thing for a solo sailor you could come up
                        with. Genius. After sewing the straps, it takes about 15 minutes to
                        build the system and rig it. The best part is the safety it lends to
                        launching and landing; it is so depowered you can swim upwind dragging
                        the kite and lines. Or wind your lines when you get close (two line
                        lengths please) to shore. I still use a helper if there are people
                        around to launch, but landing I don't bother in case the wrong person
                        grabs it (untrained). I don't sail with other kiters because there
                        aren't any (I don't sail alone, just no kiters; I'm actively
                        recruiting...).

                        Wipika is brilliant for snatching this up; they're going to be selling a
                        lot of kites once sailors on the beach start seeing this one in action.

                        The original patent for the KCS system (KCS - Kite control system,
                        Wipika's CLS system) had a double fairlead on the bar for the chicken
                        loop on one side of the bar and the cls line on the other. I tried this
                        for about a month, then moved it up to the trim adjustment strap for
                        safety; it gets the pulled in line away from you in the water when you
                        have to relaunch.

                        Also landing, I never throw the bar; just come in and drop back into the
                        water, then start pulling the leash slightly. The angle of attack of the
                        kite goes negative and just decends gently to the sand, where you can
                        then let it go all the way to the cls leash. This puts it down soft as a
                        feather, then kills the power.

                        Try it on your big kite, and don't get hung up on the extra line; you'll
                        never notice it.

                        Scott
                        CT, USA


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • loco4olas
                        Shit Scott-thanks for all that effort-extremely helpful and descriptive post. ... From: Scott Trepod To:
                        Message 11 of 15 , Apr 21, 2004
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                          Shit Scott-thanks for all that effort-extremely helpful and descriptive
                          post.

                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: "Scott Trepod" <strepod5@...>
                          To: <kitesurf@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Saturday, April 17, 2004 4:09 AM
                          Subject: Re: [ksurf] 5th line attached to leading edge?


                          > I've been offline beating viruses and worms to death on my system, so I
                          > missed the beginning (and middle) of this topic.
                          >
                          > I've been flying with a leading edge 5th line system for about 6 months
                          > now; water and snow/ice. It has a lot of advantages over the trailing
                          > edge 5th line; mainly that it totally kills the power when you go to the
                          > leash, or even pull in the 5th line a little bit. As I approach the
                          > beach, I just give the line a gentle tug and hold it and the decreased
                          > angle of attack makes the kite just flutter down gently (no bursting
                          > bladder) straight downwind. As long as you keep the 5th line wound a
                          > couple of times ahead of the flying lines, the kite will just sit. In
                          > fact, you can swim back upwind to your board with the kite leash
                          > attached to your harness and the bar some distance up the lines (8
                          > feet?). The pull is as hard as it is when you make the walk of shame
                          > back upwind. This ability to self launch and land and the incredible
                          > safety of being able to drop the bar and still relaunch easily is the
                          > cat's pajamas.
                          >
                          > No one has touched on the exact rigging of the stopper, which to the
                          > inventor is the secret. He was very worried that an amateur wouldn't be
                          > able to rig it correctly, but it's not that hard. Here is the posting I
                          > made on Kite Forum a couple weeks ago...
                          >
                          > You guys sure can make the simplest thing more difficult then it needs
                          > to be.
                          >
                          > Spread your arms. That's a good distance to space the cls straps on the
                          > leading edge. Or half that, because it doesn't make any difference
                          > regardless of what size kite, but you probably won't be putting this on
                          > something less then 12m, because in enough wind for a 9m, you don't need
                          > it (although the depower would sure come in handy in landing).
                          >
                          > Open the zipper/velcro and slide the leading edge over the bottom arm of
                          > your sewing machine. If your smart and/or chicken, I'd take the bladder
                          > out first. I did the Naish 14m with the bladder out and the 20m Cabrinha
                          > with it in, but you better make sure every minute that you're not sewing
                          > through it. Sew about 10" of webbing around the leading edge sleeve,
                          > with a loop near the middle and pretty near centered right on the
                          > front-most part of the leading edge to tie the bridal line to.
                          >
                          > Use Q-line or a spare flying line to make a bridle between the two
                          > straps and put a nice pigtail in the middle. Don't ask how big the
                          > triangle formed needs to be; it doesn't matter either.
                          >
                          > Then run a larks head off a Q-line/flying line to the bridle, but leave
                          > some extra for adjustments. You can always trim it back later. Now run
                          > it down to about 5 meters from the bar, tie into another line that is
                          > hand friendly (I use 3/16" soft leader line) and put a ball stopper at
                          > the knot. Bring the leader line down through somewhere in your trim
                          > strap where the line will slide but the ball won't go through. Add a
                          > ring if you need to.
                          >
                          > Ok, now the 'tricky part'. Not a big deal. Go out some morning with NO
                          > WIND, blow up the kite, rig your lines and set the kite on the ground
                          > with the leading edge facing the bar, the tips up straight in the air,
                          > the bar slid up the cls line to the stopper ball, and the cls line tight.
                          >
                          > Adjust the point where you tie the cls line to the bridle until the semi
                          > slack flying lines just hold the kite from blowing over backwards, but
                          > not too tight so they pull the tips toward the bar. You just want it to
                          > sit stable upside down. The wind is going to load this up a bit so
                          > you'll have to adjust it again in some breeze, so...
                          >
                          > Go have breakfast and wait for the wind to pick up to about 6-10 mph,
                          > then go out, rerig and check how it behaves with a little dynamic
                          > loading. Just stake the end of the cls line (the bar end you will
                          > shackle, or whatever, off to your harness when it's your leash) Make
                          > sure the bar is slid all the way to the ball stopper. The flying lines
                          > will form a catenary curve from the ground up to the tips of the kite,
                          > and everything needs to be adjusted until they just hold the tips
                          > straight up.
                          >
                          > In a little more wind, make sure that the kite doesn't float upside down
                          > off the ground; if it does, lengthen the bridal or the top flying line
                          > portion of the cls line to effectively pull the tips of the kite toward
                          > the bar, decreasing the angle of attack of the upside down kite with
                          > respect to the ground and making it stay on the ground just gently.
                          >
                          > I put this system on my kites when I first saw the KCS patent in France
                          > and it is easily the coolest thing for a solo sailor you could come up
                          > with. Genius. After sewing the straps, it takes about 15 minutes to
                          > build the system and rig it. The best part is the safety it lends to
                          > launching and landing; it is so depowered you can swim upwind dragging
                          > the kite and lines. Or wind your lines when you get close (two line
                          > lengths please) to shore. I still use a helper if there are people
                          > around to launch, but landing I don't bother in case the wrong person
                          > grabs it (untrained). I don't sail with other kiters because there
                          > aren't any (I don't sail alone, just no kiters; I'm actively
                          > recruiting...).
                          >
                          > Wipika is brilliant for snatching this up; they're going to be selling a
                          > lot of kites once sailors on the beach start seeing this one in action.
                          >
                          > The original patent for the KCS system (KCS - Kite control system,
                          > Wipika's CLS system) had a double fairlead on the bar for the chicken
                          > loop on one side of the bar and the cls line on the other. I tried this
                          > for about a month, then moved it up to the trim adjustment strap for
                          > safety; it gets the pulled in line away from you in the water when you
                          > have to relaunch.
                          >
                          > Also landing, I never throw the bar; just come in and drop back into the
                          > water, then start pulling the leash slightly. The angle of attack of the
                          > kite goes negative and just decends gently to the sand, where you can
                          > then let it go all the way to the cls leash. This puts it down soft as a
                          > feather, then kills the power.
                          >
                          > Try it on your big kite, and don't get hung up on the extra line; you'll
                          > never notice it.
                          >
                          > Scott
                          > CT, USA
                          >
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                        • Iain Wood
                          ... Yes my thanks too, too all who responded to my q. Still dont know whether it s gonna get retrofitted to the 18m tho.... Iain
                          Message 12 of 15 , Apr 21, 2004
                          • 0 Attachment
                            On 21 Apr 2004, at 11:01, loco4olas wrote:

                            > Shit Scott-thanks for all that effort-extremely helpful and descriptive
                            > post.
                            >
                            >

                            Yes my thanks too, too all who responded to my q. Still dont know
                            whether it's gonna get retrofitted to the 18m tho....

                            Iain
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