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Re: [ksurf] kitesailing

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  • stefanoprosso
    Do you find that the hobie cat has much side slippage ? == It has none... Its actually a problem if you get hit by a gust cause it will tend to not have any
    Message 1 of 11 , Nov 12, 2003
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      Do you find that the hobie cat has much "side slippage"?

      == It has none... Its actually a problem if you get hit by a gust
      cause it will tend to not have any "give"

      With a convential rig (mast, sail) you can get the cat up on one
      hull which in turn makes it "edge".

      == no need ! It flies upwind !

      I wonder if the "steering guy" could be done away with completely by
      allowing your "tripod" or attach point to be able to move forward
      and aft - just like you steer a windsurf by moving the center of the
      sail's effect forward and aft.

      == I think the hobie 16 hull is too long. But we use it with 3-4
      people cause we do it for fun so we need the room. I think a 14
      would turn better... You need the rudders to get the boat to
      minimally turn fast enough. Peter lynn has 4 rudders on his cats...
      Front and rear...

      Anyway, I can't stop thinking about this topic ;) Pretty cool stuff.

      == it really impresses all the boat sailors too... Try not to dump
      your kite across the finish line of a regatta like we did... Also
      avoid big buoys with a cat cause once they get stuck under the boat
      it's a mess to deal with...!
      (from experience also !)
    • lynchmob000000
      Stefano, I ve been eyeing my neighbor s Hobie 16 that basically rotting in his yard, and I m about to make a generous offer to take it off his hands. The idea
      Message 2 of 11 , Nov 13, 2003
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        Stefano,

        I've been eyeing my neighbor's Hobie 16 that basically rotting in his
        yard, and I'm about to make a generous offer to take it off his
        hands. The idea would be to ditch all of the sail rigging & use a
        kite.

        why do you need to have a line attached at the back of the
        trampoline? Is your center point of the tripod over the center of
        the tramp.? Where do you sit in relation to the center point of your
        tripod?

        Sounds like you've been experimenting, but my intuitive setup would
        be to simply hook my stock chickenloop to a point near the Hobie's
        mast base. That way you'd have your full sheeting ability and the
        kite would steer like like it does over a kiteboard. This would also
        free up room on the trampoline to move around without a bunch of
        ropes getting in the way.





        --- In kitesurf@yahoogroups.com, "stefanoprosso" <stefano.rosso@a...>
        wrote:
        > On our hobie 16 we attach three ropes to create a anchoring point
        in
        > the middle of the boat. It basically is like a rope tripod.
        Connects
        > to the front two feet of the elastic bed and to the middle of the
        > bed at the back.
        >
        > We then connect the main lines of a 4 line kite to the anchor
        point.
        > I then have a free bar with the back lines going to the person
        > steering the kite.
        >
        > The additional person steers the boat and you yell at each other a
        > lot to get things synchronized... Keeping tension on the lines
        > takes some practice as the boat tends to slide very well in one
        > direction and nothing at all in the other ... Different from a
        board
        > which slides controllably pretty much in any direction.
      • stefanoprosso
        Hmmm... I can think of a few of reasons 1 - cente of effort (kite) must be across the center of resistance so that it will go straight. The Ceffort of the sail
        Message 3 of 11 , Nov 13, 2003
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          Hmmm... I can think of a few of reasons

          1 - cente of effort (kite) must be across the center of resistance
          so that it will go straight. The Ceffort of the sail is back from
          the mast foot

          2 - I actually sit under the lines - the anchor point is about 2-3
          feet up - so its more comfortable if it's a bit farther back. You
          need the anchor point up high so that you can actually steer the
          kite - you need room to swing the bar around.

          3 - having three well placed legs make the anchor point a pretty
          defined place. With only one or two points it will swing with the
          rope.

          4 - The ropes on the deck don't really get in the way for us... Its
          just one rope to jump over and it actually helps me locate myself
          while running around the deck while looking at the kite



          Heres an important recommendation... Take any useless crap of the
          cat... I get tons of cuts from all the metal gear all over the
          boat... And Wear rubber soled shoes so you don't slip

          Good luck and ill see you at the world kitesailing championship !

          Where do you sail ?

          --- In kitesurf@yahoogroups.com, lynchmob000000 <no_reply@y...>
          wrote:
          > Stefano,
          >
          > I've been eyeing my neighbor's Hobie 16 that basically rotting in
          his
          > yard, and I'm about to make a generous offer to take it off his
          > hands. The idea would be to ditch all of the sail rigging & use a
          > kite.
          >
          > why do you need to have a line attached at the back of the
          > trampoline? Is your center point of the tripod over the center of
          > the tramp.? Where do you sit in relation to the center point of
          your
          > tripod?
          >
          > Sounds like you've been experimenting, but my intuitive setup
          would
          > be to simply hook my stock chickenloop to a point near the Hobie's
          > mast base. That way you'd have your full sheeting ability and the
          > kite would steer like like it does over a kiteboard. This would
          also
          > free up room on the trampoline to move around without a bunch of
          > ropes getting in the way.
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > --- In kitesurf@yahoogroups.com, "stefanoprosso"
          <stefano.rosso@a...>
          > wrote:
          > > On our hobie 16 we attach three ropes to create a anchoring
          point
          > in
          > > the middle of the boat. It basically is like a rope tripod.
          > Connects
          > > to the front two feet of the elastic bed and to the middle of
          the
          > > bed at the back.
          > >
          > > We then connect the main lines of a 4 line kite to the anchor
          > point.
          > > I then have a free bar with the back lines going to the person
          > > steering the kite.
          > >
          > > The additional person steers the boat and you yell at each other
          a
          > > lot to get things synchronized... Keeping tension on the lines
          > > takes some practice as the boat tends to slide very well in one
          > > direction and nothing at all in the other ... Different from a
          > board
          > > which slides controllably pretty much in any direction.
        • dave@dcss.org
          Stephano is just about right on the money here. You can fly from the front beam/mast base (Jacob s Ladder did) but the boat will be out of balance, and you ll
          Message 4 of 11 , Nov 14, 2003
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            Stephano is just about right on the money here. You can fly from the
            front beam/mast base (Jacob's Ladder did) but the boat will be out of
            balance, and you'll be trying to get your weight forward to balance
            it--not a good thing. You'll also risk over powering and stalling the
            rudders, with attendant lack of control.

            If you are unsure of where to hook the kite in, prepare several
            different places around the boat. Just leave loops of stiff line
            (line in tubing works well) wherever you think you'll want to hook
            in. Start with a smaller kite--one you can unhook and hand-hold, and
            move it around until you're happy. Don't over-estimate your strength,
            it takes a much smaller kite to pull you off a boat than you normally
            kitesurf with. Boats can create *lots* more side-force than a board
            can, and you'll go right off.

            >1 - cente of effort (kite) must be across the center of resistance
            >so that it will go straight. The Ceffort of the sail is back from
            >the mast foot
            >
            >2 - I actually sit under the lines - the anchor point is about 2-3
            >feet up - so its more comfortable if it's a bit farther back. You
            >need the anchor point up high so that you can actually steer the
            >kite - you need room to swing the bar around.

            ...etc, etc. good stuff clipped...

            >Heres an important recommendation... Take any useless crap of the
            >cat... I get tons of cuts from all the metal gear all over the
            >boat... And Wear rubber soled shoes so you don't slip

            This can't be over-stressed. *Everything* will cut you,and what
            doesn't cut you will catch your kite lines. If you can't remove it,
            tape it over. Do this at the beginning, you'll save your first day on
            the water.

            Another suggestion; wear a pair of cut-down jeans or other shorts
            *over* your wet suit. If you don't you'll just rip your wet
            suit--again and again.

            At 12:09 PM -0800 11/13/03, Brian Bieger wrote:
            >I've never pulled my hobbie around with my kite but since I have been
            >sailing a hobbie 16 for 10 plus years I could hazard a guess that sheeting
            >in, flying a hull, and controlling everything while out on the trapeze is
            >hella more fun than being towed around at 10 knots by a kite.

            Dude, you have *noooo* idea. First, it's not 10 kts, it's more like
            20-25. Any day I couldn't beat a stock Hobie with my little kite
            boats, I took them back to the beach to see what was
            wrong--seriously. We often outran our support boat--a 16' ski boat
            with 60 hp outboard. It's been reliably clocked at 33 mph...

            Kiteboats fly, they climb up and skate across the water on their
            rudder tips. They can accelerate so fast as to leave you sitting on
            air. Imagine the wildest things you do with kiteboards, then imagine
            doing it with several hundred pounds of boat all around you and your
            friend(s) right there next to you to witness it all.

            Here's some photos:

            http://www.dcss.org/speedsl/
            Http://www.cobrakite.com/jaclad.html -- Jacob's Ladder
            http://www.dcss.org/speedsl/gallery.html

            The last URL includes some shots of high speed kite-cats, kite-proas,
            also some early kite-skiing (1990) and one *very* old pic of an early
            inflated leading edge kite (1978).

            Enjoy
          • Stefano Rosso
            Stephano is just about right on the money here. You can fly from the front beam/mast base (Jacob s Ladder did) but the boat will be out of balance, and you ll
            Message 5 of 11 , Nov 17, 2003
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              Stephano is just about right on the money here. You can fly from the front
              beam/mast base (Jacob's Ladder did) but the boat will be out of balance, and
              you'll be trying to get your weight forward to balance it--not a good thing.
              You'll also risk over powering and stalling the rudders, with attendant lack
              of control.

              If you are unsure of where to hook the kite in, prepare several different
              places around the boat. Just leave loops of stiff line (line in tubing works
              well) wherever you think you'll want to hook in. Start with a smaller
              kite--one you can unhook and hand-hold, and move it around until you're
              happy.

              === On a hobie 16 what works well for us in 10kts is about 20 inches from
              the mast foot.

              Don't over-estimate your strength, it takes a much smaller kite to pull you
              off a boat than you normally kitesurf with. Boats can create *lots* more
              side-force than a board can, and you'll go right off.

              == YES ! We felt overpowered in 10 kts ! If we had the boat just right...

              === another tip - I like using arcs because we can sometimes just let go of
              the kite while we fix other little things - we leave the kite unattended and
              can worry about other issues (like getting the sailing regatta buoy out from
              under the boat!)
            • lynchmob000000
              See, that s why I ask questions. All good points that I hadn t considered. Now how about setting it up so the bar travels from hull to hull? Any value there?
              Message 6 of 11 , Nov 17, 2003
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                See, that's why I ask questions. All good points that I hadn't
                considered.

                Now how about setting it up so the bar travels from hull to hull?
                Any value there? Seems like you'd want to pull from as close to the
                downwind hull to prevent flying the upwind hull (unless you want to!).

                Started negotiations with the neighbor. He's pretty attached to his
                rotting hulk. Upon close inpsection, the thing's a basketcase
                anyway. I'll continue working on him, but probably a better bet
                would be to find a boat for sale.

                Anybody got an old Hobie around San Francisco they want to get rid of?


                Brian

                --- In kitesurf@yahoogroups.com, "stefanoprosso" <stefano.rosso@a...>
                wrote:
                > Hmmm... I can think of a few of reasons
                >
                > 1 - cente of effort (kite) must be across the center of resistance
                > so that it will go straight. The Ceffort of the sail is back from
                > the mast foot
                >
                > 2 - I actually sit under the lines - the anchor point is about 2-3
                > feet up - so its more comfortable if it's a bit farther back. You
                > need the anchor point up high so that you can actually steer the
                > kite - you need room to swing the bar around.
                >
                > 3 - having three well placed legs make the anchor point a pretty
                > defined place. With only one or two points it will swing with the
                > rope.
                >
                > 4 - The ropes on the deck don't really get in the way for us... Its
                > just one rope to jump over and it actually helps me locate myself
                > while running around the deck while looking at the kite
                >
                >
                >
                > Heres an important recommendation... Take any useless crap of the
                > cat... I get tons of cuts from all the metal gear all over the
                > boat... And Wear rubber soled shoes so you don't slip
                >
                > Good luck and ill see you at the world kitesailing championship !
                >
                > Where do you sail ?
                >
                > --- In kitesurf@yahoogroups.com, lynchmob000000 <no_reply@y...>
                > wrote:
                > > Stefano,
                > >
                > > I've been eyeing my neighbor's Hobie 16 that basically rotting in
                > his
                > > yard, and I'm about to make a generous offer to take it off his
                > > hands. The idea would be to ditch all of the sail rigging & use
                a
                > > kite.
                > >
                > > why do you need to have a line attached at the back of the
                > > trampoline? Is your center point of the tripod over the center
                of
                > > the tramp.? Where do you sit in relation to the center point of
                > your
                > > tripod?
                > >
                > > Sounds like you've been experimenting, but my intuitive setup
                > would
                > > be to simply hook my stock chickenloop to a point near the
                Hobie's
                > > mast base. That way you'd have your full sheeting ability and
                the
                > > kite would steer like like it does over a kiteboard. This would
                > also
                > > free up room on the trampoline to move around without a bunch of
                > > ropes getting in the way.
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > --- In kitesurf@yahoogroups.com, "stefanoprosso"
                > <stefano.rosso@a...>
                > > wrote:
                > > > On our hobie 16 we attach three ropes to create a anchoring
                > point
                > > in
                > > > the middle of the boat. It basically is like a rope tripod.
                > > Connects
                > > > to the front two feet of the elastic bed and to the middle of
                > the
                > > > bed at the back.
                > > >
                > > > We then connect the main lines of a 4 line kite to the anchor
                > > point.
                > > > I then have a free bar with the back lines going to the person
                > > > steering the kite.
                > > >
                > > > The additional person steers the boat and you yell at each
                other
                > a
                > > > lot to get things synchronized... Keeping tension on the lines
                > > > takes some practice as the boat tends to slide very well in one
                > > > direction and nothing at all in the other ... Different from a
                > > board
                > > > which slides controllably pretty much in any direction.
              • Stefano Rosso
                Now how about setting it up so the bar travels from hull to hull? Any value there? Seems like you d want to pull from as close to the downwind hull to prevent
                Message 7 of 11 , Nov 17, 2003
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                  Now how about setting it up so the bar travels from hull to hull?
                  Any value there? Seems like you'd want to pull from as close to the
                  downwind hull to prevent flying the upwind hull (unless you want to!).

                  You just need room so you can steer it... One way to do this is have the
                  back lines on TOP of the front lines... (remember I use a free bar...) kind
                  of an inverted freebar...
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