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RE: [ksurf] Kitesurfing boom in 2006?

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  • Andre Myburgh
    ... We should be so lucky. I think the patent part of the kite price is negligible. LEI prices will only drop significantly if: A. The 2-5 middle men each stop
    Message 1 of 11 , Oct 27, 2003
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      > From: Hung Vu <hungvu2000@...>
      > Subject: Kitesurfing boom in 2006?

      > The LEI patent will be expired on Nov 7, 2005.

      > Does it mean that price will drop quite a bit and we'll see a
      > kitesurfing boom in Spring 2006?

      > Hung.

      We should be so lucky. I think the patent part of the kite price is
      negligible. LEI prices will only drop significantly if:

      A. The 2-5 middle men each stop adding 50 - 100% to the price, and start
      charging for the value they add (very little).
      B. We stop buying LEI's at these inflated (pun intended) prices and start
      flying cheap foils (an anomaly itself nowadays).

      Unfortunately, there's enough rich b@stards out there who can afford 4-5
      brand new kites every year to keep the industry happy. LEI prices will never
      drop.

      Geez, feels good to get that off my chest.

      André
    • Chris Glazier
      Hi Hung I don t think that the patent has much effect on kite prices. There are lots of manufacturers now including some companies who do not pay patent
      Message 2 of 11 , Oct 27, 2003
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        Hi Hung
        I don't think that the patent has much effect on kite prices. There
        are lots of manufacturers now including some companies who do not
        pay patent royalties. Their prices are all similar. This seems to be
        the cost of kites and it wont change unless there is much more
        volume and we get efficiencies of scale. I doubt that this will
        happen.

        Anyone who thinks that kite prices are too high is welcome to
        manufacture, distribute, retail, and market their own kite brand.
        Don't count on getting rich.

        Chris Glazier


        --- In kitesurf@yahoogroups.com, Andre Myburgh <andrem@c...> wrote:
        >
        > > From: Hung Vu <hungvu2000@r...>
        > > Subject: Kitesurfing boom in 2006?
        >
        > > The LEI patent will be expired on Nov 7, 2005.
        >
        > > Does it mean that price will drop quite a bit and we'll see a
        > > kitesurfing boom in Spring 2006?
        >
        > > Hung.
        >
        > We should be so lucky. I think the patent part of the kite price is
        > negligible. LEI prices will only drop significantly if:
        >
        > A. The 2-5 middle men each stop adding 50 - 100% to the price, and
        start
        > charging for the value they add (very little).
        > B. We stop buying LEI's at these inflated (pun intended) prices
        and start
        > flying cheap foils (an anomaly itself nowadays).
        >
        > Unfortunately, there's enough rich b@stards out there who can
        afford 4-5
        > brand new kites every year to keep the industry happy. LEI prices
        will never
        > drop.
        >
        > Geez, feels good to get that off my chest.
        >
        > André
      • LA2WNDSRF@aol.com
        A bit of water sport related history - (as a (now) part time windsurfer and 90% of the time kiting.) When the patent expired (1987) with windsurfing (about 60+
        Message 3 of 11 , Oct 27, 2003
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          A bit of water sport related history -
          (as a (now) part time windsurfer and 90% of the time kiting.)

          When the patent expired (1987) with windsurfing (about 60+ patents total),
          the pricing did not change much.

          But the Choices of Better Product increased tremendously(sails, booms,
          boards,etc.) because royalty fees and patent enfringement was no longer a direct
          financial cost in the manufacturing process. Because it reduced the cost to the
          manf/wholesaler, it allowed for improvements in design and product - but still
          keeping close to the original pre-patent expiration price. Other
          windsurfer-kiting manufacturers/wholesalers may be able to verify this.

          So if what I am saying on my historical perspective comes to pass-, look
          forward to better LEI kites, bars, etc.- anything that was included in the
          original patent.
          FYI - it doesn't stop NEW patents being filed that are qualified enough in
          the sport (i.e.:total new bladder LEI design).
          Scott
          ol'time waterman

          Many times, designs are held back (smart) until the patent expires or almost
          expires, so that a NEW product or patent can be filed - for another 17-20
          years!


          In a message dated 10/27/2003 8:25:36 AM Pacific Standard Time,
          cglazier@... writes:
          Hi Hung
          I don't think that the patent has much effect on kite prices. There
          are lots of manufacturers now including some companies who do not
          pay patent royalties. Their prices are all similar. This seems to be
          the cost of kites and it wont change unless there is much more
          volume and we get efficiencies of scale. I doubt that this will
          happen.

          Anyone who thinks that kite prices are too high is welcome to
          manufacture, distribute, retail, and market their own kite brand.
          Don't count on getting rich.

          Chris Glazier

          Scott


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • John Penxa
          Hey Chris, I agree 100%! The issue at hand is pure economics. Prices will remain high until demand increases. Only when production increases and the sales are
          Message 4 of 11 , Oct 27, 2003
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            Hey Chris,

            I agree 100%!

            The issue at hand is pure economics.
            Prices will remain high until demand increases. Only when production
            increases and the sales are there to support those #'s will the
            consumer enjoy the 'economy of scale'

            cheers,

            John Penxa


            > Anyone who thinks that kite prices are too high is welcome to
            > manufacture, distribute, retail, and market their own kite brand.
            > Don't count on getting rich.
            >
            > Chris Glazier
            >
            >
            > --- In kitesurf@yahoogroups.com, Andre Myburgh <andrem@c...> wrote:
            > >
            > > > From: Hung Vu <hungvu2000@r...>
            > > > Subject: Kitesurfing boom in 2006?
            > >
            > > > The LEI patent will be expired on Nov 7, 2005.
            > >
            > > > Does it mean that price will drop quite a bit and we'll see a
            > > > kitesurfing boom in Spring 2006?
            > >
            > > > Hung.
            > >
            > > We should be so lucky. I think the patent part of the kite price
            is
            > > negligible. LEI prices will only drop significantly if:
            > >
            > > A. The 2-5 middle men each stop adding 50 - 100% to the price,
            and
            > start
            > > charging for the value they add (very little).
            > > B. We stop buying LEI's at these inflated (pun intended) prices
            > and start
            > > flying cheap foils (an anomaly itself nowadays).
            > >
            > > Unfortunately, there's enough rich b@stards out there who can
            > afford 4-5
            > > brand new kites every year to keep the industry happy. LEI prices
            > will never
            > > drop.
            > >
            > > Geez, feels good to get that off my chest.
            > >
            > > André
          • Eddy Cormon
            Just hope that the chineese don t get wages increase, else our kites will become even more expensive. I expect the chineese to get significant higher wages
            Message 5 of 11 , Oct 28, 2003
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              Just hope that the chineese don't get wages increase, else our kites
              will become even more expensive.
              I expect the chineese to get significant higher wages before 2006
              --- In kitesurf@yahoogroups.com, "John Penxa" <johnpenxa@h...> wrote:
              > Hey Chris,
              >
              > I agree 100%!
              >
              > The issue at hand is pure economics.
              > Prices will remain high until demand increases. Only when
              production
              > increases and the sales are there to support those #'s will the
              > consumer enjoy the 'economy of scale'
              >
              > cheers,
              >
              > John Penxa
              >
              >
              > > Anyone who thinks that kite prices are too high is welcome to
              > > manufacture, distribute, retail, and market their own kite brand.
              > > Don't count on getting rich.
              > >
              > > Chris Glazier
              > >
              > >
              > > --- In kitesurf@yahoogroups.com, Andre Myburgh <andrem@c...>
              wrote:
              > > >
              > > > > From: Hung Vu <hungvu2000@r...>
              > > > > Subject: Kitesurfing boom in 2006?
              > > >
              > > > > The LEI patent will be expired on Nov 7, 2005.
              > > >
              > > > > Does it mean that price will drop quite a bit and we'll see a
              > > > > kitesurfing boom in Spring 2006?
              > > >
              > > > > Hung.
              > > >
              > > > We should be so lucky. I think the patent part of the kite
              price
              > is
              > > > negligible. LEI prices will only drop significantly if:
              > > >
              > > > A. The 2-5 middle men each stop adding 50 - 100% to the price,
              > and
              > > start
              > > > charging for the value they add (very little).
              > > > B. We stop buying LEI's at these inflated (pun intended) prices
              > > and start
              > > > flying cheap foils (an anomaly itself nowadays).
              > > >
              > > > Unfortunately, there's enough rich b@stards out there who can
              > > afford 4-5
              > > > brand new kites every year to keep the industry happy. LEI
              prices
              > > will never
              > > > drop.
              > > >
              > > > Geez, feels good to get that off my chest.
              > > >
              > > > André
            • dave@dcss.org
              ... Currently Chinese sweatshop workers are paid about $6 (US) per week. Yeah, a dollar a day. In Mexico, it s $5/day. Trust me, labor prices aren t a factor
              Message 6 of 11 , Oct 28, 2003
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                >Just hope that the chineese don't get wages increase, else our kites
                >will become even more expensive.
                >I expect the chineese to get significant higher wages before 2006

                Currently Chinese sweatshop workers are paid about $6 (US) per week.
                Yeah, a dollar a day. In Mexico, it's $5/day. Trust me, labor prices
                aren't a factor in your kites. If they doubled/tripled, you'd pay
                maybe $10-20 more at retail.

                FWIW, there's a war on just now in kite pricing. Some of the majors
                are selling kites at wholesale for less than the kites cost to build
                (too many manufacturers, too few sales. It's a market share thing).
                You the consumer are getting some of the best pricing ever for kites,
                to complain about it is beyond stupid.

                What are you getting? What if you made it yourself? Take a 16 m^
                inflatable. You'll need about 25 meters of cloth (including waste),
                at $5-7/meter, wholesale = $250-300. You'll need the LEI bladder and
                strut bladders; wholesale what, perhaps $150? $200? You're getting a
                set of lines, attachments, bits and blocks on the kite. Wholesale
                about $50. You're getting a dozen or 15 hours of skilled labor (yeah,
                a buck and a quarter in China, but what are *you* worth?). Call it
                $12/hour (USA sweatshop labor rate), or $180.

                Build it yourself and you'll put out $550 in wholesale materials and
                $180 in skilled labor. Thank God those "middlemen" didn't rape you.
                OH, I almost forgot; the above would be for your *second* kite, as
                the first would have to be written off as a practice job.

                OTOH, you can buy a Naish at retail for about a grand. Naish maybe
                got $500 for it, wholesale. Their *entire* profit in the deal came
                from volume purchasing. No built-in margin at all. The wholesaler got
                $150, had to buy 100 kites for cash and warehouse/ship them to
                retailers for this "profit". The retailer got $250-350 for the
                privilege of stocking the kite and gear, paying his rent, listening
                to your bitching and convincing you you're a better kitesurfer than
                you are--oh and handling your "returns" of gear you slaughtered, then
                swore was defective.

                Ask yourself honestly, who's the real winner in this chain? Yeah, I
                thought so. Now go out and have some fun.

                Dave

                I have no idea what Naish pays Bruno for royalty fees; industry
                average is about 5% of ex-factory price. Call it $25/kite. Will this
                change your life when it expires? D'you think it changes the lives of
                all the manufacturers who *don't* pay Bruno? I don't get the whole
                knock-off thing. I've spent more on 4 beers...

                D.
              • speleolab
                I ve just made a 7.5m LEI from the (Zero Prestige site). The fabric cost me £82, the bladders fabric £20. Lines (£45) bar, QR plus bits and bobs another
                Message 7 of 11 , Oct 31, 2003
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                  I've just made a 7.5m LEI from the (Zero Prestige site). The fabric
                  cost me £82, the bladders fabric £20. Lines (£45) bar, QR plus bits
                  and bobs another £80 (I bought "trade" in most of the above cases)
                  This adds up to £227 which appears to be under half the price in the
                  shops or mags. Kiteshops often mark up by 100% so as you can see the
                  margin for the manufacturer is minimal. This is without labour.
                  Time wise its taken along time. Mainly pattern making and sourcing
                  stuff, sewing it is quite easy. My second kite of the same size
                  will be really quite quick (one weekend). However I enjoy making
                  kites so dont cost my time into it.
                  The other thing is that I dont have to cover warranty claims. The
                  shop price includes a significant price to cover these (with boards
                  its even more of a factor).
                  So in general if anyones making the money its the shop / middle men,
                  but then I dont believe kiteshops are gold mines. Therefore I
                  believe the end price is understandable. (although some designs,
                  especially from a fabrication point of view are not value from money
                  and are have serious compremises).
                  I would say £500 for a board is far less value for money (specially
                  when I can make a plyboard for under £35 that works and looks good.
                  Anyway thats my 2 penny worth.
                  Andy R


                  --- In kitesurf@yahoogroups.com, dave@d... wrote:
                  > >Just hope that the chineese don't get wages increase, else our
                  kites
                  > >will become even more expensive.
                  > >I expect the chineese to get significant higher wages before 2006
                  >
                  > Currently Chinese sweatshop workers are paid about $6 (US) per
                  week.
                  > Yeah, a dollar a day. In Mexico, it's $5/day. Trust me, labor
                  prices
                  > aren't a factor in your kites. If they doubled/tripled, you'd pay
                  > maybe $10-20 more at retail.
                  >
                  > FWIW, there's a war on just now in kite pricing. Some of the majors
                  > are selling kites at wholesale for less than the kites cost to
                  build
                  > (too many manufacturers, too few sales. It's a market share thing).
                  > You the consumer are getting some of the best pricing ever for
                  kites,
                  > to complain about it is beyond stupid.
                  >
                  > What are you getting? What if you made it yourself? Take a 16 m^
                  > inflatable. You'll need about 25 meters of cloth (including waste),
                  > at $5-7/meter, wholesale = $250-300. You'll need the LEI bladder
                  and
                  > strut bladders; wholesale what, perhaps $150? $200? You're getting
                  a
                  > set of lines, attachments, bits and blocks on the kite. Wholesale
                  > about $50. You're getting a dozen or 15 hours of skilled labor
                  (yeah,
                  > a buck and a quarter in China, but what are *you* worth?). Call it
                  > $12/hour (USA sweatshop labor rate), or $180.
                  >
                  > Build it yourself and you'll put out $550 in wholesale materials
                  and
                  > $180 in skilled labor. Thank God those "middlemen" didn't rape you.
                  > OH, I almost forgot; the above would be for your *second* kite, as
                  > the first would have to be written off as a practice job.
                  >
                  > OTOH, you can buy a Naish at retail for about a grand. Naish maybe
                  > got $500 for it, wholesale. Their *entire* profit in the deal came
                  > from volume purchasing. No built-in margin at all. The wholesaler
                  got
                  > $150, had to buy 100 kites for cash and warehouse/ship them to
                  > retailers for this "profit". The retailer got $250-350 for the
                  > privilege of stocking the kite and gear, paying his rent, listening
                  > to your bitching and convincing you you're a better kitesurfer than
                  > you are--oh and handling your "returns" of gear you slaughtered,
                  then
                  > swore was defective.
                  >
                  > Ask yourself honestly, who's the real winner in this chain? Yeah, I
                  > thought so. Now go out and have some fun.
                  >
                  > Dave
                  >
                  > I have no idea what Naish pays Bruno for royalty fees; industry
                  > average is about 5% of ex-factory price. Call it $25/kite. Will
                  this
                  > change your life when it expires? D'you think it changes the lives
                  of
                  > all the manufacturers who *don't* pay Bruno? I don't get the whole
                  > knock-off thing. I've spent more on 4 beers...
                  >
                  > D.
                • Rodrigo Marin
                  where do you buy bladders fabric ? cost me £82, the bladders fabric £20. Lines (£45) bar, QR plus bits
                  Message 8 of 11 , Nov 3, 2003
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                    where do you buy bladders fabric ?


                    cost me £82, the bladders fabric £20. Lines (£45) bar, QR plus bits
                  • Meyer, Chris (MOZ)
                    China kites from Chen are only 170 USD for kite...Bar & 30m Dyneema Lines 60 USD
                    Message 9 of 11 , Nov 4, 2003
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                      China kites from Chen are only 170 USD for kite...Bar & 30m Dyneema Lines 60
                      USD
                    • woodman_k
                      -Hi Chris Can you give me a website or email for this china kite product? thanks stan -- In kitesurf@yahoogroups.com, Meyer, Chris (MOZ) ... Dyneema Lines 60
                      Message 10 of 11 , Nov 4, 2003
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                        -Hi Chris

                        Can you give me a website or email for this china kite product?
                        thanks
                        stan

                        -- In kitesurf@yahoogroups.com, "Meyer, Chris (MOZ)"
                        <chris.meyer@m...> wrote:
                        > China kites from Chen are only 170 USD for kite...Bar & 30m
                        Dyneema Lines 60
                        > USD
                      • geoff hopkins
                        I have two (2) wetsuits for sale that would be great for this upcoming, or current cold weather. One is a spring suit, the other is a full suit. Both are in
                        Message 11 of 11 , Nov 4, 2003
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                          I have two (2) wetsuits for sale that would be great
                          for this upcoming, or current cold weather.

                          One is a spring suit, the other is a full suit. Both
                          are in great working condition.

                          you can see pictures, and more information on them on
                          my messageboard, or this link:

                          http://www.kitecorpus.com/community/viewforum.php?f=8&sid=6b738ac7ed2b76340464b87ef52e7564

                          let me know what you all think,

                          Thanks,
                          Geoffrey
                          kitecorpus.com

                          In order to view the pictures, you have to register as
                          a user. Takes about 1 minute to do.

                          geo

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