Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

[ksurf] Re: Quick Release vs Deadman

Expand Messages
  • Dave Culp
    ... As you say, a personal decision. You should know that it was a system such as yours--a kite handle attached to a runaway kite--which killed a child several
    Message 1 of 11 , Oct 31, 1998
    • 0 Attachment
      Lex:
      >The question whether to use a quick release or a deadman release is in my
      >opinion a personal one....

      >Currently I use a quickrelease which keeps the handles and the steering
      >mechanism attached to the kite. I build a release based on the one used on a
      >parachuteharness. It's a system of interlocking D-rings so you can loosen
      >yourself from the kite even at full traction.

      As you say, a personal decision. You should know that it was a system
      such as yours--a kite handle attached to a runaway kite--which killed a
      child several years ago on the beach. The handle hit her in the temple
      (side of forehead), crushing her skull. Doctors said such a blow would
      have killed a grown man. Horribly bad luck, but something to think about.
      Do you *really* want your entire bar flying through the air, at perhaps
      twice the windspeed as it pendulums down behind the runaway kite?

      --
      Dave Culp Speedsailing dave@... http://www.dcss.org/speedsl
      Kite powered boats, high speed sailing, proas and more. Check it out!


      ------------------------------------------------------------------------
      Subscribe, unsubscribe, opt for a daily digest, or start a new e-group
      at http://www.eGroups.com -- Free Web-based e-mail groups.
    • Hung Vu
      ... Dave, you can call me Hung. ... I originally had a similar idea using knots and ring; however I dropped it in the end due to the following reasons: 1- The
      Message 2 of 11 , Nov 1, 1998
      • 0 Attachment
        Dave Culp wrote:
        >
        > What I think Hung Vu means (I apologize, is your first name Hung or Vu?)
        > is that it is possible to take a wrist strap line to a point several
        > meters up one line. His "tube" device is not necessary, in my view. Just
        > attach the wrist line to the main flying line, perhaps at a knot (tie a
        > figure 8 knot in the main line, then use a lark's head knot to attach the
        > wrist line. Better, use a sewn-in overwrap, which won't weaken the flying
        > line--see below). On letting go of the bar, the wrist line will keep only
        > one line attached to the flyer. I'm sure many kite surfers use this.
        >

        Dave, you can call me Hung.

        > Taking it a bit further, the wrist line can end in a small metal ring,
        > running free on a "reeled" kiteline. Near the end of the line, a "button"
        > (thickened spot in the line, perhaps a large knot, or bead, or sewn-in
        > overwrap of small thread, varnished or epoxied to make it rigid), small
        > enough to pass through the fairleads on the (altered) flying bar, yet too
        > large to pass through the wrist-strap line ring, will effectively attach
        > the wrist strap to one flying line, yet allow freely reeling the line in
        > and out.
        >

        I originally had a similar idea using knots and ring; however I dropped
        it in the end due to the following reasons:

        1- The main attraction of the reel system (as far as I know) is such
        that the kitesurfer can fly the kite at any desired line length without
        having to change the line (am I right or was it my wish? Depending on
        the condition and kite size, I have to change my lines between 20m to
        30m on my control bar). I am not sure how to support flying with
        different line length with a knots&ring quick release system.
        2- I afraid knots will weaken the line.
        3- I afraid knots or any "buttons" (if big enough) may create
        line-locking-up when reeling in or out

        >Using this concept relies on the wrist strap *not* coming un-velcro-ed,
        >as happened to Dave. This bothers me a bit as, if completely foolproof,
        >could endanger your arm. Yet it keeps the entire kite attached to the
        >flyer, and is easy to recover--just swim to the bar or pull it to you,
        >after the kite goes in.

        The un-velcro-ed wrist strap also bothers me (what happens if a boat
        catches one of the line and drag you along with it?). I am just
        wondering whether a double-velcro system (one attached to your wrist,
        the other one attached to your harness) is more desirable.

        Hung.
        ------------------------------------------------------------------------
        Subscribe, unsubscribe, opt for a daily digest, or start a new e-group
        at http://www.eGroups.com -- Free Web-based e-mail groups.
      • Pierce Nichols
        ... This sounds like an excellent idea. Why do you think it has to be rigid? Also, are you sure that a metal ring of the approprate size will be strong enough?
        Message 3 of 11 , Nov 1, 1998
        • 0 Attachment
          On Sat, 31 Oct 1998, Dave Culp wrote:

          > Taking it a bit further, the wrist line can end in a small metal ring,
          > running free on a "reeled" kiteline. Near the end of the line, a "button"
          > (thickened spot in the line, perhaps a large knot, or bead, or sewn-in
          > overwrap of small thread, varnished or epoxied to make it rigid), small
          > enough to pass through the fairleads on the (altered) flying bar, yet too
          > large to pass through the wrist-strap line ring, will effectively attach
          > the wrist strap to one flying line, yet allow freely reeling the line in
          > and out.

          This sounds like an excellent idea. Why do you think it has to be
          rigid? Also, are you sure that a metal ring of the approprate size will be
          strong enough? I think sleeving a bit of line in the appropriate place,
          then folding it over and sewing it together would do the trick. You might
          need slightly large fairleads, but that's pretty easy.

          > Using this concept relies on the wrist strap *not* coming un-velcro-ed,
          > as happened to Dave. This bothers me a bit as, if completely foolproof,
          > could endanger your arm. Yet it keeps the entire kite attached to the
          > flyer, and is easy to recover--just swim to the bar or pull it to you,
          > after the kite goes in.

          Well, instead of attaching the safety line to your wrist, you
          could clip it to your harness, or possibly even a simple secondary
          harness, like a chest strap, so it still works even if your harness
          breaks. This takes care of the risk of a broken arm and the wrist strap
          coming undone.

          -p

          "There are four boxes that are used in the defense of liberty.
          Soap, Ballot, Jury, and Ammo. Use in that order."

          -Anon

          ------------------------------------------------------------------------
          Subscribe, unsubscribe, opt for a daily digest, or start a new e-group
          at http://www.eGroups.com -- Free Web-based e-mail groups.
        • Ian Young
          I m having a little difficulty following some of these descriptions. Can someone post some sketches as JPEG file attachments please. Cheers, Ian WinDesigns
          Message 4 of 11 , Nov 1, 1998
          • 0 Attachment
            I'm having a little difficulty following some of these descriptions.

            Can someone post some sketches as JPEG file attachments please.

            Cheers,
            Ian

            WinDesigns Australia:
            9 Oliver St, Scarborough, WA, AUSTRALIA, 6019
            Phone/Fax: +61 8 9245 4657
            Mobile: 0414 716 812
            Email: IanYoung@...
            Webpage: http://www.iinet.net.au/~ianyoung/

            ------------------------------------------------------------------------
            Subscribe, unsubscribe, opt for a daily digest, or start a new e-group
            at http://www.eGroups.com -- Free Web-based e-mail groups.
          • Ian Young
            ... When ridge soaring my hang glider on coastal sites I always take a hook knife. Maybe I should take it Kite Ski&Surfing too! Cheers, Ian WinDesigns
            Message 5 of 11 , Nov 1, 1998
            • 0 Attachment
              > The un-velcro-ed wrist strap also bothers me (what happens if a boat
              > catches one of the line and drag you along with it?).

              When ridge soaring my hang glider on coastal sites I always take a hook knife.
              Maybe I should take it Kite Ski&Surfing too!

              Cheers,
              Ian

              WinDesigns Australia:
              9 Oliver St, Scarborough, WA, AUSTRALIA, 6019
              Phone/Fax: +61 8 9245 4657
              Mobile: 0414 716 812
              Email: IanYoung@...
              Webpage: http://www.iinet.net.au/~ianyoung/

              ------------------------------------------------------------------------
              Subscribe, unsubscribe, opt for a daily digest, or start a new e-group
              at http://www.eGroups.com -- Free Web-based e-mail groups.
            • Dave Culp
              Have a look at commercial fishing set-ups. On any boat using outriggers (salmon, albacore, swordfish; most hobbiest sportfishermen), they use similar systems.
              Message 6 of 11 , Nov 2, 1998
              • 0 Attachment
                Have a look at commercial fishing set-ups. On any boat using outriggers
                (salmon, albacore, swordfish; most hobbiest sportfishermen), they use
                similar systems. Generally they use a ring tied into the main line, with
                the line running freely through another ring attached to the outrigger
                pole. The main-line ring is designed to pass through all
                pulleys/fairleads/winches, just not through the (final) smaller ring on
                the outrigger pole line. Using this, the outrigger takes the pull when
                trolling, but the fisherman takes the fish over when fighting it, just by
                reeling in some line.

                >> Taking it a bit further, the wrist line can end in a small metal ring,
                >> running free on a "reeled" kiteline. Near the end of the line, a "button"
                >> (thickened spot in the line, perhaps a large knot, or bead, or sewn-in
                >> overwrap of small thread, varnished or epoxied to make it rigid), small
                >> enough to pass through the fairleads on the (altered) flying bar, yet too
                >> large to pass through the wrist-strap line ring, will effectively attach
                >> the wrist strap to one flying line, yet allow freely reeling the line in
                >> and out.
                >
                > This sounds like an excellent idea. Why do you think it has to be
                >rigid? Also, are you sure that a metal ring of the approprate size will be
                >strong enough? I think sleeving a bit of line in the appropriate place,
                >then folding it over and sewing it together would do the trick. You might
                >need slightly large fairleads, but that's pretty easy.

                --
                Dave Culp Speedsailing dave@... http://www.dcss.org/speedsl
                Kite powered boats, high speed sailing, proas and more. Check it out!


                ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                Subscribe, unsubscribe, opt for a daily digest, or start a new e-group
                at http://www.eGroups.com -- Free Web-based e-mail groups.
              • Ian Young
                I don t want anyone to take this the wrong way - I assure you that I want this sport to be as safe as possible. But I think with the number of learners (myself
                Message 7 of 11 , Nov 3, 1998
                • 0 Attachment
                  I don't want anyone to take this the wrong way - I assure you that I want this
                  sport to be as safe as possible.

                  But I think with the number of learners (myself included) that are reading these
                  postings on quick and deadman releases, that a point is made about the
                  importance of commitment, determination and judgement.

                  I have been developing a training package for the school I will be starting soon
                  and when teaching friends and family I have found that it takes some time for
                  people to get used to the power that these kites can generate.

                  A common fault I have observed is that until confidence is built through
                  practise/ experience, people tend to lack commitment and determination to keep
                  control of the kite at all times eg often when a power kite starts to pull hard,
                  learners tend to walk toward the kite rather than lean back against the pull -
                  obvious to the experienced kite flyer: without tension on the lines you can't
                  effectively control the kite!

                  I would hate to see people defaulting to releasing a kite pre-maturely rather
                  than fighting to regain/ keep control of a kite. Even with all the released
                  discussed to date you still have a kite falling or flying with lines trailing
                  from it that can still injure people or tangle on stationary or moving objects.
                  A kite without tension on the lines (released or otherwise) is still out of
                  control!

                  The key IMO, is judgement of when to release a kite because there is no chance
                  of bringing it back under control.

                  Something else that may be worth considering that we use hang gliding when aero
                  or vehicle towing is the compulsory use of weak-links (usually 1.2G) in addition
                  to a "three ring circus" quick release.

                  Cheers,
                  Ian

                  WinDesigns Australia:
                  9 Oliver St, Scarborough, WA, AUSTRALIA, 6019
                  Phone/Fax: +61 8 9245 4657
                  Mobile: 0414 716 812
                  Email: IanYoung@...
                  Webpage: http://www.iinet.net.au/~ianyoung/

                  ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  Subscribe, unsubscribe, opt for a daily digest, or start a new e-group
                  at http://www.eGroups.com -- Free Web-based e-mail groups.
                • Michel Montmigny
                  Ian Young wrote: I don t want anyone to take this the wrong way - I assure you that I want this sport to be as safe as possible. But I think with
                  Message 8 of 11 , Nov 3, 1998
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Ian Young wrote:
                    >
                    > I don't want anyone to take this the wrong way - I assure you that I want this
                    > sport to be as safe as possible.
                    >
                    > But I think with the number of learners (myself included) that are reading these
                    > postings on quick and deadman releases, that a point is made about the
                    > importance of commitment, determination and judgement.
                    >
                    > I have been developing a training package for the school I will be starting soon
                    > and when teaching friends and family I have found that it takes some time for
                    > people to get used to the power that these kites can generate.
                    >
                    > A common fault I have observed is that until confidence is built through
                    > practise/ experience, people tend to lack commitment and determination to keep
                    > control of the kite at all times eg often when a power kite starts to pull hard,
                    > learners tend to walk toward the kite rather than lean back against the pull -
                    > obvious to the experienced kite flyer: without tension on the lines you can't
                    > effectively control the kite!
                    >
                    > I would hate to see people defaulting to releasing a kite pre-maturely rather
                    > than fighting to regain/ keep control of a kite. Even with all the released
                    > discussed to date you still have a kite falling or flying with lines trailing
                    > from it that can still injure people or tangle on stationary or moving objects.
                    > A kite without tension on the lines (released or otherwise) is still out of
                    > control!
                    >
                    > The key IMO, is judgement of when to release a kite because there is no chance
                    > of bringing it back under control.
                    >
                    > Something else that may be worth considering that we use hang gliding when aero
                    > or vehicle towing is the compulsory use of weak-links (usually 1.2G) in addition
                    > to a "three ring circus" quick release.
                    >
                    > Cheers,
                    > Ian
                    >
                    > WinDesigns Australia:
                    > 9 Oliver St, Scarborough, WA, AUSTRALIA, 6019
                    > Phone/Fax: +61 8 9245 4657
                    > Mobile: 0414 716 812
                    > Email: IanYoung@...
                    > Webpage: http://www.iinet.net.au/~ianyoung/
                    >
                    > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                    > Know someone who deserves flowers? At proflowers.com, it's only $29.95
                    >
                    > plus S & H ($5.95 for most domestic locations) for one dozen roses and
                    >
                    > shipped direct from the grower via Fedex Priority Overnight.
                    >
                    > http://www.proflowers.com/eg.cfm
                    >
                    > Subscribe, unsubscribe, opt for a daily digest, or start a new e-group
                    > at http://www.eGroups.com -- Free Web-based e-mail groups.


                    Just few worlds to say that the most important thing to learn(to me) and
                    know about Kitesurfing sport, is how manage the kite in any conditions.
                    After that let's go on the water and have fun.
                    For a 10 hours kitesurfing lesson, I teach 70% kites practice.

                    I make traction kites(TRACTIONtm) since 1991 and practice traction sport
                    since that time, this is my first kitesurfing season and it's going
                    well.

                    I agree with all those that are trying to make that sport very safe,
                    this is the only one way to grow.

                    Have nice breeze

                    Michel Montminy
                    www.conceptair.com
                    ______________________________________________________________________
                    Know someone who deserves flowers? At proflowers.com, it's only $29.95
                    plus S & H ($5.95 for most domestic locations) for one dozen roses and
                    shipped direct from the grower via Fedex Priority Overnight.
                    http://www.proflowers.com/eg.cfm

                    Subscribe, unsubscribe, opt for a daily digest, or start a new e-group
                    at http://www.eGroups.com -- Free Web-based e-mail groups.
                  Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.