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[ksurf] Re: how to switch sides without getting lofted?

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  • hungvuatnetcomdotca
    ... hooked in. ... release. Brian, So how is it safer than launching the kite while hooking in to the chicken loop with a working QR system (e.g., Recon,
    Message 1 of 20 , Oct 2, 2003
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      --- In kitesurf@yahoogroups.com, "Suntrax" <brian@s...> wrote:
      > Hung
      >
      > I don't think I said it was safer than anything, other than being
      hooked in.
      > Yes you must release the bar and then activate an eye level quick
      release.

      Brian,

      So how is it safer than launching the kite while hooking in to the
      chicken loop with a "working" QR system (e.g., Recon, Ocean Rodeo
      punch out bar, pin release, QR on the chicken loop, etc.)?

      Hung.
    • Stefano Rosso
      Hi Stefano Please also read my answer to Hung. == I did. You are generally correct except that if you have to let go of the bar, the Quick Release is right in
      Message 2 of 20 , Oct 2, 2003
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        Hi Stefano

        Please also read my answer to Hung.

        == I did.

        You are generally correct except that if you have to let go of the bar,
        the Quick Release is right in front of your eyes at the bottom of the
        depower-strap part of the UDS system, which then acts on one middle line
        like most modern (production)leashes. There is then another QR if you
        have to dump everything. You have to try it to understand it,

        == I guess I do understand it then...

        I was also very sceptical beforehand and I reiterate, it is not the
        ultimate answer to all safety concerns, but I don't think Naish hyped it
        as such.

        == I think that the leash they developed with its improved ability to
        swivel is the novelty on this bar. Everything else is "old" in that many
        of us already had this type of functionality on their home made bars.
        Its good that there is a production model available though...

        == I apologize if I sound sceptic... I am just making fun of their 200%
        depower which just sounds like hype of something other kite bars have
        had for a long time... There is a naish mafia here in brazil that tends
        to hype EVERYTHING naish kites launches, even before they have tried it
        themselves... So we like to tease them a bit...
      • mobilekiteshop.com
        The quickest and safest quick release system is the Ocean rodeo punch out system. I would like to see more manufacturers go in this direction. When you punch
        Message 3 of 20 , Oct 2, 2003
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          The quickest and safest quick release system is the Ocean rodeo punch out
          system. I would like to see more manufacturers go in this direction. When
          you punch out you are left with both hands on the bar which means you still
          have the decision to hold on to the bar or to release it. You do not have to
          let go with one hand and feel around for a quick release which may take you
          one crucial second longer than just punching out, the punch out is
          immediate, your brain says im lofting or this gust is too much I wont be
          able to hold it and as soon as your brain says it you are released with one
          movement. I am sure it is the safest system out there and I am sure there is
          a way that you clever people out there could self rig your own versions of
          it.

          Pog ma hon.
          Steve
          steve@... <mailto:steve@...>
          Ph: 087-7993612
        • Stefano Rosso
          your brain says im lofting or this gust is too much I wont be able to hold it and as soon as your brain says it you are released with one movement. My
          Message 4 of 20 , Oct 2, 2003
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            your brain says im lofting or this gust is too much I wont be able to
            hold it and as soon as your brain says it you are released with one
            movement.

            My experience in loftings has been that the brain always realizes that
            you are being lofted when you are way way up... You cannot know how high
            you will go until you are way way up there... And then your reaction is
            normally to grab the bar for dear life !
          • hungvuatnetcomdotca
            My experience so far is that if I hooked in, I would not be able to unhook until 10 + high up (the time it take to do something, e.g., pulling on some release,
            Message 5 of 20 , Oct 2, 2003
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              My experience so far is that if I hooked in, I would not be able to
              unhook until 10'+ high up (the time it take to do something, e.g.,
              pulling on some release, would make it even higher).

              If I am unhooked (and not attached to the kite except for the "true"
              safety leash), the bar simply ripped right out of my hand (2
              occasions: one a few years ago with my wipika 3.5 in 35 - 40 knots -
              Luke Stanek, the world buggy fastest man was there - and the other
              case just recently with my AR5 11.5 in very steep wind gradient).
              This "skill" may not be automatic to some as stefano has stated but it
              can be learned.

              In any case, being unhooked (and not attached to the kite except for
              the "true" safety leash) when in doubt is desirable as after the
              initial contact, the kite is fully disable and cannot cause further
              damages (damage to the kitesurf or damage to the bystanders). Just
              imaging an injured, unconcious 170 lbs kitesurfer get dragged over an
              infant in the pinic area or the parking lot - kitesurfing will sure be
              banned immediately and indefinitely.

              Hung.

              --- In kitesurf@yahoogroups.com, "Stefano Rosso" <stefano.rosso@a...>
              wrote:
              > your brain says im lofting or this gust is too much I wont be able to
              > hold it and as soon as your brain says it you are released with one
              > movement.
              >
              > My experience in loftings has been that the brain always realizes that
              > you are being lofted when you are way way up... You cannot know how high
              > you will go until you are way way up there... And then your reaction is
              > normally to grab the bar for dear life !
            • Stefano Rosso
              If I am unhooked (and not attached to the kite except for the true safety leash), the bar simply ripped right out of my hand (2 occasions: one a few years
              Message 6 of 20 , Oct 2, 2003
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                If I am unhooked (and not attached to the kite except for the "true"
                safety leash), the bar simply ripped right out of my hand (2
                occasions: one a few years ago with my wipika 3.5 in 35 - 40 knots -
                Luke Stanek, the world buggy fastest man was there - and the other case
                just recently with my AR5 11.5 in very steep wind gradient).
                This "skill" may not be automatic to some as stefano has stated but it
                can be learned.

                == if the bar is getting ripped out of your hand then that's one thing.
                If you are getting lofted in such a way that the bar doesn't get ripped
                out of your hands then your first reaction is to try and control the
                kite ... Then you suddenly realize you are way up...
              • mobilekiteshop.com
                its all very well to say that you should be unhooked but the reality of the situation is that most people wont unhook, I could be out riding and I see a very
                Message 7 of 20 , Oct 2, 2003
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                  its all very well to say that you should be unhooked but the reality of the
                  situation is that most people wont unhook, I could be out riding and I see a
                  very dark cloud coming and I would be very aware of a possible large change
                  in the wind. So if for some reason it is not practical to come in or it is
                  safer to stay far away from the shore in case of possible lofting I will
                  ride with the kite as low as possible and when I tack I will turn the kite
                  at the bottom of the window as much as possible and not let it rise up. At
                  the same time I know if a huge gust comes in that in a split second I can be
                  free of the kite with this type of punch out release whereas with all other
                  forms of release that I know of I would have to go looking for some kind of
                  grab ball, loop, quick release somewhere, how fast can you find and pull
                  your quick release? if you get lofted how high does that extra time allow
                  you to get.

                  Pog ma hon
                  Steve
                  steve@... <mailto:steve@...>
                  Ph: 087-7993612

                  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                • hungvuatnetcomdotca
                  The Ocean Rodeo definitely has an advantage in this situation. However, people should at least unhooked (and not attached to the kite except for the true
                  Message 8 of 20 , Oct 2, 2003
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                    The Ocean Rodeo definitely has an advantage in this situation.

                    However, people should at least unhooked (and not attached to the kite
                    except for the "true" safety leash) on land and near people/hard objects.

                    Snowboarding was banned at many resorts in the early days because of
                    comments like this from the skiers: "I don't mind snowboarders go out
                    and kill themselves but it bothers me to watch an injured snowboarder
                    hurt skiers".

                    So injure or kill yourself, but once you become unconcious, please
                    don't hurt or kill other people.

                    Hung.

                    --- In kitesurf@yahoogroups.com, "mobilekiteshop.com" <steve@m...> wrote:
                    > its all very well to say that you should be unhooked but the reality
                    of the
                    > situation is that most people wont unhook, I could be out riding and
                    I see a
                    > very dark cloud coming and I would be very aware of a possible large
                    change
                    > in the wind. So if for some reason it is not practical to come in or
                    it is
                    > safer to stay far away from the shore in case of possible lofting I will
                    > ride with the kite as low as possible and when I tack I will turn
                    the kite
                    > at the bottom of the window as much as possible and not let it rise
                    up. At
                    > the same time I know if a huge gust comes in that in a split second
                    I can be
                    > free of the kite with this type of punch out release whereas with
                    all other
                    > forms of release that I know of I would have to go looking for some
                    kind of
                    > grab ball, loop, quick release somewhere, how fast can you find and pull
                    > your quick release? if you get lofted how high does that extra time
                    allow
                    > you to get.
                    >
                    > Pog ma hon
                    > Steve
                    > steve@m... <mailto:steve@m...>
                    > Ph: 087-7993612
                    >
                    > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                    http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  • mobilekiteshop.com
                    I agree with you and its great to say that Hung but realistically people wont do it, I suppose I am changing the subject and considering quicker ways to
                    Message 9 of 20 , Oct 2, 2003
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                      I agree with you and its great to say that Hung but realistically people
                      wont do it, I suppose I am changing the subject and considering quicker ways
                      to activate your quick release, I think that the delay caused by having to
                      let go of your bar and reaching somewhere else to activate your release
                      increases risk and there should be a better way, maybe the release could be
                      unde your hand on the bar somehow, I am sure someone here could work it out?


                      Steve
                      steve@... <mailto:steve@...>
                      Ph: 087-7993612


                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: hungvuatnetcomdotca [mailto:hungvu2000@...]
                      Sent: 03 October 2003 00:19
                      To: kitesurf@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: RES: [ksurf] RE:design a better quick release was ( how to
                      switch sides with


                      The Ocean Rodeo definitely has an advantage in this situation.

                      However, people should at least unhooked (and not attached to the kite
                      except for the "true" safety leash) on land and near people/hard objects.

                      Snowboarding was banned at many resorts in the early days because of
                      comments like this from the skiers: "I don't mind snowboarders go out
                      and kill themselves but it bothers me to watch an injured snowboarder
                      hurt skiers".

                      So injure or kill yourself, but once you become unconcious, please
                      don't hurt or kill other people.

                      Hung.

                      --- In kitesurf@yahoogroups.com, "mobilekiteshop.com" <steve@m...> wrote:
                      > its all very well to say that you should be unhooked but the reality
                      of the
                      > situation is that most people wont unhook, I could be out riding and
                      I see a
                      > very dark cloud coming and I would be very aware of a possible large
                      change
                      > in the wind. So if for some reason it is not practical to come in or
                      it is
                      > safer to stay far away from the shore in case of possible lofting I will
                      > ride with the kite as low as possible and when I tack I will turn
                      the kite
                      > at the bottom of the window as much as possible and not let it rise
                      up. At
                      > the same time I know if a huge gust comes in that in a split second
                      I can be
                      > free of the kite with this type of punch out release whereas with
                      all other
                      > forms of release that I know of I would have to go looking for some
                      kind of
                      > grab ball, loop, quick release somewhere, how fast can you find and pull
                      > your quick release? if you get lofted how high does that extra time
                      allow
                      > you to get.
                      >
                      > Pog ma hon
                      > Steve
                      > steve@m... <mailto:steve@m...>
                      > Ph: 087-7993612
                      >
                      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                      http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


                      This group is sponsored by KiteHIGH.com Kitesurfing

                      http://www.KiteHIGH.com
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                    • Jan Coffey
                      A few thoughts: The Naish system is greate becouse you can use it on any kite. The new Naish system is simply a free bar, when the bar is unhooked, and a
                      Message 10 of 20 , Oct 2, 2003
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                        A few thoughts:

                        The Naish system is greate becouse you can use it on any kite.

                        The new Naish system is simply a free bar, when the bar is unhooked,
                        and a regular bar when it is hooked in. That means that going
                        unhooked is not really being unhooked. It's simply trasfering to a
                        free bar. I haven't used it, but one would think that if the intent
                        were an unhooked railie, with the bar at arms leangth and the kite
                        fully powered, with the naish system, you're not going to get this.

                        The new naish system has no way of simply releasing the bar for full
                        depower. (Sorry, but isn't %100 depower mean the kite has NO power?)

                        At some point transfering the load to the front lines stops
                        depowering the kite. On my North and old Naish kites you can get to
                        this point with the bar still attached. I know this becouse I rigged
                        free bar for a while and there is a point were it's depowered as
                        much as it is going to without landing it, or releasing one side of
                        the kite. I stoped riging free bar, becouse this point was well
                        within the normal "throw" I used at that time.

                        The swivil leash looks to me like it's still going to get tangled. I
                        designed a bar with a swiveling leash the line covered in plastic
                        and it still tangled and got in the way. What happens when you go
                        for a spin, then end up letting go of the bar and regrabing the bar
                        from the other side of the leash? You can get that leash wrapped
                        around the bar. Then what? No reride will work if the bar is hung up
                        at the rider. What about the leash getting wrapped around the hook?
                        It looks to me like you could spin the bar and it would spin around
                        the leash then you would have to manulay reach down and untwist the
                        leash by making the swivil go around. What if you get in trouble
                        right at that moment? Everyone who tried swivels knows that they
                        don't always turn on their own.

                        I know I'm on a Cab kick right now, but here me out. If you don't
                        want a "drop the bar" kind of leash system the Recon works greate.
                        See my erlier post. The kite doesn't reride, spin around slam into
                        the shore etc. It folds up and depowers by at least %98 if not more
                        (remember %100 means NO power at all).

                        If you don't want to launch hooked or you like being able to just
                        drop the bar the Recon will do this as well. The system works
                        becouse when the load is fully transfered to the back lines the kite
                        will fold up. If you simply attach a line to both back lines behind
                        the rings, then letting go of the bar will engage the Recon system
                        becouse all of the load will be on the back lines. The kite will
                        softly glide down directly down wind. Not spin and violently drag
                        you for another 100 meters, but disingage, and fully depower.

                        And to top it off, you get a bit of help relaunching to boot.

                        Hay I'm certainly no pro, I pay what everyone else does for my gear.
                        I don't have anything at all to do with any Kite company. That's why
                        I feel free to speak my mind and tell it the way I see it. Still
                        these are just my opinions. Opinions are like butts, everyones got
                        one.
                      • Suntrax
                        ... No, not practical Am finished with this subject unless Hung, you actualy try the UDS with your own 2 hands and THEN comment, I get enough keyboard
                        Message 11 of 20 , Oct 3, 2003
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                          > Can you pull on the button to release the safety leash from the strap
                          > first (to make it a traditional safety leash) before launching the
                          > kite unhooked
                          >and then latter on reconnect it while in the water?

                          No, not practical

                          Am finished with this subject unless Hung, you actualy try the UDS with your
                          own 2 hands and THEN comment, I get enough keyboard theorists in my store
                          every day :-)

                          Out

                          Brian

                          > Hung.
                          >
                          > --- In kitesurf@yahoogroups.com, "Suntrax" <brian@s...> wrote:
                          > > Hung
                          > >
                          > > I don't think I said it was safer than anything, other than being
                          > hooked in.
                          > > Yes you must release the bar and then activate an eye level quick
                          > release.
                          > > Myself and Rob Munroe have previously given a description and
                          > explanation of
                          > > the UDS and it's advantages. I don't think any current system is
                          > foolproof
                          > > or 100% safe but the UDS is a step in the right direction that also
                          > includes
                          > > a functioning spinning leash, itself a safety feature that negates the
                          > > excuse that leashes reduce spinning ability, therefore enjoyment.
                          > > To those who negatively criticise the Naish UDS without having tried
                          > it, I
                          > > would suggest that you test it, but be prepared for a pleasant
                          > surprise!.
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Best regards
                          > >
                          > > Brian
                          > >
                          > > (========o]></
                          > >
                          > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          > >
                          > > Brian Wilson
                          > > Suntrax
                          > > Tel/fax 27 (0)21 5560044
                          > > cell; 0824656696
                          > > www.suntrax.co.za
                          > > info@s...
                          > > Open 7/12/363
                          > > ----- Original Message -----
                          > > From: "hungvuatnetcomdotca" <hungvu2000@r...>
                          > > To: <kitesurf@yahoogroups.com>
                          > > Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2003 6:26 PM
                          > > Subject: [ksurf] Re: how to switch sides without getting lofted?
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > > Brian,
                          > > >
                          > > > How is this system safer than the "free bar" system that lifted Mel
                          > > > 20' up in the air on land a few months ago? Can you simply drop the
                          > > > bar (like in any standard bar) or do you have to drop the bar and pull
                          > > > on some magic QR button?
                          > > >
                          > > > Hung.
                          > > >
                          > > > --- In kitesurf@yahoogroups.com, "Suntrax" <brian@s...> wrote:
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Hey Steffano
                          > > > >
                          > > > > The fact that Naish is just a more sophisticated design and for
                          > normal
                          > > > > flying does not need the same amount of depower as a Wipika :-) is
                          > > > not the
                          > > > > issue here, or the subject, the point is that the Naish UDS
                          > allows safe,
                          > > > > UNHOOKED, light steering while, in this case, flying the kite safely
                          > > > across
                          > > > > the zenith and the ability to easily hook up again, ALL while
                          > > > supporting the
                          > > > > weight and pull of the kite in your harness.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Brian
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > > > == double the normal naish depower is the same as the standard
                          > wipika
                          > > > > > depower so big whoppee ! Here we go again with the 200% depower !
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > Hi David
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > This is where the new Naish UDS system will go a long way in
                          > improving
                          > > > > > safety, it allows you to be unhooked but with double the
                          > normal Naish
                          > > > > > depower yet still have the light steering associated with
                          > being hooked
                          > > > > > in. At the same time the UDS acts as a safety leash with full
                          > spinning
                          > > > > > capability. Not perfect but getting there!
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > Best regards
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > Brian
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > This group is sponsored by KiteHIGH.com Kitesurfing
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > http://www.KiteHIGH.com
                          > > > > > ph: 1 866 646 7835 Toll Free USA or
                          > > > > > ph: 1 808 637 KITE (5483)
                          > > > > > Em: support@k...
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                          > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                          > > > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > This group is sponsored by KiteHIGH.com Kitesurfing
                          > > >
                          > > > http://www.KiteHIGH.com
                          > > > ph: 1 866 646 7835 Toll Free USA or
                          > > > ph: 1 808 637 KITE (5483)
                          > > > Em: support@k...
                          > > >
                          > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                          > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                          > > >
                          >
                          >
                          > This group is sponsored by KiteHIGH.com Kitesurfing
                          >
                          > http://www.KiteHIGH.com
                          > ph: 1 866 646 7835 Toll Free USA or
                          > ph: 1 808 637 KITE (5483)
                          > Em: support@...
                          >
                          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                          >
                        • hungvuatnetcomdotca
                          ... Thanks. If I cannot launch the kite unhooked (truly unhooked not fake unhooked) then please don t invite me to try it as it may injure or kill me. I
                          Message 12 of 20 , Oct 3, 2003
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                            --- In kitesurf@yahoogroups.com, "Suntrax" <brian@s...> wrote:
                            > > Can you pull on the button to release the safety leash from the strap
                            > > first (to make it a traditional safety leash) before launching the
                            > > kite unhooked
                            > >and then latter on reconnect it while in the water?
                            >
                            > No, not practical

                            Thanks. If I cannot launch the kite unhooked (truly unhooked not
                            "fake" unhooked) then please don't invite me to try it as it may
                            injure or kill me.

                            I will give Recon a try as I think I can launch it unhooked with a
                            traditional wrist safety leash and then later on locked into the
                            chicken loop and transfer (tie) the wrist safety leash to the bar
                            while in deep water.

                            Hung.
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