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Re: RES: [ksurf] Fully sheet out kites

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  • hungvuatnetcomdotca
    ... achieve 100% depower unless the front lines can move from the wing tips to a point closer to the center. I experimented with this once with some ... This
    Message 1 of 17 , Sep 16, 2003
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      --- In kitesurf@yahoogroups.com, CC - Steve <kite_head@n...> wrote:
      > allowed it to fully depower. A 2 line or 4 line sled shape cannot
      achieve 100% depower unless the front lines can move from the wing
      tips to a point closer to the center. I experimented with this once
      with some
      > limited success a few years ago. I think it may have potential.

      This can probably be achieved fairly easily with some "integrated"
      bridle system and some connection points closer to the center. If I
      have time, I may do some experiments with my Wipika Classic 3.5 (it
      already has some connection points closer to the center).

      > The biggest problem with the Seasmik design - from my experience was
      that there was too little bar movement to go from no power to full
      power and too much bar pressure when at full power. I had some ideas
      for correcting this but did not want to spend the money to fool with it.

      "Too little bar movement to go from no power to full power" is
      probably common for all foil shape. But if we are being able to do it
      for a sled LEI then it would be the same as now (sheet out to depower
      the kite up to a point - arms fully extended and trim strap fully
      pulled) and then we'll be able to to simply drop the bar to 100%
      depower when in trouble (also flip the kite over on the water and make
      it ready to relaunch).

      "Too much bar pressure when at full power", why can't you simply hook in?

      > I do like the kite on lwheels and snow though. It is great to be
      able to depower totally and on the fly. You are right that a leash is
      unecesarry with this kite Hung. You can sheet out and fully depower
      on front lines
      > only and/or you can stall it and back it to the ground, It is
      absolutely the most fully controllable kite I have ever flown. the
      only other that comes close is the Revolution.

      Sounds like trying to eliminate the leash (very cumbersome to some
      competitors) this way is MUCH BETTER and SAFER than making it a "part
      time" safety leash.

      Hung.
    • Stefano Rosso
      Stefano, Didn t Seasmik made some good size kite (11.5 m2 or so probably the same range as a 15 LEI)? With some simple integrated bridle system, we may be able
      Message 2 of 17 , Sep 16, 2003
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        Stefano,

        Didn't Seasmik made some good size kite (11.5 m2 or so probably the same
        range as a 15 LEI)?

        With some simple integrated bridle system, we may be able to make a
        fully sheet out LEI...

        The other advantage of a fully sheet out kite is that if you can sheet
        out 100% then you don't need a safety leash as your front lines IS the
        safety leash (full time too).

        Hung.

        ==========

        Unless I am mistaken... Seasmik for the larger kites made bridled foils
        (not very depowerable)... The 11.5 was this type..
      • georgeiw@aol.com
        Have you guys tried a flysurfer psycho? I have a 15.5 and it is a very powerful kite. If you have a chance to look at a bridle while flying you will be very
        Message 3 of 17 , Sep 16, 2003
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          Have you guys tried a flysurfer psycho?
          I have a 15.5 and it is a very powerful kite.
          If you have a chance to look at a bridle while flying you will be very
          confused.
          It can depower quite a bit.
          I have only ridden with it 4 or 5 times. last time I went out in 6 to 8 mph
          and a big board and was able to stay up wind.

          It definitely takes some getting used to and it does turn slowly but it
          turns!.
          At full power it is more powerful than a 20 LEI and a full depower I think it
          is close to a 9 or 12.
          I do not have enough experience in heavy wind to be sure. I did have to swim
          up wind to get my board in about 18 and I could do it with the kite fully
          depowered.
          I also have an xxxl that probably flies in less wind because it is lighter
          but not by much and I can not depower it at all.

          Anyway back to the bridle. There are 3 lines. the middle line is attached
          to the brake lines so that when you throw away the bar the kite flips on its
          back and lies face up ready to relaunch.
          When you pull the bar back the A bridle(top) and the B bridle(middle) pivot
          off of the brake line. there are sliding rings and pulleys so it is not easy
          to describe in words.
          At maximum power the A lines and B lines are balanced so that there is power
          in both of them. when you pull on the depower strap(like on a LEI kite).
          You are tightening the middle line which is now making most of the force go
          to the A lines.
          It sounds confusing but it does work. It is a foil kite that depowers quite
          a bit to give a range of an equivalent LEI of 10 or 12 meters to 23 or 25
          meters.

          I do not work for them. I have inflatables and I have other foils. This one
          does depower a lot.
          The way the middle line goes from being a brake line to the B/A line
          regulator is similar to the way the lines work in the Cabrinha recon system where the
          front and rear lines are a continuos loop with stoppers to lock it into the
          powered position.
          George


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • hungvuatnetcomdotca
          ... system where the ... into the ... I am not sure who comes up with the back line/front line as a continous loop idea, Flysurfer or Cabrinha (in their
          Message 4 of 17 , Sep 16, 2003
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            --- In kitesurf@yahoogroups.com, georgeiw@a... wrote:
            > The way the middle line goes from being a brake line to the B/A line
            > regulator is similar to the way the lines work in the Cabrinha recon
            system where the
            > front and rear lines are a continuos loop with stoppers to lock it
            into the
            > powered position.

            I am not sure who comes up with the "back line/front line as a
            continous loop" idea, Flysurfer or Cabrinha (in their RECON system),
            but I can see that this idea can be used for a 100% fully sheet out
            sled LEI kite (which of course eliminates the safety leash and
            automatically flip the kite over on its back ready for relaunch)

            P.S., I do hope that the "back line/front line as a continous loop"
            idea is not patented (I don't think it is as you need some very
            specific application for patenting); otherwise, only one company can
            built 100% fully sheet out sled LEI kite.

            Hung.
          • Emilia Naoumova
            Hi everybody, I am complete profane in this and I need proffesional help. Who can explain me the difference between chicken loop and trip loop. Tnx E ... Do
            Message 5 of 17 , Sep 17, 2003
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              Hi everybody,

              I am complete profane in this and I need proffesional help. Who can explain me the difference between chicken loop and trip loop.

              Tnx

              E





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            • Dreadlord 2
              Trim loop and Chicken loop are the same... but usually chicken loop ain t a fixed loop Chicken loop, or trim loop, is used to control the power of the kite
              Message 6 of 17 , Sep 17, 2003
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                Trim loop and Chicken loop are the same... but usually chicken loop ain't a
                fixed loop

                Chicken loop, or trim loop, is used to control the power of the kite while
                riding

                Greg

                >Hi everybody,
                >
                >I am complete profane in this and I need proffesional help. Who can
                >explain me the difference between chicken loop and trip loop.
                >
                >Tnx
                >
                >E
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >---------------------------------
                >Do you Yahoo!?
                >Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
                >
                >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                >This group is sponsored by KiteHIGH.com Kitesurfing
                >
                >http://www.KiteHIGH.com
                >ph: 1 866 646 7835 Toll Free USA or
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                >Em: support@...
                >
                >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              • Emilia Naoumova
                Many tank s Greg! Peace E Dreadlord 2 wrote: Trim loop and Chicken loop are the same... but usually chicken loop ain t a fixed loop
                Message 7 of 17 , Sep 17, 2003
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                  Many tank's Greg!

                  Peace
                  E

                  Dreadlord 2 <dreadlord2@...> wrote:
                  Trim loop and Chicken loop are the same... but usually chicken loop ain't a
                  fixed loop

                  Chicken loop, or trim loop, is used to control the power of the kite while
                  riding

                  Greg

                  >Hi everybody,
                  >
                  >I am complete profane in this and I need proffesional help. Who can
                  >explain me the difference between chicken loop and trip loop.
                  >
                  >Tnx
                  >
                  >E
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >---------------------------------
                  >Do you Yahoo!?
                  >Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
                  >
                  >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                  >This group is sponsored by KiteHIGH.com Kitesurfing
                  >
                  >http://www.KiteHIGH.com
                  >ph: 1 866 646 7835 Toll Free USA or
                  >ph: 1 808 637 KITE (5483)
                  >Em: support@...
                  >
                  >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/



                  This group is sponsored by KiteHIGH.com Kitesurfing

                  http://www.KiteHIGH.com
                  ph: 1 866 646 7835 Toll Free USA or
                  ph: 1 808 637 KITE (5483)
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                • CC - Steve
                  What I did to Seasmikize my Wipi 8.5 Classic was to sew some attach points near center of leading edge, then run lines from standard front attach points to
                  Message 8 of 17 , Sep 17, 2003
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                    What I did to Seasmikize my Wipi 8.5 Classic was to sew some attach points near center of leading edge, then run lines from standard front attach points to these new attach points with a slider on them. When I
                    sheeted in kite flew normal. when I sheeted out liders would start to move toward new attach points. The problems I had were 1. Even at full sheet in the sliders had a tendency to be a bit forward of where I
                    wanted them. 2. When sheeted out sliders did not go all the way to where I wanted them, so I got more than stock sheet out but not as much as I wanted.

                    It was at this point that I abandoned my experiments.

                    I posted some of this to the group back then.

                    Steve.
                    Carson City, Nevada, USA


                    9/17/2003 6:32:32 AM, "hungvuatnetcomdotca" <hungvu2000@...> wrote:

                    >--- In kitesurf@yahoogroups.com, georgeiw@a... wrote:
                    >> The way the middle line goes from being a brake line to the B/A line
                    >> regulator is similar to the way the lines work in the Cabrinha recon
                    >system where the
                    >> front and rear lines are a continuos loop with stoppers to lock it
                    >into the
                    >> powered position.
                    >
                    >I am not sure who comes up with the "back line/front line as a
                    >continous loop" idea, Flysurfer or Cabrinha (in their RECON system),
                    >but I can see that this idea can be used for a 100% fully sheet out
                    >sled LEI kite (which of course eliminates the safety leash and
                    >automatically flip the kite over on its back ready for relaunch)
                    >
                    >P.S., I do hope that the "back line/front line as a continous loop"
                    >idea is not patented (I don't think it is as you need some very
                    >specific application for patenting); otherwise, only one company can
                    >built 100% fully sheet out sled LEI kite.
                    >
                    >Hung.
                    >
                    >
                    >This group is sponsored by KiteHIGH.com Kitesurfing
                    >
                    >http://www.KiteHIGH.com
                    >ph: 1 866 646 7835 Toll Free USA or
                    >ph: 1 808 637 KITE (5483)
                    >Em: support@...
                    >
                    >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                  • hungvuatnetcomdotca
                    Steve, If you add the front lines and back lines as a continuous loop idea (from Flysurfer Psycho or RECON - I don t know who copy who) to your design then
                    Message 9 of 17 , Sep 17, 2003
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                      Steve,

                      If you add the "front lines and back lines as a continuous loop" idea
                      (from Flysurfer Psycho or RECON - I don't know who copy who) to your
                      design then it may work.

                      As a continuous loop, the back lines will keep the front lines where
                      it supposed to be and when you make the back line slack (sheet out)
                      the front lines will move gradually forward until it completely
                      depower the kite 100%.

                      This idea should work in principle but it may not work for current
                      sled LEI as the center of lift and the connections points may be in
                      the wrong places for its purposes.

                      Hung.

                      --- In kitesurf@yahoogroups.com, CC - Steve <kite_head@n...> wrote:
                      > What I did to Seasmikize my Wipi 8.5 Classic was to sew some attach
                      points near center of leading edge, then run lines from standard front
                      attach points to these new attach points with a slider on them. When I
                      > sheeted in kite flew normal. when I sheeted out liders would start
                      to move toward new attach points. The problems I had were 1. Even at
                      full sheet in the sliders had a tendency to be a bit forward of where I
                      > wanted them. 2. When sheeted out sliders did not go all the way to
                      where I wanted them, so I got more than stock sheet out but not as
                      much as I wanted.
                      >
                      > It was at this point that I abandoned my experiments.
                      >
                      > I posted some of this to the group back then.
                      >
                      > Steve.
                      > Carson City, Nevada, USA
                      >
                      >
                      > 9/17/2003 6:32:32 AM, "hungvuatnetcomdotca" <hungvu2000@r...> wrote:
                      >
                      > >--- In kitesurf@yahoogroups.com, georgeiw@a... wrote:
                      > >> The way the middle line goes from being a brake line to the B/A line
                      > >> regulator is similar to the way the lines work in the Cabrinha recon
                      > >system where the
                      > >> front and rear lines are a continuos loop with stoppers to lock it
                      > >into the
                      > >> powered position.
                      > >
                      > >I am not sure who comes up with the "back line/front line as a
                      > >continous loop" idea, Flysurfer or Cabrinha (in their RECON system),
                      > >but I can see that this idea can be used for a 100% fully sheet out
                      > >sled LEI kite (which of course eliminates the safety leash and
                      > >automatically flip the kite over on its back ready for relaunch)
                      > >
                      > >P.S., I do hope that the "back line/front line as a continous loop"
                      > >idea is not patented (I don't think it is as you need some very
                      > >specific application for patenting); otherwise, only one company can
                      > >built 100% fully sheet out sled LEI kite.
                      > >
                      > >Hung.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >This group is sponsored by KiteHIGH.com Kitesurfing
                      > >
                      > >http://www.KiteHIGH.com
                      > >ph: 1 866 646 7835 Toll Free USA or
                      > >ph: 1 808 637 KITE (5483)
                      > >Em: support@k...
                      > >
                      > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                      http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                    • hink_trent
                      Hey Steve, did your experiments look anything like this? http://www.usakite.com/lift2.htm ... was ... ideas ... with it. ... it ... depower ... make ... hook
                      Message 10 of 17 , Sep 21, 2003
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                        Hey Steve, did your experiments look anything like this?
                        http://www.usakite.com/lift2.htm

                        --- In kitesurf@yahoogroups.com, "hungvuatnetcomdotca"
                        <hungvu2000@r...> wrote:
                        > --- In kitesurf@yahoogroups.com, CC - Steve <kite_head@n...> wrote:
                        > > allowed it to fully depower. A 2 line or 4 line sled shape cannot
                        > achieve 100% depower unless the front lines can move from the wing
                        > tips to a point closer to the center. I experimented with this once
                        > with some
                        > > limited success a few years ago. I think it may have potential.
                        >
                        > This can probably be achieved fairly easily with some "integrated"
                        > bridle system and some connection points closer to the center. If I
                        > have time, I may do some experiments with my Wipika Classic 3.5 (it
                        > already has some connection points closer to the center).
                        >
                        > > The biggest problem with the Seasmik design - from my experience
                        was
                        > that there was too little bar movement to go from no power to full
                        > power and too much bar pressure when at full power. I had some
                        ideas
                        > for correcting this but did not want to spend the money to fool
                        with it.
                        >
                        > "Too little bar movement to go from no power to full power" is
                        > probably common for all foil shape. But if we are being able to do
                        it
                        > for a sled LEI then it would be the same as now (sheet out to
                        depower
                        > the kite up to a point - arms fully extended and trim strap fully
                        > pulled) and then we'll be able to to simply drop the bar to 100%
                        > depower when in trouble (also flip the kite over on the water and
                        make
                        > it ready to relaunch).
                        >
                        > "Too much bar pressure when at full power", why can't you simply
                        hook in?
                        >
                        > > I do like the kite on lwheels and snow though. It is great to be
                        > able to depower totally and on the fly. You are right that a leash
                        is
                        > unecesarry with this kite Hung. You can sheet out and fully depower
                        > on front lines
                        > > only and/or you can stall it and back it to the ground, It is
                        > absolutely the most fully controllable kite I have ever flown. the
                        > only other that comes close is the Revolution.
                        >
                        > Sounds like trying to eliminate the leash (very cumbersome to some
                        > competitors) this way is MUCH BETTER and SAFER than making it
                        a "part
                        > time" safety leash.
                        >
                        > Hung.
                      • CC - Steve
                        Yes and No The front lines were on sliders like this but the sliders were much longer. About 3 feet. They ran from the front attach point to the leading edge
                        Message 11 of 17 , Sep 22, 2003
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                          Yes and No

                          The front lines were on sliders like this but the sliders were much longer. About 3 feet. They ran from the front attach point to the leading edge near the 2nd struts. If the center strut is no 1 then the struts on either
                          side of center are number 2. So in Sheet out position it was almost like holding the leading edge. Near full depower.

                          This idea looks pretty cool though. If they are right - that it lessends drag during turning and sheeting in - then it might be worth doing. I'll have to try it on an old kite.


                          Steve
                          Carson City, Nevada, USA



                          9/21/2003 7:50:50 PM, "hink_trent" <hink_trent@...> wrote:

                          >Hey Steve, did your experiments look anything like this?
                          >http://www.usakite.com/lift2.htm
                          >
                          >--- In kitesurf@yahoogroups.com, "hungvuatnetcomdotca"
                          ><hungvu2000@r...> wrote:
                          >> --- In kitesurf@yahoogroups.com, CC - Steve <kite_head@n...> wrote:
                          >> > allowed it to fully depower. A 2 line or 4 line sled shape cannot
                          >> achieve 100% depower unless the front lines can move from the wing
                          >> tips to a point closer to the center. I experimented with this once
                          >> with some
                          >> > limited success a few years ago. I think it may have potential.
                          >>
                          >> This can probably be achieved fairly easily with some "integrated"
                          >> bridle system and some connection points closer to the center. If I
                          >> have time, I may do some experiments with my Wipika Classic 3.5 (it
                          >> already has some connection points closer to the center).
                          >>
                          >> > The biggest problem with the Seasmik design - from my experience
                          >was
                          >> that there was too little bar movement to go from no power to full
                          >> power and too much bar pressure when at full power. I had some
                          >ideas
                          >> for correcting this but did not want to spend the money to fool
                          >with it.
                          >>
                          >> "Too little bar movement to go from no power to full power" is
                          >> probably common for all foil shape. But if we are being able to do
                          >it
                          >> for a sled LEI then it would be the same as now (sheet out to
                          >depower
                          >> the kite up to a point - arms fully extended and trim strap fully
                          >> pulled) and then we'll be able to to simply drop the bar to 100%
                          >> depower when in trouble (also flip the kite over on the water and
                          >make
                          >> it ready to relaunch).
                          >>
                          >> "Too much bar pressure when at full power", why can't you simply
                          >hook in?
                          >>
                          >> > I do like the kite on lwheels and snow though. It is great to be
                          >> able to depower totally and on the fly. You are right that a leash
                          >is
                          >> unecesarry with this kite Hung. You can sheet out and fully depower
                          >> on front lines
                          >> > only and/or you can stall it and back it to the ground, It is
                          >> absolutely the most fully controllable kite I have ever flown. the
                          >> only other that comes close is the Revolution.
                          >>
                          >> Sounds like trying to eliminate the leash (very cumbersome to some
                          >> competitors) this way is MUCH BETTER and SAFER than making it
                          >a "part
                          >> time" safety leash.
                          >>
                          >> Hung.
                          >
                          >
                          >This group is sponsored by KiteHIGH.com Kitesurfing
                          >
                          >http://www.KiteHIGH.com
                          >ph: 1 866 646 7835 Toll Free USA or
                          >ph: 1 808 637 KITE (5483)
                          >Em: support@...
                          >
                          >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                        • hungvuatnetcomdotca
                          ... Well, last year we discussed about this here and it looks like this year Windwing is coming out with a very similar system allowing 90% to 100% depowerable
                          Message 12 of 17 , Oct 21, 2004
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                            --- In kitesurf@yahoogroups.com, "hungvuatnetcomdotca"
                            <hungvu2000@r...> wrote:
                            > --- In kitesurf@yahoogroups.com, georgeiw@a... wrote:
                            > > The way the middle line goes from being a brake line to the B/A line
                            > > regulator is similar to the way the lines work in the Cabrinha recon
                            > system where the
                            > > front and rear lines are a continuos loop with stoppers to lock it
                            > into the
                            > > powered position.
                            >
                            > I am not sure who comes up with the "back line/front line as a
                            > continous loop" idea, Flysurfer or Cabrinha (in their RECON system),
                            > but I can see that this idea can be used for a 100% fully sheet out
                            > sled LEI kite (which of course eliminates the safety leash and
                            > automatically flip the kite over on its back ready for relaunch)
                            >
                            > P.S., I do hope that the "back line/front line as a continous loop"
                            > idea is not patented (I don't think it is as you need some very
                            > specific application for patenting); otherwise, only one company can
                            > built 100% fully sheet out sled LEI kite.

                            Well, last year we discussed about this here and it looks like this
                            year Windwing is coming out with a very similar system allowing 90% to
                            100% depowerable LEI (see
                            http://www.kiteforum.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=2309240 )

                            See how the "back line/front line as a continuous loop" and how "fully
                            sheet out" the kite is?

                            As usual, it normally discussed on the kitesurf group first and of
                            course everything here is "patent free"...

                            P.S., Note my prediction last year: "I do hope that the "back
                            line/front line as a continous loop" idea is not patented (I don't
                            think it is as you need some very specific application for patenting);
                            otherwise, only one company can built 100% fully sheet out sled LEI
                            kite" ?

                            Hung.
                          • Josué Victor Andrade Júnior
                            Hello, My new email is windjosue@yahoo.com.br ... _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live™: Keep your life in sync.
                            Message 13 of 17 , Jul 1, 2009
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                              Hello,

                              My new email is windjosue@...






                              > To: kitesurf@yahoogroups.com
                              > From: hungvu2000@...
                              > Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 01:26:16 +0000
                              > Subject: Re: RES: [ksurf] Fully sheet out kites - Windwing new system
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > --- In kitesurf@yahoogroups.com, "hungvuatnetcomdotca"
                              > <hungvu2000@r...> wrote:
                              > > --- In kitesurf@yahoogroups.com, georgeiw@a... wrote:
                              > > > The way the middle line goes from being a brake line to the B/A line
                              > > > regulator is similar to the way the lines work in the Cabrinha recon
                              > > system where the
                              > > > front and rear lines are a continuos loop with stoppers to lock it
                              > > into the
                              > > > powered position.
                              > >
                              > > I am not sure who comes up with the "back line/front line as a
                              > > continous loop" idea, Flysurfer or Cabrinha (in their RECON system),
                              > > but I can see that this idea can be used for a 100% fully sheet out
                              > > sled LEI kite (which of course eliminates the safety leash and
                              > > automatically flip the kite over on its back ready for relaunch)
                              > >
                              > > P.S., I do hope that the "back line/front line as a continous loop"
                              > > idea is not patented (I don't think it is as you need some very
                              > > specific application for patenting); otherwise, only one company can
                              > > built 100% fully sheet out sled LEI kite.
                              >
                              > Well, last year we discussed about this here and it looks like this
                              > year Windwing is coming out with a very similar system allowing 90% to
                              > 100% depowerable LEI (see
                              > http://www.kiteforum.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=2309240 )
                              >
                              > See how the "back line/front line as a continuous loop" and how "fully
                              > sheet out" the kite is?
                              >
                              > As usual, it normally discussed on the kitesurf group first and of
                              > course everything here is "patent free"...
                              >
                              > P.S., Note my prediction last year: "I do hope that the "back
                              > line/front line as a continous loop" idea is not patented (I don't
                              > think it is as you need some very specific application for patenting);
                              > otherwise, only one company can built 100% fully sheet out sled LEI
                              > kite" ?
                              >
                              > Hung.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > If you are new to kitesurfing, please visit
                              > http://www.KitesurfingSchool.org/faqs.htm for the answers
                              > to the most frequently asked questions.
                              >
                              > === to unsubscribe, please send an email to kitesurf-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com ===
                              > Yahoo! Groups Links
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >

                              _________________________________________________________________
                              Windows Live�: Keep your life in sync.
                              http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_BR_life_in_synch_062009

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