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Fully sheet out kites

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  • hungvuatnetcomdotca
    I had this talk with a number of expert kite designers in the past (kite designers with more than 15 years experiences, not 1 to 5 years experience kite
    Message 1 of 17 , Sep 15, 2003
      I had this talk with a number of expert kite designers in the past
      (kite designers with more than 15 years experiences, not 1 to 5 years
      experience kite designers) and ask them why don't they give kite
      flyers full control of the kite (i.e., be able to sheet out the kite
      100% like in sailing - for those who DON'T KNOW, this is when we can
      depower the kite %100 - and those who want to depower the kite 300%,
      please talk to Stefano ;-).

      The answers I got back that they don't trust kite flyers and afraid
      that kite flyers would stall the kite and blame the designer for a bad
      design.

      So this trend seems to be persistence until today (the young designers
      probably don't even know why it is designed this way),
      kiteflyers/kitesurfers can only control the kite to a certain point
      because kite designers don't trust our ability to keep the kite in the
      air.

      The kitesurfing/kitesnowboarding/kiteskiing company that can give 100%
      control of the kite (or at least a larger percentage of it) may likely
      create a new trend that may change our sport drastically.

      Hung.
    • Stefano Rosso
      === good point Hung Vu. When I was in Cabo Verde (Cape Verde) I tried the ADVANCE kite which was similar to the SEASMIK which was similar to some other French
      Message 2 of 17 , Sep 16, 2003
        === good point Hung Vu. When I was in Cabo Verde (Cape Verde) I tried
        the ADVANCE kite which was similar to the SEASMIK which was similar to
        some other French company as well.. It was a LEI kite with a half bridle
        that could be sheeted out like a sail.. Basically you could sheet it out
        100%... Those kites never seemed to make it in the market because they
        didn't scale well when you made them big. The biggest was a 6 m kite -
        equivalent to a naish 9.0. Problem was you couldn't make them stiff
        enough if you made them bigger...

        I tried the advance kite - it was the 5.0 and it was pretty windy and
        gusty - ideal conditions for that kite... And it flew ok and could be
        depowered almost fully (I don't think you want total depower or the kite
        will fall).. But ... I didn't really like the style with which it
        flew... If you werent real good at dealing with the depower (fine tuning
        all the time) you tended to loose power very easily... Of course I only
        flew it twice and any kite you need some time to get adjusted to but the
        market didn't respond to these kites either... Maybe we will get back to
        them in the future ?

        ====


        I had this talk with a number of expert kite designers in the past (kite
        designers with more than 15 years experiences, not 1 to 5 years
        experience kite designers) and ask them why don't they give kite flyers
        full control of the kite (i.e., be able to sheet out the kite 100% like
        in sailing - for those who DON'T KNOW, this is when we can depower the
        kite %100 - and those who want to depower the kite 300%, please talk to
        Stefano ;-).

        The answers I got back that they don't trust kite flyers and afraid that
        kite flyers would stall the kite and blame the designer for a bad
        design.

        So this trend seems to be persistence until today (the young designers
        probably don't even know why it is designed this way),
        kiteflyers/kitesurfers can only control the kite to a certain point
        because kite designers don't trust our ability to keep the kite in the
        air.

        The kitesurfing/kitesnowboarding/kiteskiing company that can give 100%
        control of the kite (or at least a larger percentage of it) may likely
        create a new trend that may change our sport drastically.

        Hung.





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      • hungvuatnetcomdotca
        Stefano, Didn t Seasmik made some good size kite (11.5 m2 or so probably the same range as a 15 LEI)? With some simple integrated bridle system, we may be able
        Message 3 of 17 , Sep 16, 2003
          Stefano,

          Didn't Seasmik made some good size kite (11.5 m2 or so probably the
          same range as a 15 LEI)?

          With some simple integrated bridle system, we may be able to make a
          fully sheet out LEI...

          The other advantage of a fully sheet out kite is that if you can sheet
          out 100% then you don't need a safety leash as your front lines IS the
          safety leash (full time too).

          Hung.

          --- In kitesurf@yahoogroups.com, "Stefano Rosso" <stefano.rosso@a...>
          wrote:
          > === good point Hung Vu. When I was in Cabo Verde (Cape Verde) I tried
          > the ADVANCE kite which was similar to the SEASMIK which was similar to
          > some other French company as well.. It was a LEI kite with a half bridle
          > that could be sheeted out like a sail.. Basically you could sheet it out
          > 100%... Those kites never seemed to make it in the market because they
          > didn't scale well when you made them big. The biggest was a 6 m kite -
          > equivalent to a naish 9.0. Problem was you couldn't make them stiff
          > enough if you made them bigger...
          >
          > I tried the advance kite - it was the 5.0 and it was pretty windy and
          > gusty - ideal conditions for that kite... And it flew ok and could be
          > depowered almost fully (I don't think you want total depower or the kite
          > will fall).. But ... I didn't really like the style with which it
          > flew... If you werent real good at dealing with the depower (fine tuning
          > all the time) you tended to loose power very easily... Of course I only
          > flew it twice and any kite you need some time to get adjusted to but the
          > market didn't respond to these kites either... Maybe we will get back to
          > them in the future ?
          >
          > ====
          >
          >
          > I had this talk with a number of expert kite designers in the past (kite
          > designers with more than 15 years experiences, not 1 to 5 years
          > experience kite designers) and ask them why don't they give kite flyers
          > full control of the kite (i.e., be able to sheet out the kite 100% like
          > in sailing - for those who DON'T KNOW, this is when we can depower the
          > kite %100 - and those who want to depower the kite 300%, please talk to
          > Stefano ;-).
          >
          > The answers I got back that they don't trust kite flyers and afraid that
          > kite flyers would stall the kite and blame the designer for a bad
          > design.
          >
          > So this trend seems to be persistence until today (the young designers
          > probably don't even know why it is designed this way),
          > kiteflyers/kitesurfers can only control the kite to a certain point
          > because kite designers don't trust our ability to keep the kite in the
          > air.
          >
          > The kitesurfing/kitesnowboarding/kiteskiing company that can give 100%
          > control of the kite (or at least a larger percentage of it) may likely
          > create a new trend that may change our sport drastically.
          >
          > Hung.
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > This group is sponsored by KiteHIGH.com Kitesurfing
          >
          > http://www.KiteHIGH.com
          > ph: 1 866 646 7835 Toll Free USA or
          > ph: 1 808 637 KITE (5483)
          > Em: support@k...
          >
          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
          > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        • CC - Steve
          Seasmik did make a LEI that fully sheeted out. I have one. But it was not a sled it was basically a LEI single skin foil. It used a bridle to flatten the
          Message 4 of 17 , Sep 16, 2003
            Seasmik did make a LEI that fully sheeted out. I have one. But it was not a sled it was basically a LEI single skin foil. It used a bridle to flatten the kite and prevent it from forming an arc as a sled does. this is what
            allowed it to fully depower. A 2 line or 4 line sled shape cannot achieve 100% depower unless the front lines can move from the wing tips to a point closer to the center. I experimented with this once with some
            limited success a few years ago. I think it may have potential.

            The biggest problem with the Seasmik design - from my experience was that there was too little bar movement to go from no power to full power and too much bar pressure when at full power. I had some ideas for
            correcting this but did not want to spend the money to fool with it. I only bought the Seasmik I have because I got a great deal on a closeout. It was the biggesst they had at the time and not big enough for me. I
            do like the kite on lwheels and snow though. It is great to be able to depower totally and on the fly. You are right that a leash is unecesarry with this kite Hung. You can sheet out and fully depower on front lines
            only and/or you can stall it and back it to the ground, It is absolutely the most fully controllable kite I have ever flown. the only other that comes close is the Revolution.

            Steve
            Carson City, Nevada, USA


            9/16/2003 4:41:25 PM, "hungvuatnetcomdotca" <hungvu2000@...> wrote:

            >Stefano,
            >
            >Didn't Seasmik made some good size kite (11.5 m2 or so probably the
            >same range as a 15 LEI)?
            >
            >With some simple integrated bridle system, we may be able to make a
            >fully sheet out LEI...
            >
            >The other advantage of a fully sheet out kite is that if you can sheet
            >out 100% then you don't need a safety leash as your front lines IS the
            >safety leash (full time too).
            >
            >Hung.
            >
            >--- In kitesurf@yahoogroups.com, "Stefano Rosso" <stefano.rosso@a...>
            >wrote:
            >> === good point Hung Vu. When I was in Cabo Verde (Cape Verde) I tried
            >> the ADVANCE kite which was similar to the SEASMIK which was similar to
            >> some other French company as well.. It was a LEI kite with a half bridle
            >> that could be sheeted out like a sail.. Basically you could sheet it out
            >> 100%... Those kites never seemed to make it in the market because they
            >> didn't scale well when you made them big. The biggest was a 6 m kite -
            >> equivalent to a naish 9.0. Problem was you couldn't make them stiff
            >> enough if you made them bigger...
            >>
            >> I tried the advance kite - it was the 5.0 and it was pretty windy and
            >> gusty - ideal conditions for that kite... And it flew ok and could be
            >> depowered almost fully (I don't think you want total depower or the kite
            >> will fall).. But ... I didn't really like the style with which it
            >> flew... If you werent real good at dealing with the depower (fine tuning
            >> all the time) you tended to loose power very easily... Of course I only
            >> flew it twice and any kite you need some time to get adjusted to but the
            >> market didn't respond to these kites either... Maybe we will get back to
            >> them in the future ?
            >>
            >> ====
            >>
            >>
            >> I had this talk with a number of expert kite designers in the past (kite
            >> designers with more than 15 years experiences, not 1 to 5 years
            >> experience kite designers) and ask them why don't they give kite flyers
            >> full control of the kite (i.e., be able to sheet out the kite 100% like
            >> in sailing - for those who DON'T KNOW, this is when we can depower the
            >> kite %100 - and those who want to depower the kite 300%, please talk to
            >> Stefano ;-).
            >>
            >> The answers I got back that they don't trust kite flyers and afraid that
            >> kite flyers would stall the kite and blame the designer for a bad
            >> design.
            >>
            >> So this trend seems to be persistence until today (the young designers
            >> probably don't even know why it is designed this way),
            >> kiteflyers/kitesurfers can only control the kite to a certain point
            >> because kite designers don't trust our ability to keep the kite in the
            >> air.
            >>
            >> The kitesurfing/kitesnowboarding/kiteskiing company that can give 100%
            >> control of the kite (or at least a larger percentage of it) may likely
            >> create a new trend that may change our sport drastically.
            >>
            >> Hung.
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >> This group is sponsored by KiteHIGH.com Kitesurfing
            >>
            >> http://www.KiteHIGH.com
            >> ph: 1 866 646 7835 Toll Free USA or
            >> ph: 1 808 637 KITE (5483)
            >> Em: support@k...
            >>
            >> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
            >> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            >
            >
            >This group is sponsored by KiteHIGH.com Kitesurfing
            >
            >http://www.KiteHIGH.com
            >ph: 1 866 646 7835 Toll Free USA or
            >ph: 1 808 637 KITE (5483)
            >Em: support@...
            >
            >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            >
            >
            >
            >
          • hungvuatnetcomdotca
            ... achieve 100% depower unless the front lines can move from the wing tips to a point closer to the center. I experimented with this once with some ... This
            Message 5 of 17 , Sep 16, 2003
              --- In kitesurf@yahoogroups.com, CC - Steve <kite_head@n...> wrote:
              > allowed it to fully depower. A 2 line or 4 line sled shape cannot
              achieve 100% depower unless the front lines can move from the wing
              tips to a point closer to the center. I experimented with this once
              with some
              > limited success a few years ago. I think it may have potential.

              This can probably be achieved fairly easily with some "integrated"
              bridle system and some connection points closer to the center. If I
              have time, I may do some experiments with my Wipika Classic 3.5 (it
              already has some connection points closer to the center).

              > The biggest problem with the Seasmik design - from my experience was
              that there was too little bar movement to go from no power to full
              power and too much bar pressure when at full power. I had some ideas
              for correcting this but did not want to spend the money to fool with it.

              "Too little bar movement to go from no power to full power" is
              probably common for all foil shape. But if we are being able to do it
              for a sled LEI then it would be the same as now (sheet out to depower
              the kite up to a point - arms fully extended and trim strap fully
              pulled) and then we'll be able to to simply drop the bar to 100%
              depower when in trouble (also flip the kite over on the water and make
              it ready to relaunch).

              "Too much bar pressure when at full power", why can't you simply hook in?

              > I do like the kite on lwheels and snow though. It is great to be
              able to depower totally and on the fly. You are right that a leash is
              unecesarry with this kite Hung. You can sheet out and fully depower
              on front lines
              > only and/or you can stall it and back it to the ground, It is
              absolutely the most fully controllable kite I have ever flown. the
              only other that comes close is the Revolution.

              Sounds like trying to eliminate the leash (very cumbersome to some
              competitors) this way is MUCH BETTER and SAFER than making it a "part
              time" safety leash.

              Hung.
            • Stefano Rosso
              Stefano, Didn t Seasmik made some good size kite (11.5 m2 or so probably the same range as a 15 LEI)? With some simple integrated bridle system, we may be able
              Message 6 of 17 , Sep 16, 2003
                Stefano,

                Didn't Seasmik made some good size kite (11.5 m2 or so probably the same
                range as a 15 LEI)?

                With some simple integrated bridle system, we may be able to make a
                fully sheet out LEI...

                The other advantage of a fully sheet out kite is that if you can sheet
                out 100% then you don't need a safety leash as your front lines IS the
                safety leash (full time too).

                Hung.

                ==========

                Unless I am mistaken... Seasmik for the larger kites made bridled foils
                (not very depowerable)... The 11.5 was this type..
              • georgeiw@aol.com
                Have you guys tried a flysurfer psycho? I have a 15.5 and it is a very powerful kite. If you have a chance to look at a bridle while flying you will be very
                Message 7 of 17 , Sep 16, 2003
                  Have you guys tried a flysurfer psycho?
                  I have a 15.5 and it is a very powerful kite.
                  If you have a chance to look at a bridle while flying you will be very
                  confused.
                  It can depower quite a bit.
                  I have only ridden with it 4 or 5 times. last time I went out in 6 to 8 mph
                  and a big board and was able to stay up wind.

                  It definitely takes some getting used to and it does turn slowly but it
                  turns!.
                  At full power it is more powerful than a 20 LEI and a full depower I think it
                  is close to a 9 or 12.
                  I do not have enough experience in heavy wind to be sure. I did have to swim
                  up wind to get my board in about 18 and I could do it with the kite fully
                  depowered.
                  I also have an xxxl that probably flies in less wind because it is lighter
                  but not by much and I can not depower it at all.

                  Anyway back to the bridle. There are 3 lines. the middle line is attached
                  to the brake lines so that when you throw away the bar the kite flips on its
                  back and lies face up ready to relaunch.
                  When you pull the bar back the A bridle(top) and the B bridle(middle) pivot
                  off of the brake line. there are sliding rings and pulleys so it is not easy
                  to describe in words.
                  At maximum power the A lines and B lines are balanced so that there is power
                  in both of them. when you pull on the depower strap(like on a LEI kite).
                  You are tightening the middle line which is now making most of the force go
                  to the A lines.
                  It sounds confusing but it does work. It is a foil kite that depowers quite
                  a bit to give a range of an equivalent LEI of 10 or 12 meters to 23 or 25
                  meters.

                  I do not work for them. I have inflatables and I have other foils. This one
                  does depower a lot.
                  The way the middle line goes from being a brake line to the B/A line
                  regulator is similar to the way the lines work in the Cabrinha recon system where the
                  front and rear lines are a continuos loop with stoppers to lock it into the
                  powered position.
                  George


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • hungvuatnetcomdotca
                  ... system where the ... into the ... I am not sure who comes up with the back line/front line as a continous loop idea, Flysurfer or Cabrinha (in their
                  Message 8 of 17 , Sep 16, 2003
                    --- In kitesurf@yahoogroups.com, georgeiw@a... wrote:
                    > The way the middle line goes from being a brake line to the B/A line
                    > regulator is similar to the way the lines work in the Cabrinha recon
                    system where the
                    > front and rear lines are a continuos loop with stoppers to lock it
                    into the
                    > powered position.

                    I am not sure who comes up with the "back line/front line as a
                    continous loop" idea, Flysurfer or Cabrinha (in their RECON system),
                    but I can see that this idea can be used for a 100% fully sheet out
                    sled LEI kite (which of course eliminates the safety leash and
                    automatically flip the kite over on its back ready for relaunch)

                    P.S., I do hope that the "back line/front line as a continous loop"
                    idea is not patented (I don't think it is as you need some very
                    specific application for patenting); otherwise, only one company can
                    built 100% fully sheet out sled LEI kite.

                    Hung.
                  • Emilia Naoumova
                    Hi everybody, I am complete profane in this and I need proffesional help. Who can explain me the difference between chicken loop and trip loop. Tnx E ... Do
                    Message 9 of 17 , Sep 17, 2003
                      Hi everybody,

                      I am complete profane in this and I need proffesional help. Who can explain me the difference between chicken loop and trip loop.

                      Tnx

                      E





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                    • Dreadlord 2
                      Trim loop and Chicken loop are the same... but usually chicken loop ain t a fixed loop Chicken loop, or trim loop, is used to control the power of the kite
                      Message 10 of 17 , Sep 17, 2003
                        Trim loop and Chicken loop are the same... but usually chicken loop ain't a
                        fixed loop

                        Chicken loop, or trim loop, is used to control the power of the kite while
                        riding

                        Greg

                        >Hi everybody,
                        >
                        >I am complete profane in this and I need proffesional help. Who can
                        >explain me the difference between chicken loop and trip loop.
                        >
                        >Tnx
                        >
                        >E
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >---------------------------------
                        >Do you Yahoo!?
                        >Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
                        >
                        >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                        >
                        >This group is sponsored by KiteHIGH.com Kitesurfing
                        >
                        >http://www.KiteHIGH.com
                        >ph: 1 866 646 7835 Toll Free USA or
                        >ph: 1 808 637 KITE (5483)
                        >Em: support@...
                        >
                        >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                      • Emilia Naoumova
                        Many tank s Greg! Peace E Dreadlord 2 wrote: Trim loop and Chicken loop are the same... but usually chicken loop ain t a fixed loop
                        Message 11 of 17 , Sep 17, 2003
                          Many tank's Greg!

                          Peace
                          E

                          Dreadlord 2 <dreadlord2@...> wrote:
                          Trim loop and Chicken loop are the same... but usually chicken loop ain't a
                          fixed loop

                          Chicken loop, or trim loop, is used to control the power of the kite while
                          riding

                          Greg

                          >Hi everybody,
                          >
                          >I am complete profane in this and I need proffesional help. Who can
                          >explain me the difference between chicken loop and trip loop.
                          >
                          >Tnx
                          >
                          >E
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >---------------------------------
                          >Do you Yahoo!?
                          >Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
                          >
                          >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                          >
                          >This group is sponsored by KiteHIGH.com Kitesurfing
                          >
                          >http://www.KiteHIGH.com
                          >ph: 1 866 646 7835 Toll Free USA or
                          >ph: 1 808 637 KITE (5483)
                          >Em: support@...
                          >
                          >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/



                          This group is sponsored by KiteHIGH.com Kitesurfing

                          http://www.KiteHIGH.com
                          ph: 1 866 646 7835 Toll Free USA or
                          ph: 1 808 637 KITE (5483)
                          Em: support@...

                          Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/



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                        • CC - Steve
                          What I did to Seasmikize my Wipi 8.5 Classic was to sew some attach points near center of leading edge, then run lines from standard front attach points to
                          Message 12 of 17 , Sep 17, 2003
                            What I did to Seasmikize my Wipi 8.5 Classic was to sew some attach points near center of leading edge, then run lines from standard front attach points to these new attach points with a slider on them. When I
                            sheeted in kite flew normal. when I sheeted out liders would start to move toward new attach points. The problems I had were 1. Even at full sheet in the sliders had a tendency to be a bit forward of where I
                            wanted them. 2. When sheeted out sliders did not go all the way to where I wanted them, so I got more than stock sheet out but not as much as I wanted.

                            It was at this point that I abandoned my experiments.

                            I posted some of this to the group back then.

                            Steve.
                            Carson City, Nevada, USA


                            9/17/2003 6:32:32 AM, "hungvuatnetcomdotca" <hungvu2000@...> wrote:

                            >--- In kitesurf@yahoogroups.com, georgeiw@a... wrote:
                            >> The way the middle line goes from being a brake line to the B/A line
                            >> regulator is similar to the way the lines work in the Cabrinha recon
                            >system where the
                            >> front and rear lines are a continuos loop with stoppers to lock it
                            >into the
                            >> powered position.
                            >
                            >I am not sure who comes up with the "back line/front line as a
                            >continous loop" idea, Flysurfer or Cabrinha (in their RECON system),
                            >but I can see that this idea can be used for a 100% fully sheet out
                            >sled LEI kite (which of course eliminates the safety leash and
                            >automatically flip the kite over on its back ready for relaunch)
                            >
                            >P.S., I do hope that the "back line/front line as a continous loop"
                            >idea is not patented (I don't think it is as you need some very
                            >specific application for patenting); otherwise, only one company can
                            >built 100% fully sheet out sled LEI kite.
                            >
                            >Hung.
                            >
                            >
                            >This group is sponsored by KiteHIGH.com Kitesurfing
                            >
                            >http://www.KiteHIGH.com
                            >ph: 1 866 646 7835 Toll Free USA or
                            >ph: 1 808 637 KITE (5483)
                            >Em: support@...
                            >
                            >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                          • hungvuatnetcomdotca
                            Steve, If you add the front lines and back lines as a continuous loop idea (from Flysurfer Psycho or RECON - I don t know who copy who) to your design then
                            Message 13 of 17 , Sep 17, 2003
                              Steve,

                              If you add the "front lines and back lines as a continuous loop" idea
                              (from Flysurfer Psycho or RECON - I don't know who copy who) to your
                              design then it may work.

                              As a continuous loop, the back lines will keep the front lines where
                              it supposed to be and when you make the back line slack (sheet out)
                              the front lines will move gradually forward until it completely
                              depower the kite 100%.

                              This idea should work in principle but it may not work for current
                              sled LEI as the center of lift and the connections points may be in
                              the wrong places for its purposes.

                              Hung.

                              --- In kitesurf@yahoogroups.com, CC - Steve <kite_head@n...> wrote:
                              > What I did to Seasmikize my Wipi 8.5 Classic was to sew some attach
                              points near center of leading edge, then run lines from standard front
                              attach points to these new attach points with a slider on them. When I
                              > sheeted in kite flew normal. when I sheeted out liders would start
                              to move toward new attach points. The problems I had were 1. Even at
                              full sheet in the sliders had a tendency to be a bit forward of where I
                              > wanted them. 2. When sheeted out sliders did not go all the way to
                              where I wanted them, so I got more than stock sheet out but not as
                              much as I wanted.
                              >
                              > It was at this point that I abandoned my experiments.
                              >
                              > I posted some of this to the group back then.
                              >
                              > Steve.
                              > Carson City, Nevada, USA
                              >
                              >
                              > 9/17/2003 6:32:32 AM, "hungvuatnetcomdotca" <hungvu2000@r...> wrote:
                              >
                              > >--- In kitesurf@yahoogroups.com, georgeiw@a... wrote:
                              > >> The way the middle line goes from being a brake line to the B/A line
                              > >> regulator is similar to the way the lines work in the Cabrinha recon
                              > >system where the
                              > >> front and rear lines are a continuos loop with stoppers to lock it
                              > >into the
                              > >> powered position.
                              > >
                              > >I am not sure who comes up with the "back line/front line as a
                              > >continous loop" idea, Flysurfer or Cabrinha (in their RECON system),
                              > >but I can see that this idea can be used for a 100% fully sheet out
                              > >sled LEI kite (which of course eliminates the safety leash and
                              > >automatically flip the kite over on its back ready for relaunch)
                              > >
                              > >P.S., I do hope that the "back line/front line as a continous loop"
                              > >idea is not patented (I don't think it is as you need some very
                              > >specific application for patenting); otherwise, only one company can
                              > >built 100% fully sheet out sled LEI kite.
                              > >
                              > >Hung.
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >This group is sponsored by KiteHIGH.com Kitesurfing
                              > >
                              > >http://www.KiteHIGH.com
                              > >ph: 1 866 646 7835 Toll Free USA or
                              > >ph: 1 808 637 KITE (5483)
                              > >Em: support@k...
                              > >
                              > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                              http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                            • hink_trent
                              Hey Steve, did your experiments look anything like this? http://www.usakite.com/lift2.htm ... was ... ideas ... with it. ... it ... depower ... make ... hook
                              Message 14 of 17 , Sep 21, 2003
                                Hey Steve, did your experiments look anything like this?
                                http://www.usakite.com/lift2.htm

                                --- In kitesurf@yahoogroups.com, "hungvuatnetcomdotca"
                                <hungvu2000@r...> wrote:
                                > --- In kitesurf@yahoogroups.com, CC - Steve <kite_head@n...> wrote:
                                > > allowed it to fully depower. A 2 line or 4 line sled shape cannot
                                > achieve 100% depower unless the front lines can move from the wing
                                > tips to a point closer to the center. I experimented with this once
                                > with some
                                > > limited success a few years ago. I think it may have potential.
                                >
                                > This can probably be achieved fairly easily with some "integrated"
                                > bridle system and some connection points closer to the center. If I
                                > have time, I may do some experiments with my Wipika Classic 3.5 (it
                                > already has some connection points closer to the center).
                                >
                                > > The biggest problem with the Seasmik design - from my experience
                                was
                                > that there was too little bar movement to go from no power to full
                                > power and too much bar pressure when at full power. I had some
                                ideas
                                > for correcting this but did not want to spend the money to fool
                                with it.
                                >
                                > "Too little bar movement to go from no power to full power" is
                                > probably common for all foil shape. But if we are being able to do
                                it
                                > for a sled LEI then it would be the same as now (sheet out to
                                depower
                                > the kite up to a point - arms fully extended and trim strap fully
                                > pulled) and then we'll be able to to simply drop the bar to 100%
                                > depower when in trouble (also flip the kite over on the water and
                                make
                                > it ready to relaunch).
                                >
                                > "Too much bar pressure when at full power", why can't you simply
                                hook in?
                                >
                                > > I do like the kite on lwheels and snow though. It is great to be
                                > able to depower totally and on the fly. You are right that a leash
                                is
                                > unecesarry with this kite Hung. You can sheet out and fully depower
                                > on front lines
                                > > only and/or you can stall it and back it to the ground, It is
                                > absolutely the most fully controllable kite I have ever flown. the
                                > only other that comes close is the Revolution.
                                >
                                > Sounds like trying to eliminate the leash (very cumbersome to some
                                > competitors) this way is MUCH BETTER and SAFER than making it
                                a "part
                                > time" safety leash.
                                >
                                > Hung.
                              • CC - Steve
                                Yes and No The front lines were on sliders like this but the sliders were much longer. About 3 feet. They ran from the front attach point to the leading edge
                                Message 15 of 17 , Sep 22, 2003
                                  Yes and No

                                  The front lines were on sliders like this but the sliders were much longer. About 3 feet. They ran from the front attach point to the leading edge near the 2nd struts. If the center strut is no 1 then the struts on either
                                  side of center are number 2. So in Sheet out position it was almost like holding the leading edge. Near full depower.

                                  This idea looks pretty cool though. If they are right - that it lessends drag during turning and sheeting in - then it might be worth doing. I'll have to try it on an old kite.


                                  Steve
                                  Carson City, Nevada, USA



                                  9/21/2003 7:50:50 PM, "hink_trent" <hink_trent@...> wrote:

                                  >Hey Steve, did your experiments look anything like this?
                                  >http://www.usakite.com/lift2.htm
                                  >
                                  >--- In kitesurf@yahoogroups.com, "hungvuatnetcomdotca"
                                  ><hungvu2000@r...> wrote:
                                  >> --- In kitesurf@yahoogroups.com, CC - Steve <kite_head@n...> wrote:
                                  >> > allowed it to fully depower. A 2 line or 4 line sled shape cannot
                                  >> achieve 100% depower unless the front lines can move from the wing
                                  >> tips to a point closer to the center. I experimented with this once
                                  >> with some
                                  >> > limited success a few years ago. I think it may have potential.
                                  >>
                                  >> This can probably be achieved fairly easily with some "integrated"
                                  >> bridle system and some connection points closer to the center. If I
                                  >> have time, I may do some experiments with my Wipika Classic 3.5 (it
                                  >> already has some connection points closer to the center).
                                  >>
                                  >> > The biggest problem with the Seasmik design - from my experience
                                  >was
                                  >> that there was too little bar movement to go from no power to full
                                  >> power and too much bar pressure when at full power. I had some
                                  >ideas
                                  >> for correcting this but did not want to spend the money to fool
                                  >with it.
                                  >>
                                  >> "Too little bar movement to go from no power to full power" is
                                  >> probably common for all foil shape. But if we are being able to do
                                  >it
                                  >> for a sled LEI then it would be the same as now (sheet out to
                                  >depower
                                  >> the kite up to a point - arms fully extended and trim strap fully
                                  >> pulled) and then we'll be able to to simply drop the bar to 100%
                                  >> depower when in trouble (also flip the kite over on the water and
                                  >make
                                  >> it ready to relaunch).
                                  >>
                                  >> "Too much bar pressure when at full power", why can't you simply
                                  >hook in?
                                  >>
                                  >> > I do like the kite on lwheels and snow though. It is great to be
                                  >> able to depower totally and on the fly. You are right that a leash
                                  >is
                                  >> unecesarry with this kite Hung. You can sheet out and fully depower
                                  >> on front lines
                                  >> > only and/or you can stall it and back it to the ground, It is
                                  >> absolutely the most fully controllable kite I have ever flown. the
                                  >> only other that comes close is the Revolution.
                                  >>
                                  >> Sounds like trying to eliminate the leash (very cumbersome to some
                                  >> competitors) this way is MUCH BETTER and SAFER than making it
                                  >a "part
                                  >> time" safety leash.
                                  >>
                                  >> Hung.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >This group is sponsored by KiteHIGH.com Kitesurfing
                                  >
                                  >http://www.KiteHIGH.com
                                  >ph: 1 866 646 7835 Toll Free USA or
                                  >ph: 1 808 637 KITE (5483)
                                  >Em: support@...
                                  >
                                  >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                • hungvuatnetcomdotca
                                  ... Well, last year we discussed about this here and it looks like this year Windwing is coming out with a very similar system allowing 90% to 100% depowerable
                                  Message 16 of 17 , Oct 21, 2004
                                    --- In kitesurf@yahoogroups.com, "hungvuatnetcomdotca"
                                    <hungvu2000@r...> wrote:
                                    > --- In kitesurf@yahoogroups.com, georgeiw@a... wrote:
                                    > > The way the middle line goes from being a brake line to the B/A line
                                    > > regulator is similar to the way the lines work in the Cabrinha recon
                                    > system where the
                                    > > front and rear lines are a continuos loop with stoppers to lock it
                                    > into the
                                    > > powered position.
                                    >
                                    > I am not sure who comes up with the "back line/front line as a
                                    > continous loop" idea, Flysurfer or Cabrinha (in their RECON system),
                                    > but I can see that this idea can be used for a 100% fully sheet out
                                    > sled LEI kite (which of course eliminates the safety leash and
                                    > automatically flip the kite over on its back ready for relaunch)
                                    >
                                    > P.S., I do hope that the "back line/front line as a continous loop"
                                    > idea is not patented (I don't think it is as you need some very
                                    > specific application for patenting); otherwise, only one company can
                                    > built 100% fully sheet out sled LEI kite.

                                    Well, last year we discussed about this here and it looks like this
                                    year Windwing is coming out with a very similar system allowing 90% to
                                    100% depowerable LEI (see
                                    http://www.kiteforum.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=2309240 )

                                    See how the "back line/front line as a continuous loop" and how "fully
                                    sheet out" the kite is?

                                    As usual, it normally discussed on the kitesurf group first and of
                                    course everything here is "patent free"...

                                    P.S., Note my prediction last year: "I do hope that the "back
                                    line/front line as a continous loop" idea is not patented (I don't
                                    think it is as you need some very specific application for patenting);
                                    otherwise, only one company can built 100% fully sheet out sled LEI
                                    kite" ?

                                    Hung.
                                  • Josué Victor Andrade Júnior
                                    Hello, My new email is windjosue@yahoo.com.br ... _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live™: Keep your life in sync.
                                    Message 17 of 17 , Jul 1, 2009
                                      Hello,

                                      My new email is windjosue@...






                                      > To: kitesurf@yahoogroups.com
                                      > From: hungvu2000@...
                                      > Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 01:26:16 +0000
                                      > Subject: Re: RES: [ksurf] Fully sheet out kites - Windwing new system
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > --- In kitesurf@yahoogroups.com, "hungvuatnetcomdotca"
                                      > <hungvu2000@r...> wrote:
                                      > > --- In kitesurf@yahoogroups.com, georgeiw@a... wrote:
                                      > > > The way the middle line goes from being a brake line to the B/A line
                                      > > > regulator is similar to the way the lines work in the Cabrinha recon
                                      > > system where the
                                      > > > front and rear lines are a continuos loop with stoppers to lock it
                                      > > into the
                                      > > > powered position.
                                      > >
                                      > > I am not sure who comes up with the "back line/front line as a
                                      > > continous loop" idea, Flysurfer or Cabrinha (in their RECON system),
                                      > > but I can see that this idea can be used for a 100% fully sheet out
                                      > > sled LEI kite (which of course eliminates the safety leash and
                                      > > automatically flip the kite over on its back ready for relaunch)
                                      > >
                                      > > P.S., I do hope that the "back line/front line as a continous loop"
                                      > > idea is not patented (I don't think it is as you need some very
                                      > > specific application for patenting); otherwise, only one company can
                                      > > built 100% fully sheet out sled LEI kite.
                                      >
                                      > Well, last year we discussed about this here and it looks like this
                                      > year Windwing is coming out with a very similar system allowing 90% to
                                      > 100% depowerable LEI (see
                                      > http://www.kiteforum.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=2309240 )
                                      >
                                      > See how the "back line/front line as a continuous loop" and how "fully
                                      > sheet out" the kite is?
                                      >
                                      > As usual, it normally discussed on the kitesurf group first and of
                                      > course everything here is "patent free"...
                                      >
                                      > P.S., Note my prediction last year: "I do hope that the "back
                                      > line/front line as a continous loop" idea is not patented (I don't
                                      > think it is as you need some very specific application for patenting);
                                      > otherwise, only one company can built 100% fully sheet out sled LEI
                                      > kite" ?
                                      >
                                      > Hung.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > If you are new to kitesurfing, please visit
                                      > http://www.KitesurfingSchool.org/faqs.htm for the answers
                                      > to the most frequently asked questions.
                                      >
                                      > === to unsubscribe, please send an email to kitesurf-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com ===
                                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >

                                      _________________________________________________________________
                                      Windows Live�: Keep your life in sync.
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