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Re: [ksurf] CABRILLO SEMI-BAN (no kiting summer weekends)

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  • kiteboard2000
    ... last ... It would likely only take one kiter, injuring one wader, to get us banned completely. ... on some ... I hadn t heard that. Did it really happen?
    Message 1 of 13 , Jul 1, 2003
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      --- In kitesurf@yahoogroups.com, LA2WNDSRF@a... wrote:

      > damn shame - there was 'only 3 kiters' & 6 windsufers on the water
      last
      > Saturday and only 1 group of 5 ... shore waders...

      It would likely only take one kiter, injuring one wader, to get us
      banned completely.

      > So Sunday, was the 'last straw' of a wrapping with a kite & lines
      on some
      > beach people.

      I hadn't heard that. Did it really happen? (if so, then we have a
      specific person to thank for the ban) Proof of my statement above?
      Proof that the ban is a good pre-emptive move to avoid any serious
      ban-inducing incidents?

      > This means even if the beach is empty we can't use it to launch
      from on the
      > weekends !

      The problem is that while the beach may be empty when you launch,
      there could be one person standing in the exact wrong spot when you
      need to land. That happens to me frequently even after sunset on
      weekdays.

      _____________________________
      Prevent bans: Leash your kite.

      Mel
    • LA2WNDSRF@aol.com
      ... like a finger removal - yeah those things happen all the time. not. a slap on the face by a kite is nothing, their are degrees - who is rep ing us at
      Message 2 of 13 , Jul 2, 2003
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        >would likely only take one kiter, injuring one wader, to get us
        >banned completely.
        like a finger removal - yeah those things happen all the time.
        not. a slap on the face by a kite is nothing, their are degrees
        - who is rep'ing us at Cabrillo? better talk to G Ecker -

        >So Sunday, was the 'last straw' of a wrapping with a kite &lines on some
        >beach people.


        <I hadn't heard that. Did it really happen? (if so, then we have a
        >specific person to thank for the ban) Proof of my statement above?
        >Proof that the ban is a good pre-emptive move to avoid any serious
        >ban-inducing incidents?
        heard something from the best source available - Mr D Gallet.
        he knows more than we do.

        >This means even if the beach is empty we can't use it to launch
        from on the
        >weekends !

        > The problem is that while the beach may be empty when you launch,
        > there could be one person standing in the exact wrong spot when you
        > need to land. That happens to me frequently even after sunset on
        > weekdays.
        >

        Phooie.....just ask the nice people to catch your kite and then they will
        walk away,
        no problem - better yet say it in your best spanish- then they'll go away for
        sure!!
        drop the kite in the water and reel it in.- why be afraid of your own shadow,
        OR
        is the sky really falling?

        best to do all talking with lifeguards face to face - heck, know kiters have
        even
        shown them how to hold a kite in a depowered position- they need some talking
        to.
        Hope your recovery is going fine.
        sign me - another pain-in-the-ass
        Scott


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • kiteboard2000
        ... So far I only know of kiters getting their own fingers removed by kitelines, but I d rather not wait for it to happen to a bystander & get us all banned
        Message 3 of 13 , Jul 4, 2003
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          --- In kitesurf@yahoogroups.com, LA2WNDSRF@a... wrote:

          > >would likely only take one kiter, injuring one wader, to get us
          > >banned completely.
          > like a finger removal - yeah those things happen all the time.
          > not.

          So far I only know of kiters getting their own fingers removed by
          kitelines, but I'd rather not wait for it to happen to a bystander &
          get us all banned completely, possibly even a county-wide ban. Out-
          of-control kites can & do cause bystander injuries. Recently an
          elderly man was lifted & slammed, breaking his ribs (ban pending). A
          while ago a woman's cheek was badly cut (leading to a kite-flying ban
          on that beach). There have been other incidents recently reported on
          the SCKA newsletter. Aren't you on their mailing list?

          > a slap on the face by a kite is nothing, their are degrees

          A slap on the face by a kite could very easily lead to some pretty
          serious injuries to a bystander already struggling to safely climb
          across the big jagged rocks between the parking lot & the sand.

          > - who is rep'ing us at Cabrillo? better talk to G Ecker -

          Unless something's happened that I don't know about, I am the SCKA
          rep for Cabrillo (& you already talked to me) :-) I've discussed
          these matters at length with lifeguard Captain Ken Atkins.

          > >So Sunday, was the 'last straw' of a wrapping with a kite &lines
          on some
          > >beach people.
          > heard something from the best source available - Mr D Gallet.
          > he knows more than we do.

          I spoke with Daniel Gallet & he doesn't know of any kite incident at
          Cabrillo on Sunday. He was told that there may have been an incident
          on Friday. I'll try to get the details from the instigator himself.

          > just ask the nice people to catch your kite and then they will
          > walk away,
          > no problem

          Now I know you're joking. Anybody familiar with Cabrillo conditions
          would never ask for inexperienced assistance. Counting on somebody
          to get out of your way when you ask for help is equally uncertain,
          especially considering that they don't even realize where "in the
          way" is. It's often very hard even for an expert to catch another
          expert's kite here, due to the edge of the window shifting all over
          the place (due to extreme, sudden variations in wind speed &
          direction).

          > - better yet say it in your best spanish- then they'll go away for
          > sure!!

          What about those of us who don't speak any spanish at all?

          > drop the kite in the water and reel it in.- why be afraid of your
          own shadow,
          > OR
          > is the sky really falling?

          The only shadow that scares us (should scare you too) is the WIND
          shadow downwind of the cliffs where we need to launch & land. Yes,
          landing in the water is an option, but apparently some of you think
          that "only" 5 people within a line length doesn't count as "crowded",
          so if the rule was that it's okay to launch if the beach is vacant,
          but you have to land in the water outside the swimmers/surfers if
          it's crowded, there will still be a high likelihood of injuring one
          of those 5 people when you get lifted &/or dragged by one of the
          frequent big gusts because you didn't want to get your kite wet.

          > best to do all talking with lifeguards face to face - heck, know
          kiters have
          > even
          > shown them how to hold a kite in a depowered position- they need
          some talking
          > to.

          We may not have SHOWN them, but we certainly TOLD them (via a very
          carefully worded document around a year ago). If you think they need
          to be shown, but that they're afraid to ask, nobody's stopping you
          from showing them. Just make sure you tell them to grab one TIP &
          hang on HARD before moving to make the lines slack, since that's the
          only method which works for all kites (tube or tubeless). They do
          need to know, but only so they can safely rescue us. That wouldn't
          help increase safety for the general public, even if they were to
          wait on the beach just to help us land, so it has nothing to do with
          the subject line.

          I've spent nearly 950 hours kiteboarding at Cabrillo, & I have always
          avoided summer weekends, because it's often nearly impossible to
          maintain an acceptable degree of public safety even on weekdays,
          which are MUCH less crowded. Public safety would be jeopardized if
          kiteboarding was permitted here summer weekends, & the inevitable
          bystander injury would most likely result in a complete ban, which
          could be county wide, & obviously none of us wants that.
        • LA2WNDSRF@aol.com
          Your message was too long. Please keep it brief. BTW, Tom, since you are Mr Safety- why don t you help other kiters launch kites and catch kites at Cabrillo
          Message 4 of 13 , Jul 6, 2003
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            Your message was too long.
            Please keep it brief.

            BTW, Tom, since you are Mr Safety-
            why don't you help other kiters launch kites and catch kites at
            Cabrillo Beach, especially since Cabrillo is so 'dangerous'?

            You need to live up to your own safety words, buddy.

            Hope your back is repairing nicely too. The beach isn't the
            same with out seeing you on your Guerilla Kite and single fin
            "dagger board", I bet that goes to windward real nice. No wonder
            you go up wind two miles or more. I've never seen another kiter
            in Calif. use a single 6 inch fin in the middle of a directional board.

            How does it jump? I've never seen you jump in the past months.
            You used to jump all the time, what's up ?

            Scott



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • kiteboard2000
            ... Sorry. I like to be thorough For you & others with limited time please see below for a VERY brief synopsis. ... I do. ... I do. ... Yes, the Guerilla
            Message 5 of 13 , Jul 8, 2003
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              --- In kitesurf@yahoogroups.com, LA2WNDSRF@a... wrote:
              > Your message was too long.

              Sorry. I like to be thorough For you & others with limited time
              please see below for a VERY brief synopsis.

              > why don't you help other kiters launch kites and catch kites

              I do.

              > You need to live up to your own safety words, buddy.

              I do.

              > ...your Guerilla Kite and single fin
              > "dagger board", I bet that goes to windward real nice. No wonder
              > you go up wind two miles or more.

              Yes, the Guerilla goes upwind great. The fin makes no difference. I
              get upwind quicker on a LiteWave 136.

              > I've never seen ... a single 6 inch fin in the middle of a
              directional board.

              It replaced 4 stock fins. Easier/cheaper to experiment with
              different sizes, only one tip vortex & endplate interference area,
              and always running at a positive angle of attack (unlike any toe side
              fin on a kiteboard - look at your wake sometime). They used to use 3
              fins on sailboards too, remember?

              > How does it jump?

              It jumps great, like any directional board.

              > I've never seen you jump in the past months.
              > You used to jump all the time, what's up ?

              I haven't even ridden at all in the last month & a half. Prior to
              that I'd only recently switched to the Guerilla, which (like any new
              kite) takes a while to get the jump timing down, especially when the
              winds are unseasonably poor. I do ride far upwind, so you may not
              SEE me jumping. Also, if I'm not powered up the right amount* to
              jump well, I don't usually bother, especially within easy viewing of
              the beach, where you can whip the kite back perfectly & have a lull
              reduce your jump height to an embarrasing few feet.

              *overpowered is not as good as just right.

              Here's the "Reader's Digest" version of my previous post:

              > yeah those things happen all the time.
              > not.

              On the contrary, bystander injuries DO happen.

              > a slap on the face by a kite is nothing

              Not if it knocks a bystander over (especially on the rocks).

              > - who is rep'ing us at Cabrillo?

              Me.

              > Mr D Gallet knows more than we do.

              No, he doesn't.

              > just ask the nice people to catch your kite.

              Ha ha! Good one!

              > - better yet say it in your best spanish

              Sorry. No habla Espanol.

              > drop the kite in the water and reel it in.-

              Good idea, as long as you can do that before it touches a bystander,
              & you don't mind inconveniencing other riders with your downed lines.

              > why be afraid of your own shadow...?

              Only the WIND shadow of the cliffs scares us.

              > ...lifeguards ...no...kiters have
              > even shown them how to hold a kite in a depowered position

              We've TOLD them. You're welcome to show them yourself. Just make
              sure you show them to grab one TIP & hang on HARD before moving to
              make the lines slack, since that's the only method which works for
              all kites.

              I agree with the lifeguards' decision to prevent kiteboarding here on
              weekends


              _____________________________
              Prevent bans: Leash your kite.

              Mel
            • LA2WNDSRF@aol.com
              In a message dated 7/8/2003 1:02:32 PM Pacific Daylight Time, ... I dont - things will change - watch [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              Message 6 of 13 , Jul 8, 2003
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                In a message dated 7/8/2003 1:02:32 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
                kiteboarder@... writes:

                > I agree with the lifeguards' decision to prevent kiteboarding here on
                > weekends

                I dont - things will change - watch


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • LA2WNDSRF@aol.com
                In a message dated 7/8/2003 1:02:32 PM Pacific Daylight Time, ... nope, still don t believe you and i ve asked all the other 6 regular kiters at kabrillo if
                Message 7 of 13 , Jul 8, 2003
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                  In a message dated 7/8/2003 1:02:32 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
                  kiteboarder@... writes:

                  > >why don't you help other kiters launch kites and catch kites
                  >
                  > I do.
                  >
                  > >You need to live up to your own safety words, buddy.
                  >
                  > I do.
                  >
                  >

                  nope, still don't believe you and i've asked all the other '6 regular kiters'
                  at kabrillo if you
                  have and they can't recall ANY.
                  I talked with a kiter at kabrillo today - well, I wont go into it.
                  A Reminder:
                  By catching or helping others launch kites correctly at kabrillo-
                  You could save us from losing our kiting privileges.

                  Or you could save others from breaking things too -
                  BUT You are not the only one that doesn't help, - Phil only helps his buddys.
                  And
                  Ken has helped me, his friend, only 1/2 the time. The lifeguards watching
                  from the Taj Mahal, only see a problem get worse,
                  if a kiter doesn't help a fellow kiter.
                  please change in this direction Tom, when you get better to kite again.


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • John F. Santos
                  Dude, you are passive-agressive, condescending, insolent and self-righteous. Perhaps if you improved your interpersonal skills and stopped pontificating your
                  Message 8 of 13 , Jul 9, 2003
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                    Dude, you are passive-agressive, condescending, insolent and self-righteous.

                    Perhaps if you improved your interpersonal skills and stopped pontificating your fellow kiters would be more inclined to help you.

                    -John Santos


                    LA2WNDSRF@... wrote:
                    In a message dated 7/8/2003 1:02:32 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
                    kiteboarder@... writes:

                    > >why don't you help other kiters launch kites and catch kites
                    >
                    > I do.
                    >
                    > >You need to live up to your own safety words, buddy.
                    >
                    > I do.
                    >
                    >

                    nope, still don't believe you and i've asked all the other '6 regular kiters'
                    at kabrillo if you
                    have and they can't recall ANY.
                    I talked with a kiter at kabrillo today - well, I wont go into it.
                    A Reminder:
                    By catching or helping others launch kites correctly at kabrillo-
                    You could save us from losing our kiting privileges.

                    Or you could save others from breaking things too -
                    BUT You are not the only one that doesn't help, - Phil only helps his buddys.
                    And
                    Ken has helped me, his friend, only 1/2 the time. The lifeguards watching
                    from the Taj Mahal, only see a problem get worse,
                    if a kiter doesn't help a fellow kiter.
                    please change in this direction Tom, when you get better to kite again.


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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                  • LA2WNDSRF@aol.com
                    In a message dated 7/9/2003 7:55:18 AM Pacific Daylight Time, ... dude i do fine thanks good luck your self - even ToDd helps me occassionaly but he might not
                    Message 9 of 13 , Jul 9, 2003
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                      In a message dated 7/9/2003 7:55:18 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
                      bamoffthelip@... writes:

                      > Perhaps if you improved your interpersonal skills and stopped pontificating
                      > your fellow kiters would be more inclined to help you.
                      >
                      > -John Santos
                      >

                      dude
                      i do fine thanks
                      good luck your self -
                      even ToDd helps me occassionaly
                      but he might not help yOu.
                      Shut up & Kite
                      Scott in LA


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • kiteboard2000
                      ... here on ... If they do change it will mean we ll be banned all the time. Kiteboarding summer weekends at Cabrillo is an accident (& subsequent ban) waiting
                      Message 10 of 13 , Jul 9, 2003
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                        --- In kitesurf@yahoogroups.com, LA2WNDSRF@a... wrote:

                        > kiteboarder@p... writes:
                        >
                        > > I agree with the lifeguards' decision to prevent kiteboarding
                        here on
                        > > weekends
                        >
                        > I dont - things will change - watch

                        If they do change it will mean we'll be banned all the time.
                        Kiteboarding summer weekends at Cabrillo is an accident (& subsequent
                        ban) waiting to happen. Who has the most experience kiteboarding at
                        Cabrillo? Me. Do I ever go on summer weekends? No.

                        P.S. You say my post was too long, but you have time to write four of
                        your own!

                        ________________________________________________________
                        Prevent bans: Don't ride at crowded super-gusty beaches!

                        Mel
                      • LA2WNDSRF@aol.com
                        In a message dated 7/9/2003 10:26:32 PM Pacific Daylight Time, ... sky falling ? Nope, not yet. And who has experience with wind sports at Kabrillo longer? Me
                        Message 11 of 13 , Jul 10, 2003
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                          In a message dated 7/9/2003 10:26:32 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
                          kiteboarder@... writes:

                          > If they do change it will mean we'll be banned all the time.
                          > Kiteboarding summer weekends at Cabrillo is an accident (& subsequent
                          > ban) waiting to happen. Who has the most experience kiteboarding at
                          > Cabrillo? Me. Do I ever go on summer weekends? No.

                          sky falling ? Nope, not yet.

                          And who has experience with wind sports at
                          Kabrillo longer? Me - even longer than Greg E. ,
                          Wayne Boyd is a kabrillo waterman longer than me, so what?
                          I've seen hot weekdays more crowded than cool weekends.

                          I've seen, talked with and held
                          meetings with City & County lifeguards, Harbor Police,
                          LAPD, City & County Officials many times in the
                          past on many issues. Things can be worked out.

                          For Example: Jetskiing & Powered watercraft were
                          severely injurying and killed a windsurfer at Kabrillo Beach -
                          remember?

                          Who came up with the idea to establish a non-powered
                          area for windsurfers inside LA Harbor ? (That a certain
                          retailer was against in the beginning.)

                          It was that idea that I presented to Jeff Jones, Jim & Jack -
                          And with their expertise & help, the Harbor Dept adopted it
                          & presented it, along with a 5 mph zone, at a meeting
                          as as solution to controling the powered watercraft.

                          It was implemented temporarily and it soon was made permanent
                          as a workable solution to prevent further death & injury

                          It wasn't perfect, jetskiers still violate it daily.
                          But it is 50-70% effective.

                          Hmmmm, so, jetskiers have crippled & maimed individuals
                          as well as kill them, at kabrillo beach yet they haven't been
                          banned from Kabrillo. Instead, A defined area was set aside
                          for them for egress & ingress, as
                          well as their own beach area.

                          Their is hope for kiters that have done
                          none of the above to anyone,
                          (other than injure themselves.)

                          Things can be worked out.
                          Have faith in the power of good in man,
                          as well as the power of evil
                          and progress can be made.




                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • kiteboard2000
                          ... Your post was too long. Shut up & kite (just not at Cabrillo).
                          Message 12 of 13 , Jul 12, 2003
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                            --- In kitesurf@yahoogroups.com, LA2WNDSRF@a... wrote:
                            > sky falling ? Nope, not yet.
                            >
                            > And who has experience with wind sports...

                            Your post was too long.

                            Shut up & kite (just not at Cabrillo).
                          Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.