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Re: [ksurf] Digest Number 2721

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  • Kite Power (Sydney)
    Subject: Re: Mel s lofting Hey Scott, I agree with you about the dangers of the dead downwind launch (interesting term) of a bridled foil or arc or any kite
    Message 1 of 8 , Jun 2, 2003
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      Subject: Re: Mel's lofting

      Hey Scott,

      I agree with you about the dangers of the dead downwind launch
      (interesting term) of a bridled foil or arc or any kite for that matter.
      People seem to use this method since that's how they learned
      that it had to be done. Most arc users learned the downwind
      launch off a sanded trailing edge and just stuck with it. Same
      with lots of the Blade guys and the bridled foil users that don't fly
      with 4 lines. But in any kind of powered conditions, gusty
      conditions, or other situations where the winds aloft might be
      quite different than ground level winds, I think a downwind
      launch right through the power zone is an invitation to
      trouble...particularly on a kite which doesn't have a controllable
      speed (2-line foil for example).

      If you look at Chris Calthrop's website (some K48 site if you
      search it) you'll find a nice explanation of how to launch a Blade
      without assistance from the edge of the window when flying 2
      lines on a bar. I'd say for a foil user this would be a smart thing to
      learn and practice.

      By the way, Steve McC...I remember a LONG time ago you had a
      bad lofting experience with a Mosquito foil that punished your
      spine pretty badly. :-((( Would you mind telling me if that was the
      old Mossie open celled buggy kite or the closed cell
      waterrelaunchable kite....and was that one of those
      overfly-luff-pop open in the middle of the power zone experiences
      (I bet every foiler in those days experienced this many times) or
      just a simple lofting from a stable kite at zenith that got hit by a
      gust? I know it might seem impertinent, but I've been fooling
      around doing little experiments on my old Mosquito foils lately (I'll
      soon post the results) and I'm curious.

      Thanks,

      John

      G'day John
      It was a 5.5 Mosquito Pro, rigged 4 lines on handles. It was brand new, and
      I had done several downwind launches to get the brakes adjusted just how I
      wanted them. On that last launch, the wind seemed a bit stronger as I got
      dragged forward a few M, as the kite came overhead it picked me up about 6
      inches off the beach, and I drifted towards my board which was downwind near
      the water.
      I beleive it was my complacency with this minor amount of lofting, that lead
      to my near death experience that day.
      Anyway after drifting off the ground, towards my board and the water for a
      few M, I literally was propelled into the sky to approx 30'. I had no
      harness on, and was just hanging onto the handles, so had no leash either!
      In that instant I was lofted, I looked down, and I clearly remember
      thinking, "shite this is high enough to die", so my natural instinct was to
      hang on and look up at the kite to try and fly it down over the water. As I
      looked up, the kite did its usual luff (fell forward) and both me and the
      kite plummeted to earth.
      I was badly winded, but knew straight away that I had broken something in my
      back (done it twice before), and felt something was not quite right in my
      left knee too.

      Windsurfers in the area thought it was funny! A lone begginer eventually
      wandered over to where I was lying flat on my back, trying to get my breath
      back and asked whether I was ok. I was worried about the kite as I let it go
      when I landed, and it was not on the ground down wind of me. Amazingly the
      kite was still flying, by itself over the water off to my left, approx 75M
      out to sea.!! The windsurfer went to try and get the kite, I crawled to my
      kite bag which contained my mobile phone and rang my partner. Then a friend
      turned up, and helped get all my gear back.
      The most stupid thing I did after this was to drive myself home (heavy
      clutched Toyota Landcruiser!), in agony, and then prescribed myself a lot of
      resting in the horizontal plane, as the remedy. I never went to a doctor at
      all, and it took months before I felt strong enough to kitesurf again. All I
      took for it was one course of anti inflams!
      During the whole event I never really felt fear, but while resting at home,
      the vision of looking down and realising I could have died haunted me every
      day, and to a small degree still does. I even considered getting out of
      kiting after this accident.
      Not sure what a doctor could have done but it has been suggested to me by a
      surgeon I saw recently to fix my knee, that he most likely would have been
      able to do something if I saw him straight after the accident, who knows
      about the spinal injury I received?.
      My spinal injurys do give me a bit of trouble now, and I have to be very
      careful getting into and out of the water, I think another bad fall and I
      will be wheelchair bound.

      I'm curious to know what you think you can do with your mossies? The open
      celled versions were OK for buggying, but had similar luffing issues to the
      water models if you tried to use them for land jumping and dragging.

      Cya and
      Goodwinds
      Steve McCormack
      http://www.kitepower.com.au
    • loco4viento
      Hey Steve, Quite a scary story you told. Lucky for you it wasn t way worse. I have had my mossies (closed cell kitesurf versions) sitting around for a while,
      Message 2 of 8 , Jun 3, 2003
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        Hey Steve,

        Quite a scary story you told. Lucky for you it wasn't way worse.

        I have had my mossies (closed cell kitesurf versions) sitting
        around for a while, occasionally taking them for a ride on the
        water and enjoying using handles and backstrap from time to
        time as a change of pace. I've enjoyed them some but they just
        don't have the ease of use as a nicely depowering sled...so
        they've not been used much. The worst feature to me has been
        the instability....the overfly-luff-nosedive-reopen in the middle of
        the window-BANG kind of stuff. I was wondering if the instability
        might in part be due to the closed cell structure.

        I decided to take a chance and try to make my 5.5 more
        blade-like. I took a scissors and opened up the leading edge on
        all but the 5 most lateral cells at each tip. Amazing improvement.
        Super stable. No more luffing. Maneuvers that would have easily
        luffed this kite now fail to luff it. I'm sure at some time it will luff,
        but I can at least say for SURE it's way more stable than ever
        before. Plus it launches easily from downwind or the edge of the
        window, and flies well on 2 lines even with the brake bridles
        removed.

        For a guy like you who has flown countless open celled traction
        kites this may be of no surprise, but for me it was really
        impressive to see the instant huge improvement in performance
        and user-friendliness. I did the same to my 9.4 with the same
        results...although this kite requires the brake bridles to remain
        on the kite to support the TE when flown with 2 lines. My nephew
        has my old waterfoils and we tried this on the 2.4 with great
        success, then on the 3.6 with the same results. Brake bridles
        were also removed from the waterfoils with no cost in terms of
        performance.

        Anyway, my old dust-gathering foils are now open celled
        nonrelaunchable foils and are lots of fun to fly again....not to say
        they are better than anything else but they do fly better as open
        celled kites than closed cell with an improvement in stability that
        is pretty amazing to me. Plus they pack up quicker, launch
        quicker, and won't go flying way downwind if I were to put them
        down in the drink.

        Now I am interested in going for another experiment....you might
        remember a couple of years ago answering my question about
        blade stacking....now I am interested in creating a super
        powerful light wind machine: the 9.4/5.5 open cell mossie 2-line
        stack. I never would have considered this before opening the
        leading edges as the kites were too unstable, but now I think it
        might work. Only problem is I might have some trouble figuring
        out where to poke the stack holes through the 5.5....it looks like
        lots of trial and error and ripstop tape might be needed for this
        bugger. So I don't know when I'll get around to it....probably when
        I have a helper...but I do hope to give it a try one of these days.

        Anyway, that's the basic story on my mossie mods thus far. I was
        sure hesitant to ruin my 5.5 when I first took the scissors to it, but
        I'm really glad I did. Now I have a completely different kind of kite.

        John

        --- In kitesurf@yahoogroups.com, "Kite Power \(Sydney\)"
        <sydney@k...> wrote:

        > I'm curious to know what you think you can do with your
        mossies? The open
        > celled versions were OK for buggying, but had similar luffing
        issues to the
        > water models if you tried to use them for land jumping and
        dragging.
      • Tunico Lage
        ... From: loco4viento ... Hi John. When I was younger and brave I did 1200 parachute jumps (that s one of the reasons of my love
        Message 3 of 8 , Jun 3, 2003
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          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "loco4viento" <loco4viento@...>
          >
          > Now I am interested in going for another experiment....you might
          > remember a couple of years ago answering my question about
          > blade stacking....now I am interested in creating a super
          > powerful light wind machine: the 9.4/5.5 open cell mossie 2-line
          > stack. I never would have considered this before opening the
          > leading edges as the kites were too unstable, but now I think it
          > might work. Only problem is I might have some trouble figuring
          > out where to poke the stack holes through the 5.5....it looks like
          > lots of trial and error and ripstop tape might be needed for this
          > bugger. So I don't know when I'll get around to it....probably when
          > I have a helper...but I do hope to give it a try one of these days.
          >

          Hi John.
          When I was younger and brave I did 1200 parachute jumps (that's one of the
          reasons of my love affair with foils, against all the evidences :-)
          Are you familiar with CRW (canopy relative work) ?
          To me it looks like the easiest way to stack foils... no need to punch
          holes.
          My poor english prevents me from fully explaining it. But if you can find
          any picture of a "2 canopy biplane" it will be evident what I mean.
          All you will need is two pieces of rope about 1 meter each. It may seam like
          a not very solid connection, that both kites would not move togheter, but
          skydivers flying a biplane can do some very wild manouvers with the only
          fixed connection being the feet of the top skydiver enlacing the botton
          canopy lines. The leading edge of the botton kite will be pressing the
          bridles of the top kite from behind, providing some friction.

          Hope you understand what I am trying to say. You could try this method with
          3 minutes of work, before you go the trouble of making a "inverted top
          bridle"

          Tunico
        • loco4viento
          Hey Tunico, Thanks for the thought. I m not too clear on what all this means but I am sure going to try to find out. If you find any references feel free to
          Message 4 of 8 , Jun 3, 2003
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            Hey Tunico,

            Thanks for the thought. I'm not too clear on what all this means
            but I am sure going to try to find out. If you find any references
            feel free to post; I'll certainly appreciate it.

            Hope your vacation continues well.

            John

            --- In kitesurf@yahoogroups.com, "Tunico Lage" <alage@f...>
            wrote:

            > Hi John.
            > When I was younger and brave I did 1200 parachute jumps
            (that's one of the
            > reasons of my love affair with foils, against all the evidences :-)
            > Are you familiar with CRW (canopy relative work) ?
            > To me it looks like the easiest way to stack foils... no need to
            punch
            > holes.
            > My poor english prevents me from fully explaining it. But if you
            can find
            > any picture of a "2 canopy biplane" it will be evident what I
            mean.
            > All you will need is two pieces of rope about 1 meter each. It
            may seam like
            > a not very solid connection, that both kites would not move
            togheter, but
            > skydivers flying a biplane can do some very wild manouvers
            with the only
            > fixed connection being the feet of the top skydiver enlacing the
            botton
            > canopy lines. The leading edge of the botton kite will be
            pressing the
            > bridles of the top kite from behind, providing some friction.
            >
            > Hope you understand what I am trying to say. You could try this
            method with
            > 3 minutes of work, before you go the trouble of making a
            "inverted top
            > bridle"
            >
            > Tunico
          • Tunico Lage
            I found this pic of a biplane on the Net and did some drawings. http://www.flysurfing.com.br/prov/biplano2.jpg Still not very clear. I may try it myself
            Message 5 of 8 , Jun 4, 2003
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              I found this pic of a biplane on the Net and did some drawings.

              http://www.flysurfing.com.br/prov/biplano2.jpg

              Still not very clear. I may try it myself (Mossie 9.4 + 7.5) when I have a
              chance.

              Tunico



              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "loco4viento" <loco4viento@...>
              To: <kitesurf@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2003 2:58 AM
              Subject: Re: [ksurf] Digest Number 2721


              > Hey Tunico,
              >
              > Thanks for the thought. I'm not too clear on what all this means
              > but I am sure going to try to find out. If you find any references
              > feel free to post; I'll certainly appreciate it.
              >
              > Hope your vacation continues well.
              >
              > John
              >
              > --- In kitesurf@yahoogroups.com, "Tunico Lage" <alage@f...>
              > wrote:
              >
              > > Hi John.
              > > When I was younger and brave I did 1200 parachute jumps
              > (that's one of the
              > > reasons of my love affair with foils, against all the evidences :-)
              > > Are you familiar with CRW (canopy relative work) ?
              > > To me it looks like the easiest way to stack foils... no need to
              > punch
              > > holes.
              > > My poor english prevents me from fully explaining it. But if you
              > can find
              > > any picture of a "2 canopy biplane" it will be evident what I
              > mean.
              > > All you will need is two pieces of rope about 1 meter each. It
              > may seam like
              > > a not very solid connection, that both kites would not move
              > togheter, but
              > > skydivers flying a biplane can do some very wild manouvers
              > with the only
              > > fixed connection being the feet of the top skydiver enlacing the
              > botton
              > > canopy lines. The leading edge of the botton kite will be
              > pressing the
              > > bridles of the top kite from behind, providing some friction.
              > >
              > > Hope you understand what I am trying to say. You could try this
              > method with
              > > 3 minutes of work, before you go the trouble of making a
              > "inverted top
              > > bridle"
              > >
              > > Tunico
              >
              >
              > This group is sponsored by KiteHIGH.com Kitesurfing
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              >
            • theflyingtinman
              ... Hi John, I think Tunicio means for you to simply attach the stacking lines for the top kite to the bottom of the bridle of the bottom kite and let the top
              Message 6 of 8 , Jun 4, 2003
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                --- In kitesurf@yahoogroups.com, "loco4viento" <loco4viento@y...> wrote:
                > Hey Tunico,
                >
                > Thanks for the thought. I'm not too clear on what all this means
                > but I am sure going to try to find out. If you find any references
                > feel free to post; I'll certainly appreciate it.
                >
                > Hope your vacation continues well.
                >
                > John

                Hi John,

                I think Tunicio means for you to simply attach the stacking lines
                for the top kite to the bottom of the bridle of the bottom kite and
                let the top kite fly slightly behind the bottom one, not directly
                above. Intuitively I'd imagine the stacking lines would then deform
                the trailing edge of the bottom kite but his point is that that is
                more or less how skydivers make "stacks" and it works for them.
                (If it works at all it may also work better with the smaller
                kite on top)

                Steve T.
              • Tunico Lage
                ... Hi Steve, You got the picture, but the order is reversed. The top kite stays in front of the botton kite. The LE of the botton kite touches the top kite s
                Message 7 of 8 , Jun 4, 2003
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                  >
                  > Hi John,
                  >
                  > I think Tunicio means for you to simply attach the stacking lines
                  > for the top kite to the bottom of the bridle of the bottom kite and
                  > let the top kite fly slightly behind the bottom one, not directly
                  > above. Intuitively I'd imagine the stacking lines would then deform
                  > the trailing edge of the bottom kite but his point is that that is
                  > more or less how skydivers make "stacks" and it works for them.
                  > (If it works at all it may also work better with the smaller
                  > kite on top)
                  >
                  > Steve T.

                  Hi Steve,
                  You got the picture, but the order is reversed.
                  The top kite stays in front of the botton kite. The LE of the botton kite
                  touches the top kite's bridles, about 1m bellow the top kite TE.
                  I was planing to do a test flight with two Blades (4m and 2m) but the wind
                  here is totally zero today.

                  Tunico
                • loco4viento
                  Hi Tunico, Thanks for the tips. I hope you get to check it soon, or I will try it out in Mexico this weekend. I guess the big questions will be how much does
                  Message 8 of 8 , Jun 4, 2003
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                    Hi Tunico,

                    Thanks for the tips. I hope you get to check it soon, or I will try
                    it out in Mexico this weekend. I guess the big questions will be how
                    much does the LE of the bottom kite get deformed and how will this
                    affect flight?

                    I thought 2 line blade stackers usually put a couple of holes in the
                    canopy and run some stack lines right through. I can imagine this
                    could rip up a kite though...but I was initially planning on doing
                    this and reinforcing the holes.

                    I hope this simplified method is useful; at least it will be
                    interesting.

                    John

                    --- In kitesurf@yahoogroups.com, "Tunico Lage" <alage@f...> wrote:
                    > The top kite stays in front of the botton kite. The LE of the
                    botton kite
                    > touches the top kite's bridles, about 1m bellow the top kite TE.
                    > I was planing to do a test flight with two Blades (4m and 2m) but
                    the wind
                    > here is totally zero today.
                    >
                    > Tunico
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