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Re: [ksurf] Mel's lofting

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  • LA2WNDSRF@aol.com
    FYI on launching kites at Killer Kabrillo. While we are waiting for Mel s story: Since I only used foils for initial training on land, I talked with a former
    Message 1 of 11 , Jun 1, 2003
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      FYI on launching kites at Killer Kabrillo.

      While we are waiting for Mel's story:
      Since I only used foils for initial training on land,
      I talked with a former foil kiter,an accomplished kiter,
      that kites with me at Killer Kabrillo,
      he switched a
      long time ago to inflatables .

      He states the typical launching of a foil kite - dead downwind
      and you have to run to the kite as you launch it-
      is a real problem here in our gusty conditions.
      If you have to 'grab' your board
      while doing this to go out and IF
      you miss grabbing your board and
      have to come back to it -
      you will have doubled your problem here.

      With inflatables - we walk out into the surf/water with bar and board.
      we launch the self launch kite side angle to the wind at the edge of the wind

      window.
      Then we carefully fly it over zenith to the water side,
      ALL while being in thigh to waist deep water,
      with our board in hand or attached by leash already.
      If we get lofted while doing this we continue to bring the kite
      over head to water side closer to the edge of the window.
      Thus diminshing the lofting effect.

      We may be pulled by a strong gust - but we are going out to sea
      and we are no longer being lofted. Or we can land in some water to
      break our fall. Then we just grab the board and put it on our feet and go.
      Others at other typical locations probably launch similarly.
      Scott


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • loco4viento
      Hey Scott, I agree with you about the dangers of the dead downwind launch (interesting term) of a bridled foil or arc or any kite for that matter. People seem
      Message 2 of 11 , Jun 1, 2003
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        Hey Scott,

        I agree with you about the dangers of the dead downwind launch
        (interesting term) of a bridled foil or arc or any kite for that matter.
        People seem to use this method since that's how they learned
        that it had to be done. Most arc users learned the downwind
        launch off a sanded trailing edge and just stuck with it. Same
        with lots of the Blade guys and the bridled foil users that don't fly
        with 4 lines. But in any kind of powered conditions, gusty
        conditions, or other situations where the winds aloft might be
        quite different than ground level winds, I think a downwind
        launch right through the power zone is an invitation to
        trouble...particularly on a kite which doesn't have a controllable
        speed (2-line foil for example).

        If you look at Chris Calthrop's website (some K48 site if you
        search it) you'll find a nice explanation of how to launch a Blade
        without assistance from the edge of the window when flying 2
        lines on a bar. I'd say for a foil user this would be a smart thing to
        learn and practice.

        By the way, Steve McC...I remember a LONG time ago you had a
        bad lofting experience with a Mosquito foil that punished your
        spine pretty badly. :-((( Would you mind telling me if that was the
        old Mossie open celled buggy kite or the closed cell
        waterrelaunchable kite....and was that one of those
        overfly-luff-pop open in the middle of the power zone experiences
        (I bet every foiler in those days experienced this many times) or
        just a simple lofting from a stable kite at zenith that got hit by a
        gust? I know it might seem impertinent, but I've been fooling
        around doing little experiments on my old Mosquito foils lately (I'll
        soon post the results) and I'm curious.

        Thanks,

        John

        --- In kitesurf@yahoogroups.com, LA2WNDSRF@a... wrote:

        > He states the typical launching of a foil kite - dead downwind
        > and you have to run to the kite as you launch it-
        > is a real problem here in our gusty conditions.
      • Dènis Riedijk
        ... It has already been posted on e.g. www.kiteforum.com ... According to Mel, he launched his kite on the side of the window (a G-Arc 13) so that was
        Message 3 of 11 , Jun 1, 2003
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          > While we are waiting for Mel's story:

          It has already been posted on e.g. www.kiteforum.com

          <SNIP>

          > He states the typical launching of a foil kite - dead downwind
          > and you have to run to the kite as you launch it-
          > is a real problem here in our gusty conditions.

          According to Mel, he launched his kite on the side of the window (a
          G-Arc 13) so that was not the cause of this particular accident. I am
          btw. always shocked if I see someone launch e.g. a flysurfer. I cannot
          understand why people want to put themselves through that experience ;)

          > If you have to 'grab' your board
          > while doing this to go out and IF
          > you miss grabbing your board and
          > have to come back to it -
          > you will have doubled your problem here.

          He did indeed miss his board while going out, and stated the in the
          future he will put his board more downwind. The fact he had to bring the
          kite to the other side to get back to his board was what caused the
          accident.

          Grtz,
          Dènis
        • fly
          Scott, Your launch method sounds a little dangerous to me. Is it correct that your launching while standing in the water with the kite on the land side rather
          Message 4 of 11 , Jun 1, 2003
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            Scott,
            Your launch method sounds a little dangerous to me.
            Is it correct that your launching while standing in the water with the kite on the land side rather than the water side?
            Isn't that in itself a recipe for disaster in gust conditions?
            Or is there something particular about your launch site which requires a launch with the kite land side rather than water side?
            Matt
            snip>

            With inflatables - we walk out into the surf/water with bar and board.
            we launch the self launch kite side angle to the wind at the edge of the wind

            window.
            Then we carefully fly it over zenith to the water side,
            ALL while being in thigh to waist deep water,
            with our board in hand or attached by leash already.
            If we get lofted while doing this we continue to bring the kite
            over head to water side closer to the edge of the window.
            Thus diminshing the lofting effect.

            snip>

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Meyer, Chris (MOZ)
            Hi David, It all depends on your Kite Spot and the conditions around it. Speak to those that have used the spot for awhile, get to know what the wind is like
            Message 5 of 11 , Jun 1, 2003
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              Hi David,

              It all depends on your Kite Spot and the conditions around it.
              Speak to those that have used the spot for awhile, get to know
              what the wind is like when it's hot & cold.

              E.g. At our spot we have loads of flat area and we never get lofted
              and we too keep our kites at Zenith.

              My point really is to know the conditions and be ready for the un-expected.
              If you move to a new spot and go away for a kite weekend, speak to those who
              kite there and find out what the wind conditions are like.

              My respects to Mel....and I am not trying to contradict her warning as I
              practice it at my spot, as you never know what can happen.

              Try be prepared and kite safe!
              Chris

              -----Original Message-----
              From: David Alger [mailto:DAlger@...]
              Sent: 30 May 2003 16:19
              To: kitesurf@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [ksurf] Mel's lofting


              Goodspeed, Mel!

              At Cabarete, Zenith parking is a way of life. EVERY rider does it.
              EVERY instructor teaches it. Park you kite and eat a sandwich hooked
              in. Side on 25 knots. Palms and hotels be dammed. I don't know what
              to think. - new rider.


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            • Andy Chapman
              You can launch your foil from the water...you can side launch your foil...and yes you can down wind launch your foil if you feel like it. In light winds with
              Message 6 of 11 , Jun 2, 2003
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                You can launch your foil from the water...you can side launch your foil...and yes you can down wind launch your foil if you feel like it.

                In light winds with smaller foils I launch downwind...as soon as the wind gets up - you sand one tip walk 90 deg and do a nice unassisted /assisted side launch...no different from a lei. Its just a case of thinking about it sometimes...and its easy to forget in the excitement of wanting to get out on the water.

                It's just foil users get used to the ease of solo launching that they often don't follow the same practices that lei users are forced to use.

                pip pip

                andy

                -----Original Message-----
                From: LA2WNDSRF@... [mailto:LA2WNDSRF@...]
                Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2003 17:50
                To: kitesurf@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [ksurf] Mel's lofting


                FYI on launching kites at Killer Kabrillo.

                While we are waiting for Mel's story:
                Since I only used foils for initial training on land,
                I talked with a former foil kiter,an accomplished kiter,
                that kites with me at Killer Kabrillo,
                he switched a
                long time ago to inflatables .

                He states the typical launching of a foil kite - dead downwind
                and you have to run to the kite as you launch it-
                is a real problem here in our gusty conditions.
                If you have to 'grab' your board
                while doing this to go out and IF
                you miss grabbing your board and
                have to come back to it -
                you will have doubled your problem here.

                With inflatables - we walk out into the surf/water with bar and board.
                we launch the self launch kite side angle to the wind at the edge of the wind

                window.
                Then we carefully fly it over zenith to the water side,
                ALL while being in thigh to waist deep water,
                with our board in hand or attached by leash already.
                If we get lofted while doing this we continue to bring the kite
                over head to water side closer to the edge of the window.
                Thus diminshing the lofting effect.

                We may be pulled by a strong gust - but we are going out to sea
                and we are no longer being lofted. Or we can land in some water to
                break our fall. Then we just grab the board and put it on our feet and go.
                Others at other typical locations probably launch similarly.
                Scott


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


                This group is sponsored by KiteHIGH.com Kitesurfing

                http://www.KiteHIGH.com
                ph: 1 866 646 7835 Toll Free USA or
                ph: 1 808 637 KITE (5483)
                Em: support@...

                Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              • LA2WNDSRF@aol.com
                In a message dated 6/1/2003 2:56:28 PM Pacific Daylight Time, ... I m not sure i understand your question. But we have a short, small beach that is frequently
                Message 7 of 11 , Jun 2, 2003
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                  In a message dated 6/1/2003 2:56:28 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
                  flightcorro@... writes:

                  > Is it correct that your launching while standing in the water with the kite
                  > on the land side rather than the water side?
                  > Isn't that in itself a recipe for disaster in gust conditions?
                  > Or is there something particular about your launch site which requires a
                  > launch with the kite land side rather than water side?

                  I'm not sure i understand your question.
                  But we have a short, small beach that is frequently crowded with unaware
                  beach walkers.

                  We could launch with the kite just the opposite, while standing on land with
                  the kite closer to the water with us launching it, side angle to the wind
                  window, so that it is low above the water in the direction we want to go, however
                  we then have to run 100ft to the water, risking a depowering of the kite
                  (lull) and dumping it in the surf OR having to bring it over too high to maintain
                  power (and possibly getting lofted over land !).
                  So it is better for us to bring it over head from land while we are in water
                  - remember, these are very gusty conditions to launch.
                  Good luck in imagining this since you can't 'see' what i am talking about.
                  Scott


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • LA2WNDSRF@aol.com
                  In a message dated 6/1/2003 10:26:22 AM Pacific Daylight Time, ... I can only take your word for that, having not talked with Mel (I know him as Tom) since his
                  Message 8 of 11 , Jun 2, 2003
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                    In a message dated 6/1/2003 10:26:22 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
                    denis.riedijk@... writes:

                    > He did indeed miss his board while going out, and stated the in the
                    > future he will put his board more downwind. The fact he had to bring the
                    > kite to the other side to get back to his board was what caused the
                    > accident.
                    >

                    I can only take your word for that, having not talked with Mel (I know him as

                    Tom) since his recovery. He probably had to bring kite to the 'other side' to
                    power
                    it up to walk back - that is dangerous.

                    And that is why we usually launch from water
                    (as explained in earlier post)
                    AGAIN-
                    SO when we have to power up the kite after a lull by bringing it
                    over to the 'other side', say the 11 oclock postion,
                    if we get lofted we drop on to water which can give us
                    more time to bring it back over the water again to the
                    3 oclock position(non lofting position)
                    to go out on starboard.
                    It is hard to explain these things with words, but good luck in understanding
                    it....

                    Fortunately most new kites (X2, Rhino 2,etc) don't "hindenberg", but
                    that can still happen here at Killer Kabrillo.
                    Because a gust here can disappear in a split second,
                    dropping your kite OR you from a jump- like a rock.
                    That is something you have to experience and get a feel for
                    in order to avoid it. Not a fun lesson to take. Fortunately they are usually
                    less than 10ft drops into water.
                    Kinda like the high diver in a Circus Side Show, diving into a bathtub.
                    Splat.
                    Scott


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Dènis Riedijk
                    Please don t take my word, its best if you read what he wrote exactly (especially since you are familiar with the spot) Second hand info is always worse :)
                    Message 9 of 11 , Jun 2, 2003
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                      Please don't take my word, its best if you read what he wrote exactly
                      (especially since you are familiar with the spot) Second hand info is
                      always worse :)

                      http://www.kiteforum.com/index.php?page=http://www.kiteforum.com/phpbb/v
                      iewtopic.php?t=10802&navi=1&button=forum

                      It is the second post.

                      I have understood from posts of Mel (or Tom indeed) from the past that
                      the spot is indeed not an easy launch. I am just feeling more lucky with
                      my beach which is >400 meters wide. Although I have moved now, and still
                      feel quite uncomfortable with my new beach that is +- 100 meters wide.

                      No rocks fortunately :)

                      Grtz,
                      Dènis

                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: LA2WNDSRF@... [mailto:LA2WNDSRF@...]
                      Sent: maandag 2 juni 2003 18:56
                      To: kitesurf@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [ksurf] Mel's lofting

                      In a message dated 6/1/2003 10:26:22 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
                      denis.riedijk@... writes:

                      > He did indeed miss his board while going out, and stated the in the
                      > future he will put his board more downwind. The fact he had to bring
                      the
                      > kite to the other side to get back to his board was what caused the
                      > accident.
                      >

                      I can only take your word for that, having not talked with Mel (I know
                      him as

                      Tom) since his recovery. He probably had to bring kite to the 'other
                      side' to
                      power
                      it up to walk back - that is dangerous.

                      And that is why we usually launch from water
                      (as explained in earlier post)
                      AGAIN-
                      SO when we have to power up the kite after a lull by bringing it
                      over to the 'other side', say the 11 oclock postion,
                      if we get lofted we drop on to water which can give us
                      more time to bring it back over the water again to the
                      3 oclock position(non lofting position)
                      to go out on starboard.
                      It is hard to explain these things with words, but good luck in
                      understanding
                      it....

                      Fortunately most new kites (X2, Rhino 2,etc) don't "hindenberg", but
                      that can still happen here at Killer Kabrillo.
                      Because a gust here can disappear in a split second,
                      dropping your kite OR you from a jump- like a rock.
                      That is something you have to experience and get a feel for
                      in order to avoid it. Not a fun lesson to take. Fortunately they are
                      usually
                      less than 10ft drops into water.
                      Kinda like the high diver in a Circus Side Show, diving into a bathtub.
                      Splat.
                      Scott


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


                      This group is sponsored by KiteHIGH.com Kitesurfing

                      http://www.KiteHIGH.com
                      ph: 1 866 646 7835 Toll Free USA or
                      ph: 1 808 637 KITE (5483)
                      Em: support@...

                      Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                      http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                    • Greg Walsh
                      I launch my foils from downwind and immediately fly them to the side of the window on the seaward side. It is best to launch with less inflation, say just
                      Message 10 of 11 , Jun 2, 2003
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                        I launch my foils from downwind and immediately fly them to the side
                        of the window on the seaward side.

                        It is best to launch with less inflation, say just enough to form a
                        bubble along the LE. A fully inflated kite will have too much power
                        and may require the downwind run or dragging. A partially inflated
                        foil kite generates very little pull but is very steerable and
                        controllable.

                        The kite fully inflates by the time it has reached the side of the
                        window.

                        Actually the time a foil becomes a handful is just after you have
                        landed it. Then you have a fully inflated, fully powered kite sitting
                        downwind waiting for you to release the brake so it can fly again.
                        There are some improved systems appearing on the scene but so far LEI
                        and Arcs definitely have an advantage in this area.

                        Regards

                        Greg
                      • flkiter
                        ... it. ... hooked ... what ... I for one NEVER fly my kite at zenith, especially at places like Cabarete. I have seen many riders that do this, and it almost
                        Message 11 of 11 , Jun 3, 2003
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                          >
                          >
                          > Goodspeed, Mel!
                          >
                          > At Cabarete, Zenith parking is a way of life. EVERY rider does
                          it.
                          > EVERY instructor teaches it. Park you kite and eat a sandwich
                          hooked
                          > in. Side on 25 knots. Palms and hotels be dammed. I don't know
                          what
                          > to think. - new rider.
                          >

                          I for one NEVER fly my kite at zenith, especially at places like
                          Cabarete. I have seen many riders that do this, and it almost always
                          ends in a dangerous situation.
                          On Saturday I was at one of our local spots and the wind was cranking
                          dead on shore and gusting between 10 and 25 (nice huh?) Our local
                          instructor was there flying a foil (I won't mention the brand) and he
                          was continuously flying it straight over head. There was a very crazy
                          uplift going on right at the waters edge, and his kite kept colapsing
                          and then reopening right in the power zone. I suggested that he fly
                          it down near the water to prevent this and he told me that these
                          foils don't fly like that. I had to hold his harness (as his feet
                          were off the ground the whole time) and walk him out in the water so
                          he could put his board on. To make a long story short, his kite ended
                          up in the trees THREE times that day! I helped him the firat two
                          times but the last time he was on his own. Each time this happened
                          there were people straight downwind of him. And remember, this is an
                          instructor! I just don't get it.
                          Kite-on,
                          GK
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