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Re: [ksurf] Endless flight

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  • paapkolar
    As long as I understand, we are talking about increasing apparent wind which is generated by kite movement. I didn t meant the kite should be standing still
    Message 1 of 15 , Apr 29, 2003
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      As long as I understand, we are talking about increasing apparent
      wind which is generated by kite movement. I didn't meant the kite
      should be standing still overhead, this is obviously not enough.
      Nothing to do with thermals either.

      The result of kite movement is more apparent wind and thus more lift
      and because of a drifting anchor you are always behind (upwind)which
      is needed to adjust the right movement and sustain that lift.

      So comparison with albatross in this case is not appropriate, I think
      and evrything seems ok with laws of physics too.

      Albatrosse's abilities are probably depending on the ideal shape of
      the wing and abilities to adjust that shape for different conditions,
      plus other invisible reasons we maybe never reach.

      Pako


      --- In kitesurf@yahoogroups.com, Peter Traykovski <ptraykovski@n...>
      wrote:
      > Here are two others on the subject of endless flight if anyone cares
      >
      > http://www.sailnet.com/collections/articles/index.cfm?
      articleid=doolin0009
      >
      http://invention.psychology.msstate.edu/i/Chanute/library/Prog_Moy_Alb
      atross.html
      >
      > kite_head@n... wrote:
      >
      > >Cool article.
      > >
      > >Thanks Steve
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >4/29/2003 7:58:59 PM, "theflyingtinman" <theflyingtinman@y...>
      wrote:
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >>--- In kitesurf@yahoogroups.com, Peter Traykovski
      <ptraykovski@n...>
      > >>wrote:
      > >>
      > >>
      > >>>Hey Steve,
      > >>>
      > >>>how do albatrosses fly miles and miles without ever hardly
      > >>>flapping their wings an never going more than 50' above sea
      > >>>level???....surely they aren't getting thermal lift.
      > >>>...maybe they figured some way of flying in synch with
      > >>>turblence or something...
      > >>>
      > >>>
      > >>Actually that not far of the mark. Albatrosses (and other
      > >>soaring sea birds) fly for miles (on very windy days) without
      > >>flapping by a process known as "dynamic soaring"
      > >>http://tinyurl.com/albm
      > >>Unfortunately the science that explains it confirms that
      > >>albatrosses are about the largest living things that can
      > >>ever hope to harness the power of this incredible 'endless
      > >>flight'
      > >>
      > >>Steve T.
      > >>
      > >>
      > >>This group is sponsored by KiteHIGH.com
      > >>For Kitesurfers by Kitesurfers
      > >>http://www.KiteHigh.com
      > >>1 866 646 7835 Toll Free USA
      > >>808 637 KITE 5483
      > >>Email:support@k...
      > >>
      > >>
      > >>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
      http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
      > >>
      > >>
      > >>
      > >>
      > >>
      > >>
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >This group is sponsored by KiteHIGH.com
      > >For Kitesurfers by Kitesurfers
      > >http://www.KiteHigh.com
      > >1 866 646 7835 Toll Free USA
      > >808 637 KITE 5483
      > >Email:support@k...
      > >
      > >
      > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
      http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Kite Power (Sydney)
      Hi Pako I am not sure about endless flight, I don t think we could call it kiting anymore, if we could do that? I think we would then be paraboarding or
      Message 2 of 15 , Apr 29, 2003
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        Hi Pako
        I am not sure about endless flight, I don't think we could call it kiting
        anymore, if we could do that? I think we would then be paraboarding or
        hangboarding?

        I dream about extended jumping all the time, trying to think of ways to get
        extra hangtime, by utilising kite flying skills, and the inherent
        characteristics of the latest kites.
        I have seen riders get 10+ seconds of hangtime, and have seen video of even
        longer flights like the crazy dudes from Ozone on the snow, the footage of a
        PL C-Quad doing a 20+ second ridge soar on sand dunes, etc.
        In all of these the rider flies the kite very actively, whilst in the air
        and hanging right under the kite. The rider swings the kite left and right
        high in the wind window, and my guess is this is how riders will eventually
        be able to do extended jumps, touch down, gain water speed, edge hard and
        take off for another one.

        WARNING - never tether yourself to a kite and the ground/water in any way
        whatsoever, many people have been seriously hurt doing this!

        Cya and
        Goodwinds
        Steve McCormack
        http://www.kitepower.com.au


        > Message: 8
        > Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 08:24:58 -0000
        > From: "paapkolar" <paap@...>
        > Subject: Re: Endless flight
        >
        > Maybe anchoring is not the right term, it confuses. This is more like
        > drifting. The small device is just holding you back (upwind) and
        > helping in lift a little bit, exactly as much as it takes to stay in
        > the air and enjoy. You drift downwind of course, so at some point you
        > should come down and go upwind again. I see the whole idea as a
        > platform until we can do the same without any supporting devices. I
        > hope it happens soon.
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > --- In kitesurf@yahoogroups.com, Marleau Belanger <marzz0@s...> wrote:
        > > Seems to me than the anchor concept is contrary to the whole
        > concept of
        > > being airborne? If you're going to take the time to bother anchoring
        > > yourself while lifting off you may as well just stay on the beach.
        > If
        > > you care so much about max hang-time, maybe kitesurfing if too
        > limiting
        > > for ya.
        > >
        > >
        >
        >
        > >
        > > Please remember, this is Pako's flight!
        > >
        > > Based partly on my experiences with kitesurfing, parasailing,
        > > towables, liferafts, hydrodynamics and different watersports.
        > > Soon we all gonna need some paragliding basics, I hope.
        > >
        > > Lift is not a problem for kite these days if you move it around,
        > > right.
        > > The most critical in achieving an endless jump is pendulum effect
        > and
        > > it's consequencies, but this can be avoided if we could anchor
        > > (break) a little bit our hanging mass upwind into the water.
        > >
        > > Now, tie a rope (dyneema) with small floating anchor (or similar
        > > breaking device) to harness handle in the back? Imagine releasing
        > > this into the water right before or during the jump. Anchor will do
        > > the trick, avoiding pendulum and keeping enough angle. Of course
        > > there is a need for active movement with kite to gain enough lift.
        > >
        > > A little testing and we all can stay there endlessly - in full
        > > control.
        > >
        > > You all have seen kite-towing, I guess, which is similar but more
        > > agressive and less controllable.
        > > To understand better the principle, imagine (don't try), if you tie
        > > yourself to solid object on the ground by back of your harness,
        > let's
        > > say with 10 ft rope for a start, and fly your kite for a lift. Soon
        > > it will be possible to remain in the air after some practice if
        > > conditions are right.
        > >
        > > Now into the water again.
        > > With the lenght of a rope you can even set the limit to the height
        > of
        > > a flight because as soon as the anchor comes out of the water,
        > > situation will reset to normal and you can finish your landing as
        > > usual (or go up again after the anchor is in the water). System is
        > a
        > > leash itself but can be leashed from the other end also
        > additionally
        > > for unexpected situations.
        > >
        > > The only problem seems to be, how to carry such a device, also how
        > > and when exactly to release it, but this sholud not be a problem
        > > inside of all these ropes and leashes we are used to.
        > >
        > > Another problem is to catch all this stuff after landing to go
        > again.
        > > If we use some kind of reel system, we can probably set the height
        > > limit straight on flight. If we use spring reel system with vario-
        > > momentum, it can be set to almost full automatic reel out - reel in
        > > movement. Anyway, some experimenting will solve this too.
        > >
        > > Anchor should be similar to certain type of liferaft conical
        > anchors,
        > > but a lot smaller, with small weight inside to submerge fast and
        > not
        > > too soft (plastic net) to react immediately.
        > >
        > > Any opinions?
        > >
        > >
        > > Let's fly!
        > >
        > > Pako
        > > paap@p...
      • theflyingtinman
        ... Pako, as I said your kite tethered to a drifting anchor idea would probably work if set up right (and in enough wind you wouldn t even need to work the
        Message 3 of 15 , Apr 29, 2003
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          --- In kitesurf@yahoogroups.com, "paapkolar" <paap@p...> wrote:
          > As long as I understand, we are talking about increasing apparent
          > wind which is generated by kite movement. I didn't meant the kite
          > should be standing still overhead, this is obviously not enough.
          > Nothing to do with thermals either.
          >
          > The result of kite movement is more apparent wind and thus more lift
          > and because of a drifting anchor you are always behind (upwind)which
          > is needed to adjust the right movement and sustain that lift.
          >
          > So comparison with albatross in this case is not appropriate, I think
          > and evrything seems ok with laws of physics too.


          Pako, as I said your kite tethered to a drifting anchor idea would
          probably work if set up right (and in enough wind you wouldn't even
          need to work the kite - it probably wouldn't be very safe but it
          could get you off the water - just like kite towing ;-)
          But to get endless flight without the 'thrust' of the anchor you would
          have to work the kite harder than is physically possible for a human.
          An extemely strong, fit human can produce about one third horsepower
          sustained for over a period of time on a pedal powered device. For
          one third horse power to get a human (plus gear ) off the ground
          (or water) it would take a very efficient lifting surface with a span
          of nearly 100ft. This was done in the 70's First in the Gossamer Condor
          (which was successfully flown by human power (olympic cyclist) alone
          around a one mile course - and later in the Gossamer Albatross by
          the same athlete across the Channel from England to France.
          http://www.sfoarts.org/exhibits/243/aircraft/12.html
          A lifting surface big enough to convert one third horse power into
          sustained lift of over 70kg would be totally unmanagable as a kite
          (not to mention a kite requires that one-third horsepower to be
          generated and sustained with with your arms (working the kite) and
          that's just plain impossible for any human being.

          But - hey - don't let the laws of physics stop you from trying.
          You may not fly "endlessly" without a drift anchor but you'll
          have some fun and get a great workout.


          Steve T.
        • paapkolar
          Absolutely right, active flying, to sustain appropriate lift In fact this is extended flight and extra hangtime - exactly what every kiteboarder is dreaming
          Message 4 of 15 , Apr 30, 2003
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            Absolutely right, active flying, to sustain appropriate lift

            In fact this is extended flight and extra hangtime - exactly what
            every kiteboarder is dreaming of. Only with small device helping to
            control the action. From there everybody can decide easily himself,
            how long he would like to extend hangtime.

            If we need to rename kiteboarding, let's better call it flysurfing or
            flyboarding.


            --- In kitesurf@yahoogroups.com, "Kite Power \(Sydney\)"
            <sydney@k...> wrote:
            > Hi Pako
            > I am not sure about endless flight, I don't think we could call it
            kiting
            > anymore, if we could do that? I think we would then be paraboarding
            or
            > hangboarding?
            >
            > I dream about extended jumping all the time, trying to think of
            ways to get
            > extra hangtime, by utilising kite flying skills, and the inherent
            > characteristics of the latest kites.
            > I have seen riders get 10+ seconds of hangtime, and have seen video
            of even
            > longer flights like the crazy dudes from Ozone on the snow, the
            footage of a
            > PL C-Quad doing a 20+ second ridge soar on sand dunes, etc.
            > In all of these the rider flies the kite very actively, whilst in
            the air
            > and hanging right under the kite. The rider swings the kite left
            and right
            > high in the wind window, and my guess is this is how riders will
            eventually
            > be able to do extended jumps, touch down, gain water speed, edge
            hard and
            > take off for another one.
            >
            > WARNING - never tether yourself to a kite and the ground/water in
            any way
            > whatsoever, many people have been seriously hurt doing this!
            >
            > Cya and
            > Goodwinds
            > Steve McCormack
            > http://www.kitepower.com.au
            >
            >
            > > Message: 8
            > > Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 08:24:58 -0000
            > > From: "paapkolar" <paap@p...>
            > > Subject: Re: Endless flight
            > >
            > > Maybe anchoring is not the right term, it confuses. This is more
            like
            > > drifting. The small device is just holding you back (upwind) and
            > > helping in lift a little bit, exactly as much as it takes to stay
            in
            > > the air and enjoy. You drift downwind of course, so at some point
            you
            > > should come down and go upwind again. I see the whole idea as a
            > > platform until we can do the same without any supporting devices.
            I
            > > hope it happens soon.
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > --- In kitesurf@yahoogroups.com, Marleau Belanger <marzz0@s...>
            wrote:
            > > > Seems to me than the anchor concept is contrary to the whole
            > > concept of
            > > > being airborne? If you're going to take the time to bother
            anchoring
            > > > yourself while lifting off you may as well just stay on the
            beach.
            > > If
            > > > you care so much about max hang-time, maybe kitesurfing if too
            > > limiting
            > > > for ya.
            > > >
            > > >
            > >
            > >
            > > >
            > > > Please remember, this is Pako's flight!
            > > >
            > > > Based partly on my experiences with kitesurfing, parasailing,
            > > > towables, liferafts, hydrodynamics and different watersports.
            > > > Soon we all gonna need some paragliding basics, I hope.
            > > >
            > > > Lift is not a problem for kite these days if you move it around,
            > > > right.
            > > > The most critical in achieving an endless jump is pendulum
            effect
            > > and
            > > > it's consequencies, but this can be avoided if we could anchor
            > > > (break) a little bit our hanging mass upwind into the water.
            > > >
            > > > Now, tie a rope (dyneema) with small floating anchor (or similar
            > > > breaking device) to harness handle in the back? Imagine
            releasing
            > > > this into the water right before or during the jump. Anchor
            will do
            > > > the trick, avoiding pendulum and keeping enough angle. Of course
            > > > there is a need for active movement with kite to gain enough
            lift.
            > > >
            > > > A little testing and we all can stay there endlessly - in full
            > > > control.
            > > >
            > > > You all have seen kite-towing, I guess, which is similar but
            more
            > > > agressive and less controllable.
            > > > To understand better the principle, imagine (don't try), if you
            tie
            > > > yourself to solid object on the ground by back of your harness,
            > > let's
            > > > say with 10 ft rope for a start, and fly your kite for a lift.
            Soon
            > > > it will be possible to remain in the air after some practice if
            > > > conditions are right.
            > > >
            > > > Now into the water again.
            > > > With the lenght of a rope you can even set the limit to the
            height
            > > of
            > > > a flight because as soon as the anchor comes out of the water,
            > > > situation will reset to normal and you can finish your landing
            as
            > > > usual (or go up again after the anchor is in the water). System
            is
            > > a
            > > > leash itself but can be leashed from the other end also
            > > additionally
            > > > for unexpected situations.
            > > >
            > > > The only problem seems to be, how to carry such a device, also
            how
            > > > and when exactly to release it, but this sholud not be a problem
            > > > inside of all these ropes and leashes we are used to.
            > > >
            > > > Another problem is to catch all this stuff after landing to go
            > > again.
            > > > If we use some kind of reel system, we can probably set the
            height
            > > > limit straight on flight. If we use spring reel system with
            vario-
            > > > momentum, it can be set to almost full automatic reel out -
            reel in
            > > > movement. Anyway, some experimenting will solve this too.
            > > >
            > > > Anchor should be similar to certain type of liferaft conical
            > > anchors,
            > > > but a lot smaller, with small weight inside to submerge fast and
            > > not
            > > > too soft (plastic net) to react immediately.
            > > >
            > > > Any opinions?
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > Let's fly!
            > > >
            > > > Pako
            > > > paap@p...
          • paapkolar
            I guess if I want to stay there endlessly, I use wind energy, my own energy to move the kite to control the lift and I will sacrifice wind height - drifting
            Message 5 of 15 , Apr 30, 2003
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              I guess if I want to stay there endlessly, I use wind energy, my own
              energy to move the kite to control the lift and I will sacrifice wind
              height - drifting downwind.

              This is not free flying wing but tethered, which makes big difference.

              Tethering is not needed here only for better apparent wind and lift
              but also to keep the pilot's weight always upwind and to eliminate
              pendulum effect.

              Without a drifting anchor there is completely different situation -
              this is the next step.



              --- In kitesurf@yahoogroups.com, "theflyingtinman"
              <theflyingtinman@y...> wrote:
              > --- In kitesurf@yahoogroups.com, "paapkolar" <paap@p...> wrote:
              > > As long as I understand, we are talking about increasing apparent
              > > wind which is generated by kite movement. I didn't meant the kite
              > > should be standing still overhead, this is obviously not enough.
              > > Nothing to do with thermals either.
              > >
              > > The result of kite movement is more apparent wind and thus more
              lift
              > > and because of a drifting anchor you are always behind (upwind)
              which
              > > is needed to adjust the right movement and sustain that lift.
              > >
              > > So comparison with albatross in this case is not appropriate, I
              think
              > > and evrything seems ok with laws of physics too.
              >
              >
              > Pako, as I said your kite tethered to a drifting anchor idea would
              > probably work if set up right (and in enough wind you wouldn't even
              > need to work the kite - it probably wouldn't be very safe but it
              > could get you off the water - just like kite towing ;-)
              > But to get endless flight without the 'thrust' of the anchor you
              would
              > have to work the kite harder than is physically possible for a
              human.
              > An extemely strong, fit human can produce about one third
              horsepower
              > sustained for over a period of time on a pedal powered device. For
              > one third horse power to get a human (plus gear ) off the ground
              > (or water) it would take a very efficient lifting surface with a
              span
              > of nearly 100ft. This was done in the 70's First in the Gossamer
              Condor
              > (which was successfully flown by human power (olympic cyclist)
              alone
              > around a one mile course - and later in the Gossamer Albatross by
              > the same athlete across the Channel from England to France.
              > http://www.sfoarts.org/exhibits/243/aircraft/12.html
              > A lifting surface big enough to convert one third horse power into
              > sustained lift of over 70kg would be totally unmanagable as a kite
              > (not to mention a kite requires that one-third horsepower to be
              > generated and sustained with with your arms (working the kite) and
              > that's just plain impossible for any human being.
              >
              > But - hey - don't let the laws of physics stop you from trying.
              > You may not fly "endlessly" without a drift anchor but you'll
              > have some fun and get a great workout.
              >
              >
              > Steve T.
            • Geoff Nell
              ... My understanding (from many hours observing from the deck of a sailboat) is that the seabirds soar along the face of the waves using the updraft supplied
              Message 6 of 15 , Apr 30, 2003
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                >> how do albatrosses fly miles and miles without ever hardly
                >> flapping their wings an never going more than 50' above sea
                >> level???....surely they aren't getting thermal lift.
                >> ...maybe they figured some way of flying in synch with
                >> turblence or something...

                > Actually that not far of the mark. Albatrosses (and other
                > soaring sea birds) fly for miles (on very windy days) without
                > flapping by a process known as "dynamic soaring"
                > http://tinyurl.com/albm
                > Unfortunately the science that explains it confirms that
                > albatrosses are about the largest living things that can
                > ever hope to harness the power of this incredible 'endless
                > flight'

                > Steve T.

                My understanding (from many hours observing from the deck of a sailboat) is
                that the seabirds soar along the face of the waves using the updraft
                supplied by the forward speed of the wave combined with the wind. Gawd,
                that sounds technical for such a simple observation... Anyhow, once a wave
                is not going the way they want to go, they break away and pick up the next
                one, and the next, and the next, and when they need height, they use the
                speed and climb, look down, see the fish and BANG!! Lunch.

                It is brilliant to watch how they fly at speed with one wing inches from the
                face of the wave (and it stays exactly inches away) until they break away
                and either get height or pick up the next swell... Gotta get out there
                again...

                So, for kiteboarding, we need the face of the wave to be about 30m high??
                Back to my corner.... running, ducking and hiding...
                Geoff
              • theflyingtinman
                ... Seabirds can do that of course; that s just simple ridge soaring with the wave as the ridge and the wave movement substituting for wind (which is usually
                Message 7 of 15 , Apr 30, 2003
                • 0 Attachment
                  --- In kitesurf@yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Nell" <geoff.nell@a...> wrote:
                  > >> how do albatrosses fly miles and miles without ever hardly
                  > >> flapping their wings an never going more than 50' above sea
                  > >> level???....surely they aren't getting thermal lift.
                  > >> ...maybe they figured some way of flying in synch with
                  > >> turblence or something...
                  >
                  > > Actually that not far of the mark. Albatrosses (and other
                  > > soaring sea birds) fly for miles (on very windy days) without
                  > > flapping by a process known as "dynamic soaring"
                  > > http://tinyurl.com/albm
                  > > Unfortunately the science that explains it confirms that
                  > > albatrosses are about the largest living things that can
                  > > ever hope to harness the power of this incredible 'endless
                  > > flight'
                  >
                  > > Steve T.
                  >
                  > My understanding (from many hours observing from the
                  > deck of a sailboat) is that the seabirds soar along
                  > the face of the waves using the updraft supplied by
                  > the forward speed of the wave combined with the wind.

                  Seabirds can do that of course; that's just simple 'ridge
                  soaring' with the wave as the ridge and the wave movement
                  substituting for wind (which is usually negligible so close
                  to the water) Heck, even us mere humans can do that given a
                  big enough wing, a big enough ridge and enough wind.
                  But the 'dynamic soaring' I referenced above is way more
                  involved and doesn't actually reguire a rising body of air.
                  Just a strong wind and a very large wind gradient (which in
                  the case of the ocean is often iaugmented close to the water
                  by the blocking effect of the waves - bird will use the lee
                  side of waves for dynamic soaring - not the windward side.)

                  Some adventurous aero-model fliers use the principle to soar
                  the downwind side of ridges where the air is not rising
                  at all - or even descending! ...
                  http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/dlstone/dsoar.htm

                  Steve T.
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